Messiah and Torah - Where's the Balance?

[iitb]

Some of the discussions today have motivated me to ask some of the biggest questions in the MJ movement at the moment: Why do I need both Torah and Messiah? Is one more important than the other?

I do realize that there are varying views on this topic, so I'm going to ask that everyone play nice. I'm not looking to start a heated debate, I just want to see what your views are. :)

[Henaynei]

Some of the discussions today have motivated me to ask some of the biggest questions in the MJ movement at the moment: Why do I need both Torah and Messiah? Is one more important than the other?

I do realize that there are varying views on this topic, so I'm going to ask that everyone play nice. I'm not looking to start a heated debate, I just want to see what your views are. :)
I'll take a stab at this:

Torah, G-d's instructions given to us to make us holy and show us how our own "righteousness" falls far short of G-d's reality, could not atone for us. G-d loves us, that is why He gave us Torah, the written expression of who He truly is. For it is very difficult for flesh to understand Spirit without help from outside ourselves.

He also knew that having given us these instructions, and picture of Him, He would also need to make a way to redeem us - as even the most righteous of us will never be able to keep His instructions without failure, aka sin. So, He came and made atonement for us. He came, donned human flesh and soul and lived Torah perfectly so when He died He was not paying for his sins but ours.

We need G-d as Torah to teach us who He is and what He wants of us, we G-d as Messiah to pay our debt to death which we could never pay.

I know this leaves a lot of holes, but worthy theologians have been trying for millenia to answer this question, so I don't feel as if I have blundered :)

Shalom,
Henaynei

[The Thadman]

Some of the discussions today have motivated me to ask some of the biggest questions in the MJ movement at the moment: Why do I need both Torah and Messiah? Is one more important than the other?

I do realize that there are varying views on this topic, so I'm going to ask that everyone play nice. I'm not looking to start a heated debate, I just want to see what your views are. :)

Torah and Messiah? The Messiah taught the Full Torah. He's the one who, among other things, restored its proper meaning, and told us to keep it.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[Linda8]

Torah and Messiah? The Messiah taught the Full Torah. He's the one who, among other things, restored its proper meaning, and told us to keep it.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

It is not regarded as being that simple. This is because the teachers of Torah
over centuries have steered clear of any analysis of His contributions in that regard. Hence we have a Messiah who is somehow separated from Torah by the very upholders and leaders of Torah dissemination.

Therein lies the complexity of Yeshua's harmony with the Mishna.

[Charlesinflorida]

Ro 2:[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,

Faith in Messiah Yeshua, results in the Holy Spirit bringing new life to our comatose spirits, giving new life to us, life that is centered in Messiah. And in the process the Torah is written on our hearts, Just as the promise of Jer 31 had stated. Yeshua is the Living Torah. When you have Messiah you have Torah in you. When you really understand Torah, you discover Messiah Yeshua. Can't separate them. So the balance is our obedience to the working of the Ruach HaKodesh in our hearts as he brings each item before us to deal with. And this happens in different orders and at different rates for each man. This is why Paul cautioned us to be careful not to cause another brother to stumble, through our liberty. Because we are not all on the same page at the same time.

Where we must be careful is in not confusing the Spirits work with social or religious pressure that would have us bogged down in some religious practice or church doctrine that is not Gods commandment, but some hedge that was added to it.

Charles in Florida

[yod]

Did Abraham need the Torah?

The Torah teaches us something so much deeper than the words it contains. I want the substance...not the pages.

I count ALL things as dung for the higher calling in Messiah Yeshua.

Don't confuse that with a disregard for the Torah...but I am not bound to "it", I am bound to "Him"

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

Surprise! I agree with you. Any serious student of the scriptures will find a wealth of knowledge pertinent to today in the Torah and even the whole Tenakh. But to even begin to really understand its relevance, one must FIRST know Jesus Christ because He is the one to whom the OC speaks of and points to.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[yod]

hey DE,

Why would it surprise me? You and I see things closer than you realize. I've always considered you a friend and brother.

But what are you doing here? Did you run out of people to argue with at Worthy??? ^_^

[Linda8]

Ro 2:[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,

Faith in Messiah Yeshua, results in the Holy Spirit bringing new life to our comatose spirits, giving new life to us, life that is centered in Messiah. And in the process the Torah is written on our hearts, Just as the promise of Jer 31 had stated. Yeshua is the Living Torah. When you have Messiah you have Torah in you. When you really understand Torah, you discover Messiah Yeshua. Can't separate them. So the balance is our obedience to the working of the Ruach HaKodesh in our hearts as he brings each item before us to deal with. And this happens in different orders and at different rates for each man. This is why Paul cautioned us to be careful not to cause another brother to stumble, through our liberty. Because we are not all on the same page at the same time.



Charles in Florida
There is still a dilemma for many.

It is actually a serious issue that needs very careful attention for it has been

avoided for years.

How could a believer who seeks help about obeying the Mishna thus obeying the Torah , obtain understanding about whether it is a violation of Torah
or not, to affirm complete faith in who Yeshua is.

Such a believer would immediately face a huge difficulty.
It is easy to say Yeshua is the living Torah.
It is however more convoluted because affirming faith in who Yeshua was
could immediately land you in VIOLATION of the same Torah because of how
certain mitzvot are understood by the leading teachers and halakhic authority holders over the centuries.

Again, this is not easy to handle.

[JewishHeart]

Some people just don't understand what Torah is... the priestly functions are an earthly calling to the Jewish people ( its a calling and not a requirement and there is liberty for the Jewish people as well in Messiah). Torah points the Gentiles and Jews to the Messiah like Moshe. If He is like Moshe He will bring a different Torah like Moshe (" I give you a NEW commandment that you love one another as I have loved you..."). The Torah of Messiah reigns over the Torah of Moses. Why? The Torah of Moses deals with an eternal earthly calling to the Jewish people as priests. The Torah of Messiah deals with a heavenly calling to both Jew and Gentile alike. Both the center of the Torah of Moshe and the Torah of Yeshua is the Messiah ! Let's keep our beautiful Savior in sight and the Ruach HaKodesh will sweetly reveal His truth to us all in time. By the way, those who have knowledge of the heart of Yeshua are greater than those who have knowledge of the plan of Yeshua (Moses' Torah).

[BenTsion]

JewishHeart,
With all due respect, I fail to see any scriptural support for a distinction between the 'Torah of Moshe' and the 'Torah of Messiah'. Just like there is ONE HaShem, there is ONE Torah, written by the finger of G-d, which is BOTH the Torah of Moshe and the of Messiah. Torah means instruction and its purpose is to instruct us in a relationship with G-d and, as such, it points to Yeshua. The error lies in believing that because we have already obtained a relationship with Yeshua, then we no longer need instructions for such relationship.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[mylene]

JewishHeart,
Torah means instruction and its purpose is to instruct us in a relationship with G-d and, as such, it points to Yeshua. The error lies in believing that because we have already obtained a relationship with Yeshua, then we no longer need instructions for such relationship.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

The other side of the coin would also say that the Torah of Moses does not
provide or accomodate Yeshua's word hence we have two sides pushing each other away. That is, the eternal covenant with Moshe is seen as totally eclipsing any later teachings and that view is from Torah itself.

Is it a widely held view that the Torah points to Yeshua? Is that how Torah
is taught in real life by the Teachers, since we need to look at the real life scenario.

[JewishHeart]

Yeshua is the prophet " like Moshe" according to Deuteronomy. Moshe brought a Torah, so that means that Yeshua needs to bring a Torah if He is "like Moshe." Both Torah's are "eternal and everlasting" , one is the physical, earthly priestly functions for the Jewish people in order to be a light to the nations( Moshe's Torah) and one is spiritual with spiritual laws of the heart for salvation under Messiah Yeshua ( Yeshua's Torah). Both are still applicant to us today, one is physical and one is spiritual.

[simchat_torah]

The other side of the coin would also say that the Torah of Moses does not provide or accomodate Yeshua's word hence we have two sides pushing each other away.
If the two are in conflict, then we have a false messiah.

However, Y'shua and the Torah are in union. Y'shua perfectly taught Torah, how it should be applied to our lives, etc. He also taught how the Torah pointed to himself.

There is no dychotomy between the two.

[simchat_torah]

Yeshua is the prophet " like Moshe" according to Deuteronomy. Moshe brought a Torah, so that means that Yeshua needs to bring a Torah if He is "like Moshe."
I think this is in a firm misunderstanding.

Y'shua would come in the likeness of Moshe in that he would bring HaShem to the people. In fact, he was to be greater than Moshe. But he did not replace Moshe. It was not a new covenant, but rather a renewed covenant.

Y'shua taught Moshe. Y'shua taught the Torah.

He did not teach a different torah. This is flagrantly heretical.

[JewishHeart]

The Torah itself is Yeshua, it is the letter of the Torah that leaders to death, but the Spirit of God gives life.

[BenTsion]

JewishHeart,
The problem is that there is no scriptural evidence for the existence of two Torah's.
Yeshua is a prophet like Moshe because He delivered his people from bondage and made them turn back to a relationship with G-d. Yeshua taught the true focus of the Torah. He corrected many distorted interpretations. Besides, He didn't need to bring
forth another Torah, because He Himself is the D'var HaShem, hence the living Torah.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[JewishHeart]

"It was not a new covenant, but rather a renewed covenant" - Simchat Torah

Jeremiah would not agree with this statement !

Brit HaChadashah not Brit Tikkun

[simchat_torah]

Jeremiah would not agree with this statement !
Jeremiah in a christian English translation would not, you are correct.

However, in Hebrew, it is Brit Chadasha. RENewed Covenant. Not new.

[JewishHeart]

I am not saying that the Torah of Moshe is not useful or benefecial for today. I love the Torah of Moshe. Now there are two Torah's to follow. One for the priestly Jewish nation and one for the Gentile and Jewish community in Messiah.

[JewishHeart]

I speak Hebrew fluently and last time I checked Chadash means new and Tikkun means restored or renewed. WHen I say I bought a brand new car I say , " anee kaniti mechonit chadash." Or if I got a new house I say , " anee kibalti beit chadash." You look up all your mystery dictionaries all you want, but it makes no sense in spoken Hebrew.

[Hix]

When Jeremiah speaks of this new covenant you claim it is only a renewing the Torah as it actually states: "I will put My law within them, and on their hearts I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” says the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” "

Only those who read this verse out of context would think that there is a new covenant but as it turns out it is a renewal of the old one within our hearts. One Torah, One chosen people, One Messiah, One HaShem.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Pray4Isrel]

Where's the balance?
For me it is somewhere between Law and Grace.

I am an ever-growing ever-changing person. Yet I don't know as I'll ever fully understand how to find this balance.
So I do the best with what I've got.
I follow the Law to the best of my ability, but I don't forget the Grace He has shown me.

I know I have a looooooooong way to go, but I enjoy every moment of my life. I try not to beat myself up over it, I have to find joy and freedom. But at the same time, I find my joy and freedom in Yeshua and His sacrifice.

I believe the answer to this question differs from person to person. As long as we don't take it upon ourselves to decide another's level of devotion and observance, we can grow as we need to.

[ubermandy]

In your opinions, do the following verses speak to a balance between the Old and New Covenants:

Romans 7:4-6 (NIV)
4. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to G-d.
5. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
6. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not the old way of the written code.

Of course, these verses must also be taken in account with the first chapters which deal a lot with the law.
Mandy

[ShirChadash]

:scratch: Ever since I saw the title of this thread, I have been asking myself...


Did the Apostles ask themselves how to balance Messiah and Torah? Did they see the two as at odds somehow or worry they might focus too much on the One and too little on the Other, or that following the One meant they were somehow not following the Other enough/as much/well enough?

[mylene]

[/font]
If the two are in conflict, then we have a false messiah.

However, Y'shua and the Torah are in union. Y'shua perfectly taught Torah, how it should be applied to our lives, etc. He also taught how the Torah pointed to himself.

There is no dychotomy between the two.

Not neccessarily. It depends on who sees the conflict.

If a conflict is seen by a religious teacher, then that religious one would

conclude that we have a false Messiah.

However, that religious teacher may not necessarily be seeing the true

picture. So it depends on the process by which we determine whether

a conflict exists or not.

[ShirChadash]

In your opinions, do the following verses speak to a balance between the Old and New Covenants:

Romans 7:4-6 (NIV)
4. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to G-d.
5. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
6. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not the old way of the written code.

Of course, these verses must also be taken in account with the first chapters which deal a lot with the law.
MandyYes, they do.

The law referred to in these verses is the LAW of SIN and DEATH. It says very clearly in vs 5 what law is being discussed here -- the law of sin and death which is manifest by our sinful nature, sinful passions, and we are NOW DEAD to the law of sin and death which once bound us because you can only serve one master and you can only be subject to one law -- G-d's LAW of LIFE (Torah, His teaching and instruction) or the law of sin and death to which we are all slaves before Yeshua's salvation which sets us free to embrace G-d's Laws. Without Yeshua, and the Spirit of Elohim which He gave, it is impossible to follow the Law of G-d by the Spirit of G-d. But when Yeshua said, "obey my commands", He followed that up by saying AND I will give you a HELPER (the Spirit of G-d). The Spirit is given to us that we may know and abide by G-d's teachings -- G-d's Law of Life rather than the law of sin and death.

[ubermandy]

6. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not the old way of the written code.

So, the Messiah fulfilled the law by showing us the perfect balance of law and grace. Without grace the law is dead. But grace without law is dead.
Does this ring true with anyone else?
Mandy

[simchat_torah]

Ubermandy, I will remind you that you are not allowed to debate here. You may have a debate in the IDD forums, but not here since you are not a Messianic.

Thank you.
-Yafet.

[ubermandy]

Forgive me. It is my intent to ask questions.
Mandy

[iitb]

Forgive me. It is my intent to ask questions.
Mandyand you are perfectly welcome to do so. :)

[simchat_torah]

One who is not messianic, or is seeking to understand Messianic Judaism is more than welcome to ask questions. forgive me if I misread your intent. :)

However, to discuss and/or debate theology is reserved for the IDD forums.

Please do not let my bonehead quickness deter you from asking questions here in the MJ section.

shalom,
yafet.

[ubermandy]

I would like to tell you all that I have learned so much from you. I have great respect for people who are not only passionate about what they believe, but also very knowledgable.

I believe in Yeshua as Messiah. I believe HaShem is the one true G-d. (Forgive me if it is too early to use this terminology) My spirit has been stirred to know and understand whether Torah observance is the missing piece my husband and I have been looking for.

I covet your prayers as I am earnestly seeking. Thank you,
Mandy

[ShirChadash]

Without grace the law is dead. But grace without law is dead.
Does this ring true with anyone else?
Mandy
:)

I think I personally would say that Torah-observance without grace is at least incomplete, and vice versa. I believe that Torah-observance without Yeshua and His saving work... is anemic, lacking, not experienced or embraced in it's true fullness. But I believe the very same about faith in Yeshua in the absence of G-d's teaching/Torah. They cannot cannot cannot be separated... Yeshua is Torah, it's true... but then again I see clearly that the worship of Elohim (the plural One) and the salvation He gives has always been a complete package, and that we cannot separate the Faith He gives from the salvation He gives from the standards He holds from the lifestyle He instructs His children to abide by, in order for us to have life. :cool:

[ShirChadash]

:hug: Bless you Mandy. My DH and I have been on a similar journey and finally come to a place of peace ourselves. I'll hold you in my prayers, Sister. :prayer:


I believe in Yeshua as Messiah. I believe HaShem is the one true G-d. (Forgive me if it is too early to use this terminology) My spirit has been stirred to know and understand whether Torah observance is the missing piece my husband and I have been looking for.

I covet your prayers as I am earnestly seeking. Thank you,
Mandy
Shalom!

[ubermandy]

I think I personally would say that Torah-observance without grace is at least incomplete, and vice versa. I believe that Torah-observance without Yeshua and His saving work... is anemic, lacking, not experienced or embraced in it's true fullness. But I believe the very same about faith in Yeshua in the absence of G-d's teaching/Torah. They cannot cannot cannot be separated... Yeshua is Torah, it's true... but then again I see clearly that the worship of Elohim (the plural One) and the salvation He gives has always been a complete package, and that we cannot separate the Faith He gives from the salvation He gives from the standards He holds from the lifestyle He instructs His children to abide by, in order for us to have life.

Good point. I think lacking is a better word than dead.

Bless you Mandy. My DH and I have been on a similar journey and finally come to a place of peace ourselves. I'll hold you in my prayers, Sister.
Thanks! It is much appreciated.
Mandy