Alcohol and Dancing

[LuxPerpetua]

Just curious here, and certainly not to debate, but I was wondering why Baptists object to these things? I can certainly understand not approving of getting drunk or MTV-style dancing, but I'm honestly curious as to why Baptists object to using alcohol in communion (or moderate consumption of alcohol at home), as well as to, let's say, ballroom-style dancing. I'm especially interested in the communion issue since Baptists are the only denom I know of that does this (although there are probably others, but *I* just don't know about them).

Thanks! :wave:

[Crimson Rose]

I'm not labeled as Baptist, but my husband is so I'll tell him to write you back

C Rose

[Jessica Lauren]

I don't know about the Alcohol thing, but for the dancing... plenty of Baptists dance.

[LuxPerpetua]

I was raised in an SBC church and no one I knew was allowed to dance. My grandparents' generation, though, was far more strict about that than my generation, but even still, dancing was considered a no-no. When hubby and I got married at a First Baptist church, we had our reception in the fellowship hall and had to sign a release saying that we would not have dancing, which was fine by us because we didn't want to step on each other's toes anyway. Hmmm. I am now getting more confused on the Baptist teaching on dancing. Maybe others will have an idea, too.

Also, still curious about the objection to alcohol, if anyone knows.

Thanks. :)

[BT]

Baptist churches are autonomous so you'll see variations.

[LuxPerpetua]

But all reject wine for use in communion, right?

[BT]

All that I've ever seen yeah.

[Gold Dragon]

I've never seen a baptist church use wine for communion.

Alcohol and dancing are not an issue in our baptist church and are quite common activities. Obviously getting drunk is not cool and neither is lewd dancing but nobody really worries about that happening.

I guess I should add that I don't remember any drinking or dancing in church, not necessarily because we think it is a sin, but simply because there usually is little reason to do either inside a church. Maybe it has happened and I see no reason that it would make any waves if it did.

[GreenEyedLady]

But all reject wine for use in communion, right?
Lux,
From what I understand the reason why wine is NOT used in communion is because it is fermented, meaning it is not of the first fruits of the vine, but aged wine. Whenever God dealt with sacrifices it was always something unspotted. He always retained the first fruits of everything. Fermented wine is not a first fruit but a by product of something old and used.
Its not about not having alchol in the church, there is a deeper meaning to this. Please my brothers and sister, feel free to correct me or elaborate more on this for Lux.
GEL
Ps. As far as dancing goes, the deeper reason why dancing is a no-no is because it glorifies the body or ones body, not GOD.

[BT]

Another reason for the use of juice that is more practical has to do with the possibility of recovering alcoholics in the body. If you were to give one of these people a small taste of wine it could really be a stumbling block...

[Gold Dragon]

I am now getting more confused on the Baptist teaching on dancing. Maybe others will have an idea, too.

Also, still curious about the objection to alcohol, if anyone knows.As BT explained, baptist churches hold to a congregational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregational) style of church governance where each individual church is autonomous in determining policy and doctrine. So there isn't really an official "Baptist" teaching per se on these things.

Baptists have historically tended to be opposed to drinking, dancing and in some cases movies too. I have a feeling these are remnants of a decades old culture where "decent folk" didn't go to places that served alcohol, had dancing or movies.

While some baptists have found ways to use scripture to justify their prohibition of these activities, other baptists now find these positions to be biblically untenable.

[Matthan]

I was raised SB, and we did not dance in church or the annex. Dancing was allowed by any and all for any outside activity, including school dances for us kids.

As for alcohol, we did not use it in church. Grape juice was, indeed, "first fruits" to us, and it served all purposes quite well.

We were not prohibited from using alcohol in moderation at any time outside of church. I was born near the Chesapeake Bay, and a cold beer was required anytime steamed crabs were on the table (LOL).

Matthan

[LuxPerpetua]

Thanks for the info. That's been very helpful. I really wish they would have gone into a deeper explanation of these things while I was growing up in the Baptist church. It kind of helps if you know *why* you aren't supposed to do something that other Christian denoms are doing, kwim? GEL, you really have some good insights there. If anyone has something to add, feel free to continue. Very interesting. :)

[Mother Vashti]

I'm honestly curious as to why Baptists object to using alcohol in communion (or moderate consumption of alcohol at home), as well as to, let's say, ballroom-style dancing. 1.) We try to stop everyone else from drinking alcohol so more bottles are left on the shelves when we do our "hits" and load the goods up in unmarked trucks.

2.) Our pastors can't dance, and this way no one will ever know.

[BT]

1.) We try to stop everyone else from drinking alcohol so more bottles are left on the shelves when we do our "hits" and load the goods up in unmarked trucks.

2.) Our pastors can't dance, and this way no one will ever know.

ROFL

[12volt_man]

Just curious here, and certainly not to debate, but I was wondering why Baptists object to these things? I can certainly understand not approving of getting drunk or MTV-style dancing, but I'm honestly curious as to why Baptists object to using alcohol in communion (or moderate consumption of alcohol at home), as well as to, let's say, ballroom-style dancing. I'm especially interested in the communion issue since Baptists are the only denom I know of that does this (although there are probably others, but *I* just don't know about them).

Not all baptists disagree with these things.

I love to dance and when I play with my band, I really enjoy watching others dance and have a good time.

As for alcohol, I enjoy a Corona or two (no lime) here and there.

As for grape juice in communion, this didn't actually start until the late 19th century when the pastor of a church wanted to be able to include his alcoholic parishoners in the Lord's Supper, but didn't want to tempt them with wine.

[mesue]

We are called not to be an occasion for our bretheren to stumble.
If, by my drinking or dancing, I cause someone to do the same (because after all I did it, and I'm a Christian) and that person sins, my example became an occasion for that person to become weak and sin.
Romans 14:21

[Busybee]

Wow, that SBC you got married at sounds more like a Church of Christ. COC have communion weekly and they never use alcohol either. They also don't believe in dancing at all. As well as no musical instruments of any kind in church.

[ZiSunka]

I'm not a baptist, I'm an anabaptist, but the reason that dancing and drinking are frowned upon are that they so easily promote immorality. Dancing and drinking in a bar often lead to extra-marital sex, and even dancing alone can lead to bad decisions. The point of dancing in today's culture is to attract and arouse the opposite sex, so it's frowned upon.

[seebs]

Hmm.

I guess, that sounds to me a little too much like banning cars because, after all, some people use them to get away from crime scenes. Drinking and dancing do not "lead to extramarital sex". People who have already decided to have extramarital sex may go out drinking and dancing, but they made up their minds before hand.

[ZiSunka]

No, it's more like banning porno magazines because some people use them to sin against themselves and their wives.

If you think that dancing and drinking don't lead to extra marital sex, you've never been inside a bar after midnight. That's when people start to pair up for going home to bed. It's the drinking that reduces their inhibitions and dancing that helps them decide who their bed partner is going to be.

[SumTinWong]

I think for me personally it is an issue of conscience. I won't go to a bar because i don't want to be around the element that hangs out in bars. People might say, yeah but Jesus would have gone in there and evangelized, to which I would respond, I aint Jesus. Jesus never had a problem with peer pressure, alcohol, or lust. I am saved by the grace of God, and I do have the Holy Spirit guiding me and keeping me from repeating the same errors, but I also remember the statement, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I suppose if you never had those problems your conscience might be clear and then it would be okay. For me, a beer every once in a great while is about all I am willing to have.

I don't go to "meat markets" better known as bars because I am a happily married man. Why or what reason do I have to be there?

[Gold Dragon]

If you think that dancing and drinking don't lead to extra marital sex, you've never been inside a bar after midnight. That's when people start to pair up for going home to bed. It's the drinking that reduces their inhibitions and dancing that helps them decide who their bed partner is going to be.I'm cool with people who feel this way but many others do not have a problem with this.

I've been in bars and clubs after midnight and have never experienced this. Of course I always go in relatively large groups who control their drinking, hang out, talk, dance, have some fun and then we go home as a group. It isn't all that different from hanging out at a ball game or a restaurant.

Those who go to bars and clubs looking for extra marital sex will find it. Those who don't go looking for that, won't.

I should add that I don't want my activities to be a stumbling block and justify to a anyone who struggles with alcholism, extra-marital sex, etc to think that it is ok for them to go to such places. If I knew it would be a stumbling block, I wouldn't go for the sake of that person.

[LuxPerpetua]

Wow, that SBC you got married at sounds more like a Church of Christ. COC have communion weekly and they never use alcohol either. They also don't believe in dancing at all. As well as no musical instruments of any kind in church.

Actually, all of the SBC churches I went to in the south were like this, so I don't think it was just that particular church. In case you're curious, here is the link to the church that I grew up in and was married in: http://www.fbcj.org. It's really a fabulous church, but I just never quite understood some of the cultural practices (like no drinking in moderation, no dancing, etc.) but you all are helping me to get a better grasp on Baptist practice. Thanks. :)

[seebs]

No, it's more like banning porno magazines because some people use them to sin against themselves and their wives.

If you think that dancing and drinking don't lead to extra marital sex, you've never been inside a bar after midnight. That's when people start to pair up for going home to bed. It's the drinking that reduces their inhibitions and dancing that helps them decide who their bed partner is going to be.

My wife likes to go out clubbing; believe me, I've seen this happen, because I've been in a lot of clubs until after midnight, or until they closed, or whatever.

But I don't think drinking and dancing have any causal relationship at all with what happens. These people are out looking to hook up. If they couldn't drink and couldn't dance, they'd go out to do something else, and find partners anyway. It has nothing to do with drinking and dancing; they'll make up other ways to display plumage if dancing isn't available.

But... Meanwhile, my wife and I can go out to the club, and, guess what, not have extramarital sex.

Dancing does not make us suddenly want to sleep with other people. Dancing is a recreational activity.

The people who are out cruising for sex are not innocent bystanders who had decided that extramarital sex was wrong, but then they went dancing and suddenly an evil dancing spirit made them have sex. They are people who went out with the specific intent of getting laid, and figured a club full of like-minded singles was a good place to go looking.

[ZiSunka]

I'm cool with people who feel this way but many others do not have a problem with this.

I've been in bars and clubs after midnight and have never experienced this. Of course I always go in relatively large groups who control their drinking, hang out, talk, dance, have some fun and then we go home as a group. It isn't all that different from hanging out at a ball game or a restaurant.

Those who go to bars and clubs looking for extra marital sex will find it. Those who don't go looking for that, won't.

I should add that I don't want my activities to be a stumbling block and justify to a Christian who struggles with alcholism, extra-marital sex, etc to think that it is ok for them to go to such places.
I don't have a problem with it either, but we chose to NOT be a stumbling block to others who do have a problem with it.

Back in college, I saw a lot of my friends do really stupid stuff when they got drunk, really stupid life-threatening stuff. Even within the last few years, I saw one of my friends in her thirties, a Christian, destroy her life by taking up drinking. My grandfather suffered dimentia the last 10 years of his life from drinking. A neighbor of mine lost his life in a car accident after someone who only had two beers rammed his truck into him as he was crossing the street on the way to the park. A friend of my ex-husband paid child support for 18 years after getting a little loose with his morals after an evening in a bar.

There are so many ways to hurt yourself and others after a little drinking that it isn't even something Christians should think about. Having a little wine for your health before bedtime is one thing. Drinking for recreation is something else altogether.

That's why Christians ought not go to bars, so they can avoid the temptation or occassion to sin.

[ZiSunka]

My wife likes to go out clubbing; believe me, I've seen this happen, because I've been in a lot of clubs until after midnight, or until they closed, or whatever.

But I don't think drinking and dancing have any causal relationship at all with what happens. These people are out looking to hook up. If they couldn't drink and couldn't dance, they'd go out to do something else, and find partners anyway. It has nothing to do with drinking and dancing; they'll make up other ways to display plumage if dancing isn't available.

But... Meanwhile, my wife and I can go out to the club, and, guess what, not have extramarital sex.

Dancing does not make us suddenly want to sleep with other people. Dancing is a recreational activity.

The people who are out cruising for sex are not innocent bystanders who had decided that extramarital sex was wrong, but then they went dancing and suddenly an evil dancing spirit made them have sex. They are people who went out with the specific intent of getting laid, and figured a club full of like-minded singles was a good place to go looking.
You have a built-in sex partner. Many people who go to bars don't. These are the vulnerable people. The alcohol reduces their inhibitions and they end up doing stupid things. Do they do it because of the alcohol? Yes. Do they do alcohol to give themselves an excuse to do it? Yes.

[Gold Dragon]

I don't have a problem with it either, but we chose to NOT be a stumbling block to others who do have a problem with it.

Back in college, I saw a lot of my friends do really stupid stuff when they got drunk, really stupid life-threatening stuff. Even within the last few years, I saw one of my friends in her thirties, a Christian, destroy her life by taking up drinking. My grandfather suffered dimentia the last 10 years of his life from drinking. A neighbor of mine lost his life in a car accident after someone who only had two beers rammed his truck into him as he was crossing the street on the way to the park. A friend of my ex-husband paid child support for 18 years after getting a little loose with his morals after an evening in a bar.

There are so many ways to hurt yourself and others after a little drinking that it isn't even something Christians should think about. Having a little wine for your health before bedtime is one thing. Drinking for recreation is something else altogether.

That's why Christians ought not go to bars, so they can avoid the temptation or occassion to sin.
I respect your decision in this matter lambslove and agree that irresponsible use of alcohol can really mess up lives.

[Busybee]

You have a built-in sex partner. Many people who go to bars don't. These are the vulnerable people. The alcohol reduces their inhibitions and they end up doing stupid things. Do they do it because of the alcohol? Yes. Do they do alcohol to give themselves an excuse to do it? Yes.
lambslove said it very well. I personally have no problem with drinking in moderation, although I choose not to drink at all because I hate the way it makes me feel. It gets a bit tricky though when speaking about public drinking. If a Christian or unbeliever sees one of us out drinking even a sip, will it be a stumbling block to them? Will it hurt your witness? Alot of times the answer is yes. Also, alcohol definitely makes people less inhibited.

Dancing among single people, like lambslove said, is where theres tons of room for lust, especially since they have no spouse to alleviate any built up desires.

I think culturally, that with exotic dancing coming to the scenes so strong, that's another thing that has made dancing so taboo (sorry if too strong a word, I'm sleep deprived and couldn't think of another http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_3_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)) . Speaking from experience, I know that alcohol, drugs, and exotic dancing go hand in hand and that's simply to lower inhibitions.

[GreenEyedLady]

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

I believe with all my heart that drinking is NOT good for a christian.

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Why did God say wine is a mocker??? Well just look what happened there in Isaiah. The whole point is.....WHY do you drink? How can drinking a strong drink be glory?

Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

I am posting these verses because God convicted me awhile ago about drinking and how it was wrong for me and my family. Anything we do in moderation our children will do in excess. The same goes for a church, whatever the pastor does, the congregation will do in excess.
So.........No drinking for me or my family.
I just have one question about those who are ok with drinking in moderation.
In what way does drinking glorify God?

[Busybee]

Whew have you given some food for thought Green. Although I don't drink, I'm an "in moderation person" and your post has certainly brought some prospective to me. Especially the following question "In what way does drinking glorify God?" I'm definitely going to take this to the Lord in prayer. Thanks for the verses as well!!

[Gold Dragon]

I just have one question about those who are ok with drinking in moderation.
In what way does drinking glorify God?The same way that drinking Coke, OJ and water glorify God. They don't. It isn't what you drink that brings glory to God, but how you drink it.

Daniel and the crew brought glory to God by drinking water and eating vegetables. Does that mean drinking water and eating vegetables always brings glory to God and doing otherwise doesn't? It was their obedience to God that brought God glory, not what they ate or drank.

However, alcohol does bring shame to God when...

1) you drink irresponsibly and get drunk
2) your drinking is a stumbling block for others struggling with alcoholism

Both of which I do not do.

You are welcome to feel that drinking is not for you. And I am sympathetic to those like lambslove who are surrounded by victims of reckless drinking and understand their attitudes towards it.

However, other Christians have prayerfully, carefully and honestly looked at all the verses in the bible about alcohol, including the ones you listed and concluded that drinking moderately and responsibly in the proper context is not prohibited. :Cheers: :wave:

[BBAS 64]

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

I believe with all my heart that drinking is NOT good for a christian.

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Why did God say wine is a mocker??? Well just look what happened there in Isaiah. The whole point is.....WHY do you drink? How can drinking a strong drink be glory?

Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

I am posting these verses because God convicted me awhile ago about drinking and how it was wrong for me and my family. Anything we do in moderation our children will do in excess. The same goes for a church, whatever the pastor does, the congregation will do in excess.
So.........No drinking for me or my family.
I just have one question about those who are ok with drinking in moderation.
In what way does drinking glorify God?
Good Day, Gel

I am not going to debate "your" convictions here that is not the purpose of this post, nor will I say that some ones lack of the same convictions as yours are wrong.

I do have one question though and I will not reply to your answer as it will stand as "your" understanding.

How does drinking coke,juice,water,coffee,tea glorify God? I would ask that you be as particular in your answer as you can be.

Peace to u,

Bill

[ZiSunka]

However, alcohol does bring shame to God when...

1) you drink irresponsibly and get drunk
2) your drinking is a stumbling block for others struggling with alcoholism

Both of which I do not do.

However, other Christians have prayerfully, carefully and honestly looked at all the verses in the bible about alcohol, including the ones you listed and concluded that drinking moderately and responsibly in the proper context is not prohibited. :Cheers: :wave:
You may be surrounded by people with alcohol problems and not even know it. A lot of born-agains got born-again because they needed God to help them escape from alcoholism. That person next to you in church might be an AA member, or trying to go it alone in getting and staying sober. It's for the sake of those people that I abstain, so as not to present alcohol as a recreational thing that is fun and desirable to someone who can't tolerate even one drink.

It's compassion for the unknown alcoholics that I abstain. You should prayerfully consider it, too. Your drinking may affect people other than yourself.

You're right, it's not prohibited, but compassion for your struggling brothers and sisters in Christ is required.

[Gold Dragon]

It's compassion for the unknown alcoholics that I abstain. You should prayerfully consider it, too. Your drinking may affect people other than yourself.

You're right, it's not prohibited, but compassion for your struggling brothers and sisters in Christ is required.
Thanks for the reminder, lambslove. I'll prayerfully keep that in mind.

[Melly Monster]

I have a friend who is getting married tomorrow who was born and raised in my Babtist church and her soon to be husband also born and raised in my church and are haveing danceing on ther wedding and in my church fellowship hall. Now I want be danceing simply cus my husband want be there with me.

[sunshinejennii]

Around here Baptists drink and Dance just as much as any other Christians, obviously there is variation among Christians but its not by denomination.

Having said that we still don't have wine in church, why? to be respectful for those who don't drink, either for purely biblical reasons or because they used to be alcoholics. Also we have youngish people taking communion and grape juice is cheaper! LOL nah I'm not sure the exact reasoning that my church in general has taken but I can fully understand the decision not to have alcohol in church. For one we aren't licensed!

In terms of dancing we regularly have barn dances, christian gigs(though i suppose thats more jumping and sweat), and we have a Performing arts company that includes dance!

[12volt_man]

I'm not a baptist, I'm an anabaptist, but the reason that dancing and drinking are frowned upon are that they so easily promote immorality. Dancing and drinking in a bar often lead to extra-marital sex, and even dancing alone can lead to bad decisions.

Huh?

The point of dancing in today's culture is to attract and arouse the opposite sex, so it's frowned upon.

I have to be honest with you, I play in bars all the time and I dance a lot. I have no idea what you're talking about. Among the people I know and come into contact with, dancing is just for fun.

Maybe you're just hanging out with a bad crowd?

[12volt_man]

No, it's more like banning porno magazines because some people use them to sin against themselves and their wives.

If you think that dancing and drinking don't lead to extra marital sex, you've never been inside a bar after midnight. That's when people start to pair up for going home to bed. It's the drinking that reduces their inhibitions and dancing that helps them decide who their bed partner is going to be.

So what about the vast, vast majority of people who drink and dance and don't do these things?

[BT]

Good Day, Gel

I am not going to debate "your" convictions here that is not the purpose of this post, nor will I say that some ones lack of the same convictions as yours are wrong.

I do have one question though and I will not reply to your answer as it will stand as "your" understanding.

How does drinking coke,juice,water,coffee,tea glorify God? I would ask that you be as particular in your answer as you can be.

Peace to u,

Bill

It doesn't that is the point (I think).


As for me, I get hammered at least 3 times a week and am a semi-pro break-dancer.

[BBAS 64]

It doesn't that is the point (I think).


As for me, I get hammered at least 3 times a week and am a semi-pro break-dancer.
Good Day, BT

Only 3 times wow what a rookie! :P

Bill

[Gold Dragon]

As for me, I get hammered at least 3 times a week and am a semi-pro break-dancer.
LOL. Bust some moves for us, BT. ;)

[GreenEyedLady]

However, alcohol does bring shame to God when...

1) you drink irresponsibly and get drunk
2) your drinking is a stumbling block for others struggling with alcoholism

Both of which I do not do.

You are welcome to feel that drinking is not for you. And I am sympathetic to those like lambslove who are surrounded by victims of reckless drinking and understand their attitudes towards it.

However, other Christians have prayerfully, carefully and honestly looked at all the verses in the bible about alcohol, including the ones you listed and concluded that drinking moderately and responsibly in the proper context is not prohibited. :Cheers: :wave:
I never said that alchol brings shame to God. God said wine is a mocker,Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Why did God say wine was a mocker? He did not say, IF you get drunk its a mocker. He specifically said wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging because it darkens our reason. There is no wine is a mocker IF you drink it in excess. God is really trying to show us here that it will hurt us in the long run. There is GOOD and GLORY when we are sober minded. We can glorify the Lord with sober minds because our minds and hearts are more powerful, our faith is powerful and glorifies HIM. With a couple of beers in us......we are not glorifying the Lord. We are ignoring the Lord and feeding our own desires.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Wow, that DOES means EVEN coke and TEA!!!!!!!!!! See there, I didn't say it HE did!

Glory be to GOD!!!!!!!!
:thumbsup:

[Maeyken]

my bf attends a Baptist church, and they had a dance as a fundraiser... I guess that means they think dancing is ok? ;)

[PaladinGirl]

I'm not a Baptist but I was raised Southern Baptist. Personally, I see nothing wrong with alcohol as long as you drink it in moderation. I would also refrain from drinking it if you have a history of alcoholism. As for dancing, I don't see anything wrong with most kinds of dancing. Remember, it was Paul (I think) that recommended that Timothy drink a little wine for his stomach.

1 Timothy 5:23

Ecclesiastes 3:4

Jeremiah 31:4

Jeremiah 31:13

[Sword-In-Hand]

I guess this is how conservative I am, but even when I go to places that serve alcohol, not bars mind you, since I don't go to them, but places like Red Lobster, Appleby's and so forth, I frown on people drinking "virgin" drinks. Particularly Christians drinking virgin drinks. Why? Because for the person you may know who enters the same restuarant and sees you drinking something that looks like an alcoholic drink has no idea that it isn't. It still appears to them you are drinking something alcoholic and alot of lost people in the world like to hold that against Christians who partake of any drink with alcohol in it. It could still be a stumbling block.

I have alot of friends who like to do the party scene, get drunk and all that, so drinking for me in any situation is out of the question. I can't be a stumbling block for them and I'm not going to give them the opportunity to say, "hey I thought you were a Christian, why you drinking?" That is used alot where I live.

As for the church it is in our bylaws that the pastor cannot partake of any wine as given in the qualifications of being an overseer in 1st Timothy 3:3. Also our church is full, praise God, of ex alcoholics and drug addicts, so it would be kind of stupid on our part to offer wine, albeit small, to probably a hundred people who struggled with it before.

As for dancing, it has never been brought up in our church as something we can or cannot do. It's just understood that no one comes to church and gets their freak on. We do interpretive movements which is a form of dance, but not really. But usually when someone mentions dancing the first vision to some is that of "bumping and grinding" which I think not only looks foolish, but can lead to other things as well. But on the other hand I truly believe we can dance for the Lord. We all know David did.

I suppose we just have to take into careful consideration of 1st Corinthians 10:31, "Therefore, whatever you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

BTW, there are alot of people I agreed with after reading the posts, GEL, and BT you are two of them and I can't remember the rest. I really support what you guys are saying, but BT, if you are going to be serious about drinking and partying, do it more than 3 times a week man! C'mon don't be weak! ;)

[kyzar]

hmmm, dancing is something I have a little contention with. I personally like it, i think its great exercise and a brilliant way to enjoy yourself. Of course that to me does not include 'lude' dancing, the type of stuff that is 'sexually connotated'... however i think verses that are used to 'promote' dancing from the old testament aren't appropraite because as far as i know all types of dancing mentioned in the OT (in the positive) are males only or females only, not the partenered dancing that we have today...

Drinking alcohol, yeah okay, there is no verse that says you should drink alcoholic beverages and no verse that says you shouldn't... Okay I know the 'drink a little wine for your stomach' but that is only medical, it doesn't say 'drink a little wine when you're thirsty'... I personally am not against drinking a little alcohol (not getting drunk!) as long as it doesn't cause any one else to stumble...

My views, enjoy and God Bless!!!

[AJ]

Lux,
From what I understand the reason why wine is NOT used in communion is because it is fermented, meaning it is not of the first fruits of the vine, but aged wine. Whenever God dealt with sacrifices it was always something unspotted. He always retained the first fruits of everything. Fermented wine is not a first fruit but a by product of something old and used.
Its not about not having alchol in the church, there is a deeper meaning to this. Please my brothers and sister, feel free to correct me or elaborate more on this for Lux.
GEL
Ps. As far as dancing goes, the deeper reason why dancing is a no-no is because it glorifies the body or ones body, not GOD.
Growing up Episcopal, we always used wine for communion... It was a bit of a change when I took communion at the Baptist church we are now attending and discovered grape juice in place of wine. I was always curious about it... But have never asked the question. I just assumed that it was to keep alcohol out of church... And even heard that it was to allow alcoholics to take communion without any risk of temptation. Thanks for the further explination! :) God Bless!

[AJ]

Oh... And my personal opinion as someone who has only been attending a Baptist church for a couple of years... I personally believe that having a glass of wine on occasion with dinner. And although I am not much of a dancer (yes... I have 2 left feet it seems...) I will dance a bit with my wife to keep her happy, since she really enjoys dancing. Usually just in the living room... Although we did dance one time out at the park that I proposed to her in, barefoot in the grass one night... But it was dark, so no one could see! It was VERY romantic... :)

[Glorianna]

Just curious here, and certainly not to debate, but I was wondering why Baptists object to these things? I can certainly understand not approving of getting drunk or MTV-style dancing, but I'm honestly curious as to why Baptists object to using alcohol in communion (or moderate consumption of alcohol at home), as well as to, let's say, ballroom-style dancing. I'm especially interested in the communion issue since Baptists are the only denom I know of that does this (although there are probably others, but *I* just don't know about them).

Thanks! :wave:

I think that a lot of people are scared that these two things (dancing and drinking) could lead to something worse. I go to a Christian university where those two things are rules and that's the reason.

[ZiSunka]

So what about the vast, vast majority of people who drink and dance and don't do these things?
You're right, not everyone does. But what about the people who do? Don't you care enough about them to give up a little selfish pleasure for their sake? You don't HAVE to go drinking and dancing in bars, and being seen doing those can really ding your witness to others.

I dare you to get drunk in a bar and then try to tell people that Jesus saves. Or just drink in a bar and then try to tell them that Jesus can remove all the temptation to get drunk.

I say, if you can't imagine evangelizing in a situation, you ought not put yourself in that situation.

[Man with Thorn]

When He had called the multitude to Himself He said to them:''Hear and understand : Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man'' Matthew 15: 10,11 (NKJV)


So Jesus said: ''Are you still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, false witness, blasphemies.'' Matthew 15 : 17-19 (NKJV)

Just a thought...

Thorn

[lismore]

Another reason for the use of juice that is more practical has to do with the possibility of recovering alcoholics in the body. If you were to give one of these people a small taste of wine it could really be a stumbling block...
Whoever the Son sets free is free indeed.

[Angieh]

I think that applies more to the Bible Baptist Churches... My sister and I we both raised in a "regular" Baptist Church... Dancing was allowed, as far as alcohol, I know we had church family that would have wine or a drink for occasions or in their homes.... My sister now goes to a Bible Baptist Church and I have a very close friend who also grew up in the same type of Baptist Church and they are against dancing and alcohol.... In fact, I was in NY with my sister and her family this summer and while we were at the NY State Fair the Oakridge Boys were playing there like they have done for many years and I was holding the hands of my little 3 year old nephew and he was dancing with me.... You know how we "dance" with little kids... My sister commented that she hoped no one from her church saw her in the company of her dancing sister!!! It's not all Baptist... Dancing is in the Bible - 2 Samuel 6:12-23, Exodus 15, Psalms 150, Luke 15:22-27, Matthew 14:1-12.. Of course, not mtv dancing.... Just my thoughts....:)

Angie

[puriteen18]

First off, "Baptists" today are not at all uniform with each other. The doctrine of Liberty of Conscience has been taken to an extreme it wasn't meant for, and that's why Baptists churches swing so wide. You never no what to expect.

About Drinking.....

This isn't really a Baptist thing. The idea of complete abstinence from alcohol in Baptists churches is only a little over a hundred years old.

This idea came around during the temperence movement of the 1800s. The Methodists used to be in on it too, but it continued longer with the Baptists than it did with them.

Before that Baptist have had no objection to alcohol, so long as you don't get drunk.

At Particular Atonement (strict Reformed) Baptists and Primitive Baptists Churches they use wine in communion. At the RB back home they don't believe it is right to use grape juice. These churches uphold Baptist traditions from the 1600s and 1700s. Their members even use wine in their homes at celebrations. "All things in moderation."

Before any of you start to get upset remember, Jesus provided the wine at the wedding party at Cana.


About Dancing.......

This is much older, but I really don't know of any normal Baptist churches that still object to dancing.

Abstinance from dancing is a Puritan idea that held over in the denominations that descended from Puritanism (prebyterians, congregationalist, and baptists) at least into the late 1800s.

Baptists did keep this idea a little longer than the other two, but now it is pretty much not even considered.

Something else, NOT ALL dancing was discouraged. Dancing can be a form of worship. Read Bunyan; he spoke of dancing as worship, as did other of his Puritan brethren.

The dancing that is shunned is what was called "promiscuious dancing", that is dancing with a partner.

For much of this kind of dancing it was thought that men and women took too much liberty with each other's bodies.

However, still not even all of this was discouraged.

Cromwell allowed English Country dancing (the kind you see in the movies based on Jane Austen Novels, like Emma and Sense and Sensibility).

The Pilgrims had dancing at one of their early celebrations for passage to America (not at Thanksgiving).

Just as another note, RBs and PBs still discourage what they consider vulgar dancing.

[GreenEyedLady]

I look at dancing as a way to glorify yourself. Now what kinda dancing are we talking about here? You mean dancing the way David danced out of PURE joy of the Lord?
Does this dancing involve nightclubs?
WHat kinda dancing is OK and what is not as far as the dancing that DOES NOT glorify GOd as David did.
GEL

[Man with Thorn]

Dancing, drinking, eating, wearing clothes, sex, music, earning money, telling jokes, playing sport .....

...these are all things which are a natural part of life on earth, and all of them have come under some condemnation at some time or another from a variety of sources, most-often underpinned by some or other religious zeal. But in almost every instrance, there has been an ulterior agenda hidden under a sometimes very well-constructed veneer of 'Godliness'.
And these are all things which if done in the proper manner, with the right frame of mind, and keeping the right perspective - the will and purpose of the Lord, can be good, positive, enjoyable things.

Take them out of the context of true obedience and submission to the Lord, and any one of them can become a damaging, negative, unhealthy, and ultimately bad thing. How many marriages have been ruined by an unhealthy addiction to Saturday sport?

[Lucky_Skunk]

But all reject wine for use in communion, right?
Why use wine and not grape juice?

[CelineDion]

Dancing is only exceptable if used in worship. At my church we use grape juice for communion and it works just fine.

[puriteen18]

Why use wine and not grape juice?Our LORD used wine. Why not use it?

[Lucky_Skunk]

Our LORD used wine. Why not use it?
Of course, grape juice isn't in the Bible.