Identification and Tradition

[JewishHeart]

While I personally do not believe in the Oral Torah and believe many of its traditions are anti-biblical ( such as "vitzivanu lehadlik nerot shabbatt"), I do believe some traditions have place in a messianic lifestyle. I do not believe we should "out-Jew" the orthodox and I do not believe we should see the oral Torah as having any authority in our lives as believers. I do, however, believe that some traditions should remain among Jewish believers for purposes of identification. What do I mean by this? The Jewish people have been persecuted in the diaspora through the Babylonian captivity, the pogroms, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Holocaust, etc. After all these attempts to dissimilate and destroy the Jewish people, Am Yisrael Chai ! It is only a testimony of the living God that they have survived. Most of what held them together through the diaspora and persecution is their traditions. God used unbiblical traditions to accomplish His plans. So this is why my wife and I light shabbatt candles ( changing the words of course), use an haggadah at Passover, sit Sheva when a relative dies, give our children a Bar/Bat Mitzva, get married under a chuppa with the breaking of glass, and any other tradition not found in the Tanach, but does not compromise the word of God.

If our traditions become mandatory then we are in trouble. If we get haughty by the traditions we keep and look down on the brothers who don't keep them then we are in trouble. If we place traditions in the place of Yeshua HaMashiach then we are in trouble. If we humbly identify as a Jewish people or as a Gentile ( like Ruth) with the traditions of the Jewish people to remember how God preserved us ( most of the biblical traditions by the way are also remembrances of God's preservation) , then we are doing it with the right heart.

[JewishHeart]

What thinks you?

[Henaynei]

While I personally do not believe in the Oral Torah and believe many of its traditions are anti-biblical ( such as "vitzivanu lehadlik nerot shabbatt")

What is anti-biblical about lighting the candles?? It is done before Shabbat starts, as I am sure you know. Please expound.

I do believe some traditions have place in a messianic lifestyle. I do not believe we should "out-Jew" the orthodox and I do not believe we should see the oral Torah as having any authority in our lives as believers. I do, however, believe that some traditions should remain among Jewish believers for purposes of identification.

The purpose, for most Torah positive MJs I know, in our observance of Torah (without Oral Torah it is impossible) is NOT identification!! It is obedience to G-d – He said do this and we try out best to obey.

What do I mean by this? The Jewish people have been persecuted in the diaspora through the Babylonian captivity, the pogroms, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Holocaust, etc. After all these attempts to dissimilate and destroy the Jewish people, Am Yisrael Chai !

Barukh HaShem!

It is only a testimony of the living G-d that they have survived. Most of what held them together through the diaspora and persecution is their traditions. G-d used unbiblical traditions to accomplish His plans. So this is why my wife and I light shabbatt candles ( changing the words of course), use an haggadah at Passover, sit Sheva when a relative dies, give our children a Bar/Bat Mitzva, get married under a chuppa with the breaking of glass, and any other tradition not found in the Tanach, but does not compromise the word of G-d.

In most cases you will find that those of us who attempt to keep Torah and the Traditions do not keep those Traditions that are contrary to Torah. It is, however, impossible to keep Torah without the Traditions (unless we think we are somehow called to make our own while shunning those of thousands of years – now THAT is looking down – LOL). Most MJ communities keep quite a few Traditions. What is really funny is that a lot of them think what they keeping is Torah, while other Torah commandments they think are Traditions!! Alas, there are just as many MJs who get all their teaching from the bema as there are Christians who get theirs from the pulpit.


If our traditions become mandatory then we are in trouble.

It sounds sometimes in your posts that you do not agree that keeping Torah IS Mandatory, for the Jew. One can not keep Torah without the Traditions unless you make up your own Traditions. G-d said most, if not all, of Torah was for all time (or a similar phrasing). For the Jew this did not mean “Until Yeshua comes and changes things.” Yeshua instructed us to follow the instructions of the Sanhedrin, i.e Oral Traditions, and so we should, unless it violates Torah.

If we get haughty by the traditions we keep and look down on the brothers who don't keep them then we are in trouble.

So far I have not seen any MJs in here say they were looking down on anybody – just that, while they would call brother and fellowship with most anyone who names the Name of Yeshua, they would not place themselves “under the teachership” of a believer who taught replacement theology or against Torah observance. Surely that is both their right and responsibility to have standards they believe to be biblical in choosing their teachers?

If we place traditions in the place of Yeshua HaMashiach then we are in trouble.

Yeshua kept most of the Oral Traditions and enjoined us to do the same. If you keep Torah to obey and love G-d and you really keep Torah you soon find that keeping Torah and the Traditions that enable us to keep Torah are the best possible way to get to truly know and honor Yeshua.

If we humbly identify as a Jewish people or as a Gentile ( like Ruth) with the traditions of the Jewish people to remember how God preserved us ( most of the biblical traditions by the way are also remembrances of God's preservation) , then we are doing it with the right heart.

I do not think THAT is the right heart.

The right heart is that one understand that G-d said these instructions (Torah) were required of His People Forever. They are not “optional” for the Jewish person who is truly seeking to follow the G-d of Avraham, Yitzkakh, v’Ya’acov.

We obey because G-d said if we love Him we will obey, and we do love Him.

This is a rush and I ask forbearance - I am running 10 min late for work and will not be able to respond until much later today!!

Shalom b'Shem Yeshua

[JewishHeart]

While I personally do not believe in the Oral Torah and believe many of its traditions are anti-biblical ( such as "vitzivanu lehadlik nerot shabbatt") - JewishHeart





What is anti-biblical about lighting the candles?? It is done before Shabbat starts, as I am sure you know. Please expound.-Heynanei


I never said lighting the candles was anti-biblical. If you understand Hebrew and read in the parentheses I expounded ( Vitzivanu lehadlik ner shabbatt) literally meaning " Who has commanded us to light the Shabbatt candles" The only problem is that there is no scripture in the Tanach commanding us to light the Shabbatt candles so saying this is stating a lie. My wife and I usually say " Sh' natan lanu et Yeshua Or HaOlam vitzivanu lehiyot Or l'goyim" that gave us yeshua the light of the world and commanded us to be a light to the nations.

I do not believe it is mandatory for a Jewish person to obey all 613 of the Torah, I do believe it is their calling. I believe a good reading of Romans 11 can clear this issue up.

God commanded Israel to be a light to the nations, by keeping Torah. This is more like a calling and not a demand for salvation.

If you read the heart of my post I encourage keeping some traditions from the Oral Law for identification. I never said Torah is for identification, this post is specifically talking about oral law and traditions not in the Tanach. I agree with you, as long as traditions aren't anti-biblical they are ok if you want to keep them. I personally keep a few ( oral Torah) for purposes of identification.

[Henaynei]

While I personally do not believe in the Oral Torah and believe many of its traditions are anti-biblical ( such as "vitzivanu lehadlik nerot shabbatt") - JewishHeart

What is anti-biblical about lighting the candles?? It is done before Shabbat starts, as I am sure you know. Please expound.-Heynanei

I never said lighting the candles was anti-biblical. If you understand Hebrew and read in the parentheses I expounded ( Vitzivanu lehadlik ner shabbatt) literally meaning " Who has commanded us to light the Shabbatt candles" The only problem is that there is no scripture in the Tanach commanding us to light the Shabbatt candles so saying this is stating a lie. My wife and I usually say " Sh' natan lanu et Yeshua Or HaOlam vitzivanu lehiyot Or l'goyim" that gave us yeshua the light of the world and commanded us to be a light to the nations.

I do not believe it is mandatory for a Jewish person to obey all 613 of the Torah, I do believe it is their calling. I believe a good reading of Romans 11 can clear this issue up.
1) First, allow me to say you are right - I was typing this in a hurry and kinda skipped the parenthetical statement - saw it on my way out the door - alas, too late :) .

G-d commanded that there be on fire kindled on Shabbat - True? and the Oral Traditions recognized that to obey that meant you had to kindle (and provide for the continuance of) the fire before Shabbat - so in essence G-d did command the lighting of some light and heat source before Shabbat.

2) The Ketuvim Natzrim can not say anything that is not supported by Torah - if I think that it does then I need to go back and re-examine my understanding. Loammi - G-d said these wer those who rejected His commandments. Romanim was wrtten essentially to the Gentiles in Rome:

Romanim 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Moshiakh Yeshua, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of G-d, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of G-d with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Yeshua HaMoshiakh our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Yeshua HaMoshiakh; 7 to all who are beloved of G-d in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from G-d our Father and the L-rd Yeshua HaMoshiakh.

Yes, there were definately Jews in Rome, but the majority of people and believers, the ones Rav Sh'aul states here are his calling and would therefore be his primarily intended audience, are gentiles, not Jews. Never in his teaching did Rav Sh'aul teach that Jews did not need to keep Torah/Traditions - he kept them himself until he died.

3) You present Romanim 11, I present Ya'acov 2, written specifically to the Jews:

Ya'acov 1:1 James, a bond-servant of G-d and of the L-rd Yeshua HaMoshiakh, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

God commanded Israel to be a light to the nations, by keeping Torah. This is more like a calling and not a demand for salvation.
Yes, He did!! And it is Torah that gives their lamp it's brightness. I said the b'rakha for the nerot that you use for years. It is beautiful and I respect your Tradition.

If you read the heart of my post I encourage keeping some traditions from the Oral Law for identification. I never said Torah is for identification, this post is specifically talking about oral law and traditions not in the Tanach. I agree with you, as long as traditions aren't anti-biblical they are ok if you want to keep them. I personally keep a few ( oral Torah) for purposes of identification.
I read that and specifically answered that - I strongly disagree that we should keep any, even one, of the commandments of Torah or the Traditions for the purposes of identification.

My view is that is screwy kavannah. And that is anti-biblical - it "ain't what G-d said."

[adriel]

What is anti-biblical about lighting the candles?? It is done before Shabbat starts, as I am sure you know. Please expound.

[
Shalom b'Shem Yeshua
Candles are pagan; see Alexander Hislop 'The Two Baylons', scripture describes lamps fuelled by Israeli olive oil, thats what a Menorah is for lamps not candles made from fleshly wax. Olive oil in scripture is a picture of Ruach ha Kodesh

[Pray4Isrel]

Candles are pagan; see Alexander Hislop 'The Two Baylons', scripture describes lamps fuelled by Israeli olive oil, thats what a Menorah is for lamps not candles made from fleshly wax. Olive oil in scripture is a picture of Ruach ha Kodesh
Um... where in the Torah does it say candles are pagan? Where in the entire Bible does it say candles are pagan? :scratch:

[Hix]

Il agree up to a point, lighting candles is a pagan practise that they do on sobbots, such as the winter solstice they light candles and put them on trees (which christianity got christmas from among other pagan practises). Regardless the Jewish people lighting candles on Shabbat did not derive from Pagans and is clearly mentioned in the Torah and in the Oral Torah also.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Henaynei]

Candles are pagan; see Alexander Hislop 'The Two Baylons', scripture describes lamps fuelled by Israeli olive oil, thats what a Menorah is for lamps not candles made from fleshly wax. Olive oil in scripture is a picture of Ruach ha Kodesh
:) Sorry, candles are an invention and one that increased the availability and uses of light throughout the world, just a dramatically as did the electric light bulb.

Everything man has ever invented has been corrupted by our adversary, but that does not negate the value of the invention, properly used. At the time Torah was given candles did not exist. :)

Your 'nick' is neat - it is only one letter different than my hebrew name - what does your 'nick' mean??

Shalom