Do you drink alcohol?

[JM]

I've never come in contact with any Baptists who will admit to drinking alcohol, I have a hard time understanding this aspect of our faith. Most Baptists tend to use a literal interpretation of Scriptures, but will not drink anything fermented...why is that?

[Melly Monster]

Ummm I drink on special occasions, like my anniversery or shampain at a wedding something like that.

[caitlincares]

Never ever had alcohol except what is in NyQuil. Use that very rarely.

And for someone who has never had alcohol NyQuil works well.
Out pretty quick. No resistance built up. :D

Galatians 5:19-21

[JM]

I cann't understand why Baptists don't use wine during the Lord's supper, why the grape juice? I've asked this before and was never given a 'real' Biblical answer, it seems it's a Baptist tradition.

sp

[caitlincares]

I cann't understand why Baptists don't use wine during the Lord's supper, why the grape juice? I've asked this before and was never given a 'real' Biblical answer, it seems it's a Baptist tradition.

spWhy do you want it to be wine?

Remember children partake of it.

And we all know you should never do anything to be a stumbling block to others.
SO what about others in the congregation that may be recovering alcoholics.

[BBAS 64]

I've never come in contact with any Baptists who will admit to drinking alcohol, I have a hard time understanding this aspect of our faith. Most Baptists tend to use a literal interpretation of Scriptures, but will not drink anything fermented...why is that?
Good Day, Sp

Well now you are in contact with one, I do enjoy the finer aspects of wines and beers. I can see how this may be a problem for some weather they be a baptist or not. There are some people who can by lead down a path way of serious problems if they were to partake of alcohol, I must respect and be mind full that.

It is kind of like Spurgeon and his love of fine cigars.

Peace to u,

Bill

[JM]

Why do you want it to be wine?

Remember children partake of it.

And we all know you should never do anything to be a stumbling block to others.
SO what about others in the congregation that may be recovering alcoholics.
I don't 'want' it to be wine unless that is more in line with what Scripture has to say and I believe Scripture is clear on the matter of what is being used by the apostles and Jesus Christ himself. Some claim that Jew's didn't drink wine, but the historical record shows Jews did drink wine, it was a form of kosher wine. Why do you want it not to be wine?

Children partake of it, sure, but aren't children aloud to partake of redemption? Is the Lord's supper not a symbol of this communion?

This final point (IMO) is the only point that may be considered valid. But should it prohibit the use of alcohol in general? I don't belief so.

sp

[JM]

Good Day, Sp

Well now you are in contact with one, I do enjoy the finer aspects of wines and beers. I can see how this may be a problem for some weather they be a baptist or not. There are some people who can by lead down a path way of serious problems if they were to partake of alcohol, I must respect and be mind full that.

It is kind of like Spurgeon and his love of fine cigars.

Peace to u,

Bill
I too enjoy a drink, a glass or two of gin(eva ;) ) after a long day. I'm not a fan of cigars, they tend to disrupt the harmony of those around them. I never really gave it a thought until a fellow baptist said one day, 'you don't drink if you're a good baptist.'

[LuxPerpetua]

My family are strict Southern Baptists and no one drinks and they feel it is sinful to drink (their words exactly). I am now Lutheran and neither I nor my husband drink simply because we do not like the taste of alcohol nor do we like to support the liquor industry, which we feel is rather seedy. The only time we consume alcohol is at communion in church. There is a thread that I started down below which may be helpful to you in understanding the Baptist take on alcohol in communion. The thread title is something like "Alcohol and Dancing." There are some good insights there. :)

[Kristi1]

I don't drink at all... I do not like the tatse of Beer or Alcohol... yuckie.. :eek:

[GreenEyedLady]

http://www.christianforums.com/t888317

There is already a thread on this topic. Verses have been provided in the thread.
GEL

[JM]

Thanks for the heads up.

I noticed the reformed church doesn't have a general restriction against drinking alcohol, against drunkness sure, but it seems like a modern tradition not to drink.

[Iollain]

I can't drink cause if i have a few i'll get on the redneck side and have more and more and more, and more.....and more. However i do make a blackberry cordial out of brandy, sugar, and blackberries that is to be drank out ofa tiny glass which i'll have when i'm cold in the winter, not often at all, you can't have more than a little of this as it is thick and sweet. I don't mind a glass of wine at a special dinner though, i can handle that.
I could not with a good conscience serve real wine if i was a pastor, may cause someone to stumble.

[@@Paul@@]

I'm a Baptist, and oh man do i like Gin (in moderation of course).

:lol:
1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

If you're gonna say alcohol is wrong, you'd better stop eating shellfish. ;)

[Cright]

I do drink.

I had a 1/2 glass of sparkling wine after my sister got married and a glass during the reception.

I have a glass of wine usually new year's and I'll have a drink on other special occasions, and once in a blue moon I might even have one for dessert (mudslide - it's vanilla ice cream w/ chocolate and irish cream liquor).

I don't offer up info that I drink to people, I don't want it be a stumbling block to others that might have a problem in that area.. but if someone asks I am honest about it.

Carina

[Melly Monster]

I can't drink cause if i have a few i'll get on the redneck side and have more and more and more, and more.....and more. However i do make a blackberry cordial out of brandy, sugar, and blackberries that is to be drank out ofa tiny glass which i'll have when i'm cold in the winter, not often at all, you can't have more than a little of this as it is thick and sweet. I don't mind a glass of wine at a special dinner though, i can handle that.
I could not with a good conscience serve real wine if i was a pastor, may cause someone to stumble.

Are you saying there is something wrong with being a Redneck;) hehe. If you seen my town you would be like :eek: hick town lol.

[moeowo]

I don't drink only because I can't stand the after taste that's left in your mouth after drinking it...:sick::sick::sick:

[kayanne]

I occasionally have a glass of wine with my husband. His cardiologist recommended that he drink a few ounces of red wine every night (he had a near fatal heart attack at age 35, and studies show that red wine helps the heart).

Like someone else said, I don't talk about the fact that we have wine, since it could be a stumbling block to some people, and since so many people seem to think it's a sin. Not that I'm ashamed of it, but it gets under my skin when someone judges me for doing something that Jesus Himself did.

[@@Paul@@]

I don't drink only because I can't stand the after taste that's left in your mouth after drinking it...:sick::sick::sick:
You must add just one lime. ;)

[Gerry_NY]

I may have a glass of wine on a special occasion...which for us is usually just our wedding anniversary. Our pastor preaches against drinking any alcohol at all. But, I myself have only read not to be drunk, and nothing in excess. SO, I feel as long as one doesn't overindulge...a glass of wine once a year isn't a sin.

[Iollain]

Are you saying there is something wrong with being a Redneck;) hehe. If you seen my town you would be like :eek: hick town lol.
LOL, oh no, i like Rednecks, we have a hick town here too.

I don't like to mention drinking either incase it is a stumbling block for some, i've saw it tear down more than a couple of lives.

[Matthan]

On a hot day, after hard work, I'll partake of a cold beer. Never (almost) more than one, though. I am a retired cop, and drunk drivers are my pet peave. It's sort of funny that I live in the middle of (New York's) wine country, and I really do not like the stuff.

On a funnier note, I had an uncle in NC (where my family is from) who was raised SB, and he had a very active still. He made a good living off of that contraption, too. Never did get caught. But, just before his death, the feds came to him and begged him to get a license to make ethanol. They couldn't catch him, so they got him to become legal another way.

Matthan

[ufonium2]

Like someone else said, I don't talk about the fact that we have wine, since it could be a stumbling block to some people, and since so many people seem to think it's a sin. Not that I'm ashamed of it, but it gets under my skin when someone judges me for doing something that Jesus Himself did.
The Shakers thought sex was a sin, even in marriage. There are groups that think cutting your hair is a sin, that drinking caffiene is a sin, that chewing gum is a sin, etc. If you stopped doing everything that somebody else considers a sin, you would starve and be really, really bored.

[GreenEyedLady]

God gave me the conviction not to drink though his Word.
I refuse to even take a drop and the smell just makes my stomach quesy.
IMHO...........Please note the boldess of MY OPINION, drinking ANY alchol produces nothing but bad fruit and does not give glory to God. I don't judge or comdem anyone who drinks, that is thier choice.
GEL

[Iollain]

God gave me the conviction not to drink though his Word.
I refuse to even take a drop and the smell just makes my stomach quesy.
IMHO...........Please note the boldess of MY OPINION, drinking ANY alchol produces nothing but bad fruit and does not give glory to God. I don't judge or comdem anyone who drinks, that is thier choice.
GEL
This is true GEL, there is no good in it that i can honestly think of.

[mesue]

I like good wine and good beer and I'm always on the quest for a good Bloody Mary. I don't put limits on myself, but find that I am satisfied with one drink. I won't drink alcohol if I know that there is someone around me abstaining, as I don't want to be an occasion for that person to stumble.

[Cright]

I'm not saying this to start a row... I'm just really curious what the difference is...

I see nothing good come from consuming chocolate, donuts, or drinking soda (pop if your from my neck of the woods ;) ) or many other things, that Christians eat or drink because they taste good.

Why be totally off limits to alcholic drinks, instead of allowing yourself to enjoy a drink (in moderation, the same way the sugary carbs should be, if you like them) once in awhile?

Carina

[kayanne]

This is true GEL, there is no good in it that i can honestly think of.
Then why in the world was Jesus' first miracle changing water into wine?

And you don't think that improving one's heart health is good? I don't particularly love the taste of wine, but I drink it occasionally because I do believe it is good for my health. So many studies have shown, healthwise, it is better to consume alcohol moderately (1 serving a few times per week) rather than to totally abstain. Maybe that's why Jesus miracle was to make wine--God wanted us to really notice that. And of course Jesus drank wine with his disciples. (and I don't buy that line about it was really only grape juice, or that it was much weaker than our wine today, or whatever. One glass of today's wine, even if it was "stronger" than Jesus' wine, would not cause a person to "be drunk with wine, wherein is excess.")

For someone who actually consumes only a few glasses of wine per year, I really am quite passionate about the topic!

[Iollain]

Heh, i really don't mind the consumption of what your talking about but i get sad when i think of what it has done/doing to some of the people i know. Not that it's the drinks fault, but....

[moeowo]

LOL...I'll take your word for it :D



You must add just one lime. ;)

[Jessica Lauren]

I have had sips on New Years and such, but never any more than a sip.

[Iosias]

I do not touch it unless it is in the wine for the Lord's Supper.

[Gold Dragon]

Quality wines and yes, even some beers are truly amazing complements to food just purely from the taste perspective that you simply cannot get from non-alcoholic equivalents. As someone who enjoys fine quality foods and drink, that is the main use of alcohol in my diet. Usually one glass with a meal for this purpose suffices.

Ice wines with dessert.
Certain full bodied wines with red meat.
A good Chardonnay or Reisling in seafood.
European beers with pub food (wings, calimari, fried stuff)
Lately, we've been experimenting with the wonderful creation of port or fortified wines with our foods. Delicious!

[cygnusx1]

Ummm I drink on special occasions, like my anniversery or shampain at a wedding something like that.
I really like your sig sethsmommy :thumbsup:

I drink alcohol , but not to excess..............drunkeness is sin.

[tigersnare]

The Shakers thought sex was a sin, even in marriage. There are groups that think cutting your hair is a sin, that drinking caffiene is a sin, that chewing gum is a sin, etc. If you stopped doing everything that somebody else considers a sin, you would starve and be really, really bored.

Not to mention reverting to a form of Gnostism.


I drink a beer a day. I enjoy the good things God has made for his creation.

[GreenEyedLady]

I'm not saying this to start a row... I'm just really curious what the difference is...

I see nothing good come from consuming chocolate, donuts, or drinking soda (pop if your from my neck of the woods ;) ) or many other things, that Christians eat or drink because they taste good.

Why be totally off limits to alcholic drinks, instead of allowing yourself to enjoy a drink (in moderation, the same way the sugary carbs should be, if you like them) once in awhile?

Carina
All I can say to this is God called wine a mocker and strong drink raging.
God did not call chocolate, donuts, or drinking soda a mockery.
I am going to listen to what the Lord says. You all can drink and be merry I will be the one holding a nice cool glass of ice tea in my hands. :P
GEL

[tigersnare]

All I can say to this is God called wine a mocker and strong drink raging.
God did not call chocolate, donuts, or drinking soda a mockery.
I am going to listen to what the Lord says. You all can drink and be merry I will be the one holding a nice cool glass of ice tea in my hands. :P
GEL

This same God speaks of setting the banquet table with the finest of wines, this same God, Jesus, drank wine enough times and in enough places to be accused of being a drunkard.

I don't think wine/alcohol in and of itself is the problem, as the word is clearly pointing out.

[GreenEyedLady]

This same God speaks of setting the banquet table with the finest of wines, this same God, Jesus, drank wine enough times and in enough places to be accused of being a drunkard.

I don't think wine/alcohol in and of itself is the problem, as the word is clearly pointing out.
I will make this real quick for everyone and just agree to disagree with you on the word being clear at pointing out the things you state.
:wave:

[P_G]

Pastor George comes strolling in beating the Temperance League Drum real loud!


OK

Actually my self I don't drink at all
They don't make enough booze for me to start again.

After 20 years of being sober and being freed from the
unending misery of alcoholism I don't think that taking even
so much as a sip is a real wise choice for me.

Now what you do is between you and Gd

But I will tell you that I do not believe much good has come from
consuming alcohol in the great scope of things.


As for the Grape Juice thing I am a perfect example of why a church should
not use wine at the L-rds supper. Yes the L-rd has freed me from that pit but BUT I am still and will be until the day I die an alcoholic. That means that I can never drink alcohol succesfully ever again. There is from what I am told a significant difference in my body chemistry than those of regular folks. And one sip is all it would take for it to be a trigger in my body.

So Kedem here I come! (Welches for you non kosher types :) )


Blessings

Do things in moderation
Stay off the road you Gin Drinkers!


Pastor George :wave:

[newlite]

im underaged...

[BT]

I've never come in contact with any Baptists who will admit to drinking alcohol, I have a hard time understanding this aspect of our faith. Most Baptists tend to use a literal interpretation of Scriptures, but will not drink anything fermented...why is that?
I know I'm not supposed to post in these threads but I will anyhow. No I do not drink any alcohol. I think it benefits me not at all. I have no need for it nor any use for it. A thing that destroys lives is something that I tend to steer clear of. And I'm also held to a bit of a higher standard (being an example for the weaker brethren)...

[BT]

The Shakers thought sex was a sin, even in marriage. There are groups that think cutting your hair is a sin, that drinking caffiene is a sin, that chewing gum is a sin, etc. If you stopped doing everything that somebody else considers a sin, you would starve and be really, really bored.
The shakers had lots of problems! Ack! (I just read some stuff about them for a history class). You should all do a little reading on them.. interesting stuff...

[BBAS 64]

I know I'm not supposed to post in these threads but I will anyhow. No I do not drink any alcohol. I think it benefits me not at all. I have no need for it nor any use for it. A thing that destroys lives is something that I tend to steer clear of. And I'm also held to a bit of a higher standard (being an example for the weaker brethren)...
Good Day, BT

Why are not supposed to?

Peace to u,
Bill

[daveleau]

I've never come in contact with any Baptists who will admit to drinking alcohol, I have a hard time understanding this aspect of our faith. Most Baptists tend to use a literal interpretation of Scriptures, but will not drink anything fermented...why is that?

I drink on occasion, but do not party or get drunk. This is the only focal theological idea that I disagree with of the Baptist denomination. My church is a teetotaler church, and I would never drink in front of them. If I drink, I might have 1 or 2 beers over the matter of a couple of hours. Often, I go months without a drink simply because I don't think about it. The way I look at it is that alcohol is not explicitly called sinful. Scripture tells deacons not to partake of too much wine and it tells of Jesus turning water into wine. The whole argument of the non-fermented wine simply makes no sense historically to me. Alcohol has significant health benefits, and just like many things, do not cause harm unless they are over-indulged. Remember, that we are not to be drunk on wine, but on the Holy Spirit. We should not let alcohol have such a hold that it affects our judgment or our ability to commune with God at any time.

[BT]

All I can say to this is God called wine a mocker and strong drink raging.
God did not call chocolate, donuts, or drinking soda a mockery.
I am going to listen to what the Lord says. You all can drink and be merry I will be the one holding a nice cool glass of ice tea in my hands. :P
GEL
I'll join you for that iced tea. A wedge of lemon in mine if you please. :hug:

[Echoes Peak]

I don't drink anymore. I don't like the way alcohol taste and I didn't like the situations I placed myself in when I was drinking, therefore, I quit. As for others, I don't see it an issue if others drink as long as they are doing it in moderation, and know the motivation for why they are drinking. If it's being used as a smoke screen to engage, in otherwise wrong behavior, than I certainly don't think you should partake. If you legimitately enjoy the taste, then fine. But honestly, I'm of the mindset, that if alcohol beverages were to disappear from the face of the earth today, I wouldn't be upset.

[GreenEyedLady]

I'll join you for that iced tea. A wedge of lemon in mine if you please. :hug:
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/coco01.gif

You got ice? I cannot find any ice. I am sure bleechers doesn't have any either being that he is down in Alabama.
You got ice?

[BT]

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/coco01.gif

You got ice? I cannot find any ice. I am sure bleechers doesn't have any either being that he is down in Alabama.
You got ice?
In Canada we always have ice!

[Blindfaith316]

Never ever had alcohol except what is in NyQuil. Use that very rarely.

And for someone who has never had alcohol NyQuil works well.
Out pretty quick. No resistance built up. :D

Galatians 5:19-2119 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
this says drunkenness, a glass of wine doesnt get you drunk. Jesus himself drank wine (the last supper, the wedding parable)

[GreenEyedLady]

this says drunkenness, a glass of wine doesnt get you drunk. Jesus himself drank wine (the last supper, the wedding parable)
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

[BT]

this says drunkenness, a glass of wine doesnt get you drunk. Jesus himself drank wine (the last supper, the wedding parable)Did the "wine" contain alcohol? The same amount of alcohol as wine of our age has? I've heard various theories on this subject. I'd like to know what you think, and how you prove your claim (if it did contain alcohol that is)....

Not pickin on Blindfaith here.. if anyone else wants to pick up this question... feel free

[@@Paul@@]

I've got a question for those who choose NOT to drink, in lue of weaker brethern not wanting them to stumble.. ;)

NOTE: It's obviously OK to drink,,, just as it's OK to **NOT** drink. That's between you and God.

BUT, would you stop eating pork for the same reason?

[Blindfaith316]

On a hot day, after hard work, I'll partake of a cold beer. Never (almost) more than one, though. I am a retired cop, and drunk drivers are my pet peave. It's sort of funny that I live in the middle of (New York's) wine country, and I really do not like the stuff.

Matthan
ohhh I live right in the middle of NY wine country too!!!! :thumbsup: I do like wine, but I drink a glass with dinner on occassion... but I have never been on a wine tour... I dont like white or sweet... so whats the point? ACH!

[BT]

I've got a question for those who choose NOT to drink, in lue of weaker brethern not wanting them to stumble.. ;)

NOTE: It's obviously OK to drink,,, just as it's OK to **NOT** drink. That's between you and God.

BUT, would you stop eating pork for the same reason?Yes I would.

Now I will ask you a question. (umm or three)

IS your gin worth causing a brother to stumble? Do you love alcohol more than your brother? What does "Hi! I'm a Christian, and yeah I love gin." do to your witness? Do you care?

NOTE: this is not specifically to Paul.. but to any who "choose TO drink regardless of weaker brethren.."

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that you ought to drink or not. I'm just asking the question...

[@@Paul@@]

Yes I would.

Now I will ask you a question. (umm or three)

IS your gin worth causing a brother to stumble?
No, nothing is worth that... not even BBQ pork ribs.
Do you love alcohol more than your brother?
No, no more than i love eating meat more than i love by brothers (and sisters).
What does "Hi! I'm a Christian, and yeah I love gin." do to your itness? Do you care?
Everyone judges... It's human nature... It would depend on who was listening. "Sipping on gin does not make me any less of a Christian...

don't be silly,, of course i care... that's why i'm still here explaining it...

The difference between Pork and Alcohol is that God at one time specifically asked us NOT to eat Pork > there is no such commandment regarding Alchohol...

[@@Paul@@]

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that you ought to drink or not. I'm just asking the question...
I know...

And i'm not telling you to drink gin. ;)

[BaLou]

Did you hear the one about baptists don't recognize each other in liquor stores?; or how about ... have you ever noticed why it takes baptists so long to answer the front door? Because they are busy trying to hide the booze.

You know, I'm just kidding. :P

No, I don't have a problem with drinking. I do have a problem with folks getting drunk. There is a difference. BTW, Jesus himself drank wine. I don't like wine or hard liquor, but I do like to drink a beer on occasion.

[GreenEyedLady]

The difference between Pork and Alcohol is that God at one time specifically asked us NOT to eat Pork > there is no such commandment regarding Alchohol...
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Pork is not a mocker is it?

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Pork cannot pervert the judgement can it?


Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
In no way can pork cause your judgment to fail, but wine and strong drink can!
Gin is a strong drink..........
And GOD did warn us about alchol affecting our Judgement. He did tell many of the holy men of God NOT to drink wine or strong drink.
GEL

[jenptcfan]

Here's a Baptist who will "admit" that she has had a drink before (in response to the OP). However, I have never had enough to where I was drunk or even feeling any different than before I had the drink. And it's very rare for me to drink....maybe one or two drinks a year.

[@@Paul@@]

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Pork is not a mocker is it?

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Pork cannot pervert the judgement can it?


Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
In no way can pork cause your judgment to fail, but wine and strong drink can!
Gin is a strong drink..........
And GOD did warn us about alchol affecting our Judgement. He did tell many of the holy men of God NOT to drink wine or strong drink.
GEL
I was not trying to debate one over the other... I'd rather spend my time defending the Acts 28 POV... ;)

LOTS of things cause brothers to stumble > not just alcohol. illicit clothing, fancy cars, rock music, FOOD, drink, etc. etc..

We ALL agree being drunk is a SIN... and drinking is NOT (unless you've been asked not to drink ;) ).

NO, pork will not cause your judgment to fail, unless you've been asked NOT to eat it.
Deu 32:46-47 KJV
(46) And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.
(47) For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
Notice it doesn't say I shall prolong your days. It says You Shall.

:)

[JM]

The Shakers thought sex was a sin, even in marriage. There are groups that think cutting your hair is a sin, that drinking caffiene is a sin, that chewing gum is a sin, etc. If you stopped doing everything that somebody else considers a sin, you would starve and be really, really bored.
That's what I'm sayin'...in life, we are always going to find something that will make a weaker brother or sister stumble. For some, coffee reminds them of bingo and bingo is gambling (true story) so I was asked not to drink coffee around them. That's taking it too far, I think Paul's intent was a little different then simply avoiding everything that would make someone stumble.

But I'm often wrong...

sp

[Gold Dragon]

That's what I'm sayin'...in life, we are always going to find something that will make a weaker brother or sister stumble. For some, coffee reminds them of bingo and bingo is gambling (true story) so I was asked not to drink coffee around them. That's taking it too far, I think Paul's intent was a little different then simply avoiding everything that would make someone stumble.
I think alcoholism is a common enough problem that it is reasonable to apply the stumbling block passages to it. Obviously I don't avoid alcohol altogether for this reason but am wary of it. It doesn't make drinking alcohol wrong, just unloving to a brother/sister in some situations.

[BT]

:P I was not trying to debate one over the other... I'd rather spend my time defending the Acts 28 POV... ;)

LOL you'd have better luck proving that we should all get hammered.:P

[BT]

Everyone judges... It's human nature... It would depend on who was listening. "Sipping on gin does not make me any less of a Christian...

That's a nice cop out. One that we often hear...


don't be silly,, of course i care... that's why i'm still here explaining it...

So what if there is a weaker brother or sister reading this, who has perhaps read your posts and felt that you were one to look to for advice or for counsel. Then they see you come in talking about drinking gin and how you figure it's ok. And giving some nonsense opinions about drinking in general. What about that? Did you think of that? Is your explanation then sufficient? Well if Paul on CF thinks it's ok, and I think he's right on because of his other posts.. then it must be ok...

Don't scoff at that analogy it happens everyday and that is what a "weaker" brother is referring to...


The difference between Pork and Alcohol is that God at one time specifically asked us NOT to eat Pork > there is no such commandment regarding Alchohol...
You know Paul and whoever else reads this. This above quote is amongst the most ridiculous and childish arguments that I've ever heard (I'm not speaking specifically about Paul... I've heard this plenty of times). You know that some medical doctors will tell you that anything in moderation is ok. You know the Bible does not say anything against smoking crack. So let's all line up and take a hit of that why don't we. Crack is too powerful you say? Ok well the Bible doesn't say anything (specifically) about not smoking pot so lets take a toke off that doobie (so long as we don't get "drunken" in the pot). I mean mabey I can take a hit or two and be "ok".. because after all one man's definition of "drunk" or "high" is surely different from anothers. Right? Hey if the Bible isn't specific enough we can have the liberty to do whatever we want. Let's make a distinct comparison with pork though ok?

[@@Paul@@]

:P
LOL you'd have better luck proving that we should all get hammered.:P
You are right,, that's pretty straight forward.

for the sake of the weaker brothers, i'll turn on joke mode :)

<JOKE MODE ON>
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
The greek didn't capitolize spirit.. "A better translation" would say...

Don't be drunk with wine, be filled with spirit...

and as we all know, Gin is a spirit.

<OFF>

:holy: :kiss:

[@@Paul@@]

That's a nice cop out. One that we often hear...

So what if there is a weaker brother or sister reading this, who has perhaps read your posts and felt that you were one to look to for advice or for counsel. Then they see you come in talking about drinking gin and how you figure it's ok. And giving some nonsense opinions about drinking in general. What about that? Did you think of that? Is your explanation then sufficient? Well if Paul on CF thinks it's ok, and I think he's right on because of his other posts.. then it must be ok...

Don't scoff at that analogy it happens everyday and that is what a "weaker" brother is referring to...

You know Paul and whoever else reads this. This above quote is amongst the most ridiculous and childish arguments that I've ever heard (I'm not speaking specifically about Paul... I've heard this plenty of times). You know that some medical doctors will tell you that anything in moderation is ok. You know the Bible does not say anything against smoking crack. So let's all line up and take a hit of that why don't we. Crack is too powerful you say? Ok well the Bible doesn't say anything (specifically) about not smoking pot so lets take a toke off that doobie (so long as we don't get "drunken" in the pot). I mean mabey I can take a hit or two and be "ok".. because after all one man's definition of "drunk" or "high" is surely different from anothers. Right? Hey if the Bible isn't specific enough we can have the liberty to do whatever we want. Let's make a distinct comparison with pork though ok?
BT, my point was simply this... there are a lot of things that cause people to stumble... not just Alcohol...

I listed pork because that is argued MORE than the case for/against alcohol... and could also cause someone to stumble.

Eating pork is not a sin, and neither is having a drink of gin (in moderation). Or are you saying drinking at all is a sin?

[@@Paul@@]

That's what I'm sayin'...in life, we are always going to find something that will make a weaker brother or sister stumble. For some, coffee reminds them of bingo and bingo is gambling (true story) so I was asked not to drink coffee around them. That's taking it too far, I think Paul's intent was a little different then simply avoiding everything that would make someone stumble.

But I'm often wrong...

sp
Exactly!!

What about those with coffee addiction??

Should we put the “Baptist Barista” out of business on Sunday mornings because of the weaker brothers who have a caffeine addiction even though ALL the proceeds go to the bus ministry??

[BT]

BT, my point was simply this... there are a lot of things that cause people to stumble... not just Alcohol...
So what?



I listed pork because that is argued MORE than the case for/against alcohol... and could also cause someone to stumble.

Eating pork is not a sin, and neither is having a drink of gin (in moderation). Or are you saying drinking at all is a sin?
The point of pork was to the newly converted Jew. It's a big deal to them so it was a big deal to Paul. But drinking doesn't seem to be a big deal here, even though it has severe ramifications.


The point is that Christians are too loose with the way that they live. We seem to think that we can do whatever we want and seek to justify it by any means necessary. This is exactly why the Christian leader is held to a higher standard.

[tesnusxenos]

No more potlucks, since they encourage gluttony?

[Gold Dragon]

No more potlucks, since they encourage gluttony?
If half your church is on Atkins. ;)

[BT]

Yeah mock. That's the spirit.

[@@Paul@@]

This is exactly why the Christian leader is held to a higher standard.
I agree.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;


1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Is drinking a sin?

[StevenL]

I honestly know many more christians and "ministers" who have been deceived and ruined and destroyed by EATING too much food than who have been ruined by wine or alcohol. Many are being destroyed by MONEY and POSSESSIONS. SEX has destroyed more christians than booze. I always that it was pretty funny (in a non-humorous sense) to see a 400 pound preacher cursing people for drinking alcohol and not paying tithes. God actually told the Israelites that they could sell their tithe, go to the place of His Name, and buy food, wine or strong drink if they wanted and have a festival, rejoicing before Him. Deuteronomy 14.

If you exercise the fruit of the spirit called "self control" wine won't deceive you or mock you or destroy you. And you won't gain 200 lbs. and get diseases from eating PORK or other foods. And if the king will control himself, he won't pervert judgment because he's drunkened himself with booze. Eh?

[BT]

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Is drinking a sin?
Can you prove that "wine" in the verse contained alcohol? Can you show me that the Hebrew people drank anything besides wine and water and that the wine was everytime of the alcoholic variety? Can you tell that if indeed the wine contained alcohol in this passage that it contained the same type and percentage of alcohol of modern wine or gin? Have you studied the custom of wine making and the difference (if you think there is one) between that and juice in the OT and NT days? Do you understand the processes and means used? Are you willing to risk it? More power to ya if you will.

[Gold Dragon]

Can you prove that "wine" in the verse contained alcohol? Can you show me that the Hebrew people drank anything besides wine and water and that the wine was everytime of the alcoholic variety? Can you tell that if indeed the wine contained alcohol in this passage that it contained the same type and percentage of alcohol of modern wine or gin? Have you studied the custom of wine making and the difference (if you think there is one) between that and juice in the OT and NT days? Do you understand the processes and means used? Are you willing to risk it? More power to ya if you will.I have heard all these twists and turns that anti-alcohol folks use to make the bible sound like it doesn't allow alcohol. It is interesting how the "plain reading of scripture" is no longer valid when it doesn't agree with your worldview.

As the Proverbs 31 verses stated, back in that time, wine and strong drink were known to exhibit narcotic effects.

KJV : Proverbs 31:4-7

It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
it is not for kings to drink wine;
nor for princes strong drink:
Lest they drink, and forget the law,
and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish,
and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Let him drink, and forget his poverty,
and remember his misery no more.

[BT]

I have heard all these twists and turns that anti-alcohol folks use to make the bible sound like it doesn't allow alcohol. It is interesting how the "plain reading of scripture" is no longer valid when it doesn't agree with your worldview.

As the Proverbs 31 verses stated, back in that time, wine and strong drink were known to exhibit narcotic effects.
Tell me Gold Dragon, was the bread that Jesus ate the same as the bread that I buy in the grocery store? Was the bread the same as what David ate? It's not about plain reading of scripture it's about interpretation and understanding the manners and customs of the Bible times. It helps us to understand the scriptures and not draw the wrong conclusions. So now since you know.. show me that it was alcoholic in those verses stated. Show me the research that proves it. Don't just give me your opinion now. You gave that already and I don't dispute it. Give me your work.

[Gold Dragon]

Don't just give me your opinion now. You gave that already and I don't dispute it. Give me your work.I just gave you one key verse that shows that wine was understood to be alcoholic back in the time of Proverbs. Seriously diluted wine or juice would not exhibit such effects. Obviously it wasn't the same type of grapes, process, bottles that we use now, but it had the same effect.

[BT]

I just gave you one key verse that shows that wine was understood to be alcoholic back in the time of Proverbs. Seriously diluted wine or juice would not exhibit such effects.
That! is the extent of your research? Wow. I suppose everything that Solomon ate and drank was the same as what Jesus had, there were no differences no advancements, no syntactical discrepancies... C'mon

[BT]

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Is drinking a sin?
Point two.

In this verse (even if the wine contained alcohol) was the drinking of the wine for pleasure? Was it to complement a meal? Was it to relax on a hot day? Or was it as medicine?

[Gold Dragon]

That! is the extent of your research? Wow. I suppose everything that Solomon ate and drank was the same as what Jesus had, there were no differences no advancements, no syntactical discrepancies... C'mon
Why does this matter? If your position is that all mention of usage of wine in the bible is non-alcoholic, one instance otherwise disproves that position. I don't need to go prove every instance.

Maybe some instances of drinking wine in the bible were of lower alcoholic content than others. So what?

[@@Paul@@]

Can you prove that "wine" in the verse contained alcohol? Can you show me that the Hebrew people drank anything besides wine and water and that the wine was everytime of the alcoholic variety? Can you tell that if indeed the wine contained alcohol in this passage that it contained the same type and percentage of alcohol of modern wine or gin? Have you studied the custom of wine making and the difference (if you think there is one) between that and juice in the OT and NT days? Do you understand the processes and means used? Are you willing to risk it? More power to ya if you will.
As far as i can tell there was two types... wine with a little alcohol and wine with a LOT of alcohol "strong drink".

I'm pretty sure gin by itself would fall under the "strong drink" catagory, which is why it's watered down...

non-alcoholic wine would do nothing for your stomach, nor would there be any reason to command pastors and decons to abstain from AND abstain from MUCH wine if it was grape juice.

At the very least, it's refering to "wine with a little alcohol"...

I'll answer the question: Is drinking a sin???
YES, it's a sin IF God has asked you to abstain. Otherwise NO (in moderation).

Which is why i said:
I'm a Baptist, and oh man do i like Gin (in moderation of course).
And not:
I LOVE GIN!!

[Gold Dragon]

Point two.

In this verse (even if the wine contained alcohol) was the drinking of the wine for pleasure? Was it to complement a meal? Was it to relax on a hot day? Or was it as medicine?
The bible also never said that I could drink Coke or OJ for those reasons either. What shall I do?

Yes wine could be used as medicine. But it can also be used for pleasure, to complement a meal and to relax on a hot day.

[BT]

But it can also be used for pleasure, to complement a meal and to relax on a hot day.
Show me the Biblical reference.

[Gold Dragon]

Show me the Biblical reference.
After you show me the biblical refrence for allowing Coke and OJ for those reasons.

[BT]

After you show me the biblical refrence for allowing Coke and OJ for those reasons.
:) That settles that.

So the moral of the story for the younger Christians out there. Is be very careful what you roam around preaching. And no, don't take these guys' word for it. Don't drink. Do the research yourself. Trust your pastors. Find godly counsel which is backed up with understanding.

[NicodemusPrime]

I'm not ashamed to say that I drink beer and wine. I occasionally buy a nice import beer or pick up a bottle of nice wine for a meal. I never drink enough to become drunk, I never drink in public, i never offer a drink to a guest, and I don't recommend that others drink it. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this, but others might disagree.

[kayanne]

Can you prove that "wine" in the verse contained alcohol? Can you show me that the Hebrew people drank anything besides wine and water and that the wine was everytime of the alcoholic variety? Can you tell that if indeed the wine contained alcohol in this passage that it contained the same type and percentage of alcohol of modern wine or gin? Have you studied the custom of wine making and the difference (if you think there is one) between that and juice in the OT and NT days? Do you understand the processes and means used? Are you willing to risk it? More power to ya if you will.
It sounds like you are grasping at straws. What in the world could possibly support your suggestion that the wine in the verse did NOT contain alcohol? There is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine! (and if back then, the wine was non-alcoholic, then "be not drunk with wine" makes no sense whatsoever). And it doesn't matter one iota if the type and percentage of alcohol in Jesus' wine is the same as today's wine. Different varieties of wines have different percentages of alcohol. Plain fact. But so what? God doesn't say "only drink wine if its percentage of alcohol is exactly the same as what Jesus made, or what Timothy spoke of using for stomach problems." God simply says "do not be drunk on wine." So if today's wine is stronger, we simply use portion control so that we "do not get drunk." It today's wine is weaker, we can drink more if we want, so long as we "do not get drunk."

I truly don't see what the issue is. If someone chooses to not drink at all, that is a safe and probably wise decision. But when that person uses their decision to totally abstain as a source of pride and proof of their godliness, then their NOT drinking has created a sinful attitude. Would you really tell Jesus to Himself that it is a sin to drink any alcohol whatsoever? Would you?

Yes, the Bible says wine is a mocker (am I the only one getting tired of seeing that same verse posted repeatedly?) But when taken in the WHOLE of scripture, there is no blanket condemnation of any and all use of alcohol.

The Bible says not to store up treasures for yourself on earth. Some off-the-edge interpretation might cause someone to think Christians should never have savings accounts. Can excessive attachment to earthly treasure become a sin? Absolutely! Is moderate, responsible saving for one's future a sin? Most would say no. Should we all stop saving because SOME people become selfishly frugal and obsessed with their money? Of course not. What if someone on this board is a weaker brother who is struggling with being a hoarder of his money? Could my responsible saving be a stumbling block to him? Or would it show him that there is indeed merit in responsible saving, and that Christians don't have to be legalistic in their approach to life?

[SumTinWong]

I've never come in contact with any Baptists who will admit to drinking alcohol, I have a hard time understanding this aspect of our faith. Most Baptists tend to use a literal interpretation of Scriptures, but will not drink anything fermented...why is that? I drink beer once in a great while. I went to DC over the summer and ate at the American Seafood Company. There I had a Sam Adams for the first time. It was so good I had one the next day for dinner. Since then? Nada. I like beer with seafood.

[StevenL]

Paul had a perfect opportunity to rebuke the assemblies for using alcoholic wine in their love feasts in his letter to the Corinthians who were GETTING DRUNK at the meetings. But he didn't say a word about the use of the alcohol...he rebuked them for their selfishness.

[GreenEyedLady]

I think the issue here is being SOBER minded. If your taking a drink to "relax" that is not being sober minded. Your judgement is off, just a little, and you relax, unwind and your worries of the day fly away. New Christians reading this. This is an addition to what BT said. Do a study on the word sober in the bible. God wants us SOBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Timothy 3:2-3 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Titus 2:1-2 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

1 Peter 1:13-14 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

sober
SO'BER, a. L. sobrius.
1. Temperate in the use of spiritous liquors; habitually temperate; as a sober man. Live a sober, righteous and godly life.
2. Not intoxicated or overpowered by spiritous liquors; not drunken. The sot may at times be sober.
3. Not mad or insane; not wild, visionary or heated with passion; having the regular exercise of cool dispassionate reason. There was not a sober person to be had; all was tempestuous and blustering. Not sober man would put himself in danger, for the applause of escaping without breaking his neck.
4. Regular; calm; not under the influence of passion; as sober judgment; a man in his sober senses.
5. Serious; solemn; grave; as the sober livery of autumn. What parts gay France from sober Spain? See her sober over a sampler, or gay over a jointed baby.
SO'BER, v.t. TO make sober; to cure of intoxication. There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain and drinking largely sobers us again.

[tesnusxenos]

Can you prove that "wine" in the verse contained alcohol? Can you show me that the Hebrew people drank anything besides wine and water and that the wine was everytime of the alcoholic variety? Can you tell that if indeed the wine contained alcohol in this passage that it contained the same type and percentage of alcohol of modern wine or gin? Have you studied the custom of wine making and the difference (if you think there is one) between that and juice in the OT and NT days? Do you understand the processes and means used? Are you willing to risk it? More power to ya if you will.
Unless it is harvest it is either wine or vinegar because pasteurization had not yet been invented. Grape juice will not even keep a week without turning.In my opinion, vinegar would be hard on a stomach and not somthing you would drink for health.

[jenptcfan]

I think the issue here is being SOBER minded. If your taking a drink to "relax" that is not being sober minded. Your judgement is off, just a little, and you relax, unwind and your worries of the day fly away. New Christians reading this. This is an addition to what BT said. Do a study on the word sober in the bible. God wants us SOBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think you might be ignoring the fact that one can have A drink, and not get a "buzz", or have impaired judgement.

If you've never had a drink, I can understand how you might assume that from the first sip of any alcoholic beverage, one is automatically incapacitated or gets a buzz, but this is simply not the case.

Again, it goes back to having self control. Drinking can absolutely be wrong if one is drinking to the point of being drunk, or having impaired judgement. I don't think anyone is debating that. Drinking can also be wrong if it's a crutch someone is using.

But having a glass of wine with dinner because it complements the taste of your meal...and stopping with a small amount of wine, not drinking to excess, not being in a situation in that particular moment where you would be causing a brother to stumble...it's just not sin.

And just as a side note, not in response to the post I quoted...

I don't see how the same people who use the "do not get drunk on wine" verse can say that the wine back then didn't have a high enough alcohol content to get someone drunk. It obviously did, or they wouldn't have thought to put warnings about it in the bible. Maybe the content was lower than today's wine, but it was still capable of causing drunkenness.

And what about Jesus' first miracle where he turned water into wine? Didn't the guests say, "usually the host uses up all the "good" wine at the beginning of the feast and saves the bad stuff for last (after the guests are too drunk to know the difference), but this wine is even better than the first wine!"? I've never known of any examples of Jesus half-doing a miracle. I just can't buy that he turned water into water. It seems to me that the stuff that he miraculously created had the capacity to get people drunk (if they didn't use self-control), based on the biblical account of the situation.

As an end note, I totally respect those who abstain from drinking. I think that no harm will come from that, and that's a perfectly safe thing to do. But there have been some responses in this thread (on both sides of the issue) that have had kind of a condescending tone...let's try not to go there. Believe it or not, we ARE all brothers and sisters and all deserve to be loved and respected.

[cygnusx1]

On a side note , I think recently it's not just a problem with drink and "young people" but also innocent people getting their drinks spiked......


sorry to have to mention it , but this is now the type of world we are all living in...:prayer:

[BT]

It sounds like you are grasping at straws. What in the world could possibly support your suggestion that the wine in the verse did NOT contain alcohol? There is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine! (and if back then, the wine was non-alcoholic, then "be not drunk with wine" makes no sense whatsoever). And it doesn't matter one iota if the type and percentage of alcohol in Jesus' wine is the same as today's wine. Different varieties of wines have different percentages of alcohol. Plain fact. But so what? God doesn't say "only drink wine if its percentage of alcohol is exactly the same as what Jesus made, or what Timothy spoke of using for stomach problems." God simply says "do not be drunk on wine." So if today's wine is stronger, we simply use portion control so that we "do not get drunk." It today's wine is weaker, we can drink more if we want, so long as we "do not get drunk."
You have missed the entire point.



I truly don't see what the issue is. If someone chooses to not drink at all, that is a safe and probably wise decision. But when that person uses their decision to totally abstain as a source of pride and proof of their godliness, then their NOT drinking has created a sinful attitude. Would you really tell Jesus to Himself that it is a sin to drink any alcohol whatsoever? Would you?
Have you ever met an alcoholic? Have you ever met a Christian who used to be an alcoholic? If you have invite them over and drink in front of them. Then ask them what the big issue is. Have you ever met a Christian who is an alcoholic (practicing)? Perhaps ask them why. Then I dare you to have to guts to tell them it (liquor) is not a big deal. I wouldn't have to tell Jesus. Do you honestly believe that if Christ were alive on the planet right now he would be drinking wine? When there are so many other choices available? Are you telling me that there is nothing else that enhances flavor like wine?



Yes, the Bible says wine is a mocker (am I the only one getting tired of seeing that same verse posted repeatedly?) But when taken in the WHOLE of scripture, there is no blanket condemnation of any and all use of alcohol.
Keep reading it.


The Bible says not to store up treasures for yourself on earth. Some off-the-edge interpretation might cause someone to think Christians should never have savings accounts. Can excessive attachment to earthly treasure become a sin? Absolutely! Is moderate, responsible saving for one's future a sin? Most would say no. Should we all stop saving because SOME people become selfishly frugal and obsessed with their money? Of course not. What if someone on this board is a weaker brother who is struggling with being a hoarder of his money? Could my responsible saving be a stumbling block to him? Or would it show him that there is indeed merit in responsible saving, and that Christians don't have to be legalistic in their approach to life?
Walk down skid row sometime... I'm sure you'll realize that it's exactly the same thing. Money is afterall a "controlled substance".

[BT]

Unless it is harvest it is either wine or vinegar because pasteurization had not yet been invented. Grape juice will not even keep a week without turning.In my opinion, vinegar would be hard on a stomach and not somthing you would drink for health.
Was it harvest time? Were the grapes squeezed that day?

[BT]

There are different kinds of drinks throughout the Bible that are called wine. The Pharoahs would have grapes squeezed directly into their cups because of paranoia, this drink was called wine. Then we have "wine" and "strong drink". The fermenting (distilling) process was not discovered until hundreds and hundreds of years later (so there was no "gin" type of drink) but fermented juice would naturally become alcoholic. Most commentators agree that the most common occurence of "wine" was probably a drink similar to our modern ciders (which contain alcohol). Certainly not the type of wine as we have it today.

So onward to the point. If you are going to present something as a fact make sure you can answer the questions. Make sure you know why you believe what you believe.

As a Baptist I believe in individual soul liberty. I'm not a legalist. I would not drink alcohol for the sake of the weaker brethren and because I am held to a different standard because of my calling. I would also not condemn you if you drank some wine with your dinner. The exercise is to see why you are using these verses to support your dinner drink, and if you understand that both sides have valid points.

So eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

[Palatka44]

I cann't understand why Baptists don't use wine during the Lord's supper, why the grape juice? I've asked this before and was never given a 'real' Biblical answer, it seems it's a Baptist tradition.
sp

There is a distinction between wine and strong drink in the Bible. As I understand it the Hebrew word for wine did not necessarly mean that it was fermented. Where as "strong drink" is quite self discriptive of alcoholic content.

[Gold Dragon]

There are different kinds of drinks throughout the Bible that are called wine. The Pharoahs would have grapes squeezed directly into their cups because of paranoia, this drink was called wine. Then we have "wine" and "strong drink". The fermenting (distilling) process was not discovered until hundreds and hundreds of years later (so there was no "gin" type of drink) but fermented juice would naturally become alcoholic. Most commentators agree that the most common occurence of "wine" was probably a drink similar to our modern ciders (which contain alcohol).Thanks BT for that information.

Wikipedia : Fermentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation)

...
History
...

There is strong evidence that people were fermenting beverages in Babylon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon) circa 5000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5000_BCE), ancient Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt) circa 3000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3000_BCE), pre-Hispanic Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Pre-Hispanic_Mexico&action=edit) circa 2000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=2000_BCE&action=edit), and Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan) circa 1500 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1500_BCE). There is also evidence of leavened bread in ancient Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt) circa 1500 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1500_BCE) and of milk fermentation in Babylon circa 3000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3000_BCE). The Chinese were probably the first to develop vegetable fermentation.
...
About.com : History of Wine (http://wine.about.com/library/weekly/aa100598.htm)

In the story of mankind, wine has a long and distinguished history. Traces of wine were first found in Sumeria, the lower regions of Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia held the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, and is often called the "cradle of civilization". Wine is mentioned as far back as 2750BC, but existence of wine goes further - now dated at 5400BC. Sumeria as a nation existed from 2500BC - 1900BC. During this time, the people drank quite a bit of wine and beer. Often, the two were inbibed during the same meal or event. Sumerian wines were made from grapes and dates. In their culture, drunkeness was accepted - in their religious stories, even gods got drunk.

Wine is also early in history of the ancient First Dynasty of Egypt (3100bc - 2890bc). Remnants of grapes were found dating to this period. Soon, pictures of wine making operations were used to decorate walls and palaces. There were two stages to making wine back then - the crushing for the free run, followed by pressing. A fermentation stage occurred between these two. The wine then went into amphorae - large pottery vessels with spouts, used for bulk storage and transportation. Amphorae were stoppered with cloth, leather, cork or fired clay, then sealed with mortar.

[@@Paul@@]

The alcohol content is really irrelevant.

We are commanded to not be intoxicated... In order to be intoxicated from wine, it must contain some alcohol. 1%, 2%, 6%, it doesn't matter how much. Obviously the higher the number, the less you should have...

Gen 9:20-24 KJV
(20) And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
(21) And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
(22) And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
(23) And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
(24) And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Noah got drunk with wine... When was that fermentation process invented?

It's not the gun that's bad, it's the person behind it.

[@@Paul@@]

In comparison, an honest question:
Would you eat sausage on your omelet at a public restaurant?

[kayanne]

You have missed the entire point.Oh, maybe I did. You asked if anyone could prove that the wine in the Bible was alcoholic, or what percent of alcohol it contained. I thought my response addressed those statements.



Have you ever met an alcoholic? Have you ever met a Christian who used to be an alcoholic? If you have invite them over and drink in front of them. Certainly I have met alcholics. I know some quite well, some are family members, another is the husband of a dear friend. I am by no means ignorant of the destruction of lives that alcoholism can cause. It is insulting for you to even ASK me if I would drink in front of them.
I have said repeatedly that I drink a glass of wine only occassionally, and then in private with my husband (who, since his near fatal heart attack at age 35, drinks a few ounces every night at the recommendation of his cardiologist. Much like taking a little wine for one's stomach--I see no difference).

Do you honestly believe that if Christ were alive on the planet right now he would be drinking wine?We know that He drank wine when He was here before. We also know that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so I must believe His thoughts on wine would be the same. A little is fine--to be drunk is not.

I have some questions for all of you who believe that all consumption of alcohol is absolutely wrong.
Would it make you feel better if I promised you I would never drink wine again? Would it please you if I said I would throw out my cooking wine and my flavorings (almond extract, lemon extract, vanilla, etc---all about 70% alcohol). Would you view me as a "better" Christian if I had been posting all along on the side of "no alcohol whatsoever"? Can you tell me how my Christian life would be better if I went from 6 to 8 glasses of wine per year to zero glasses per year, even though I don't believe God is telling me to do that?
I'm totally serious here. I truly cannot grasp your point of view.

[ufonium2]

Do you all refrain from eating because it might cause overweight people to stumble? Gluttony is just as sinful as drunkeness.

[@@Paul@@]

Do you all refrain from eating because it might cause overweight people to stumble? Gluttony is just as sinful as drunkeness.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

:)

[BT]

The alcohol content is really irrelevant.

We are commanded to not be intoxicated... In order to be intoxicated from wine, it must contain some alcohol. 1%, 2%, 6%, it doesn't matter how much. Obviously the higher the number, the less you should have...



Gen 9:20-24 KJV


(20) And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
(21) And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
(22) And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
(23) And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
(24) And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Noah got drunk with wine... When was that fermentation process invented?I thought I said the distilling process was not invented. There was obvious fermentation and in some cases "wine" was alcoholic. But not every case of "wine" was alcoholic.




It's not the gun that's bad, it's the person behind it.LOL. If there were no guns there would be no shooting deaths either. Could we not also say that Tarot cards are not bad but the mediums who use them are...

BTW. I never said that all wine was alcoholic. You cited the passages I only asked how you know that the "wine" in those passages contained alcohol. (Hence the comment that some have "missed my point")

[tesnusxenos]

I thought I said the distilling process was not invented. There was obvious fermentation and in some cases "wine" was alcoholic. But not every case of "wine" was alcoholic.


Its either wine ofr vinagar except durring harvest season! Grape juice does not keep .

[@@Paul@@]

I thought I said the distilling process was not invented. There was obvious fermentation and in some cases "wine" was alcoholic. But not every case of "wine" was alcoholic.

BTW. I never said that all wine was alcoholic. You cited the passages I only asked how you know that the "wine" in those passages contained alcohol. (Hence the comment that some have "missed my point")
Opps, my bad. :D

This verse?
1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
......No, no one can.

Personally, i think it was alcoholic; otherwise it might not have been contrasted with water. Also, why mention using a "little" non-alcoholic wine...

But I will gladly drop this verse, because of the argument. (That it's non-alcoholic wine Paul was referring to) ;)

[BT]

The point of the verse I think was for Timothy not to forsake traditional or secular medicines. We know (from this verse) that the "gift of healing" was not around any longer. It kind of goes along with the verse instructing elders to "annoint the sick" which also relates to natural medicines. If you get 10 commentaries you'd probably get 6 that say it had alcohol and 4 that say it didn't. Me, I'm with you... who can know for sure. Mabey it contained alcohol, mabey it referred to a drink made from certain grapes or other berries that was thought to have some healing properties.. Got me. I'm not gonna break fellowship with a person because they have a drink. I'm just not going to necessarily support the idea. I probably wouldn't preach against having a glass of wine. I would preach against becoming drunk....

[Gold Dragon]

But not every case of "wine" was alcoholic.
The 12 bottle cases were usually alcoholic but you never know about those 6-packs. ;)

[kyzar]

I drink alcohol occasionally (i'm in Australia legal age is 18 so it's not illegal)if I had to number it it would probably be 1 standard drink a fortnight on average... I see nothing wrong with it, overindulgence (getting drunk etc) is definately wrong but drinking on pricipal I feel is fine.
However if I'm with a friend who doesn't think drinking is right, or is a recovering alcoholic, I will not drink in front of them. I know I'll be fine, but I don't want to lead others to sin or tempt them etc. If someone thinks drinking is a sin, I simpoly do not drink in front of them, easy. If someone asked me: 'do you drink' I would have no problem saying, 'yes, occasionally.' I don't have a problem with it...

[BT]

The 12 bottle cases were usually alcoholic but you never know about those 6-packs. ;)
Ouch! :P :doh:

[GreenEyedLady]

And what about Jesus' first miracle where he turned water into wine? Didn't the guests say, "usually the host uses up all the "good" wine at the beginning of the feast and saves the bad stuff for last (after the guests are too drunk to know the difference), but this wine is even better than the first wine!"? I've never known of any examples of Jesus half-doing a miracle. I just can't buy that he turned water into water. It seems to me that the stuff that he miraculously created had the capacity to get people drunk (if they didn't use self-control), based on the biblical account of the situation.

.
Jen, If I sounded.....harsh on this forum I apologize. I get caught up with the topic and sometimes I don't read what I wrote with a compassionate eye. Please forgive me. I do not judge anyone because they drink and I would not disfellowship with someone who did drink. I wanted to post this up in referance to the verses that you used in John 2:8 (the Wedding at cannan.)
There are so many things in the bible that if you look hard enough its hard to base any evidence that supports what you are saying.

Joh 2:10
Verse 10. Every man. It is customary, or it is generally done.
When men have well drunk. This word does not of necessity mean that they were intoxicated, though it is usually employed in that sense. It may mean when they have drunk sufficient, or to satiety; or have drunk so much as to produce hilarity, and to destroy the keenness of their taste, so that they could not readily distinguish the good from that which was worse. But this cannot be adduced in favour of drunkenness, even if it means to be intoxicated; for,

1st. It is not said of those who were present at that feast, but of what generally occurred. For anything that appears, at that feast all were perfectly temperate and sober.

2nd. It is not the saying of Jesus that is here recorded, but of the governor of the feast, who is declaring what usually occurred as a fact.

3rd. There is not any expression of opinion in regard to its propriety, or in approval of it, even by that governor.

4th. It does not appear that our Saviour even heard the observation.

5th. Still less is there any evidence that he approved such a state of things, or that he designed that it should take place here. Farther, the word translated "well drunk" cannot be shown to mean intoxication; but it may mean when they had drunk as much as they judged proper or as they desired, then the other was presented. It is clear that neither our Saviour, nor the sacred writer, nor the speaker here expresses any approbation of intemperance, nor is there the least evidence that anything of the kind occurred here. It is not proof that we approve of intemperance when we mention, as this man did, what occurs usually among men at feasts.
Is worse. Is of an inferior quality.
The good wine. This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine, which was harmless or innocent--poculo vini innocentis. The most useful wine -- utilissimum vinum-- was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine-- saluberrimum vinum-- was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the must or juice." Pliny expressly says that a "good wine" was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was stronger than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. We use the word wine now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country--always containing a considerable portion of alcohol --not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol added to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavour to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition. No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the" water-pots" of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink. The Saviour's example may be always pleaded JUST AS IT WAS; but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it. There is, moreover, no evidence that any other part of the water was converted into wine than that which was drawn out of the water-casks for the use of the guests. On this supposition, certainly, all the circumstances of the case are met, and the miracle would be more striking. All that was needed was to furnish a supply when the wine that had been prepared was nearly exhausted. The object was not to furnish a large quantity for future use. The miracle, too, would in this way be more apparent and impressive. On this supposition, the casks would appear to be filled with water only; as it was drawn out, it was pure wine. Who could doubt, then, that there was the exertion of miraculous power? All, therefore, that has been said about the Redeemer's furnishing a large quantity of wine for the newly-married pair, and about his benevolence in doing it, is wholly gratuitous. There is no evidence of it whatever; and it is not necessary to suppose it in order to an explanation of the circumstances of the case.

-Albert barns

[kayanne]

I probably wouldn't preach against having a glass of wine. I would preach against becoming drunk....
That would be preaching I could shout a hearty AMEN to!

[kayanne]

Did you hear the one about baptists don't recognize each other in liquor stores
You know, I'm just kidding.

I don't get that one. :scratch:


But here's one, just to lighten the mood:

Do you know why a catholic never invites just one baptist to go fishing with him?

He knows if he invites two, neither one of 'em will touch his beer.

:D just a l'il light-hearted humor tonight

[jenptcfan]

Jen, If I sounded.....harsh on this forum I apologize. I get caught up with the topic and sometimes I don't read what I wrote with a compassionate eye. Please forgive me. I do not judge anyone because they drink and I would not disfellowship with someone who did drink. I wanted to post this up in referance to the verses that you used in John 2:8 (the Wedding at cannan.)
There are so many things in the bible that if you look hard enough its hard to base any evidence that supports what you are saying.

Joh 2:10
Verse 10. Every man. It is customary, or it is generally done.
When men have well drunk. This word does not of necessity mean that they were intoxicated, though it is usually employed in that sense. It may mean when they have drunk sufficient, or to satiety; or have drunk so much as to produce hilarity, and to destroy the keenness of their taste, so that they could not readily distinguish the good from that which was worse. But this cannot be adduced in favour of drunkenness, even if it means to be intoxicated; for,

1st. It is not said of those who were present at that feast, but of what generally occurred. For anything that appears, at that feast all were perfectly temperate and sober.

2nd. It is not the saying of Jesus that is here recorded, but of the governor of the feast, who is declaring what usually occurred as a fact.

3rd. There is not any expression of opinion in regard to its propriety, or in approval of it, even by that governor.

4th. It does not appear that our Saviour even heard the observation.

5th. Still less is there any evidence that he approved such a state of things, or that he designed that it should take place here. Farther, the word translated "well drunk" cannot be shown to mean intoxication; but it may mean when they had drunk as much as they judged proper or as they desired, then the other was presented. It is clear that neither our Saviour, nor the sacred writer, nor the speaker here expresses any approbation of intemperance, nor is there the least evidence that anything of the kind occurred here. It is not proof that we approve of intemperance when we mention, as this man did, what occurs usually among men at feasts.
Is worse. Is of an inferior quality.
The good wine. This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine, which was harmless or innocent--poculo vini innocentis. The most useful wine -- utilissimum vinum-- was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine-- saluberrimum vinum-- was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the must or juice." Pliny expressly says that a "good wine" was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was stronger than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. We use the word wine now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country--always containing a considerable portion of alcohol --not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol added to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavour to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition. No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the" water-pots" of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink. The Saviour's example may be always pleaded JUST AS IT WAS; but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it. There is, moreover, no evidence that any other part of the water was converted into wine than that which was drawn out of the water-casks for the use of the guests. On this supposition, certainly, all the circumstances of the case are met, and the miracle would be more striking. All that was needed was to furnish a supply when the wine that had been prepared was nearly exhausted. The object was not to furnish a large quantity for future use. The miracle, too, would in this way be more apparent and impressive. On this supposition, the casks would appear to be filled with water only; as it was drawn out, it was pure wine. Who could doubt, then, that there was the exertion of miraculous power? All, therefore, that has been said about the Redeemer's furnishing a large quantity of wine for the newly-married pair, and about his benevolence in doing it, is wholly gratuitous. There is no evidence of it whatever; and it is not necessary to suppose it in order to an explanation of the circumstances of the case.

-Albert barns
This still just goes in circles around what I said.

Why was it the custom of the time to save "the not as good wine" for last? I'm sorry, but based on all the verses in the bible that warn against drunkenness, I think we can safely say that there were beverages in the day that could cause drunkenness, right? One of them is called wine..."do not get drunk on wine."

John 2
10 and saith to him, `Every man, at first, the good wine doth set forth; and when they may have drunk freely, then the inferior; thou didst keep the good wine till now.'

Also, this parable illustrates that people knew the difference between "old" and "new" wine...and people were fond of old wine (which would imply fermentation).

Luke 5
39 and no one having drunk old [wine], doth immediately wish new, for he saith, The old is better.'

Can we all agree that alcoholic wine (perhaps with varying degrees of fermentation) existed back then? And that it was customary for people to drink it (because of pleasure or because the water was unsafe to drink or whatever)?

I think that one side keeps trying to make the point "the alcohol back then was so much weaker than today, and they didn't have to worry about getting drunk from it, so it was ok".....well, obviously if there was some alcohol content, it was possible to get drunk...maybe you had to get drunk on purpose for it to happen, but it was possible.

So the issue was the same then as it is today. They had to exercise self-control, just like people of today.

[Glorified]

It seems to me that if anyone questions their consumption of alcohol they would pray about it and listen to how God responds. Ask God how he feels about you consuming alcohol.

I feel that If people that drink go as far to even question their right to do so or try to base it on Biblical findings to make it permissible for them to do so, then they may have some convictions about it in the first place and already know what the answer is and this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion.

Just my opinion, that's all.

[kayanne]

It seems to me that if anyone questions their consumption of alcohol they would pray about it and listen to how God responds. Ask God how he feels about you consuming alcohol.

I feel that If people that drink go as far to even question their right to do so or try to base it on Biblical findings to make it permissible for them to do so, then they may have some convictions about it in the first place and already know what the answer is and this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion.

Just my opinion, that's all.
I don't think any of us who view moderate concumption of alcohol as acceptable are "questioning our right to do so." We are participating in a forum in which a question was asked, and we are answering. My reasons for participating are not because I "have some convictions aboutit in the first place."

I tend to join this kind of debate because:
1. I think the no-way no-how attitude toward alcohol is legalistically and extra-Biblical, and is a poor reflection on Christianity. Most unsaved people know that Jesus turned water into wine, and see the hypocrisy of Christians saying drinking wine is a sin.
2. I used to feel "no-way no-how" toward alcohol, and when my husband starting drinking wine for his heart, it actually started causes problems in our marriage. Not problems from his drinking, but problems with my judgemental attitude, and my concern about "what will people at church think?" If my husband asked me to pick up some wine at the grocery, I would refuse, for fear of someone seeing me with it in my cart, and fear that they would question my morals. I refused to serve my husband in this small way out of FEAR of what other legalistic people might think. I began to really look down on my husband, and think less of him, just because he followed his cardiologist's advice to drink some red wine each night. Yeah, I'm sure God was pleased with MY attitude---NOT!!

So I began to really see what the Bible had to say, and God convicted me of my pride and legalism. I had tried to make my husband feel like a lesser Christian because of some human-imposed rule.

I will join discussions (online as well as face to face) about any number of issues: women cutting their hair, women wearing dresses only, Christian couples using birth control, Christians homeschooling versus public schooling, drinking alcohol, using instruments in church, etc etc.
Just because I am willing to discuss these things and defend my freedoms in Christ, does not mean I am harboring some secret convictions against them deep in my heart.

[Glorified]

I think that you failed to see my point Kayanne and that you took what I said way out of context.

First off this was my opinion, nothing more nothing less. I choose to express my opinion on these forums just as you choose to participate in them.

Secondly, I feel, IMO, that for one to even question the fact if they should drink or not then maybe they already know the answer. Praying is a very good way to receive this answer if one can hear what God speaks when spoken to.

All I ask is for you to read what I wrote again with an open heart and you'll clearly see that I'm not condemning anyone. I use to drink quite a bit, but once I found God I din't feel the need to anymore. I, myself.

I apologize if I offended. That really wasn't my intension. Maybe it's better that I keep my opinions to myself.

[Gold Dragon]

I think that you failed to see my point Kayanne and that you took what I said way out of context.

First off this was my opinion, nothing more nothing less. I choose to express my opinion on these forums just as you choose to participate in them.

Secondly, I feel, IMO, that for one to even question the fact if they should drink or not then maybe they already know the answer. Praying is a very good way to receive this answer if one can hear what God speaks when spoken to.

All I ask is for you to read what I wrote again with an open heart and you'll clearly see that I'm not condemning anyone. I use to drink quite a bit, but once I found God I din't feel the need to anymore. I, myself.

I apologize if I offended. That really wasn't my intension. Maybe it's better that I keep my opinions to myself.
Please don't keep your opinions to yourself. You have a great stance on alcohol that I respect and consider biblical.

I personally have never questioned whether I should drink or not. I have always known before I ever touched a drop that the bible says that I should drink responsibly and not get drunk or intoxicated. And Paul gives some good advice for certain specific situations where permissable things can be better off avoided out of love for a brother or sister.

[kayanne]

I think that you failed to see my point Kayanne and that you took what I said way out of context.

First off this was my opinion, nothing more nothing less. I choose to express my opinion on these forums just as you choose to participate in them.

Secondly, I feel, IMO, that for one to even question the fact if they should drink or not then maybe they already know the answer. Praying is a very good way to receive this answer if one can hear what God speaks when spoken to.

All I ask is for you to read what I wrote again with an open heart and you'll clearly see that I'm not condemning anyone. I use to drink quite a bit, but once I found God I din't feel the need to anymore. I, myself.

I apologize if I offended. That really wasn't my intension. Maybe it's better that I keep my opinions to myself.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood, although I'm also glad because I (obviously) didn't like what I "thought" you were trying to say. ;) Sorry if my passionate opinion overshadowed my normally nice cheery self.

I guess your statement above that says if a person "even questions the fact if they should drink or not then maybe they already know the answer" is still hitting me wrong--but maybe I'm still misunderstanding.
I think the reason a lot of people "question" and "debate" this issue is because so many well-intentioned Christians do believe and teach that good Christian people simply should not consume any alcohol. You can hardly grow up in my country without picking up on this "rule." So of course people will question it. When my mom was a girl, the "rules" included no playing cards, no wearing make-up, and other such things. As she grew older, she began to question those. Of course some people (to this day) have their scripture verses to support those rules, but Mom questioned them and decided to toss them out.
My main point is that a person "questioning" the sinfulness of something does not at all mean in their heart they are feeling convicted about it.

[BT]

I think that you failed to see my point Kayanne and that you took what I said way out of context.

First off this was my opinion, nothing more nothing less. I choose to express my opinion on these forums just as you choose to participate in them.

Secondly, I feel, IMO, that for one to even question the fact if they should drink or not then maybe they already know the answer. Praying is a very good way to receive this answer if one can hear what God speaks when spoken to.

All I ask is for you to read what I wrote again with an open heart and you'll clearly see that I'm not condemning anyone. I use to drink quite a bit, but once I found God I din't feel the need to anymore. I, myself.

I apologize if I offended. That really wasn't my intension. Maybe it's better that I keep my opinions to myself.
Don't you dare keep your opinions to yourself!!!!

[BT]

Jen, If I sounded.....harsh on this forum I apologize. I get caught up with the topic and sometimes I don't read what I wrote with a compassionate eye. Please forgive me. I do not judge anyone because they drink and I would not disfellowship with someone who did drink. I wanted to post this up in referance to the verses that you used in John 2:8 (the Wedding at cannan.)
There are so many things in the bible that if you look hard enough its hard to base any evidence that supports what you are saying.

Joh 2:10
Verse 10. Every man. It is customary, or it is generally done.
When men have well drunk. This word does not of necessity mean that they were intoxicated, though it is usually employed in that sense. It may mean when they have drunk sufficient, or to satiety; or have drunk so much as to produce hilarity, and to destroy the keenness of their taste, so that they could not readily distinguish the good from that which was worse. But this cannot be adduced in favour of drunkenness, even if it means to be intoxicated; for,

1st. It is not said of those who were present at that feast, but of what generally occurred. For anything that appears, at that feast all were perfectly temperate and sober.

2nd. It is not the saying of Jesus that is here recorded, but of the governor of the feast, who is declaring what usually occurred as a fact.

3rd. There is not any expression of opinion in regard to its propriety, or in approval of it, even by that governor.

4th. It does not appear that our Saviour even heard the observation.

5th. Still less is there any evidence that he approved such a state of things, or that he designed that it should take place here. Farther, the word translated "well drunk" cannot be shown to mean intoxication; but it may mean when they had drunk as much as they judged proper or as they desired, then the other was presented. It is clear that neither our Saviour, nor the sacred writer, nor the speaker here expresses any approbation of intemperance, nor is there the least evidence that anything of the kind occurred here. It is not proof that we approve of intemperance when we mention, as this man did, what occurs usually among men at feasts.
Is worse. Is of an inferior quality.
The good wine. This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine, which was harmless or innocent--poculo vini innocentis. The most useful wine -- utilissimum vinum-- was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine-- saluberrimum vinum-- was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the must or juice." Pliny expressly says that a "good wine" was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was stronger than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. We use the word wine now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country--always containing a considerable portion of alcohol --not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol added to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavour to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition. No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the" water-pots" of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink. The Saviour's example may be always pleaded JUST AS IT WAS; but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it. There is, moreover, no evidence that any other part of the water was converted into wine than that which was drawn out of the water-casks for the use of the guests. On this supposition, certainly, all the circumstances of the case are met, and the miracle would be more striking. All that was needed was to furnish a supply when the wine that had been prepared was nearly exhausted. The object was not to furnish a large quantity for future use. The miracle, too, would in this way be more apparent and impressive. On this supposition, the casks would appear to be filled with water only; as it was drawn out, it was pure wine. Who could doubt, then, that there was the exertion of miraculous power? All, therefore, that has been said about the Redeemer's furnishing a large quantity of wine for the newly-married pair, and about his benevolence in doing it, is wholly gratuitous. There is no evidence of it whatever; and it is not necessary to suppose it in order to an explanation of the circumstances of the case.

-Albert barns
Look out people! GEL got a commentary! And a pretty good one at that!

[GreenEyedLady]

This still just goes in circles around what I said.

Why was it the custom of the time to save "the not as good wine" for last? I'm sorry, but based on all the verses in the bible that warn against drunkenness, I think we can safely say that there were beverages in the day that could cause drunkenness, right? One of them is called wine..."do not get drunk on wine."

John 2
10 and saith to him, `Every man, at first, the good wine doth set forth; and when they may have drunk freely, then the inferior; thou didst keep the good wine till now.'

Also, this parable illustrates that people knew the difference between "old" and "new" wine...and people were fond of old wine (which would imply fermentation).

Luke 5
39 and no one having drunk old [wine], doth immediately wish new, for he saith, The old is better.'

Can we all agree that alcoholic wine (perhaps with varying degrees of fermentation) existed back then? And that it was customary for people to drink it (because of pleasure or because the water was unsafe to drink or whatever)?

There are no circles here. My post was directly aimed at the verses you posted here. I don't deny that alcholic wine was not around back in the day and that people could not get drunk. My post is taking the verse you posted and showing you that there is no evidence in the scriptures you posted that says that anyone got drunk/intoxicated at the wedding in cannan. In no way does either scripture state that the water turned into wine was fermented. The scriptures could go either way. Using these verses to say, well Christ created wine and people got drunk so its ok to drink does not and cannot apply here. There simply is not enough evidence to claim that the people at the wedding were technically intoxicated.
GEL

[bleechers]

There are no circles here. My post was directly aimed at the verses you posted here. I don't deny that alcholic wine was not around back in the day and that people could not get drunk. My post is taking the verse you posted and showing you that there is no evidence in the scriptures you posted that says that anyone got drunk/intoxicated at the wedding in cannan. In no way does either scripture state that the water turned into wine was fermented. The scriptures could go either way. Using these verses to say, well Christ created wine and people got drunk so its ok to drink does not and cannot apply here. There simply is not enough evidence to claim that the people at the wedding were technically intoxicated.
GEL

Without looking back 13 pages (dangerous, I know), I agree with GEL as to Cana. Fermentation is corruption. It is the equivalent of leaven. I believe things did not ferment like we now see until the flood. That is possibly why Noah got drunk (he didn't understand fermentation). I don't believe Jesus would create "fermented" wine.

2 cents.

:)

As to the OP... I don't drink... but I'm not a "law" guy either. I just think it's wise not to drink knowing all we know about alcohol.

[SumTinWong]

Hey bleech, nice to see you back :)

[bleechers]

Hey bleech, nice to see you back :)

Work... Ivan... kids... wife... other "stuff"...

It's good to be back! :wave:

The next round's on me! oh.... sorry.... :sorry:

[SumTinWong]

hahahaha Don't you know it is not proper to let your real life interfere with your cyber friends? ;)

I am just glad you are not gone for good.

[bleechers]

I am just glad you are not gone for good.

That brings the count to one.

^_^

[P_G]

That brings the count to one.

^_^
Make that 2! I love ya - Ya big lug!


PG :wave: