Tricky Problem, need advice.

[BT]

Ok I'd like to gather your opinions on this situation.

There is a Christian man who (in his pre-salvation days) had a child out of wedlock. He did not see the child and didn't have a lot to do with him for various reasons. After his salvation he became involved with the child. The man was marrried and he and his wife maintained regular visits with the child. The mother of the child is unsaved and raised the child as such.

Now some years later the child (now 13) became too "out of control" for the mother to handle, so she contacted the father and asked if he would take the child. The father agreed and the child moved in with him, his wife, their child.

Now for a few months prior to obtaining the child the mother had been "rediscovering her catholic faith", however the faith was weak and the catholic part was more of convenience than any real understanding or agreement with the CC.

The child moves in with the father and out of convenience begins to attend a Catholic school (grade 8). To help the child the father and his wife have removed all negative influences from the child (rap music with swearing, secular music in general, bad friends, etc) and started showing the child the Christian way (by the way that they live their lives in front of him). They do devotions etc.

Now an issue has arrived. The Catholic school puts on dances. The parents are very against allowing this child to attend dances. The mother (from a distance) is highly objective of this decision and is constantly going at the father. Her reasoning for allowing the child to go to dances is that

a) they are at a Catholic School
b) The music will be "Catholic approved" whatever that means
c) Teachers will be there
d) The students will be kept in check


Now the father is really in a pickle. I don't personally know what the local Catholic Priest for the school parish would even think of these dances. Anyway the issue is...

Is the mother right? Should the child be allowed to attend these "catholic dances"? Or is the father right, and should he stick to his guns?

I'd appreciate your advice and opinions on this..


:help:

[Melly Monster]

If I'm not mistaken, Catholics do alot of danceing, I know us baptist (Or most baptist) Don't believe in it, I honestly don't see anything wrong with it, and if school dances are like they were when I was 13 then there not going to be really danceing standing around and talking to friends. No I don't see anything wrong with it, if he is going to be surrounded by other christians I honestly don't see anything wrong with it.

[ZiSunka]

I don't really see anything wrong with dances, as long as they are well-chaperoned and nothing ungodly is going on. That said, if the father has a problem with dances, and his son is living in his home as his child, then the child shouldn't be going to any dances. Period. It's not a question about dancing per se, it is about a father's authority to decide what is and is not healthy for his own child.

I say, the father's authority is final.

[Gold Dragon]

While I personally disagree with the father's opposition to dances, he has taken up responsiblity of raising the child and his authority as head of that household should be respected.

I haven't been a 13-year old for a long time but grade 8 dances were really lame. Everyone is still pretty awkward with their self identity and the opposite sex still has "cuties". If it is well chaperoned, there shouldn't be a problem.

Some compromise may be necessary in dealing with the birth mother just for the sake of getting along with her. Maybe if she agrees to chaperone, the father should let the son go.

[Crazy Liz]

BT, are you a parent? At age 30, I don't think you're likely to be a parent of a teenager, but if you are a parent even of a toddler, you probably have experienced time when mom & dad disagree about child rearing practices. These are hard enough when mom & dad are together and have a good relationship.

Most of these issues really don't have a whole lot to do with right and wrong per se. If dad thinks dancing per se is a sin, you add a moral issue that brings the problem to a more difficult level, but I'm going to assume that dad was raised Baptist, never went to dances, and is now trying to raise this troubled boy in the best way he knows how.

Mom has also tried to raise this boy the best she could, but made some mistakes and ran into some problems raising a boy without a full-time dad. Having been raised up to now by a single mom, he doesn't have a lot of experience observing the good and bad parts of an adult male-female relationship. Or else he's been raised by a mom and stepdad, which carries with it a whole different set of issues.

Anyway, this boy's mom is Catholic. This boy goes to a Catholic school. I think dad needs to be a bit more tolerant of Catholic mores. That's not a final answer to the question, but one piece of input.

Another factor that is EXTREMELY important to consider is the effect of the "gorilla rule" on this boy. (Where does an 800-pound gorilla sleep? Anywhere he wants!) Separated parents often unwittingly turn their teenage children into gorillas. There has already been one change of custody because a parent couldn't handle this boy. Under these circumstances, it is more important than ever that the parents resolve their child rearing conflict together, and that the boy know they both made the decision. The teenager's feeling of security and future discipline are both at stake in a big way. How mom and dad solve this problem is going to profoundly affect this child and the way he becomes a man.

Whether or not a troubled teen is allowed to go to dances is not a really big deal, either way. How mom and dad handle the decision is a very big deal. Dad needs to be able to negotiate with mom and at the same time be firm with the kid. Probably being able to fit in socially at his school is an important consideration, too. If the kid was previously getting in trouble, having healthy peer relationships is important. So I would lean toward saying, "When in Rome..." If the kid is going to a Catholic school, let him participate in school activities. At the same time, let him see that mom and dad decided this conflict together. In deciding, they considered (1) what the boy wanted, (2) what they thought was best for the boy, (3) the parents' values, and possibly some other factors, like the effect this decision might have on younger children in the home. If they are Baptist and go to public school, how will dad make decisions with a different mom about letting them go to dances? Or is he going to send them to a different kind of Christian school that doesn't have dances?

I would suggest that dad be open to letting the boy go to dances, and consider volunteering to be a chaperone. But I'm less concerned about the final decision than I am about the way it is made. If mom and dad both stick to their guns and let this question decided based on power ("He's in my house now and he'll go by my rules.") this will model power-based problem-solving, and pretty soon the boy will start saying, "If you won't let me have my way, I'll go back and live with mom." Avoiding this is a real biggie for all parents raising teenagers apart. In fact, it is crucial.

[GreenEyedLady]

No dances for my kids.
*Gel walks away with a bulleye on her back*

[Gold Dragon]

Under these circumstances, it is more important than ever that the parents resolve their child rearing conflict together, and that the boy know they both made the decision. The teenager's feeling of security and future discipline are both at stake in a big way. How mom and dad solve this problem is going to profoundly affect this child and the way he becomes a man.

...

I would suggest that dad be open to letting the boy go to dances, and consider volunteering to be a chaperone. But I'm less concerned about the final decision than I am about the way it is made. If mom and dad both stick to their guns and let this question decided based on power ("He's in my house now and he'll go by my rules.") this will model power-based problem-solving, and pretty soon the boy will start saying, "If you won't let me have my way, I'll go back and live with mom." Avoiding this is a real biggie for all parents raising teenagers apart. In fact, it is crucial.
Great advice Crazy Liz :thumbsup:

[ZiSunka]

I don't know...If the boy doesn't learn to respect the authority of his father now, when will he ever learn it? I think if the father objects to dances, the son has the responsibility to respect that objection without trying to manipulate the father by using his mother as the attack vehicle. It sounds like the son is waging war on the father's authority to me.

Everyone has to learn to submitt to someone in higher power than themselves, for this boy, that time is now.

[Gold Dragon]

I don't know...If the boy doesn't learn to respect the authority of his father now, when will he ever learn it? I think if the father objects to dances, the son has the responsibility to respect that objection without trying to manipulate the father by using his mother as the attack vehicle. It sounds like the son is waging war on the father's authority to me.

Everyone has to learn to submitt to someone in higher power than themselves, for this boy, that time is now.If you are responding to Crazy Liz's post, she isn't saying that the boy shouldn't respect the father. But that the boy should respect a decision that the mother and father both agreed upon because they talked it over like reasonable adults trying to find a suitable arrangement that is best for the son in both their eyes.

I think that if the father is to be deserving of respect and authority, he would take the initiative to open a dialogue with the mother and creatively find an arrangement that would work for everyone.

[ZiSunka]

But in the real world, that doesn't sound like it's going to happen. If the mother is constantly "going after the father," it doesn't sound like she has the ability to be a reasonable adult about this situation. She sounds like she's out of control.

Since the boy was out of control under her care, it sounds like she never taught him how to respect parental authority and it is going to be up to the father to teach him, with love, how to be respectful of his elders and those in charge. As we are to sumbit to God, children are to submit to their fathers who have their best interest in mind. If the father feels the boy shouldn't be at a dance, then we who know nothing else about need to defer to his better judgment for his son.

I think the father is automatically deserving of the son's respect because God says he is, not because the father capitulates to the boy's every desire or finds a way to negotiate to a happier settlement with the mother.

[Carrye]

Catholics don't disagree with dancing in the same way that Baptists do, so I doubt that the parish priest would have a problem with a dance such as you've described.

Also, as a point of clarification: Is the "mother" that you speak of, the biological mother or the father's wife? Either way, the father's word goes, but I'm just wondering. This situation isn't about a dance, or a Catholic event, I suspect. It's about authority - it always is.

[Gold Dragon]

I don't think we are disagreeing lambslove.

A couple of things to consider.

1) There are always two sides to every disagreement and we are only getting one side.

2) Children should always give their parents respect and submit to their authority. But the actions of parents in handling situations should also try to be deserving of that respect and authority.

I never said anything about giving the child whatever he/she wants.

[Crazy Liz]

But in the real world,

I'm so glad you're interested in talking about real world solutions.

that doesn't sound like it's going to happen. If the mother is constantly "going after the father," it doesn't sound like she has the ability to be a reasonable adult about this situation. She sounds like she's out of control.

It doesn't sound to me that way at all. She was part of making the decision that the boy would go live with dad. Whatever method they used for making that decision together, they should try to use to make this one together.

Since the boy was out of control under her care, it sounds like she never taught him how to respect parental authority and it is going to be up to the father to teach him, with love, how to be respectful of his elders and those in charge. As we are to sumbit to God, children are to submit to their fathers who have their best interest in mind. If the father feels the boy shouldn't be at a dance, then we who know nothing else about need to defer to his better judgment for his son.

He's asking for advice about how to exercise his judgment. Or at least BT is asking for advice.

How is just saying, "We defer to your better judgment - whatever you feel," a good answer to a request for advice? I think his request for advice indicates he has his son's best interest in mind and doesn't want to make a decision that is totally arbitrary based on his feelings and his need to assert authority.

I respect that he wants to do the best for his son. I am giving the benefit of my years of experience with thousands of parents raising children separately and warning of a landmine down the road if he chooses the power-based option without mom's support. This is "real world" advice, not advice based on some ideal hierarchy of authority that doesn't exist in this family.

I think the father is automatically deserving of the son's respect because God says he is, not because the father capitulates to the boy's every desire or finds a way to negotiate to a happier settlement with the mother.

He deserves his son's respect just by providing half his chromosomes? He hasn't been around much for the first 13 years of this boy's life. He can't just suddenly demand the boy's respect without mom's support. It may (or may not) be biblical, but it's not going to happen, psychologically. If mom doesn't respect dad, there's a good chance the son will just go back to live with mom and get into worse trouble than ever. Now, I think the fact that they agreed to change custody indicates that mom really does have at least some respect for dad. Dad also needs to have some respect for mom, who raised this child mostly without his help for 13 years.

[Crazy Liz]

I never said anything about giving the child whatever he/she wants.

:thumbsup:

There is a recognizable pattern that has been set up here, and the purpose of mom and dad coming to an agreement about this is precisely to give this kid the idea that he won't get whatever he wants. When parents are separated, the only way to guarantee parental authority is for the parents to agree on the major points. Otherwise, they give the kid a wedge to work them against each other and they will both eventually lose all authority and control.

If mom and dad were together and had both been raising him all his life, the pattern would be entirely different. However, the principle that if mom and dad each try to get control by means of power-plays, the child is going to learn to do the same thing, and the child will eventually gain control and have no respect for the parents.

There are several kinds of patterns that a family can set up to avoid this. One is the hierarchical pattern where dad is boss, which you seem to prefer. If mom goes along with this pattern it can work. Other patterns can work, too, as long as mom and dad cooperate, rather than letting their disagreements be decided by power plays.

[ZiSunka]

If God says a father is due respect, then in my book, that settles it. He didn't say, "Honor your mother and father if they have showed you respect and are willing to work out there differences in a civilized way, and if they are actively involved in every aspect of your life for as long as you are alive."

Instead, he said, "Honor your mother and father that you may live long in the land that I am giving you." And, "1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor your father and mother," F17 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eph+6:4&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1#F17) which is the first commandment with promise: 3 "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth." Ephesians 6:1-3

There is nothing conditional about those commandments. No disclaimer allowing the boy to play one against the other or to subvert his father's will. Maybe the father was out of the child's life before, but now he is the primary parent and his decision should be considered final. God says so.

[Gold Dragon]

lambslove. I'm not saying that "Honour your mother and father ..." is conditional. Only that as a father or mother, we should want to act in a manner that is deserving of that honour.

Yes the bible says that parents should always be given that honour, whether it is deserved or not. But wouldn't it be much better if it was given and deserved?

[jcright]

Is the mother right? Should the child be allowed to attend these "catholic dances"? Or is the father right, and should he stick to his guns?

I'd appreciate your advice and opinions on this..


:help:
Interesting question BT. I don't think this has a surface level type of answer.

Personally, I am for dancing. Let me clarify that...I am for certain kinds of dancing. Here's my thought: Dancing, in and of itself, is a neutral activity, therefore, it's what you do with the dancing that would make it wrong. I think that free style dancing that you see at the bars (if you're like me and you frequented the dance clubs before you were saved) is wrong. That, typically, has a sexual atmosphere (for lack of a better word) about it that is intentional and encouraged among the participants (not necessarily by all, but its my thought by the majority). On the other hand, you have structured dancing like line, swing, square, box, waltz, etc. that I think are fun, good exercise, and, done properly, not provocative and therefore not encouraging sin.

Is the mother right? I guess that depends on how much thought she put into this. Does she know what kind of dancing is going on? Is there a dress code? What kind of chaperoning will there be? What kind of music will be played? I guess the sum question would be: Has she thought this through enough to know that this dance party won't outright encourage sin?

Should the father stick to his guns? Is there a passage in the bible that says thou shall not dance? I think I would encourage the father to investigate the dance. Even if he doesn't allow his son to go to the first dance, the father can volunteer as a chaperone and see what it is like for himself. If he still doesn't like it, then he can still say no. At this point, I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of his decision which I'm sure he'll take to prayer.

Okay, that's my $.02 worth...hope it helps.

[Crazy Liz]

If God says a father is due respect, then in my book, that settles it. He didn't say, "Honor your mother and father if they have showed you respect and are willing to work out there differences in a civilized way, and if they are actively involved in every aspect of your life for as long as you are alive."

Instead, he said, "Honor your mother and father that you may live long in the land that I am giving you." And, "1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor your father and mother," F17 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eph+6:4&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1#F17) which is the first commandment with promise: 3 "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth." Ephesians 6:1-3

There is nothing conditional about those commandments. No disclaimer allowing the boy to play one against the other or to subvert his father's will. Maybe the father was out of the child's life before, but now he is the primary parent and his decision should be considered final. God says so.

Yes, but how do you teach a 13-year-old to keep this commandment?

If mom takes the boy back over this disagreement (or the next one or the one after that) then she is teaching him not to obey this commandment, and dad will have lost the opportunity to teach it to his son.

[Crazy Liz]

Should the father stick to his guns?

He should consider the scriptures in making this decision. Ephesians 6:4 Colossians 3:21

[ZiSunka]

He should consider the scriptures in making this decision. Ephesians 6:4And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.Colossians 3:21Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
I think you are using those incorrectly to justify your idea that the father should let the boy go to the dance. Those passages are refering to being consistent with the children, not to giving in to their demands. Wrath comes from being inconsistent and brutal, not from making the decision that a child can't go to a school dance. If the boy becomes wrathful because of that, he has some deeper emotional issues that will require counselling and perhaps hospitalization. Becoming wrathful because you don't get your way on a ittle thing like a dance is a pathology called narcisism.

[ZiSunka]

Yes, but how do you teach a 13-year-old to keep this commandment?

If mom takes the boy back over this disagreement (or the next one or the one after that) then she is teaching him not to obey this commandment, and dad will have lost the opportunity to teach it to his son.
You don't teach it to him by being wishy-washy. Children need boundaries, and giving in just to keep the mother quiet is teaching him that there are no boundaries if you throw a hissy-fit. It will teach the boy that tantrums are the key to getting everything you want. If the boy can't accept a no over such a little thing like a dance, he'll never be able to respect his father's decisions over bigger things, like not driving the family car until he has a driver's license, or no pot parties in the house. Once a child learns that dad can be manipulated by emotional outbursts, the cause is lost and the child might as well raise himself, because at that point, he has no real parents.

[Crazy Liz]

I think you are using those incorrectly to justify your idea that the father should let the boy go to the dance.

Not at all. I think if this is really a big deal, then BOTH PARENTS SHOULD DECIDE whether the boy should be allowed to go to dances.

Those passages are refering to being consistent with the children, not to giving in to their demands. Wrath comes from being inconsistent and brutal, not from making the decision that a child can't go to a school dance. If the boy becomes wrathful because of that, he has some deeper emotional issues that will require counselling and perhaps hospitalization. Becoming wrathful because you don't get your way on a ittle thing like a dance is a pathology called narcisism.

LL, it's a much, much, much bigger question than that. It has to do with raising children by parents who are separated.

If mom and dad agree not to let him go to the dance, that would be fine. If the parents don't agree, there is a great risk that a pattern will be set into play that will result in the parents always giving in to the boy's demands because the child will just go (or threaten to go) live with the parent who will allow him to do the next thing. That would be wrath-provoking inconsistency, if not brutality.

Have you ever seen a teenager with separated parents turn into an 800-pound gorilla? It's not pretty. It's a tragedy. The parents have to establish a pattern of agreeing, or at least backing each other up on major decisions to avoid this pattern. This is not giving in to the child. It is being firm with the child, with the mom's agreement. It is also a considered decision, and not an arbitrary one. This not only will gain the parent respect in the child's eyes, but it will also help the child learn to use wisdom and not be hasty or arbitrary when he has his own decisions to make.

I guess you misunderstood. I don't really care whether the kid goes to the dance or not. I care that the parents treat this first parenting conflict in a way that will establish their authority and gain the boy's respect. In order to do that, the parents have to agree.

[Razorbuck]

What confusion and discord is sowed when we wander from God's perfect plan for the family!

It seems to me that if the father in this case has made a decision based on his convictions and the Word the matter should be settled.

He is called to be the spiritual leader in his home, and has decided it would be detrimental to his 13 yr. old son (and I heartily agree) to attend this dance. What more needs to be said?

I agree 100% that mom and dad should present a united front to this child, but that looks in this case to be unlikely at best. What is to be done in this situation? Should Dad compromise his convictions? To what end? What would this teach the boy?

In what way would obeying his father in this case provoke the boy to wrath? There is no unreasonable severity here, in what way does Colossians 3:21 apply?

Peace to all

[ZiSunka]

Not at all. I think if this is really a big deal, then BOTH PARENTS SHOULD DECIDE whether the boy should be allowed to go to dances.



LL, it's a much, much, much bigger question than that. It has to do with raising children by parents who are separated.

If mom and dad agree not to let him go to the dance, that would be fine. If the parents don't agree, there is a great risk that a pattern will be set into play that will result in the parents always giving in to the boy's demands because the child will just go (or threaten to go) live with the parent who will allow him to do the next thing. That would be wrath-provoking inconsistency, if not brutality.

Have you ever seen a teenager with separated parents turn into an 800-pound gorilla? It's not pretty. It's a tragedy. The parents have to establish a pattern of agreeing, or at least backing each other up on major decisions to avoid this pattern. This is not giving in to the child. It is being firm with the child, with the mom's agreement. It is also a considered decision, and not an arbitrary one. This not only will gain the parent respect in the child's eyes, but it will also help the child learn to use wisdom and not be hasty or arbitrary when he has his own decisions to make.

I guess you misunderstood. I don't really care whether the kid goes to the dance or not. I care that the parents treat this first parenting conflict in a way that will establish their authority and gain the boy's respect. In order to do that, the parents have to agree.
I've seen my nephew deal with inconsistency between his father and stepmother over similar issues (like how he should cut his hair or what he should have for lunch), and he ended up throwing his hands up in the air over it and living with and loving the parent who most consistently kept the boundaries. He is now 20 and turned out great. It was exasperating for him for his stepmother to manipulate his father with emotional blackmail, and when he turned the age where he could decide for himself where to live, he went to live permanently with his mother, who was consistent and firm as well as loving. Kids want boundaries and this boy is probably hoping that his father wins the argument so he can have consistency and fairness in his otherwise flighty life.

[ZiSunka]

What confusion and discord is sowed when we wander from God's perfect plan for the family!

It seems to me that if the father in this case has made a decision based on his convictions and the Word the matter should be settled.

He is called to be the spiritual leader in his home, and has decided it would be detrimental to his 13 yr. old son (and I heartily agree) to attend this dance. What more needs to be said?

I agree 100% that mom and dad should present a united front to this child, but that looks in this case to be unlikely at best. What is to be done in this situation? Should Dad compromise his convictions? To what end? What would this teach the boy?

In what way would obeying his father in this case provoke the boy to wrath? There is no unreasonable severity here, in what way does Colossians 3:21 apply?

Peace to all
Father knows best. :thumbsup:

[Crazy Liz]

You don't teach it to him by being wishy-washy. Children need boundaries, and giving in just to keep the mother quiet is teaching him that there are no boundaries if you throw a hissy-fit. It will teach the boy that tantrums are the key to getting everything you want. If the boy can't accept a no over such a little thing like a dance, he'll never be able to respect his father's decisions over bigger things, like not driving the family car until he has a driver's license, or no pot parties in the house. Once a child learns that dad can be manipulated by emotional outbursts, the cause is lost and the child might as well raise himself, because at that point, he has no real parents.

LL, this is pretty elementary advice for parents raising a child together. If dad puts his foot down and mom throws a hissy fit and takes the kid back home or takes dad to court, both parents have lost all authority over this child. The end. Finito. That's all she wrote. They will turn this child into an 800-pound gorilla. It may take another year or two before he's joyriding and smoking pot, etc., but stuff like that is going to happen. You're right.

I really do agree with you about the basic principle of parents asserting authority. I just understand better than you do how to apply this principle when the parents are not living together. When the parents are not together, they still have to solve parenting problems together. You don't want dad to let mom or the kid throw a hissy fit and win. I don't want that, either. But he has no control over mom. They are not married. They don't live together. They can take each other to court over their parenting disputes whenever they want. If they do this a few times, eventually the judge will throw up his or her hands and let the kid live wherever he wants. Dad needs to understand this pattern and not make a decision right now that will lead down that path. The only sure way to avoid that path is for mom an dad to agree on major parenting decisions, and present a united front to the kid once the decision is made. Dad needs to persuade mom about the importance of agreeing on major decisions. If he ends up changing his mind about the dance, but getting mom to understand the importance of working together to establish parental authority, he will have "won" on the more important matter. Mom and dad will have made a parenting decision together, and they will all benefit.

[Crazy Liz]

What confusion and discord is sowed when we wander from God's perfect plan for the family!

True, but that happened 14 years ago and can't be changed now.

[Crazy Liz]

I've seen my nephew deal with inconsistency between his father and stepmother over similar issues (like how he should cut his hair or what he should have for lunch), and he ended up throwing his hands up in the air over it and living with and loving the parent who most consistently kept the boundaries. He is now 20 and turned out great. It was exasperating for him for his stepmother to manipulate his father with emotional blackmail, and when he turned the age where he could decide for himself where to live, he went to live permanently with his mother, who was consistent and firm as well as loving. Kids want boundaries and this boy is probably hoping that his father wins the argument so he can have consistency and fairness in his otherwise flighty life.

OK, maybe we're understanding this situation differently. I thought it was dad and mom who were in disagreement, not dad and stepmom.

BTW, a lot of gorilla kids do turn out OK in the end. I'm glad your nephew did. :thumbsup:

[Razorbuck]

I really do agree with you about the basic principle of parents asserting authority. I just understand better than you do how to apply this principle when the parents are not living together. When the parents are not together, they still have to solve parenting problems together. You don't want dad to let mom or the kid throw a hissy fit and win. I don't want that, either. But he has no control over mom. They are not married. They don't live together. They can take each other to court over their parenting disputes whenever they want. If they do this a few times, eventually the judge will throw up his or her hands and let the kid live wherever he wants. Dad needs to understand this pattern and not make a decision right now that will lead down that path. The only sure way to avoid that path is for mom an dad to agree on major parenting decisions, and present a united front to the kid once the decision is made. Dad needs to persuade mom about the importance of agreeing on major decisions. If he ends up changing his mind about the dance, but getting mom to understand the importance of working together to establish parental authority, he will have "won" on the more important matter. Mom and dad will have made a parenting decision together, and they will all benefit.

I agree with your logic, and appreciate your heart. I wonder if your approach may be just a bit too pragmatic, though.

Does the goal of agreement between the parents supercede the goal of submission to godly authority by all parties? Are we leaving God out of this equation?

I am a stepfather and can identify so much with this situation. Much like your suggested course in this case I often comprimised my standards in the name of unity when making decisions for my new children.

God has shown me, though, that this is not necessary. He told me in His Word to fulfill my ministry as a father, to bring my children up in the fear and nurture of the Lord and He would bless my efforts, He would never leave me nor forsake me. He has performed this and so much more. My family is of one heart in Christ and things couldn't be better. Things worked out and the discord I feared so badly never came to pass thanks to His blessing.

We must step out of the boat in all areas of our lives, even ones as difficult and scary as these. Trust Him. He will bring it to pass.

God bless you, friend.

[ZiSunka]

LL, this is pretty elementary advice for parents raising a child together. If dad puts his foot down and mom throws a hissy fit and takes the kid back home or takes dad to court, both parents have lost all authority over this child. The end. Finito. That's all she wrote. They will turn this child into an 800-pound gorilla. It may take another year or two before he's joyriding and smoking pot, etc., but stuff like that is going to happen. You're right.

I really do agree with you about the basic principle of parents asserting authority. I just understand better than you do how to apply this principle when the parents are not living together. When the parents are not together, they still have to solve parenting problems together. You don't want dad to let mom or the kid throw a hissy fit and win. I don't want that, either. But he has no control over mom. They are not married. They don't live together. They can take each other to court over their parenting disputes whenever they want. If they do this a few times, eventually the judge will throw up his or her hands and let the kid live wherever he wants. Dad needs to understand this pattern and not make a decision right now that will lead down that path. The only sure way to avoid that path is for mom an dad to agree on major parenting decisions, and present a united front to the kid once the decision is made. Dad needs to persuade mom about the importance of agreeing on major decisions. If he ends up changing his mind about the dance, but getting mom to understand the importance of working together to establish parental authority, he will have "won" on the more important matter. Mom and dad will have made a parenting decision together, and they will all benefit.
In an ideal world, yes, all of them would get together and make a good decision.

[Crazy Liz]

I agree with your logic, and appreciate your heart. I wonder if your approach may be just a bit too pragmatic, though.

My approach is definitely pragmatic.

Does the goal of agreement between the parents supercede the goal of submission to godly authority by all parties? Are we leaving God out of this equation?

I hope not. :prayer:

I am a stepfather and can identify so much with this situation. Much like your suggested course in this case I often comprimised my standards in the name of unity when making decisions for my new children.

It sounds like mom and dad are letting you make the decisions for their children, so everything is working out.

As far as "standards" go, BT left ambiguous the degree to which this is really an issue of his friend's firmly-held convictions about what is right and wrong, or only his preference, based on Baptist culture and traditions, perhaps, and perhaps based on the particular disciplines he and his family are using to try to change things for the boy. I must admit I assumed this probably wasn't a really firm conviction because he's sending the boy to a Catholic school. He seems to be at least somewhat tolerant of differences.

God has shown me, though, that this is not necessary. He told me in His Word to fulfill my ministry as a father, to bring my children up in the fear and nurture of the Lord and He would bless my efforts, He would never leave me nor forsake me. He has performed this and so much more. My family is of one heart in Christ and things couldn't be better. Things worked out and the discord I feared so badly never came to pass thanks to His blessing.

We must step out of the boat in all areas of our lives, even ones as difficult and scary as these. Trust Him. He will bring it to pass.

God bless you, friend.

I appreciate your heart here, too. Prayerfully making a decision and having it work out is a good thing. Being arbitrary because of one's position as father is not. If this dad takes a provocative attitude with mom in order to show her who's boss, he's likely to end up with mom coming to get the child or taking him back to court. Dad's attitude here is key.

Now, if he's prayed about this and does not act arbitrarily, provocatively or arrogantly with mom or the boy, great. In reading the posts above that say things like "whatever dad feels is right," I did not detect that kind of attitude. People were encouraging him simply to assert his authority and not to stop and think, listen (to God, the kid, mom, his wife, etc.) and pray about it first. I think he's wise asking BT for advice. He wants to make a good decision. My advice above all is it doesn't matter that much about the dance, but his attitude matters a lot. If he sets this up as a power play, and not as a thoughtful, prayerfully considered decision that takes the interests and needs of the whole family into consideration, he will likely do a lot more damage to this child than he realizes, because he will have set a course toward turning a child into a gorilla.

[ZiSunka]

OK, maybe we're understanding this situation differently. I thought it was dad and mom who were in disagreement, not dad and stepmom.

BTW, a lot of gorilla kids do turn out OK in the end. I'm glad your nephew did. :thumbsup:
It is the dad and mom, not the stepmom, but in my nephew's case, it was the stepmother who was the gorilla. My nephew was always a good kid, more or less, never a gorilla. Although he didn't always like it when his mother and stepfather made a decision in his best interest, they didn't let his non-custodial father supercede their decisions and the boy became a better man for it. Even when the father and stepmother acted like the proverbial gorillas, my sister and her husband stood firm and didn't give in to emotional bullying, just as the parents in this example should. When Greg tried emotional bullying, they stood firm and eventually he learned that blackmail doesn't work and that he sometimes needs to accept things that are in his best interest even if he doesn't know why. Just like we have to learn to accept God's authority in our lives even when we don't like it.

The father is the model of God for this boy and if the father abdicates and allows the mother's hissy-fits alter his course, then the boy will grow up thinking that God can be manipulated in the same way and will grow to resent them both, earthly father and Heavenly Father.

[ZiSunka]

INow, if he's prayed about this and does not act arbitrarily, provocatively or arrogantly with mom or the boy, great. In reading the posts above that say things like "whatever dad feels is right," I did not detect that kind of attitude. People were encouraging him simply to assert his authority and not to stop and think, listen (to God, the kid, mom, his wife, etc.) and pray about it first. I think he's wise asking BT for advice. He wants to make a good decision. My advice above all is it doesn't matter that much about the dance, but his attitude matters a lot. If he sets this up as a power play, and not as a thoughtful, prayerfully considered decision that takes the interests and needs of the whole family into consideration, he will likely do a lot more damage to this child than he realizes, because he will have set a course toward turning a child into a gorilla.
I didn't read that into any of the posts that said dad should be obeyed. No one said that dad didn't have to make a good, responsible decision or that he shouldn't pray about it. They just said that once dad makes his decision, that decision MUST be respected because God says so.

No one encouraged him to throw his weight around for the sake of asserting some warped power play. Everyone encouraged him to do what he thought was best because as the father, it is his responsibility to do so.

[kayanne]

Crazy Liz, you are showing so much wisdom in this thread! I pray that this situation about a dance doesn't turn into a huge battle, because in the scope of things this is SO little (the dance, not the issue of dad's authority).

Yes, the Bible says "children obey your parents" and that command is directed at the children. But that doesn't mean that a parent is wise to issue commands and orders "just because I said so" and think that he is being a godly parent by demanding obedience to his every whim. Man oh man---that is the perfect recipe for a very rebellious child!

I really think this dad needs to step back and look at the big picture--it's a school dance for pete's sake. I'm not a big fan of school dances myself, but particularly in 8th grade, as others have said, it's just going to be a time to stand around and chat mostly. I see it as a great thing that this boy even wants to be involved in an extracurricular activity!

I have 3 sons myself, and we were pretty strict disciplinarians, homeschooled, tried to keep all 3 of them exactly in line, etc etc. We weren't exactly drill sargeants, but we expected to be obeyed and expected our authority to be respected. But when our oldest (now 18) hit the age of 12-13, he really started being resentful of the "tight reins" we kept on him. He just wanted to start exercising a little independence, and grew to despise being homeschooled, not going to movies, not being allowed to listen to any secular music, etc. He became a very difficult teen for a couple of years. It was only after we realized that he was really too old for us to be so ridiculously strict with him, that we started really seeing improvement in his attitude. When we started letting him follow his own convictions (to an extent, there were certainly lines that couldn't be crossed), and giving him more freedoms (again, within reason), and showing him that we trusted his own faith to lead him toward wise decisions, that he really matured as a Christian. He is awesome now! He is so on fire for the Lord!! He's at a baptist college now, is strong in his faith, and is such a joy to us.

Sure, we COULD have said "NO!! You cannot listen to ANY secular music! NO!! You can NEVER go to ANY movies! NO!! You cannot go to the dance that your friend at the public school invited you to!" We could have lectured him about children obeying their parents, blah blah blah----but I think his frustration would have increased, his faith would have been squashed under the weight of our convictions (which we now don't even really hold, regarding the secular music/movies/dances, etc).

But by choosing to think more in terms of "not provoking our children to anger", and by being willing to reconsider some of our decisions and opinions, our son gained a lot more respect for us, and in the process became one of the most wonderful young men I know! He is loved and respected by everyone who knows him (one of the proudest moments of my life was at an awards ceremony at his Christian school, when the entire section of teachers gave him a standing ovation when he came forward for one of his awards. I had never seen that happen for any student before!) I'm not trying to brag--I just praise the Lord that He gave us the wisdom and humility to look beyond our desire to be OBEYED, and to really see what was best for our son. He changed from an angry, hateful, resentful kid who, frankly, I didn't even want in my house, into someone I am so proud of that I get tears in my eyes when I think about him. (and I miss him SO much now that he's 1200 miles away at college!)

So BT, please tell your friend to consider allowing the boy to attend the dance if the boy is really longing to go. Certainly the father can discuss WHY he personally has concerns about dances (ie unmarried people shouldn't have their arms around each other, or whatever else he may be concerned about). He can pray with the boy, asking God to help him keep his heart pure in regard to girls, and that the boy would be a good friend to others at this school event, etc. Dad can show this boy some trust, and in doing so, gain much more respect than he will ever get by trying to demand it.

[Iollain]

Ok I'd like to gather your opinions on this situation.

There is a Christian man who (in his pre-salvation days) had a child out of wedlock. He did not see the child and didn't have a lot to do with him for various reasons. After his salvation he became involved with the child. The man was marrried and he and his wife maintained regular visits with the child. The mother of the child is unsaved and raised the child as such.

Now some years later the child (now 13) became too "out of control" for the mother to handle, so she contacted the father and asked if he would take the child. The father agreed and the child moved in with him, his wife, their child.

Now for a few months prior to obtaining the child the mother had been "rediscovering her catholic faith", however the faith was weak and the catholic part was more of convenience than any real understanding or agreement with the CC.

The child moves in with the father and out of convenience begins to attend a Catholic school (grade 8). To help the child the father and his wife have removed all negative influences from the child (rap music with swearing, secular music in general, bad friends, etc) and started showing the child the Christian way (by the way that they live their lives in front of him). They do devotions etc.

Now an issue has arrived. The Catholic school puts on dances. The parents are very against allowing this child to attend dances. The mother (from a distance) is highly objective of this decision and is constantly going at the father. Her reasoning for allowing the child to go to dances is that

a) they are at a Catholic School
b) The music will be "Catholic approved" whatever that means
c) Teachers will be there
d) The students will be kept in check


Now the father is really in a pickle. I don't personally know what the local Catholic Priest for the school parish would even think of these dances. Anyway the issue is...

Is the mother right? Should the child be allowed to attend these "catholic dances"? Or is the father right, and should he stick to his guns?

I'd appreciate your advice and opinions on this..


:help:

He is a little bit on the young side to be going to dances, imo. Don't they have any other social events where the kids can be together? They grow up too fast as it is. Maybe they could offer him a trip to McDonald's for a Happy Meal instead. ;) ...nah that probably won't work..

[seebs]

I think that any time you start talking about "sticking to your guns", you ought to pause and consider whether a less confrontational approach might help. I do tend to think the father's right to raise the kid as he sees fit is a real one... But that said, I don't think a dance at a Catholic school is gonna get anyone in any trouble.

But... Always keep an eye out for chances to reconcile, even a little, chances to build bridges, chances to be charitable. These matter a great deal, and should never be overlooked.

[Cright]

Hi BT,

I love dancing.. it is one of my main sources of exercise (primarily salsa and other latin dances). If I hadn't started off at school dances I might never have learned to dance.. it's great because it really uses my mind, I have to count to the music, follow my lead dance "in a line" sometimes dance "on 1" sometimes "on 2" of the music ect.
I've only been to 1 or 2 dances at the Catholic Church, and I was the same age 12-13. They were well chaperoned.. and nothing inappropriate was allowed. The teachers/volunteers had no problem asking someone to leave the dance floor.
I would encourage the father to volunteer to chaperone the dance if he's concerned. Another idea is to have the father chaperone this dance.. to decided if his child is allowed to attend the next one (as there are usually a few during the school year).
I think the father and his wife should compromise, but being that the husband is the father of the boy and his wife is not the mother of the boy the father definatly needs to be the final decision maker.

My .02

Carina

[Monica02]

But that said, I don't think a dance at a Catholic school is gonna get anyone in any trouble.

.
As long as the girls do not wear black patent shoes.

[Cright]

As long as the girls do not wear black patent shoes.
what do the shoes have to do with it?


Curious...

[Monica02]

what do the shoes have to do with it?


Curious...
It is a joke. Black patent shoes reflect up. You know-a reflection of what is under the girls skirt. I guess it is a Catholic joke.

[ZiSunka]

I only have to think a little while about when my dad wouldn't let me do something I really wanted to do to know that he actually did have my best interests at heart, and he saved me from things that either would have hurt me or that I just wasn't ready for. My dad loved me enough to sometimes say no, even though it might have made me mad at the time.

My dad reluctantly let me go to school dances at that age because my mother thought it would be good for my social development, and I can tell you from experience that the rejection you feel from not being asked to dance by the cute boys can stay with you for a lifetime. My dad really did know best, because he could see that I wasn't ready for the kind of event at that age. Damage done, and 30 years later, I'm still awkward around the cute guys because I'm just waiting to be rejected again.

It didn't seem to occur to anyone that the father might think the son is just too young to handle boy-girl relationships and doesn't want him to go to dances because of the temptations he might find there. It doesn't seem to matter that the father knows the boy better than any of us ever will, and knows better what the boy can handle or can't handle. Maybe he is worried that his son is too young for the pressures of having to ask a girl to dance. 14 is too young to be pairing off into couples anyway. Dances were lame when I went to them. The boys on one side making lewd jokes about the girls on the other side, nobody dancing except the kids who had already paired off into couples. Why push the kid into either a romantic relationship so young or to face the possibility that he would lose self-esteem if he asked a girl to dance and she said no? He's got his whole life to form romantic relationships when he's older and more ready to handle it.

Instead of being hard on the father, why not assume that he carefully and prayerfully thought through the problem and decided that dancing isn't for his young son quite yet?

[Crazy Liz]

Instead of being hard on the father, why not assume that he carefully and prayerfully thought through the problem and decided that dancing isn't for his young son quite yet?

Quite simple. Dad has asked for advice because he hasn't decided yet.

[Cright]

It is a joke. Black patent shoes reflect up. You know-a reflection of what is under the girls skirt. I guess it is a Catholic joke.
.... maybe I'm just a lil slow :blush:

[Monica02]

.... maybe I'm just a lil slow :blush:
Naw! There is a play floating around titled " Do Black Patent Leather Shoes Really Reflect Up?". You probably just never heard of the play. :thumbsup:

[Crazy Liz]

Ever see http://www.theatermania.com/images/show/logo/001792logo.jpg?