Reformationists, an honest question.

[PatrickM]

As God is my witness, I need to know this. Can I be saved by believing in my heart Christ, as the Eternal Son of God, second Person of the trinity, paid for my sins by dying on the cross, and was resurrected for my justification, and not, in my lifetime adhere to TULIP?

Is 1 Cor 15:3,4; Acts 4:12; 16:31; Eph 1:12-14 enough to secure my place in heaven without ever coming to agree with Calvinism's 5 points?

Let's be clear on this. I believe this in my heart of hearts, it is not merely an intellectual ascent. And not some ambiguous beliefe in "God", please refer to paragraph one above.

Or am I merely deluded by thinking I have a personal relationship with Christ? Am I therefore, based on the above information, going to hell?

This is an honest, humble question. Please to not engage in the merits of TULIP, etc. There is plenty elsewhere.

And if the above is not sufficient, what else, “sola scriptura” is necessary to obtain eternal life?

[II Paradox II]

Let's be clear on this. I believe this in my heart of hearts, it is not merely an intellectual ascent. And not some ambiguous beliefe in "God", please refer to paragraph one above.

Or am I merely deluded by thinking I have a personal relationship with Christ? Am I therefore, based on the above information, going to hell?
Are you asking this question of the poster named "reformationst" or reformed people in general? If the latter, then yes, you can be saved and not adhere to TULIP.

ken

[PatrickM]

Are you asking this question of the poster named "reformationst" or reformed people in general? If the latter, then yes, you can be saved and not adhere to TULIP.

ken
In general. I believe I used the plural. The term is more inclusive than a personal "handle"?

Thank you for your response. Do all feel the same? Have gotten a bit of a run-around from some here.

[tigersnare]

If this helps...


I love Jesus, I think Jesus loves me and I have been redeemed, adopted, and justified. (put that "think" in there as not so sound boastful)


What's TULIP?? ;)

[BBAS 64]

If this helps...


I love Jesus, I think Jesus loves me and I have been redeemed, adopted, and justified. (put that "think" in there as not so sound boastful)


What's TULIP?? ;)
ROTFLOL

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_131.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

BBAS

[BBAS 64]

Are you asking this question of the poster named "reformationst" or reformed people in general? If the latter, then yes, you can be saved and not adhere to TULIP.

ken
I will agree with Ken on this!

BBAS

[James Sez]

As God is my witness, I need to know this. Can I be saved by believing in my heart Christ, as the Eternal Son of God, second Person of the trinity, paid for my sins by dying on the cross, and was resurrected for my justification, and not, in my lifetime adhere to TULIP? I think you might get various answers on this depending on the TULIPer. I have read some answers to this question (on Calvinist forums) that say "No!". Others are undecided. Many say yes. One smart Calvinist pointed out that a negative answer to your question turns Calvinism into a cult.

I have often seen Calvinist argue that folks who don't believe in TULIP are too sinful to know what they are talking about. My favorite comment was from one guy who said "They (free willers) made insane by their own sin"

[A. believer]

My favorite comment was from one guy who said "They (free willers) made insane by their own sin"
You, James, have clearly been exposed to some awfully wacky Calvinists! :D

[PatrickM]

ROTFLOL
BBAS
Your not helping here. Per Dr. Evil, "C'mon, I'm sinking here, throw me a rope!" ^_^

[A. believer]

As God is my witness, I need to know this. Can I be saved by believing in my heart Christ, as the Eternal Son of God, second Person of the trinity, paid for my sins by dying on the cross, and was resurrected for my justification, and not, in my lifetime adhere to TULIP?

Is 1 Cor 15:3,4; Acts 4:12; 16:31; Eph 1:12-14 enough to secure my place in heaven without ever coming to agree with Calvinism's 5 points?

Let's be clear on this. I believe this in my heart of hearts, it is not merely an intellectual ascent. And not some ambiguous beliefe in "God", please refer to paragraph one above.

Or am I merely deluded by thinking I have a personal relationship with Christ? Am I therefore, based on the above information, going to hell?

This is an honest, humble question. Please to not engage in the merits of TULIP, etc. There is plenty elsewhere.

And if the above is not sufficient, what else, “sola scriptura” is necessary to obtain eternal life?
We're not saved by what we know. We're saved by the grace of God. I believe Calvinism is true as a description of the how and the why God saves. I don't believe (and I, personally, know of no Calvinist who believes) that we're saved by understanding and giving our intellectual assent to a Calvinist theological construct.

[Jason1646]

As God is my witness, I need to know this. Can I be saved by believing in my heart Christ, as the Eternal Son of God, second Person of the trinity, paid for my sins by dying on the cross, and was resurrected for my justification, and not, in my lifetime adhere to TULIP?

Is 1 Cor 15:3,4; Acts 4:12; 16:31; Eph 1:12-14 enough to secure my place in heaven without ever coming to agree with Calvinism's 5 points?

Let's be clear on this. I believe this in my heart of hearts, it is not merely an intellectual ascent. And not some ambiguous beliefe in "God", please refer to paragraph one above.

Or am I merely deluded by thinking I have a personal relationship with Christ? Am I therefore, based on the above information, going to hell?

This is an honest, humble question. Please to not engage in the merits of TULIP, etc. There is plenty elsewhere.

And if the above is not sufficient, what else, “sola scriptura” is necessary to obtain eternal life?


Yes, we are not saved by our relationship with a particular theory regarding the mechanics of salvation. Ironically, to assert that the 5 points are required is to add to the Gospel rather than to defend its 'purity'. This coming from a supralapsarian 5 pointer. ;)

~Jason

[Phoebe]

As God is my witness, I need to know this. Can I be saved by believing in my heart Christ, as the Eternal Son of God, second Person of the trinity, paid for my sins by dying on the cross, and was resurrected for my justification, and not, in my lifetime adhere to TULIP?

Is 1 Cor 15:3,4; Acts 4:12; 16:31; Eph 1:12-14 enough to secure my place in heaven without ever coming to agree with Calvinism's 5 points?

Let's be clear on this. I believe this in my heart of hearts, it is not merely an intellectual ascent. And not some ambiguous beliefe in "God", please refer to paragraph one above.

Or am I merely deluded by thinking I have a personal relationship with Christ? Am I therefore, based on the above information, going to hell?

This is an honest, humble question. Please to not engage in the merits of TULIP, etc. There is plenty elsewhere.

And if the above is not sufficient, what else, “sola scriptura” is necessary to obtain eternal life?Yes you can be saved.
Romans 10:9 If you confess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Is this the beginning of a beautiful relationship?:pray:

[theseed]

As God is my witness, I need to know this. Can I be saved by believing in my heart Christ, as the Eternal Son of God, second Person of the trinity, paid for my sins by dying on the cross, and was resurrected for my justification, and not, in my lifetime adhere to TULIP?

Is 1 Cor 15:3,4; Acts 4:12; 16:31; Eph 1:12-14 enough to secure my place in heaven without ever coming to agree with Calvinism's 5 points?

Let's be clear on this. I believe this in my heart of hearts, it is not merely an intellectual ascent. And not some ambiguous beliefe in "God", please refer to paragraph one above.

Or am I merely deluded by thinking I have a personal relationship with Christ? Am I therefore, based on the above information, going to hell?

This is an honest, humble question. Please to not engage in the merits of TULIP, etc. There is plenty elsewhere.

And if the above is not sufficient, what else, “sola scriptura” is necessary to obtain eternal life?
I don't think you have to understand your salvation completely in order to be saved. Otherwise, that would limit certain people like the mentally retarded from believing in Christ. I believe God can meet up with anyone of anykind of intelligence

[theseed]

Jesus once said, "Suffer not the little children to come to me for such is the Kingdom of God."

TULIP theology is really abstract and beyond 99% of children's understanding. But this like my other post, gets into the top of age of accountability. From what Jesus said, we can come with a child-like faith.

[PatrickM]

I don't think you have to understand your salvation completely in order to be saved. Otherwise, that would limit certain people like the mentally retarded from believing in Christ. I believe God can meet up with anyone of anykind of intelligence
Thank you. Some might agree with me when I say "I resemble that remark!" :D

[PatrickM]

Yes you can be saved.
Romans 10:9 If you confess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Is this the beginning of a beautiful relationship?:pray:
Well, hopefully, it's a reaffirmation of an old flame ;)

[PatrickM]

Yes, we are not saved by our relationship with a particular theory regarding the mechanics of salvation. Ironically, to assert that the 5 points are required is to add to the Gospel rather than to defend its 'purity'. This coming from a supralapsarian 5 pointer. ;)

~Jason
Thanks, supra.

Signed, modified sublapsarian. :D

[theseed]

Thank you. Some might agree with me when I say "I resemble that remark!" :D
LOL :)

[Covenant Heart]

When I first read your post, I was deeply distressed for fear of what I might read in reply. It tore at my heart. I am so thankful that my fears proved unfounded and that people have been gracious to you. Here is my take (wordy, as usual).

First–know that the 5 points of Calvinism were not written until 1619-20. As God is my witness–no one in the history of the world had ever heard of them before that. Obviously, this includes all the OT saints, the prophets, martyrs, the apostles of Christ–and John Calvin whose body at that point was in the grave 50 years! I can’t speak for you, Pat, but if some reformed half-wit with more zeal than knowledge told me that–I don’t know what I'd do. I think it's a 50/50 that I'd tell HIM to go to hell–or have a hernia from laughing so hard. Likely, I’d do both.

Second, of all who claim to be "Calvinists," only 1 in a thousand (if even that) have actually read the Canons of Dort–more popularly called the "five points of Calvinism." Those who do know that the five points "Canons" are headings that sum many more points (articles) and paragraphs. Math was never my strong point. (I was still counting fingers in the 8th grade). But on a quick tally, I got 93 "points" in all. If you have read this far, Pat–you already know things about the "five points" that the thousand Calvinists nearest you don't know.

Third, in these "93 points" (if by some miracle I counted correctly) are many things that every Christian confesses. Please bear with my brief quotes from Articles 1-4 of the first Head 1:

Article 1: "As all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and are deserving of eternal death..."

Who could disagree?

Article 2: "But in this the love of God was manifested, that He sent his only begotten Son into the world, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life (I John 4:9; John 3:16)."

Who could disagree?

Article 3: "That men may be brought to believe, God mercifully sends the messengers of these most joyful tidings..."

And all God’s people said–"Amen!" But the best is yet to come!

Article 4: "The wrath of God abides upon those who believe not this gospel. But such as receive it and embrace Jesus the Savior by a true and living faith are by Him delivered from the wrath of God and from destruction, and have the gift of eternal life conferred upon them."

Need we say more? Pat–you have confessed a "true and living faith" in Jesus the Savior, and that by faith, you have embraced him. You ask if this is "enough to secure my place." The Canons (5 points) say "yes." You are by Jesus "delivered from the wrath of God and from destruction." That is God’s solemn oath. And for any who may not know it, it is the reformed faith.

Pat, if someone is troubling you with this, do feel free to point out the clear verdict of the "Canons" (five points) as original stated. If that doesn’t slow them down, print out this whole post and rub their nose(s) in it. If that still doesn’t work, I suggest that you get him/her/them on this forum.

As God is my witness–there are people here who can and will teach your tormentors not only some theology but also how and why we are to respect, love and to care for our fathers in the Lord.

Now may the Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious unto you. The Lord turn his face toward you and grant you his peace. Blessings!
Covenant Heart

[Bulldog]

PatrickM, did you think that Reformationists/Calvinists believed you needed faith + works to have salvation? Quite Untrue if you look at TULIP. The T in TULIP stands for total deprevity. This means that there is absoulutly nothing we can do to save ourselves. Got it? ;) :)

[good4u]

Yes you can be saved.
Romans 10:9 If you confess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Is this the beginning of a beautiful relationship?:pray:
^^^CO-SIGNS WITH Phoebe this is what it means to have faith and part of how one is saved. But the transformation is found in Ephesians 2:8: "For it is by GRACE (Ken's post) you have been saved through FAITH (Phoebe's post) IN Christ. So putting Ken's and Phebe's post with mine you have the understanding of salvation by God: GRACE thru FAITH in Christ.

So no, you do not have to be a TULIP to have salvation. I am sure there will be a lot of surprises in heaven when non-TULIPers are seen as heavenly citizens....LOL

[A. believer]

This preface to a famous letter from George Whitefield to John Wesley offers what I believe is a good and balanced perspective on such issues.

A Letter
from
George Whitefield
to the
Rev. Mr. John Wesley

IN ANSWER TO MR. WESLEY'S SERMON ENTITLED
"Free Grace" (http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-128.stm)

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed" (Gal. 2:11).

(Iain Murray has written an excellent article (http://www.gty.org/~phil/wesley/murray.htm) explaining the historical background of this exchange between Whitefield and Wesley.)

PREFACE


I am very well aware what different effects publishing this letter against the dear Mr. Wesley's Sermon (http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-128.stm) will produce. Many of my friends who are strenuous advocates for universal redemption will immediately be offended. Many who are zealous on the other side will be much rejoiced. They who are lukewarm on both sides and are carried away with carnal reasoning will wish this matter had never been brought under debate.
The reasons I have given at the beginning of the letter, I think are sufficient to satisfy all of my conduct herein. I desire therefore that they who hold election would not triumph, or make a party on one hand (for I detest any such thing)—and that they who are prejudiced against that doctrine be not too much concerned or offended on the other.
Known unto God are all his ways from the beginning of the world. The great day will discover why the Lord permits dear Mr. Wesley and me to be of a different way of thinking. At present, I shall make no enquiry into that matter, beyond the account which he has given of it himself in the following letter, which I lately received from his own dear hands:

London, August 9, 1740

My dear Brother,
I thank you for yours, May the 24th. The case is quite plain. There are bigots both for predestination and against it. God is sending a message to those on either side. But neither will receive it, unless from one who is of their own opinion. Therefore, for a time you are suffered to be of one opinion, and I of another. But when his time is come, God will do what man cannot, namely, make us both of one mind. Then persecution will flame out, and it will be seen whether we count our lives dear unto ourselves, so that we may finish our course with joy. I am, my dearest brother,
Ever yours,

J. WESLEY

Thus my honoured friend, I heartily pray God to hasten the time, for his being clearly enlightened into all the doctrines of divine revelation, that we may thus be closely united in principle and judgment as well as heart and affection. And then if the Lord should call us to it, I care not if I go with him to prison, or to death. For like Paul and Silas, I hope we shall sing praises to God, and count it our highest honour to suffer for Christ's sake, and to lay down our lives for the brethren.


Here's a link (http://www.gty.org/~phil/wesley.htm) to the whole letter.

[PatrickM]

This preface to a famous letter from George Whitefield to John Wesley offers what I believe is a good and balanced perspective on such issues.

A Letter
from
George Whitefield
to the
Rev. Mr. John Wesley

IN ANSWER TO MR. WESLEY'S SERMON ENTITLED
"Free Grace" (http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-128.stm)

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed" (Gal. 2:11).

(Iain Murray has written an excellent article (http://www.gty.org/~phil/wesley/murray.htm) explaining the historical background of this exchange between Whitefield and Wesley.)

PREFACE


I am very well aware what different effects publishing this letter against the dear Mr. Wesley's Sermon (http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-128.stm) will produce. Many of my friends who are strenuous advocates for universal redemption will immediately be offended. Many who are zealous on the other side will be much rejoiced. They who are lukewarm on both sides and are carried away with carnal reasoning will wish this matter had never been brought under debate.
The reasons I have given at the beginning of the letter, I think are sufficient to satisfy all of my conduct herein. I desire therefore that they who hold election would not triumph, or make a party on one hand (for I detest any such thing)—and that they who are prejudiced against that doctrine be not too much concerned or offended on the other.
Known unto God are all his ways from the beginning of the world. The great day will discover why the Lord permits dear Mr. Wesley and me to be of a different way of thinking. At present, I shall make no enquiry into that matter, beyond the account which he has given of it himself in the following letter, which I lately received from his own dear hands:

London, August 9, 1740

My dear Brother,
I thank you for yours, May the 24th. The case is quite plain. There are bigots both for predestination and against it. God is sending a message to those on either side. But neither will receive it, unless from one who is of their own opinion. Therefore, for a time you are suffered to be of one opinion, and I of another. But when his time is come, God will do what man cannot, namely, make us both of one mind. Then persecution will flame out, and it will be seen whether we count our lives dear unto ourselves, so that we may finish our course with joy. I am, my dearest brother,
Ever yours,

J. WESLEY

Thus my honoured friend, I heartily pray God to hasten the time, for his being clearly enlightened into all the doctrines of divine revelation, that we may thus be closely united in principle and judgment as well as heart and affection. And then if the Lord should call us to it, I care not if I go with him to prison, or to death. For like Paul and Silas, I hope we shall sing praises to God, and count it our highest honour to suffer for Christ's sake, and to lay down our lives for the brethren.


Here's a link (http://www.gty.org/~phil/wesley.htm) to the whole letter.
Awsome! I especially like Wesley's phrase "But when his time is come, God will do what man cannot, namely, make us both of one mind."

I pray that more of us Christians can be as they were!

[PatrickM]

^^^CO-SIGNS WITH Phoebe this is what it means to have faith and part of how one is saved. But the transformation is found in Ephesians 2:8: "For it is by GRACE (Ken's post) you have been saved through FAITH (Phoebe's post) IN Christ. So putting Ken's and Phebe's post with mine you have the understanding of salvation by God: GRACE thru FAITH in Christ.

So no, you do not have to be a TULIP to have salvation. I am sure there will be a lot of surprises in heaven when non-TULIPers are seen as heavenly citizens....LOL
Amen. I heard it said that when we get to heaven we'll all have little red spots on our foreheads, from slapping ourselves there. We'll all be saying, "I can't believe you're here!" ^_^

[PatrickM]

PatrickM, did you think that Reformationists/Calvinists believed you needed faith + works to have salvation? Quite Untrue if you look at TULIP. The T in TULIP stands for total deprevity. This means that there is absoulutly nothing we can do to save ourselves. Got it? ;) :)
Thanks, daaawg! I have rather been of the impression, not of works, but of adherence to a specific beliefe in the Salvation process as spelled out by the Canons of Dort. Specifically, Limited Atonement, and Irresistable grace.:D

[good4u]

Amen. I heard it said that when we get to heaven we'll all have little red spots on our foreheads, from slapping ourselves there. We'll all be saying, "I can't believe you're here!" ^_^
:D ;) :wave: