Questions

[Im_A]

Am I the only one that feels like this? Here I go.

I have been a Christian since I was 12, and now 22, turning 23. Ever since i first became a Christian, I have had this conflict in me. I would hear the term "God's Will" in doctrine/theology all the time. Then I go to another church, proclaiming that Jesus is the Savior and Died on the Cross for our sins and all that basic stuff, but yet their "theology" was totally different. Some things resembled each other, but a lot of things different. Then I would go to another church, and the same thing would happen. All the time I have always had this question in me. What is THE interpretation of God's Word in all reality?

Bring up a certain topic, then the one side would say, well this is what the Bible says and try to coach you to be sure your "scriptural." it's like god forbid us question things and it must be a bad thing to put our questions and hence our beliefs in our own words, just because we remember it better that way. Then talk about that same topic. I just realized that I am repeating myself, but sometimes repetition makes the point clearer (I hope.)

So it is odd for me personally, that after nearly 10 to 11 years of now of believeing in a belief, that this one thing I have not caught yet. I have heard the cliched' term of "Do not interpretate the Bible, let the Bible interpretate you", or, "Search the scriptures on that". Then when you do search the scriptures, pray about, then run on faith with what you have read, in the end, You have both sides ready. One side ready for support, then one side ready for the battle to change your "opinions." I appreciate all the support more than anyone knows, but I am tired of this cycle. Nothing is accomplished. Then one side will tell people, that they are being fooled by the spirit of the world, or that they are using your own logic to understand the scripture instead of the Holy Spirit. Some would even say, "Go and talk to your pastor about this." In the end, the word "truth" becomes shallow and very empty.

Another thing that seems to really play a role with interpretation of scripture is your family life. At least from what I have seen with people, those in a "strong" Christian family are usually indoctrinate in whatever denomination their family holds to. Not that I am attacking this by any means so please do not take it as that.

I do not how to say my current position on this. I have almost come to the conclusion that Christ is all that matters. I just think that theology is a proof of the progression of God, and it is something very important to our faith. I am at the conclusion of wanting no conclusions at all, and the only conclusion I have is that Christ is the Way, and everything is else up for change over time and when God sees fit, or if we ourselves see fit.

So here's a list of questions that if anyone wants to have a good talk with me about these questions, and I am surely willing to constantly be in dialogue when I can over these.

1. If it is true with "most" over than some Christians with a strong Christian family life, how is their interpretation within itself a true intrepretation of God's Word?

2. So I tend to ask those Christians with a strong, Christian background, what about those that don't?

3, What about the ones with family members struggled with things spiritually, but yet taught their kids to love and to possibly give Christianity a whirl and is their interpretation just as flawed as the family inspiried interpretation, or just as valid?

4. How can one really know the difference between two Christian's interpretations of the Word of God, when they can back opposing views with scripture, sometimes using the same scripture reference and yet still be sound advice?

5. is a pastor's opinion better than the people in the pews, just because they chose to follow either their emotions to serve God, or an actual spiritual calling from God, while the others are following their own call from God?

6. Does this utterly show the errancy of scripture, not because of scripture's sake, but because of humanity's interpretation of works written by God inspired people?

7. Does this mean that interpreations of the truth is dependant on person to person, and not a universal truth?
---"if that is true there, then wouldn't that show that the True Way is dependant on one's faith, and thus showing that there is no such thing as one way for humanity, and we'll just figure who's right after we die?"---

8. and my last question, does this show a crucial flaw in "modern" Christianity?
---if that is so, then where did we go wrong from Christ's true message?---

I must apologize for the 8 questions that may take a long time to answer each one but I figured I would post all the questions in the first place as a reference maybe we go through one question at a time, or if someone wants to write a long post, feel free too. i know you to read so it doesn't bother me. :) i also want to say something else before i end this.

this is probably the first time, i have really put my questions in technical format like this. meaning, the actual details of my questions and doubts with Christianity. I find it odd, that through this, I cannot look away from Jesus and my faith is growing because of my need for God. I do not give props to myself, only to God, but it still shocks me the power of God's prescense, and His prescense being evident without having butterflies in our stomachs and tinglies all over and without saying an "Amen!" I am putting these questions on the Liberal Church forum, because I believe I will be addressed in love, grace and truth and not be looked down upon, because I question and god forbid that I doubt because I am weak just as every other person. Plus I belive and hope that with the Liberal Church forum, I will get a wide variety of response, which will be very interesting for me (in a good way :) ). Plus, I am putting my faith in God with this time of questioning (meaning with "this time" is beyond me posting this), that I will have a renewed desire for the scriptures, than just what I know from studying it before.

May God Bless You all! <><

[Anthony]

The problem is man

Man over interprets the Bible in his feable attempt to make it reconcile with secular(what the world wants) thinking. And yes this includes Pastors, who for one thing want more people in their Church.

There is an over used phrase, "think outside of the box"; But for Christians we should "stay inside the box" or better "Stay inside the Bible". The basic message of the Bible is simple enough for a child to understand.

In the end Christians agree on the Major points, and can and do disagree on Minors.

[CaDan]

The problem is man

Man over interprets the Bible in his feable attempt to make it reconcile with secular(what the world wants) thinking. And yes this includes Pastors, who for one thing want more people in their Church.

There is an over used phrase, "think outside of the box"; But for Christians we should "stay inside the box" or better "Stay inside the Bible". The basic message of the Bible is simple enough for a child to understand.

In the end Christians agree on the Major points, and can and do disagree on Minors.

Whatever.

tattedsaint: This is what you need to read right now.
Mark Twain (http://blogs.salon.com/0001772/)

[McCravey]

Whatever.

tattedsaint: This is what you need to read right now.
Mark Twain (http://blogs.salon.com/0001772/)

After I read this issue of rlp I remembered a SS lesson I did one time, we should be such people that you can't tell where we end and Christ begins. It's interesting to see him use this in relationship with his fictional character rlp.

I loved Mark Twain's writing also. I am so backward.......and unread. :doh:

Thank you CaDan, please keep linking to stuff like this.

[Iosias]

4. How can one really know the difference between two Christian's interpretations of the Word of God, when they can back opposing views with scripture, sometimes using the same scripture reference and yet still be sound advice?

There is a very simple answer...Scripture is to be interpreted using a grammaticl-historical method. Once this method is applied consistently it is easy to discern between one view or another. The second part of the answer is that Satan sows tares to disrupt Christian doctrine. The Bible is the "word of truth" and truth is by definition exclusive. 1 + 1 = 2 it does not equal 3 or 4. Hence there is only one interpretation of scripture that is correct.

5. is a pastor's opinion better than the people in the pews, just because they chose to follow either their emotions to serve God, or an actual spiritual calling from God, while the others are following their own call from God?

In the church that I attend we do not have Pastors or Priests etc so I cannot answer this other than to say we are all capable of understanding the basics.

6. Does this utterly show the errancy of scripture, not because of scripture's sake, but because of humanity's interpretation of works written by God inspired people?

No...Scripture is truth however Satan attempts to decieve us by propagating false-doctrines within the church. However the Holy Ghost will illuminate scriture for us.

7. Does this mean that interpreations of the truth is dependant on person to person, and not a universal truth?

Nope...truth is exclusive 1 + 1 = 2 not 3 or 4 or 5.

8. and my last question, does this show a crucial flaw in "modern" Christianity?

No...it shows a flaw in Christians...who are more intent with defening a doctrine etc rather than approaching the issues openly without any preconcieved ideas.

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Erm - AV - can I point you to the forum specific rules here - http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8830002&postcount=1

Especial notice to the second rule 2 (yes, I know).

We don't go to the Fundamentalist forum to debate with you, please respect the demarcation and don't do the same here.

[CaDan]

There is a very simple answer...Scripture is to be interpreted using a grammaticl-historical method. Once this method is applied consistently it is easy to discern between one view or another. The second part of the answer is that Satan sows tares to disrupt Christian doctrine. The Bible is the "word of truth" and truth is by definition exclusive. 1 + 1 = 2 it does not equal 3 or 4. Hence there is only one interpretation of scripture that is correct.

Of course, those of us who try to use text and source criticism as well can reach some different conclusions!

Sometimes 1 + 1 = 10! :)

In the church that I attend we do not have Pastors or Priests etc so I cannot answer this other than to say we are all capable of understanding the basics.

Aye.

No...Scripture is truth however Satan attempts to decieve us by propagating false-doctrines within the church. However the Holy Ghost will illuminate scriture for us.

As will close readings and criticism.

No...it shows a flaw in Christians...who are more intent with defening a doctrine etc rather than approaching the issues openly without any preconcieved ideas.

Precisely.

[Iosias]

Erm - AV - can I point you to the forum specific rules here - http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8830002&postcount=1

Especial notice to the second rule 2 (yes, I know).

We don't go to the Fundamentalist forum to debate with you, please respect the demarcation and don't do the same here.Maybe you read:

2. This forum is open to ALL Christian members.
As for debating...


2. Non-liberal Christians are not allowed to debate in this forum.

and I have not been debating :)

[PaladinValer]

AV, you are deliberaly posting fundamentalist beliefs in a liberal/moderate forum. That isn't really allowed.

[Toney]

Nope...truth is exclusive 1 + 1 = 2 not 3 or 4 or 5.



I'm happy for you, AV. You've got it down pat. Unfortunately, I took a few philosophy classes so my gray matter is irreparably muddled. The truth is, I see shades of gray not simple blacks and whites. Well, not really. You know what I mean, I hope. Are there shades of white? What does whiter than white really mean, anyway? Sorry.

Please tell me, which of the following is the truth?

Immediately following the resurrection, Jesus appeared to:

a. Two women and eleven disciples.
b. One woman, two disciples and then later to eleven disciples.
c. Two women who hadn't the faintest idea who he was.

Now, if you say that b is true, therefore a and c are false, you know, lies. If so, what else were Matthew and Luke lying about?

You see, for me, all three statements are true since I do not hold the Bible to a 2+2=4 logical equivalence test.

[Iosias]

Please tell me, which of the following is the truth?
But for myself...if they are contained in Holy Scripture then all are true but are simply different accounts of different things that happened after the resurection. I think that some Christians misunderstand the grammatical-historical method of interpretation. For example...if you asked me what I did this morning I would say "I had breakfast" to another I may say "I washed my face" and no one is going to say that they are contradictory because indeed this morning I woke up, had breakfast and then washed my face. Your examples, if in scripture, follow a similar pattern :)


AV, you are deliberaly posting fundamentalist beliefs in a liberal/moderate forum. That isn't really allowed.

I will start a new thread to deal with this so that this thread does not get distracted.

[Toney]

But for myself...if they are contained in Holy Scripture then all are true but are simply different accounts of different things that happened after the resurection. I think that some Christians misunderstand the grammatical-historical method of interpretation.

Perhaps. My truth holds that these conflicting accounts have nothing whatsoever to do with linear history. We would agree, I hope, that there is more than one valid method used to interpret the Bible.

[Im_A]

well the result happened as i thought it would. if you all can just keep me in your prayers. i really feel like i am losing some of my faith anymore, yet i am convinced that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. yet the confliction in me still remains. i hear all the arguments that it is man's problem of interpretating scriptures wrong, and i have heard that is sin and the devil's influecne that skew our understanding God. yet, there are so many people from conservative to liberal that differ on so many views of God and Jesus, yet their hearts and spirit are convinced in the same God, and the same spirit that we as Christians believe in. how does that show the truth of so called, "TRUTH". in the end i am reminded of two verses. one the verse that talks about, "Do not burden your brother with your freedom", and two Philippians 2:12:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

in all reality, i just feel like giving up on my search to know about these questions i have in me, and just stay focused on showing the love and grace Christ showed to us. Christ Himself said, "They will know you by your love." He never said that they will know us by our doctrines or theologies. sometimes the epistles just seem to show us good things to do as a Christian, but it also seems like a historical account of how the Church started and the times it was written in, and nothing more. now i say that with no conclusion or thought that i am right or wrong about, that is just a curiosity of mine, that is all. plus, this search is tiring and sometimes we need to stop for a rest, hehe.

i still appreciate all the responses, and as the thread continues on, if any wishes to keep me in prayer that i don't lose my faith as others have in this search, it would be greatly appreciated from me. May God Bless you all!

[Treasure the Questions]

:hug: tattedsaint. Hold on to Jesus. I went through a phase a few years ago when I felt that my faith was mostly built on lies that had been fed me and it was a very bad time.

I'm not sure now that is was entirely lies, but sometimes people don't want to face up to what Jesus really said about the radical changes we all need to make in our lives, so they water the message down. Sometimes they feed us certainty when things aren't as certain as all that. Others seem to want to hold on to the Old Testament and neglect God's grace or the fact that fulfilling the Law and the Prophets means we are no longer to be concerned with petty rules but with God's principles of love and grace that should undergird all that we do: Love your God with everything that you are, and love your neighbour as much as you love yourself.

Keep looking at Jesus tattedsaint, and ask yourself if he would have said or done whatever it is. That's the best benchmark I can think of. Keep praying for a better understanding of all that Jesus said and did, too.

I'll pray that for you as well.:)

Karin

[Duggie]

[tattedsaint]well the result happened as i thought it would. if you all can just keep me in your prayers. i really feel like i am losing some of my faith anymore, yet i am convinced that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. yet the confliction in me still remains. i hear all the arguments that it is man's problem of interpretating scriptures wrong, and i have heard that is sin and the devil's influecne that skew our understanding God. yet, there are so many people from conservative to liberal that differ on so many views of God and Jesus, yet their hearts and spirit are convinced in the same God, and the same spirit that we as Christians believe in. how does that show the truth of so called, "TRUTH". in the end i am reminded of two verses. one the verse that talks about, "Do not burden your brother with your freedom", and two Philippians 2:12:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

in all reality, i just feel like giving up on my search to know about these questions i have in me, and just stay focused on showing the love and grace Christ showed to us. Christ Himself said, "They will know you by your love." He never said that they will know us by our doctrines or theologies. sometimes the epistles just seem to show us good things to do as a Christian, but it also seems like a historical account of how the Church started and the times it was written in, and nothing more. now i say that with no conclusion or thought that i am right or wrong about, that is just a curiosity of mine, that is all. plus, this search is tiring and sometimes we need to stop for a rest, hehe.

i still appreciate all the responses, and as the thread continues on, if any wishes to keep me in prayer that i don't lose my faith as others have in this search, it would be greatly appreciated from me. May God Bless you all!
Your in my prayers brother...
I also went through a period of inner conflicts regarding interpretations, gifts of the Holy Spirit, sins etc... I was forever searching and asking questions and in the end I came to the conclusion that my answers lie in Jesus. I know that might sound corny and a bit of a cliche but it's true. I still have the same questions and many still remain unanswered, but that's only because I've stopped asking. Now I'm not suggesting you don't search out the answers to your questions, but I would suggest and encourage you to place your trust in God and allow His peace to manifest in your heart. I think sometimes we can over-complicate things and God is not confusing, nor does He confuse. I'm far from qualified to give you the right answer my friend, all I can do is encourage you to ask God and just let the Holy Spirit lead you. God loves you more than you know and my prayer is that you come to this place of peace in your heart. :)

[Im_A]

thanks guys. that's the same exact thing i have come to in my own life. that the answer lies in Jesus. it is a cliched' statement to me, just because i have used it in every sense that the statement can be used. but like i was telling my one friend last night, i felt like at times the closer i try to understand God, the more i feel my faith slipping away, but in the end it is just thoughts because i cannot give up my faith in Jesus. i have tried before, and for some reason, i just cannot give it up. plus i have to remember i have been stressed out too here lately. just things going on in my life, and since i have made the choice to really seek out these questions, then going with the judgements i receive from time to time because of certain beliefs i hold dear and my appearance, it is just the mix everything and sometimes waving the white flag just seems to be the right thing to do.

yet everytime i come down to this (which means this isn't the first time this has happened for me) i have a peace in my heart that i am just fine. a peace that i just need to keep going, no matter what comes what may. i don't believe that shows any on my part, but it shows a lot on the part of God.

like what treasure the questions said, i too feel at times that i have been fed a bunch of lies from some of the church folk. some of the stuff i have heard, just doesn't seem realistic. in the end it isn't lies, it is just certainties, and it is just stuff for them that works for them, but it may not work for every other Christian out there. and the theology issues, i am just starting to finally realize what Christ said. Christ said, "They will know us by our love." He never said, they will know us by our doctrines. that just shows a lot more to me than having to have the right doctrine or theology, for all that is man made.

i still appreciate the responses to this thread and still plan on continue to reply to it when i see fit, and still see the responses. i also have a post similiar posted on the ministry's forum that i attend to when i can, and i have a link going back to CF and explained how to get there for anyone that deals with the same thing as me and just wanting to see what others have responded with.

May God Bless you all! <><

[muffler dragon]

Just to let you know, tatted, my foundation has been rocked more in the past 1/2 year than any other time. I feel like my depth of seeing more of G-d has grown, but my understanding has dropped off considerably. Agnosticism (having no knowledge) has become rampant in a great deal of my answers to questions. Furthermore, my faith in G-d has grown, but a lot of my general beliefs have changed. Toney knows some of what I am talking about. But I just wanted to put this forth so that you know from me (among others) that you are not alone.

m.d.

[McCravey]

The closer I get to the understanding I'm after, the less I know.
I don't know Him as well as I would like.
I know myself even less.....I'm searching to know him and myself....(to know him is to know myself....hmmm...(McCravey thinking out loud))

As my faith gets stronger it seems to get weaker and shakes me up.

But for some crazy reason I think I'm heading in the right direction!

[Im_A]

this is really great everyone. i thank you all so much.

it's just very new to me. my faith started in a very conservative mindset. which to me basically means that you have everything set, and everything is great. you know the answers and so on. i became a Christian when i was 12. then to when i was 18, i should have seen my foundation falling, because my family life was sometimes a wreck and it was only due to my mother and God that i am here today, then to questions of theolgy that i still have, i should have known that my foundation was going to fall. at the same time, i always put on the mask that i knew it all. i used to be that self-righteous prick that non-christians complain about.

then i made a pretty big mistake, and the truth came out, that i was not as set as i thought i was. from then on, i have made many mistakes, and now coming to a maturer person with who i am. then over time, with the mix of people complaining about some of the things i view, then to others like me there just has always remained a conflict. philippians 2:12 is probably now my new favorite verse.

and now today, i see myself changed so much then when i first became a Christian. i have so much love for the non-Christians out there, that some think i am getting into a secular religion, which is farthest from the truth. it is almost like my eyes have been opened to Christ's specific words. i am slowly getting away from the questions i have, and getting my life in order, and somehow get the things i want, like the love of my life, get out of debt that i am in, get my struggles with alcohol under control, (which is the biggest issue with me here lately, due to the fact this weekend i have to a weekend long class that is called, "D.I.P." Driver Intervention Program. you can figure out the rest there), and just keep on working at my job, get my own place again, keep on this track with my spiritual life, of just showing the love and grace that Christ showed on the cross, and seek my questions as i am seeking with no conclusions but possibilities and possible understanding. like it was said, no matter how new this is to me, and no matter where i came from, for some crazy reason, i feel i am finally on the right path.

[ladybrett1974]

We all struggle with these questions. I think probably even the people who say they don't....do. In my humble opinion, you're on the right track...and I'm right there next to you.:wave: :thumbsup: :amen:

[apenman]

So here's a list of questions that if anyone wants to have a good talk with me about these questions, and I am surely willing to constantly be in dialogue when I can over these.

1. If it is true with "most" over than some Christians with a strong Christian family life, how is their interpretation within itself a true intrepretation of God's Word?

I don't know that we should assume that it is a true interpretation. so many Christians are into religion, which can be very separate from salvation. They have a religious understanding of the Bible, but if they reach a religious conclusion, they have not understood.


2. So I tend to ask those Christians with a strong, Christian background, what about those that don't?

If anyone has a crazy or wierd theology, head for the hills. Why waste your time with that?


3, What about the ones with family members struggled with things spiritually, but yet taught their kids to love and to possibly give Christianity a whirl and is their interpretation just as flawed as the family inspiried interpretation, or just as valid?

They may be saying, give religion a whirl, and this is where they may have gone wrong themselves.


4. How can one really know the difference between two Christian's interpretations of the Word of God, when they can back opposing views with scripture, sometimes using the same scripture reference and yet still be sound advice?

Any point of view should be able to withstand scrutiny. This forum is a great place to put a theology to the test because there are so many smart people here. It isn't enough to have just a few scriptures to support an arguement, and if that's all one has, this forum will make short work of it.


5. is a pastor's opinion better than the people in the pews, just because they chose to follow either their emotions to serve God, or an actual spiritual calling from God, while the others are following their own call from God?

Entirely depends on the pastor, some know their stuff, many do not.


6. Does this utterly show the errancy of scripture, not because of scripture's sake, but because of humanity's interpretation of works written by God inspired people?

No, it is the glory of God to conceal a matter. The Bible is difficult to understand by design. It is 100% intentional.


7. Does this mean that interpreations of the truth is dependant on person to person, and not a universal truth?
---"if that is true there, then wouldn't that show that the True Way is dependant on one's faith, and thus showing that there is no such thing as one way for humanity, and we'll just figure who's right after we die?"---

This is why, in the end, it all comes down to an issue of faith, rather than beliefs. We may all have different beliefs, but in the end it is the quality of our faith that matters. It's only if we examine faith, apart from religion, that we can get to universal truth.


8. and my last question, does this show a crucial flaw in "modern" Christianity?
---if that is so, then where did we go wrong from Christ's true message?---

We missed the law of Christ, and ended up in the mirey bog of religion. Ran head first and jumped right in, we did. If a proper understanding of the law of Christ ever finds its way into religious theologies, they will cease to be religious theologies.