Is it possible? [Archive] - Christian Forums

JustinWilliams

30th January 2004, 08:49 PM

This is potentially a two part question, depending on your answer.

First, as the poll indicates, do you believe that it's possible for a non-believer to do something out of true faith in God? If possible, please cite examples. Biblical examples if possible, personal examples if biblical ones aren't known.

Second, if your answer to the first question was "no," what light do you think that sheds on Romans 14:23:

Romans 14:23
for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Thanks for your participation,
God bless
Hi Don!

Good to talk to you again!

I voted no. Because the natural man/non-believer is naturally sinful. Therefore due to his own depraved will, he will always choose selfish actions. For the natural man does not have a desire to know God or serve him but only seeks to fulfill his own desire. And so whatever good the unregenerate man does will be sinful because it is not done in faith to God nor for His glory.

Romans 14:23 is a great support for this idea as well as Romans 1. Paul tells us in Romans Chapter 1 that even the unbeliever is made aware of God but in his depravity he chooses to put his faith in natural things rather than God. So the unbeliever cannot have faith in God because in his fallen nature he chooses not to do so. That is why we need God the Father to regenerate our hearts through the salvation of Jesus Christ and the minstry of the Holy Spirit so that we are freed from the bonds of sin and are able to see God in His Holiness and believe in Him. But without His salvation, faith is impossible for the natural man.

Hope I wasn't too wordy :sorry:

God Bless

Justin

Ps. Don, I think I have figured out what I want to do. I am strongly leaning toward finishing my BA in Religion and Philosophy with an Emphasis in Biblical Studies here at LU, then going on to seminary to get my M. Div. and finally getting a Ph.D. in Systematic Theology. I had been worrying a lot recently over what I truly wanted to do, and this seems to be my passion. What do you think man?

Arikereba

30th January 2004, 09:54 PM

Way, way before I was a believer, I used to try to remember to thank God for sunrises; because when you have to get up at six am to ride on a bus for an hour to a school you hate, seeing the sky all pink makes the day a bit more bearable. I prayed really hard when a close friend of mine said he was going to kill himself, and on 9/11 when my sister was living in lower Manhattan. I guess those were from false faith?

I only have my own personal examples to go from, but everything I see tells me that nearly all people reach out for God, whether they find Him or not; and that's some kind of faith, to me.

theseed

30th January 2004, 10:13 PM

Romans 14 is talking about little things like eating and drinking, and it says that happy is the man that does not condemn himself by what he approves or does (somthing like that).

I have no reason to not believe that God can use a non believer to accomplish his purpose, there are cases were people knew they had prenteded to be saved and lead others to Christ at the same time. I heard such a testimony from a coach at FCA who would wake up in sweats at nigth from nightmares because he knew he was pretending. But thanks be to God there is no shame in ever comming forward and telling the truth when it comes to salvation.

Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Rom.+14&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=19&y=10#footnote_192599806_1)] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Rom.+14&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=19&y=10#footnote_192599806_2)] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Footnotes

14:11 Isaiah 45:23
14:14 Or that nothing

Reformationist

30th January 2004, 11:29 PM

By "non-believer," are you referring to all the unregenerate or only to those who don't even profess belief?

I'm talking about someone who actually doesn't believe. To me this would clearly indicate that a person is unregenerate. However, I know that there are many Christians who don't subscribe to the view of man's need for regeneration in order to believe.

God bless

Reformationist

30th January 2004, 11:32 PM

Good Day , Don

Hope all is well. You allways ask fairly tough questions and once again you do not disapoint :clap: I normally sit back and learn, but this is some what interesting.

Thanks for the encouragement. I hope we can learn together.

A question on the question if I may, are we to use the non-believers idea of what God and Faith is or truly what God and faith is in the believers POV?

Thanx,

BBAS

Well, there is true faith in God and then there is everything else. I'm just curious if anyone believes that a person who doesn't believe in God can do anything out of faith in something that they don't believe in.

You see, to me, it becomes quite clear that the minute they do something in genuine faith they are no longer a non-believer.

God bless

Reformationist

30th January 2004, 11:34 PM

Hi Don!

Good to talk to you again!

I voted no. Because the natural man/non-believer is naturally sinful. Therefore due to his own depraved will, he will always choose selfish actions. For the natural man does not have a desire to know God or serve him but only seeks to fulfill his own desire. And so whatever good the unregenerate man does will be sinful because it is not done in faith to God nor for His glory.

Romans 14:23 is a great support for this idea as well as Romans 1. Paul tells us in Romans Chapter 1 that even the unbeliever is made aware of God but in his depravity he chooses to put his faith in natural things rather than God. So the unbeliever cannot have faith in God because in his fallen nature he chooses not to do so. That is why we need God the Father to regenerate our hearts through the salvation of Jesus Christ and the minstry of the Holy Spirit so that we are freed from the bonds of sin and are able to see God in His Holiness and believe in Him. But without His salvation, faith is impossible for the natural man.

Hope I wasn't too wordy :sorry:

God Bless

Justin

I don't think that's too wordy at all. I think that is a very biblical response.

Ps. Don, I think I have figured out what I want to do. I am strongly leaning toward finishing my BA in Religion and Philosophy with an Emphasis in Biblical Studies here at LU, then going on to seminary to get my M. Div. and finally getting a Ph.D. in Systematic Theology. I had been worrying a lot recently over what I truly wanted to do, and this seems to be my passion. What do you think man?

I think that's fantastic. Please keep us updated.

God bless

Reformationist

30th January 2004, 11:45 PM

Way, way before I was a believer, I used to try to remember to thank God for sunrises; because when you have to get up at six am to ride on a bus for an hour to a school you hate, seeing the sky all pink makes the day a bit more bearable.

I'm a little confused. Why would you thank a God that you didn't believe in for a sunrise?

I prayed really hard when a close friend of mine said he was going to kill himself, and on 9/11 when my sister was living in lower Manhattan. I guess those were from false faith?

I have no idea if your faith was false. I will say that in this post you didn't once acknowledge that your thankfulness or prayers to God were due to your love for Him. True faith is the result of loving Him.

Again I have to ask, why would you pray to a God before you believed in Him? That doesn't make any sense to me?

I only have my own personal examples to go from, but everything I see tells me that nearly all people reach out for God, whether they find Him or not; and that's some kind of faith, to me.

Are you sure it's God they're reaching out for or only what God provides? I see many people who seem to be looking for the things that God provides but they don't really want it from God. We have all seen people who are searching for things like happiness, peace, relief from guilt and personal fulfillment and since we, as Christians, understand that it is God alone that can supply we conclude that they must be seeking God Himself. This is an error. I believe that people desire the benefits that only God can give us but we do not want Him. We want the gifts without the Giver, the benefits without the Benefactor.

God bless

theseed

30th January 2004, 11:54 PM

Reformationist

31st January 2004, 12:00 AM

Romans 14 is talking about little things like eating and drinking, and it says that happy is the man that does not condemn himself by what he approves or does (somthing like that).

So it is your contention that Romans 14:23 only refers to eating or drinking? IOW, if someone helps another person because they want recognition or applause or materialistic gain then it's a righteous action because Romans 14:23 deals only with eating and drinking?

I have no reason to not believe that God can use a non believer to accomplish his purpose, there are cases were people knew they had prenteded to be saved and lead others to Christ at the same time. I heard such a testimony from a coach at FCA who would wake up in sweats at nigth from nightmares because he knew he was pretending. But thanks be to God there is no shame in ever comming forward and telling the truth when it comes to salvation.

theseed, thanks for sharing that but that has nothing to do with what I asked. I didn't ask if God is able to use the sins of the ungodly to further His plan. I know that He can do this. The story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers is a perfect example of this. I'm not asking you if God's Plan is above our sinfulness. I asked if a non-believer can do something out of faith in God. Let's use your example. You say, "there are cases were people knew they had prenteded to be saved and lead others to Christ at the same time. I heard such a testimony from a coach at FCA who would wake up in sweats at nigth from nightmares because he knew he was pretending." Is the outward pretention of faith a righteous thing just because God uses it to further His plan? Or, does God use all things to the benefit of those who love Him but that does not mean that those who commit the selfish acts that God uses have done anything out of faith?

Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. [b]23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Umm...I'm not sure why you highlighted what you highlighted. The very first verse in this section says, "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things." All this means is that Christians who are stronger in their faith should receive other Christians who are weaker in their faith and should do so in a spirit of humility and love. They should not flaunt the freedom they have in Christ if it causes another person to stumble. This has nothing to do with non-Christians. Do you believe that "one who is weak in the faith" is a non-believer? :scratch:

God bless

Reformationist

31st January 2004, 12:02 AM

I voted yes, but I think I did not understand the question the way you intended, I thought it was asking if God can use an unfaithful, unbelieving person to do anything in general, I guess I quicly read out of faith to mean "outside of faith", which is a literal interpration. All well. :sigh:

Ahh...I see. No, that's not what I meant. I just meant, is it possible for one who does not believe in God to do something because of faith in God?

Thanks,
God bless

theseed

31st January 2004, 12:21 AM

Umm...I'm not sure why you highlighted what you highlighted. The very first verse in this section says, "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things." All this means is that Christians who are stronger in their faith should receive other Christians who are weaker in their faith and should do so in a spirit of humility and love. They should not flaunt the freedom they have in Christ if it causes another person to stumble. This has nothing to do with non-Christians. Do you believe that "one who is weak in the faith" is a non-believer? :scratch:

God bless

I believe this whole chapter only deals with believers, and that's why I said "look at the context" Sorry about the highlighting that first part, I got carried away with highlighting things I thought were interesting instead of things that made my point. I knew this but was lazy and did not want to fix it. Sorry to mislead you. :sigh:

theseed, thanks for sharing that but that has nothing to do with what I asked. I didn't ask if God is able to use the sins of the ungodly to further His plan. I know that He can do this. The story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers is a perfect example of this. I'm not asking you if God's Plan is above our sinfulness. I asked if a non-believer can do something out of faith in God. Let's use your example. You say, "there are cases were people knew they had prenteded to be saved and lead others to Christ at the same time. I heard such a testimony from a coach at FCA who would wake up in sweats at nigth from nightmares because he knew he was pretending." Is the outward pretention of faith a righteous thing just because God uses it to further His plan? Or, does God use all things to the benefit of those who love Him but that does not mean that those who commit the selfish acts that God uses have done anything out of faith?

I cleared this up in another post, I misunderstood the poll question.

it is your contention that Romans 14:23 only refers to eating or drinking? IOW, if someone helps another person because they want recognition or applause or materialistic gain then it's a righteous action because Romans 14:23 deals only with eating and drinking?

I think it has to do with minor things like eating and drinking, circumcision, consumpiton of alcohal vs abstinance---those kind of things. There are things that the bible does not permit on the ground that it is sin, then there are things that it does not forbid, but some consider it not to be permissible.

Somewhere, Paul writes (Galations?) "All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial, I don't think he means sins like sexual immoraltiy and murder. But this is my POV and interpratation.

Blackhawk

31st January 2004, 12:27 AM

This is potentially a two part question, depending on your answer.

First, as the poll indicates, do you believe that it's possible for a non-believer to do something out of true faith in God? If possible, please cite examples. Biblical examples if possible, personal examples if biblical ones aren't known.
Okay maybe I am not understanding the question fully but it seems to me that answer is clearly no. No matter if one is a calvinist or a pelagian it is no. Because how can one do something out of true faith if one does not have true faith? If one had the faith to do something out of true faith then one would be a believer. So only believers cna do something out of faith that only believer's (one that have true faith in God) can have.

Second, if your answer to the first question was "no," what light do you think that sheds on Romans 14:23:

Romans 14:23
for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Thanks for your participation,
God bless
Well I have not looked up the verse but is not all of us from sin. That is before salvation we have a sin nature. Also if we look at James 2 if one has true faith then actions will occur. Another note is that Jesus made a huge point that our reasons for doing what we do matters. So I can clean the ktchen for my wife but if I do it so I will get something then it is just a selfish act. However if I do it just out of love then it is a good act. So if one does something that from the outside looks good it is not truly good unless one does it with the right motives.

Reformationist

31st January 2004, 12:32 AM

I believe this whole chapter only deals with believers, and that's why I said "look at the context"

So, you don't think it's sinful for non-believers to do the things that chapter 14 warns us against? As I asked before, do you think it's possible for a non-believer to commit a righteous act? If so, how would you define a righteous act?

I think it has to do with minor things like eating and drinking, circumcision, consumpiton of alcohal vs abstinance---those kind of things.

Hmmm...I'm confused at this. That verse says "whatever is not from faith is sin." You are saying that you believe the context limits it to eating or drinking, right? Does that mean that if our actions are not motivated by a love for God then it's not sinful as long as it doesn't deal with eating or drinking?

There are things that the bible does not permit on the ground that it is sin, then there are things that it does not forbid, but some consider it not to be permissible.

Like?

Somewhere, Paul writes (Galations?) "All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial, I don't think he means sins like sexual immoraltiy and murder. But this is my POV and interpratation.

Yeah. I'm going to have to go out on a limb here and agree that Paul was not talking about doing anything clearly sinful. He was talking about things that don't violate God's law but may stumble another Christian or lead us into temptation. Anyway, I'm not asking about Christians, of which Paul clearly was one. I'm asking about non-Christians.

God bless

Reformationist

31st January 2004, 12:38 AM

Okay maybe I am not understanding the question fully but it seems to me that answer is clearly no. No matter if one is a calvinist or a pelagian it is no. Because how can one do something out of true faith if one does not have true faith? If one had the faith to do something out of true faith then one would be a believer. So only believers cna do something out of faith that only believer's (one that have true faith in God) can have.

That's pretty much the way I look at it as well.

Well I have not looked up the verse but is not all of us from sin. That is before salvation we have a sin nature. Also if we look at James 2 if one has true faith then actions will occur. Another note is that Jesus made a huge point that our reasons for doing what we do matters. So I can clean the ktchen for my wife but if I do it so I will get something then it is just a selfish act. However if I do it just out of love then it is a good act. So if one does something that from the outside looks good it is not truly good unless one does it with the right motives.

I think our motives are clearly at issue in the question I pose. You give the scenario that you could clean the kitchen for your wife. Now, you say, "if do it out of love then it is a good act." I think we would need to address this further. Do you believe it's possible for a non-believer to have a righteous love for their spouse?

God bless

Blackhawk

31st January 2004, 12:47 AM

That's pretty much the way I look at it as well.
Okay I am tired so I was thinking that maybe I was looking at too simply.

I think our motives are clearly at issue in the question I pose. You give the scenario that you could clean the kitchen for your wife. Now, you say, "if do it out of love then it is a good act." I think we would need to address this further. Do you believe it's possible for a non-believer to have a righteous love for their spouse?

God bless
No. Why? well it seems obvious based on my previous answers but I think scripture answers it better.

Phil 3:9
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from {the} Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,
(NAU)

Heb 11:1-40
CHAPTER 11
1 Now faith is the assurance of {things} hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please {Him} for he who comes to God must believe that He is and {that} He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned {by God} about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign {land} dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, {as many descendants} AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that {country} from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 But as it is, they desire a better {country} that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten {son;}
18 {it was he} to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED."
19 He considered that God is able to raise {people} even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, {leaning} on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though {they were passing} through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed {acts of} righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
35 Women received {back} their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38 ({men} of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
(NAU)

theseed

31st January 2004, 12:54 AM

So, you don't think it's sinful for non-believers to do the things that chapter 14 warns us against? As I asked before, do you think it's possible for a non-believer to commit a righteous act? If so, how would you define a righteous act?

Like not eating meat? No I don't think being vegitarian is sinful. I would say no on the part of the rightous act, no one does right in God's eyes. This is even disputalbe for Christians, then again it Proverbs, it says that the rightous man falls 7 times and gets back up. So a definition of rightousness is in order. But I agree that no one is right apart from God, so the rightous man repents perpetually because he believes in God.

Blackhawk

31st January 2004, 12:55 AM

okay after rereading my post I think that it needs some clarification. My point is that one becomes righteous on the basis of faith and not works. Also I think the bible is clear that good works only occur when one has true faith. That true faith will bring about righteous actions. So if one is to have a righteous love for another he must have to true faith because he can only be righteous as a believer and only believers can do any righteous act because righteous acts only come from true faith. Sorry for the run- on sentence. But this question to me seems obvious because true faith and righteoussness, good works or doing something for God all can't occur without the other. I think that is what the BIble teaches. If you have one or do one then you have the others.

BBAS 64

31st January 2004, 03:38 PM

InquisitorKind

31st January 2004, 04:03 PM

Are you sure it's God they're reaching out for or only what God provides? I see many people who seem to be looking for the things that God provides but they don't really want it from God. We have all seen people who are searching for things like happiness, peace, relief from guilt and personal fulfillment and since we, as Christians, understand that it is God alone that can supply we conclude that they must be seeking God Himself. This is an error. I believe that people desire the benefits that only God can give us but we do not want Him. We want the gifts without the Giver, the benefits without the Benefactor.
This question of motivation has haunted me in the past, and, as you can tell from my posting this, hasn't been adequately answered. I honestly don't know how to go about evaluating my actions and attitudes in order to know whether or not I'm just seeking the benefits or seeking Him. How does a person go about doing this? How long can, and does, it usually take? How can they be sure of the answer?

My reason for asking these questions is because I fundamentally believe that the difference between loving the Creator more and loving His gifts more is the difference between entering the joy Heaven and being thrown into pit of Hell. Is this too extreme? And do you think the testing of faith (2 Corinthians 13:5) encompasses testing whether or not your (generic) love is rightly placed? If so, where does Paul explain how to go about this testing?

Any advice from you would be much appreciated, as it's clear that you know significantly more on this subject than myself.

Of many questions,
~Matt

ByzantineDixie

1st February 2004, 01:20 AM

My reason for asking these questions is because I fundamentally believe that the difference between loving the Creator more and loving His gifts more is the difference between entering the joy Heaven and being thrown into pit of Hell. Is this too extreme?

If I understand what you are saying.....

Yes, this is too extreme. Your salvation does not depend on whether or not you love God more than you love the things He can do for you...that would involve a "work" on your part and we know there is nothing you can do...even to the point of loving God more than loving the things He does for you...that will earn salvation for you. Only faith in Jesus as your Savior establishes righteousness with God. That faith comes to you by God's grace and only His grace. Whether you love God because he provided for your salvation in Jesus or whether you love the fact that you are saved more than you love God...both demonstrate faith. Rest in Him. He has claimed the victory for you.

You should question your motives, though. You should allow the Holy Spirit to work sanctification in your life to right these motives but you never need to question your salvation as long as you have faith. The Holy Spirit will help you grow in the faith and will help you with your motivations. Sanctification is a process...

Rose

InquisitorKind

1st February 2004, 01:49 AM

Whether you love God because he provided for your salvation in Jesus or whether you love the fact that you are saved more than you love God...both demonstrate faith.
The situation I'm questioning is more severe. I should've been more clear in what I stated earlier; that is my fault. I also acknowledge that this isn't about works earning justification before God, but more of how our actions reflect our justification (or lackthereof).

I suppose, upon pondering this issue more, the question should be, How does someone know faith is actually present, especially in light of their desires for what God provides over and against their desire for the provider Himself?

If this doesn't make sense, I'd be happy to clarify further.

~Matt

didaskalos

1st February 2004, 07:36 AM

Well... everybody in the gospels who received from God and ministered were unregenerate people.
Can God give faith for a specific thing to an unregenerate? I believe so.

The question would be clearer if we said:
"Can an unregenerate have faith?"

ByzantineDixie

1st February 2004, 10:42 AM

I suppose, upon pondering this issue more, the question should be, How does someone know faith is actually present, especially in light of their desires for what God provides over and against their desire for the provider Himself?

Nah, I should have known the answer would not have been so easy! (I just didn't want someone tormented because they didn't know if they loved God enough.)

James says faith without works is dead...so it would seem on the surface that one could presume if there are no works of horizontal righteousness...there is no faith. But that is a dangerous place for us to play. I don't think its so easy for us to look, make an assessment based on their works and label someone as a believer or not. We can not know who has faith and who doesn't on the basis of good deeds alone. I know a lot of people who are paving their path to hell with good deeds. Societal and cultural expectations have called them to do this...not a relationship with the Triune God.

I think it is fair to say that unbelievers can do some really "good" and nice things--but these really nice and really good things should not be confused as acts of horizontal righteousness which flow from a right relationship with God. I guess the question for me becomes...if good can only come from God...how is it that unbelievers do "good deeds"? God does use unbelievers to accomplish his purposes...perhaps this is the answer? Maybe in some stream of events these good deeds done by nonbelievers ultimately bless his people....

Rose

Reformationist

1st February 2004, 05:08 PM

So a definition of rightousness is in order.

Okay, well, I would say "righteousness" is obeying God because you love Him. I am well aware that non-believers will commit acts of civil virtue, which are works that outwardly conform to the Law of God but are not predicated by our love for Him.

God bless

Reformationist

1st February 2004, 05:14 PM

No I do not think a non believer can do anything in true faith in God, because they do not posess true faith from God. If they did they would no longer be un beleivers.

LOL! I thought this exact same thing.

Don

I do not think this verse has to do with only eating or drinking but puts forth a very usable mark of how Faith is to be a guide in the believers life in all things in which we encounter in our daily walk with the Lord.

Hope this helps,

BBAS

I agree completely. I think it does violence to Scripture to say that the latter part of verse 23 deals with just eating and drinking. I think the verse clearly applies this in a universal manner.

God bless

Reformationist

1st February 2004, 06:09 PM

This question of motivation has haunted me in the past, and, as you can tell from my posting this, hasn't been adequately answered. I honestly don't know how to go about evaluating my actions and attitudes in order to know whether or not I'm just seeking the benefits or seeking Him. How does a person go about doing this? How long can, and does, it usually take? How can they be sure of the answer?

Well, the first theologically sound step we take on this matter is to acknowledge that it is illogical to assume we can ever do anything for a purely righteous reason, even as believers, because we will not be purely righteous until we are glorified. Second, we should acknowledge that our sanctification is the process wherein we are conformed to the image of Christ. This is a lifelong process and though we should strive towards that goal every day we should never be under the prideful impression that we are purely righteous in deed. Also, and equally important, is that we should realize we were not made a child of God because of any of our works, past, present or future. We, as children of God, are righteous in the eyes of God by virtue of the righteousness of Christ. In my signature you'll see the phrase "Simul iustus et peccator." This means "At the same time [simultaneously], just and sinner." This is not an affirmation of a contradiction. These assertations refer to the same person, but not in the same relationship. Believers, considered in themselves, remain sinners, yet at the same time, by virtue of the imputation of Christ's righteousness, are considered just in the sight of God.

So, understand that in everything you do there list, at the very least, the shadow of unrighteous motivation, and let that, in turn, motivate you to thank God for His encompassing grace. Constantly question your motives and seek to guard yourself against self-centered motivations.

My reason for asking these questions is because I fundamentally believe that the difference between loving the Creator more and loving His gifts more is the difference between entering the joy Heaven and being thrown into pit of Hell. Is this too extreme?

I don't think "extreme" is the right word. I don't think this view is biblically accurate though. Entering the joy of Heaven is the result of Christ's vicarious atonement, not your love for God. Your love for God is a result of His grace to you:

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

In the same respect, being "thrown in the pit of hell" is the just judgment upon the wickedness of God's enemies. Our motivations for our works are in accordance with our nature. The carnal man can only commit carnal works because he only desires the things of the flesh. The things of God, like righteousness and faith and a love of our Creator are foolishness to him.

And do you think the testing of faith (2 Corinthians 13:5) encompasses testing whether or not your (generic) love is rightly placed? If so, where does Paul explain how to go about this testing?

Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 13:5 are clarification for the doctrine of the assurance of our salvation. Paul asks the Corinthians to examine their own lives for evidence of salvation. Such evidence would include trust in Christ (Heb. 3:6), obedience to God (Matt. 7:21), growth in holiness (Heb. 12:14; 1 John 3:3), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22,23), love for other Christians (1 John 3:14), positive influence on others (Matt. 5:16), adhering to the apostolic teaching (1 John 4:2), and the testimony of the Holy Spirit within them (Rom. 8:15,16).

Remember Matt, seeking after God is the main business of the Christian life. We will grow together.

God bless,
Don

Reformationist

1st February 2004, 06:14 PM

You should allow the Holy Spirit to work sanctification in your life to right these motives but you never need to question your salvation as long as you have faith.

Your screen name leads me to believe you are Lutheran. If so, I must say that this is a very odd thing for a Lutheran to say. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is incapable of sanctifying us unless we "allow" Him to do so? :scratch:

God bless

Reformationist

1st February 2004, 06:25 PM

Well... everybody in the gospels who received from God and ministered were unregenerate people.

They were? Like who? And how do you know they were unregenerate? :scratch:

Can God give faith for a specific thing to an unregenerate? I believe so.

For example?

The question would be clearer if we said:
"Can an unregenerate have faith?"

All people, regenerate and unregenerate alike, have faith. What they have faith in determines whether that faith benefits them and whether that faith is righteous.

Actually, the questions I was asking are pretty straight forward. Obviously we must have faith in God before we can do something because of faith in God. The issue I am confused about is the paradoxical idea that many Christians subscribe to that non-believers can commit righteous acts without having faith in God. I believe that Romans 14:23 makes it clear that anything we do not motivated by faith (in God is clearly implied) is sinful. Logically this does not include actions that are not the result of a choice, i.e., reflexive actions, biological processes, etc.

Do you believe differently? If so, please give either biblical examples or real life examples. I'd like to avoid turning this into a purely theoretical debate, with statements like "I think they can." Okay. Why do you think they can?

God bless

ByzantineDixie

1st February 2004, 06:29 PM

Your screen name leads me to believe you are Lutheran. If so, I must say that this is a very odd thing for a Lutheran to say. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is incapable of sanctifying us unless we "allow" Him to do so? :scratch:

God bless

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Its difficult for me to always remember to use precise language when speaking about such things. Clearly, the only response we can have in the sanctification process is one of rejection..."Sorry, Holy Spirit, but I'd rather not do this godly thing...I'd rather watch TV, meet my friends for pizza, spend some quality 'me' time." "Allow" was a poor choice of words. Ya got me!

Rose

Reformationist

1st February 2004, 06:35 PM

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Its difficult for me to always remember to use precise language when speaking about such things.

All Christians are naturally Pelagian and it pervades our theology on every front. It's very difficult to guard against and we can all see our weaknesses to a humanistic side from time to time.

Clearly, the only response we can have in the sanctification process is one of rejection..."Sorry, Holy Spirit, but I'd rather not do this godly thing...I'd rather watch TV, meet my friends for pizza, spend some quality 'me' time." "Allow" was a poor choice of words. Ya got me!

Rose

Do you mean our natural response to the Holy Spirit apart from the grace of God would be "Sorry, Holy Spirit, but I'd rather not do this godly thing...I'd rather watch TV, meet my friends for pizza, spend some quality 'me' time?"

I believe, and I'm sure you do, that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome our natural tendency to rebel. He doesn't do this by force, but by sanctifying us and giving us the desire to serve the Lord in obedience.

God bless

InquisitorKind

1st February 2004, 11:25 PM

Remember Matt, seeking after God is the main business of the Christian life. We will grow together.

God bless,
Don
Don,

Thanks for your long and thorough response. I appreciate it and will ponder its contents in light of the questions I have. I'll let you know if I have anything else to ask.

Thanks again,
~Matt

Reformationist

2nd February 2004, 12:03 AM

Don,

Thanks for your long and thorough response. I appreciate it and will ponder its contents in light of the questions I have. I'll let you know if I have anything else to ask.

Thanks again,
~Matt

Your welcome and I look forward to our continued growth in our Lord.

God bless,
Don

ByzantineDixie

2nd February 2004, 01:01 AM

Do you mean our natural response to the Holy Spirit apart from the grace of God would be "Sorry, Holy Spirit, but I'd rather not do this godly thing...I'd rather watch TV, meet my friends for pizza, spend some quality 'me' time?"

I am unclear as to what you mean by a "natural" response. I do see it as a "fleshy" response we might make in rejecting the grace needed to do that right thing. As your signature line says, simul justus et peccator. We live each day in that tension and sometimes we reject what God would have us do and give us the grace to do.

I believe, and I'm sure you do, that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome our natural tendency to rebel. He doesn't do this by force, but by sanctifying us and giving us the desire to serve the Lord in obedience.

Absolutely...we are in agreement.

Peace

Rose

Reformationist

2nd February 2004, 02:09 PM

I am unclear as to what you mean by a "natural" response. I do see it as a "fleshy" response we might make in rejecting the grace needed to do that right thing.

By "natural" I just mean according to our nature. If we are fallen we are going to act in accordance with that fallen nature. The "natural" response to the things of God by an unregenerate person is a response of the flesh.

As your signature line says, simul justus et peccator. We live each day in that tension and sometimes we reject what God would have us do and give us the grace to do.

Yes. However, I think it's pertinent that we acknowledge that our rejection of God's grace does not, in any way, insinuate that His grace is futile in the face of our will. His sovereign grace will always accomplish its goal, though we, as finite creatures, may not understand the means that God uses to sanctify us.

God bless

Amleto

2nd February 2004, 02:53 PM

This is potentially a two part question, depending on your answer.

First, as the poll indicates, do you believe that it's possible for a non-believer to do something out of true faith in God? If possible, please cite examples. Biblical examples if possible, personal examples if biblical ones aren't known.

Second, if your answer to the first question was "no," what light do you think that sheds on Romans 14:23:

Romans 14:23
for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Thanks for your participation,
God bless

As others have said previously, I find the question self-answering.

With respect to the second part, I think connections made by yourself are out of context/inapplicable.

The passage that contains your quoted verse, I believe, pertains to one's own faith, and the allowable/beneficial things therein. If one doesn't have faith in what one does/intends to do, then one is morally unsure and therefore sinning.

Logically, it is suggested in your question that all actions of an unbeliever are sin (with reference to the quoted verse). However, I think the verse is taken out of context. With reference to people with faith, it says if what one does is not by faith, then it is sin. I don't think this is applicable to people without faith, as they have nothing to contradict, and therefore cannot sin by the act of contradicting their faith.

If a non-believers actions don't go against their morals or the word of God, then it is not a sin.

Reformationist

2nd February 2004, 05:02 PM

:confused: As others have said previously, I find the question self-answering.Okay. I do not disagree. I pose the question because of the frequency with which I am exposed to the belief that non-believers can actually respond in faith. Though to many, myself included, the obvious contradiction in a non-believer responding in faith seems a bit of a given by virtue of the nature of faith and how that relates to a person's status as believer or non-believer that, unfortunately, does not belay the illogical claims that are so frequently made that state that non-believers can do just that, respond in faith.

With respect to the second part, I think connections made by yourself are out of context/inapplicable.Just for the record, I think we're spending more time analyzing whether or not the latter half of Romans 14:23 is applicable just because of it's immediate context than we are asking ourselves whether that sentiment, even if it actually does only refer to the immediate context, also actually applies elsewhere. What I mean is that even if "whatever is not from faith is sin" actually only deals with it's immediate context, don't you believe that that applies to every part of Scripture? Or, do you believe that someone's works could be righteous apart from a motivation of faith? You see, there are not shades of righteousness. There is perfectly righteous and then there are all others, the unrighteous. God is perfectly righteous, we are not. You'd be on some pretty risky theological ground to imply that one fallen person is more righteous than another. The "righteous" works of fallen man are like filthy rags before the righteousness of God.

The passage that contains your quoted verse, I believe, pertains to one's own faith, and the allowable/beneficial things therein. If one doesn't have faith in what one does/intends to do, then one is morally unsure and therefore sinning.So our sins are the result of being "morally unsure?" Can you elaborate?

Logically, it is suggested in your question that all actions of an unbeliever are sin (with reference to the quoted verse).Yes, that the proposition. However, we must qualify that by saying that "all actions of an unbeliever are sin in the eyes of God."

However, I think the verse is taken out of context.Okay. Didn't you already say that?:scratch:

With reference to people with faith, it says if what one does is not by faith, then it is sin.All people have faith Amleto; Not all people have faith in God. It's where our faith is that distinguishes the sinfulness or righteousness of our actions.

I don't think this is applicable to people without faith, as they have nothing to contradict, and therefore cannot sin by the act of contradicting their faith.So a non-believer's lack of faith renders his works not sinful just because he/she doesn't submit to the Law of God? :confused: :scratch: Sin is not subjective in the eyes of God Amleto. Just because a non-believer does not acknowledge the authority of God's Law doesn't mean God's Law has no authority to convict them.

If a non-believers actions don't go against their morals or the word of God, then it is not a sin.Are you sure you don't mean "their morals and the Word of God?" Surely you don't believe God doesn't count an action that violates His Word as sinful just because it doesn't violate the morals of the creation?

Tell me something, if you will. What distinguishes an act as righteous or sinful? For instance, let's say that a non-believer gives ten dollars to a homeless person. Would you say that's a "righteous" work in the eyes of God?

God bless

Amleto

2nd February 2004, 08:34 PM

:confused:
So our sins are the result of being "morally unsure?" Can you elaborate?

One definition of sin:
2. To violate a religious or moral law.

I elaborated, with Romans in mind, to say that one need not necessarily violate a moral law, just to be morally unsure about one's actions is 'bad' enough

All people have faith Amleto; Not all people have faith in God. It's where our faith is that distinguishes the sinfulness or righteousness of our actions.

When I talk of faith I mean:
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Under such a premise I propose that not all people have such faith

So a non-believer's lack of faith renders his works not sinful just because he/she doesn't submit to the Law of God? :confused: :scratch:

I never said that, I said:

If a non-believers actions don't go against their morals or the word of God, then it is not a sin

Sin is not subjective in the eyes of God Amleto. Just because a non-believer does not acknowledge the authority of God's Law doesn't mean God's Law has no authority to convict them.

I know.

Are you sure you don't mean "their morals and the Word of God?" Surely you don't believe God doesn't count an action that violates His Word as sinful just because it doesn't violate the morals of the creation?

No. I mean or. If either condition is satisfied, then it is a sin.

Tell me something, if you will. What distinguishes an act as righteous or sinful? For instance, let's say that a non-believer gives ten dollars to a homeless person. Would you say that's a "righteous" work in the eyes of God?

God bless

If the act of giving to the homeless person can be accepeted as loving your neighbour as yourself, and therefore righteous for a Christian, then I believe the act to be also righteous for a non-believer.

This is a point that I was alluding to, (by trying to allow non believers to be capable of not sinning by actions): Should the same act, done by two people (one a believer, one not) with equally good intent, not receive the same 'credit'?

I think so. I do not think that one (of the identical) action(s) should be labelled sinful, whilst the other righteous.

Amleto

Reformationist

3rd February 2004, 12:50 AM

One definition of sin:
2. To violate a religious or moral law.

Well, that may be "one definition of sin." I'm not exactly sure where you got that definition. There is a verse that I can't seem to find, maybe it is somewhere in Romans 14, that speaks of an act being a sin if it violates our conscience. Is that the verse to which you're referring? And, I'll assume, for the sake of discussion, that you mean a Christian religious or moral law. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

I elaborated, with Romans in mind, to say that one need not necessarily violate a moral law, just to be morally unsure about one's actions is 'bad' enough

Amleto, while all of this conjecture is good for random discussion, how is this based on God's Word? Where do you read that our insecurity about the righteousness of our works is, in itself, sinful? I can get onboard with the belief that violating our conscience is sinful but the idea that our being unsure about our actions makes them sinful does not seem biblical to me.Maybe I'm still just missing your point. Could you create a mock scenario perhaps? Or maybe even just reword your point?

When I talk of faith I mean:
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Under such a premise I propose that not all people have such faith

So would any belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence suffice as faith, in your opinion?

I never said that, I said:

If a non-believers actions don't go against their morals or the word of God, then it is not a sin

If you'll notice, that comment was not a reply to your above statement. It was in response to this statement:

"I don't think this is applicable to people without faith, as they have nothing to contradict, and therefore cannot sin by the act of contradicting their faith."

This, to me, seems to imply that if a person has no faith in God then their actions are not sinful just because their actions don't contradict their faith.

No. I mean or. If either condition is satisfied, then it is a sin.

I see. My mistake. I understand that now.

If the act of giving to the homeless person can be accepeted as loving your neighbour as yourself, and therefore righteous for a Christian, then I believe the act to be also righteous for a non-believer.

Accepted by who? God sees the heart as well as the action. If the action is not motivated by our desire to be obedient to God then the action is sinful, regardless of it's civil virtue and outward appearance of conformity to God's Law.

This is a point that I was alluding to, (by trying to allow non believers to be capable of not sinning by actions): Should the same act, done by two people (one a believer, one not) with equally good intent, not receive the same 'credit'?

Of course it should. However, the "good intent" is not "good" because of man's opinion of it's virtue. As I said, we cannot see the heart as God can. If one gives money to the homeless to ease their own guilty conscience and then tells you that he gave the money because he cares about the welfare of others does that make the act righteous or sinful? How would you differentiate? There is a standard for righteousness. That standard is not subjective. If one does not come to the aid of their fellow man because of their faith in God then they do so for a self serving reason an thus it is sinful.

I think so. I do not think that one (of the identical) action(s) should be labelled sinful, whilst the other righteous.

Amleto

The carnal mind does not, in fact it cannot, do something righteous because the carnal mind considers God's Law as foolish. Our actions have no intrinsic value. It is the motivation for our actions that determines their righteousness, or lack thereof. So, the idea of a non-believer doing something for the same reason that a Christian, who is motivated by their love for God, does it is unbiblical.

Amleto

3rd February 2004, 08:57 AM

Well, that may be "one definition of sin." I'm not exactly sure where you got that definition.

I got the definition from an online dictionary which can be found without much forethought going into the URL ;)

There is a verse that I can't seem to find, maybe it is somewhere in Romans 14, that speaks of an act being a sin if it violates our conscience. Is that the verse to which you're referring? And, I'll assume, for the sake of discussion, that you mean a Christian religious or moral law. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

My interpretation of Romans 14 is that faith/morals/conscience are all rolled up. If a believer does something not from faith, then it as akin to saying they are not morallly certain of the correctness oh their actions.

From the same dictionary that I have been using, this is one definition of conscience:
The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong

I thought Christian religious or moral law was implicit, but I shall try to be more explicit from now on ;)

Amleto, while all of this conjecture is good for random discussion, how is this based on God's Word? Where do you read that our insecurity about the righteousness of our works is, in itself, sinful? I can get onboard with the belief that violating our conscience is sinful but the idea that our being unsure about our actions makes them sinful does not seem biblical to me.Maybe I'm still just missing your point. Could you create a mock scenario perhaps? Or maybe even just reword your point?

A bit earlier in this post I have tried to explain how faith/morals/conscience are connected. If one is morally unsure/has pangs of conscience/ or is weak in faith about one's actions, then from Romans 14 I interpret the actions as a sin.

...but the idea that our being unsure about our actions makes them sinful does not seem biblical to me.
I'm not trying to say 'if one can't decide whether to go left or right' then its a sin because one is unsure. I have always tried to say 'if one is morally unsure, then it is a sin.

So would any belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence suffice as faith, in your opinion?

That would seem to fit in with the particular dictionary definition.

If you'll notice, that comment was not a reply to your above statement. It was in response to this statement:

"I don't think this is applicable to people without faith, as they have nothing to contradict, and therefore cannot sin by the act of contradicting their faith."

This, to me, seems to imply that if a person has no faith in God then their actions are not sinful just because their actions don't contradict their faith.

Yes. They cannot sin through the act of contradicting their faith, since they have none. This doesn't mean that the act cannot be sinful in, and of itself.

For example, some (athiest) psychopath may be perfectly happy to kill someone. It doesn't violate is morals/conscience/faith, and is thus not a sin because of any violation, but is a sin because killing in cold blood is a sin.

I hope that clears things up a bit :)

If the act of giving to the homeless person can be accepeted as loving your neighbour as yourself, and therefore righteous for a Christian, then I believe the act to be also righteous for a non-believer
Accepted by who? God sees the heart as well as the action. If the action is not motivated by our desire to be obedient to God then the action is sinful, regardless of it's civil virtue and outward appearance of conformity to God's Law.

Accepted as truth in God's eyes for the sake of argument. Your question had so many 'what-ifs' and ambiguous assumptions that I tried to ease the load, not knowing your intent for the question.

Thus, the following is negated by my assumption;

Of course it should. However, the "good intent" is not "good" because of man's opinion of it's virtue. As I said, we cannot see the heart as God can. If one gives money to the homeless to ease their own guilty conscience and then tells you that he gave the money because he cares about the welfare of others does that make the act righteous or sinful? How would you differentiate? There is a standard for righteousness. That standard is not subjective. If one does not come to the aid of their fellow man because of their faith in God then they do so for a self serving reason an thus it is sinful.

How would I differentiate? Why is it my job to obtain the motives of others? Do you pass judgement on another master's servant?

The carnal mind does not, in fact it cannot, do something righteous because the carnal mind considers God's Law as foolish. Our actions have no intrinsic value. It is the motivation for our actions that determines their righteousness, or lack thereof. So, the idea of a non-believer doing something for the same reason that a Christian, who is motivated by their love for God, does it is unbiblical.
Again, with my assumption that the sole reason for giving money is because "love your neighbour as thyself", then the reason can be the same.

This doesn't mean that it does happen, nor that it may. However your assertion that it is unbiblical is neither here nor there, because quantum tunneling is unbiblical, yet it surely happens ;)