So You Lutheran?? [Archive] - Christian Forums

tigersnare

1st February 2004, 10:39 PM

So for some strange reason I woke up and decided to go to the Lutheran Church here on campus. I normally go to a big, rock star band praise and worship, non-denom Church.

So I walk in, here's what I see.....the most "Mass" resembling Protestant service I've ever been too. The Pastor even wore the same stuff I've seen Catholic Priest wear.

Somewhere after a group confession of sins, he said, "as an ordained.....I forgive your sins".... that was a little different for me.

Also the wine looked clear.....anybody know what that was about?

I did enjoy the very traditional service though, the Creed, and prayers and hymes. It was a nice change.

The kicker though...

I'm trying to sneak out the door, but Pastor catches me....after alittle small talk he's like, "So you Lutheran!?"...I"m like no...he's like...oh....well that's OK...thanks for visiting. HAHAHAHA "well that's Ok"..Hahaha :D

That was golden....

Seriously though, what is difference about the Catholic "Mass" and the Lutheran service? Also, why does he forgive my sins?

Thanks guys

Phoebe

2nd February 2004, 12:24 AM

ROTFLOL!

You might get more Mass- like if you go to an Episcopal service.

Off hand, do remember if it was an ELCA or LCMS church? What color was the big hymnal?

We are called Catholic- lite for a reason. All the forgiveness with half the guilt. ;)

When it comes to the confession, we have what is called 'the Office of the Keys.' The pastor is a called and ordained minister in the church of Christ. He has the ability to pronounce your sins forgiven by Christ's authority. That means he speaks audibly on Christ's/ God's behalf. The pastor is not the one doing the actual forgiving. But because what we loose(forgive) on earth is loosed in heaven, and what we bind(do not forgive) on earth is bound in heaven, we can be compelled to declare forgiveness. (as a priesthood of believers)

As far as clear wine, this congregation probably used grape juice. Most congregations will provide both wine and grapejuice. We have grapejuice in the center of the tray, and use red wine in the outer rings of the tray.

I don't know exactly why the minister chuckled. Maybe it was obvious in your demeanor that you weren't familiar with the Lutheran liturgy.

One of the differences between Mass and Lutheran is that you won't find the wine witheld from Lutheran laity.
The Lord's Prayer recited in the Lutheran church is the longer version. (Catholics stop with 'but deliver us from evil.'
The Lutheran church teaches that we are saved by faith. (in Jesus)
There are more, and I will let my Lutheran brethren come along and answer more of this. :)

Acceptance

2nd February 2004, 01:48 AM

The Lutheran church teaches that we are saved by faith. (in Jesus)
The Catholic church teaches this too:) You're right, the two are very similar (Martin Luther was after all, originally, a Catholic priest;) )

Blessings
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_32.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

theologia crucis

2nd February 2004, 01:52 AM

Phoebe did a fine job covering the differences.

Most Lutheran pastors still wear traditional robes, and some even change into vestments before Holy Communion.

Phoebe does a fine job describing the Office of the Keys. Along with that, the pastor is pronouncing the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he prounounces absolution of sins by Christ's authority (for Lutherans, forgiveness is a condition, not an act; by grace alone through faith alone for Christ's sake, we are justified freely by God, and since we are justified, our sins are forgiven, absolution is another pronouncement of that fact).

Here's two ways absolution is declared (from the LBW [green book]):

Almighty God, in his mercy, has given his Son to die for us and, for his sake God forgives us all our sins. As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

or

In the mercy of almighty God, Jesus Christ was given to die for you, and for his sake God forgives you all your sins. To those who believe in Jesus Christ he gives the power to become the children of God and bestows on them the Holy Spirit

I forget how it is pronounced in the LCMS, but it is very similar.

Another difference between Lutheran and Catholic services is that you will find no reference to a sacrifice on our part during the Words of Institution. I believe Roman Catholics call it the Words of Consecration, but I might be wrong.

theologia crucis

2nd February 2004, 02:03 AM

Acceptance,

I'm not trying to pick a fight, because I'm about to go to bed, but unfortunately, Lutherans and Roman Catholics may both say we teach salvation by faith in Christ, but if one looks at the definitions of all the words and doctrines involved, they are radically different, and mutually exclusive.

For instance, compare the two doctrines of original sin or grace (gratia infusa (RCC) vs. gratuitis Dei favor (Lutheran)). Those two doctrines alone affect every other one: freedom of the will, conversion (the bestowal of faith), faith, justification, sanctification, the Sacraments, the church, election, eschatology, etc., and I'm barely scratching the surface.

However, we both agree on the Trinity, and that's a good starting place. And that Jesus Christ is Savior, the best starting place.

Oh, if you want to compare our two teachings, compare the Formula of Concord to the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. A lot of Lutherans and Catholics will be shocked to see how different we are, despite JDDJ, which is a very weak document.

tigersnare

2nd February 2004, 02:05 AM

I don't know exactly why the minister chuckled. Maybe it was obvious in your demeanor that you weren't familiar with the Lutheran liturgy.

I should have specified, that was me laughing histerically when he said, "Well...that's OK". As opposed to...that's totally not cool man, you need to trade up and get with the program...or something. :D

JVAC

2nd February 2004, 05:38 AM

Something I not when I got to Mass at a Catholic Church, they don't ever finish the hymns. But really there isn't all that much difference. Let me see if I can clear up some confusion:

The Introit of the services are the same (That is the processionary entrance). With a hymn. (Lutherans light altar candles)
Then we both begin in the Name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost
The Lutheran Church will then do confession, whereas in the RC it is thought of that you already did it.
Then both Masses proceed with the Kyrie, and the Gloria in Excelsis.
Thereafter, the first collect (prayer) is said.
Then the Lutheran Church does prayer concerns and maybe a choir anthem
Then the a reading from the prophet is lectored
A psalm is read or sung
A reading from an Epistle
The Gospel of the Lord is read (both churches will say the "Glory to you, O Lord" and the "Praise to you, O Christ"; yet the Lutheran church sings the "Lord to whom shall we go")
After the Gospel the Lutheran Church will sing more
After which, the Sermon is had in the Lutheran Church and the Homily in the Catholic
The Lutheran Church will sing even more
Then the profession of faith (creeds)
An offering is taken (the Lutheran Church sings yet even more)
The elements are uncovered on the Altar or brought forth
The Verba is said
Sanctus/Benidictus qui venit are sung
Lord's prayer is said (In the Lutheran Church with the Thine is the kingdom..., however, the Catholic church does it too, but differently still.)
Pax (the lord's peace)
Communing (Both churches with both species if so desired) (Singing again)
Final Collect
Salutation
Benedicamus
Benediction (MORE SINGING!)
Now in the Catholic Liturgy there is some more differentiation in the process of the Verba, I dont' understand that too well yet.

Also the end result is different, the Catholic church transubstanciates the elements, whereas the Lutheran Church has a Real Pressence of Christ in the Elements.

Luther only resolved the abuses in the Mass, but he kept the Mass, for the Mass is a sacred and very spiritual tool! There are few differences indeed. Yet the Lutheran Mass only happens on Sunday, midweek services etc. are all different. Festival Days might have a Mass too, but it gets complex.

Also, the Lutheran Church sings way more. We even have musical settings for the Verba, and the Prayers (collects and Lord's).

Cary.Melvin

2nd February 2004, 08:45 AM

ROTFLOL!

One of the differences between Mass and Lutheran is that you won't find the wine witheld from Lutheran laity.
I don't think that I have ever had the blood of Christ withheld at a Sunday Mass. At daily Mass they usally only offer the Body of Christ at our Parish.

BeanMak

2nd February 2004, 09:50 AM

I so miss the Liturgy now that I attend an Evangelical Free Church

http://www.lutheran-hymnal.com/online/page5.html

JVAC

2nd February 2004, 01:25 PM

I don't think that I have ever had the blood of Christ withheld at a Sunday Mass. At daily Mass they usally only offer the Body of Christ at our Parish.
However the Catholic Church does teach that one can be fully communed with just one species. A great many I see don't take the blood, yet, it is offered as you point out. The main point is, it wasn't when Luther split also, that both species constitutes a full communion. However, the reforms to the Catholic Mass have been extensive since the split, they have become quite Lutheran in thier worship with regards to Common Language, Hymns, both species, etc.

ByzantineDixie

2nd February 2004, 03:34 PM

Seriously though, what is difference about the Catholic "Mass" and the Lutheran service?

While there are many significant theological differences between Roman Catholics and Lutherans...I think these are not readily apparent in the liturgy alone. You'd have to look very critically at the nuances to unearth the things of significance.

For example...when the Catholics congregation pronouces at the preparation of the altar "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his Church." This might go right past a person...but this refers to what theologia crucis identified as the re-sacrifice of Christ...which Catholics believe and Lutherans do not. And the whole transubstantiation thing is not at all transparent in the liturgy alone.

The Catholics do offer a confession of sorts (penitential rite) at the beginning of the mass (just before the Liturgy of the Word) and the priest does say "May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life." but I do not know if this counts as absolution. The Lutheran aspect of this has already explained. Again...on the surface...they both look pretty much the same.

IMHO, I think the significant differences for the most part lie below the surface of the liturgy.

I am glad you liked the liturgy...I think I would miss it if I never had any more exposure to it but I find it difficult to concentrate on the words each Sunday to keep the service meaningful. Sometimes, since the words have long been committed to memory, the words want to run out of my mouth bypassing my brain and I start thinking about other things.

Peace
Rose

tigersnare

2nd February 2004, 03:51 PM

I need to sit down with a Lutheran Pastor and find out what they believe....I like keeping the traditions, but I definatly agree with the way the Westminister speaks about Justification and Elect(very small knowledge and understanding at this point), more so then my scimming through the Catachism.

Then again, I need to study the bible, the Westminister, and the Catachism, and decided for my self which one portrays what I believe the bible says.....babe in Christ here! :wave:

karen_UK

2nd February 2004, 04:58 PM

What is the Westminister?

tigersnare

2nd February 2004, 07:04 PM

What is the Westminister?

A couple links perhaps..

http://www.pcea.asn.au/trip_wcf.html (after the introductory they give some background on the confession).

http://www.pcea.asn.au/trip_wcf.html (scroll down to it, then you can read the actual confession)

Acceptance

2nd February 2004, 07:23 PM

Phoebe

2nd February 2004, 09:00 PM

ByzantineDixie

2nd February 2004, 10:03 PM

Tiger...in addition to Phoebe's recommendations you might also check out the following link to learn more.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/smallcatechism.pdf

Peace

Rose

theologia crucis

2nd February 2004, 10:06 PM

EEEEP! :sorry: I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I didn't mean to say anything to cause a tiff.

Yes, I know there are differences in the theology between Lutherans and Catholics :( (I wish we were united SO! badly). I only wanted to clarify that Catholics do believe that faith in Christ saves you, as well as emphasize that there's a reason the OP saw similarities between the two churches.

Peace in Christ!

My bad. I didn't mean to hijack the thread. And if anyone said anything to cause a tiff, it was me.

I too, wish ALL Christians were truly united.

And, our liturgies (Lutheran and Catholic) are really quite close, overall. There's a section somewhere in Luther's Table Talk (if I remember right) that says that there was a Catholic visitor to Wittenberg in the 1530's, and the visitor couldn't tell the difference between the Lutheran service and a Catholic one! And that's still relatively true today!

However, I was hoping to pique someone (anyone!) into realizing the big differences between the two (and others as well), and maybe get somebody thinking on how to solve them. I sure can't figure out how to! Catholics aren't going to budge one inch of Trent or the Vatican counsels (or any of the other doctrinal statements) anytime soon, and confessional Lutherans aren't going to give up one sentence of the Book of Concord, either!

tigersnare,

You can find the Large Catechism (as well as all of the Lutheran confessions) here: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=522

or here: www.bookofconcord.org

That could save you a buck or two! (Not to take any money away from CPH or Augsburg Fortress!!!)

The Large Catechism is a great place to start, as is the Augsburg Confession or the Epitome of the Formula of Concord. They're all relatively short and concise and easy to understand.

I'll go back into hiding now...

Acceptance

2nd February 2004, 10:56 PM

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_218.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) I'm glad you all are so understanding -- sorry about the confusion:)

Phoebe

2nd February 2004, 11:05 PM

Ahem!!!

www.elca.org (http://www.elca.org) is the site for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. (Norwegian)

theologia crucis

2nd February 2004, 11:32 PM

Calm down! I just knew two quick ways of getting to the Lutheran confessions. I haven't searched www.elca.org in a while to see where y'all have 'em posted...

I bet www.wels.net has 'em somewhere, too! I don't want to short change our Wisconsin brethren!

And they're also here: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luther.html#sw-lc

Phoebe

2nd February 2004, 11:35 PM

Calm down! I just knew two quick ways of getting to the Lutheran confessions. I haven't searched www.elca.org (http://www.elca.org/) in a while to see where y'all have 'em posted...

I bet www.wels.net (http://www.wels.net/) has 'em somewhere, too! I don't want to short change our Wisconsin brethren!

And they're also here: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luther.html#sw-lc
:kiss: :hug:

Filia Mariae

2nd February 2004, 11:46 PM

One of the differences between Mass and Lutheran is that you won't find the wine witheld from Lutheran laity.

Nor is it witheld from the Catholic laity.

The Lord's Prayer recited in the Lutheran church is the longer version. (Catholics stop with 'but deliver us from evil.'
No we don't, we pause for the priest to recite a short prayer and then conclude with the rest of the Our Father.

Phoebe

3rd February 2004, 11:11 AM

No we don't, we pause for the priest to recite a short prayer and then conclude with the rest of the Our Father.Really? I don't remember that.

Go back one page. I admitted to my being wrong about the Communion.

Flipper

3rd February 2004, 11:21 AM

Carly is right. At least that's how I remember saying it when I was Catholic.

When the Methodists say the Lord's Prayer, they say it the same as Lutherans, but they break the sentences in different places. When I go to my husband's former church (where the in-laws go), I just don't say anything at the end of it, or I will embarass myself.

Re the OP: I go to one of the few LCMS churches that has all contemporary services. The Pastor doesn't even wear robes (anymore, he used to). We have a rock band style praise team (pastor plays lead guitar) and most of the music is popular contemporary Christian. However, we do traditional hymns once in a while, and sometimes, they are rocked up to more contemporary music, giving it a whole new spin. There's also three services on Sunday and the smallest service has over 400 people.

Kim (Phoebe) visited it once at the smaller service and I think it freaked her out.

Phoebe

3rd February 2004, 11:23 AM

I freak out easily. :P

My memory must be shot. I don't even remember finishing the prayer in RCIA, and it isn't printed with the rosary instructions.

ByzantineDixie

3rd February 2004, 01:15 PM

Nah, your memory is not shot yet (give it a few years though and some kind of cruel pre-menopausal thing happens--they tell me it goes away but I don't know how much time I'll get from the time it disappears and senility sets it!!!)

In the RCC the Lord's Prayer for things like the rosary and general prayer does stop before "for thine is....", but during the mass the priest says something after "deliver us from evil" and the congregational response is on the order of "for the kingdom and the power and the glory are yours, now and forever".

Since my brother and his family have stayed in the RCC...I get a chance to worship with them periodically and I ALWAYS mess up by going on ahead...then, of course, I fell like there is this flashing sign over my head saying "token protestant here"!

What is RCIA?

Rose

Filia Mariae

3rd February 2004, 01:20 PM

"May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his Church." This might go right past a person...but this refers to what theologia crucis identified as the re-sacrifice of Christ...which Catholics believe and Lutherans do not. And the whole transubstantiation thing is not at all transparent in the liturgy alone.

Catholics do NOT believe that Jesus is re-sacrificed in the Eucharist. Please, if you do not know what we believe do not attempt to explain it to others.

What is RCIA?Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. It is the way adults are brought into the Church.

I can eat 50 eggs

3rd February 2004, 01:35 PM

ROTFLOL!

One of the differences between Mass and Lutheran is that you won't find the wine witheld from Lutheran laity.
The Lord's Prayer recited in the Lutheran church is the longer version. (Catholics stop with 'but deliver us from evil.'
The Lutheran church teaches that we are saved by faith. (in Jesus)
There are more, and I will let my Lutheran brethren come along and answer more of this. :)you won't find the wine withheld in the RCC church either!

And the the Catholics finish the Lord's prayer , just with an interuption in between.

I can eat 50 eggs

3rd February 2004, 01:55 PM

oh geez, I thought I might have something to add, but I see TC is on this thread, and he always knows more than me!

ByzantineDixie

3rd February 2004, 02:27 PM

Catholics do NOT believe that Jesus is re-sacrificed in the Eucharist. Please, if you do not know what we believe do not attempt to explain it to others.

Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. It is the way adults are brought into the Church.

Please know I had no intention of typing an inaccuracy or misleading anyone. I have to admit I defaulted to a teaching I once heard on the subject (which surprised me at the time because I spent 30 years in the RCC and never heard such a thing!). I have since done some additional study and realize "re-" was an inappropriate modifier.

Carly...as I indicated I grew up in the Catholic church, 8 years of Catholic grade school, played my guitar for folk masses in the 70's, and periodically I still try to get in a Life Teen mass every now and then. I may not always get things right when I type about the Catholic church but I have some very valid history, experiences and memories (as best as that works these days!!!) that on occasion may be appropriate to post. I will do my best to be completely accurate but I may make mistakes. I welcome a gentle hand of correction but not censorship. Deal?

Christ's Peace

Rose

Filia Mariae

3rd February 2004, 05:37 PM

Rose,

I realize your intent was not to be deceitful, and I sincerely apologize if my post implied that.

This particular issue is sensitive because time and time again anti-Catholic sources claim we believe that we "re-sacrifice" Jesus in the Mass, when in fact we proclaim the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus for our salvation.

Again, I apologize if I made it seem like I thought your mistake was intentional.

:pray:

GlowingFirefly

3rd February 2004, 06:20 PM

Also the wine looked clear.....anybody know what that was about?

Most Lutheran churches that I know of (at least mine does) serves two drinks at communion, wine and grape juice. It sounds to me like you saw the grape juice. It's just for people who can't have wine or prefer something else. For me the alcohol burns my chest so I take grape juice. No biggy, just thought I'd throw that in. :)