Are Lutherans Protestants?

[Bulldog]

Do you think that Lutherans are protestants? They hold many different views from most other protestant denomonations, like the role of the sacrements and the infant baptism.

[ByzantineDixie]

LCMS Lutherans do not consider themselves "protestants" as is generally understood by many. As you have correctly identified, we do not hold to generally recognized reformed theology nor do we hold to (big C) Catholic theology.

I am unfamiliar with all the nuances of the ELCA Lutherans...they are in pulpit fellowship with other church denominations. LCMS and ELCA are not in pulpit fellowship. Probably would be best to get their take on the question directly from them.

I have some information at home regarding how LCMS Lutherans look at the breakdown of the other denominations and where we fit it (or actually do not fit in)...I can post that this evening when I get home if there is interest.

Rose

[JVAC]

Lutherans are Protestants, Anglicans are Protestants, Moravians, Methodists are protestants, Presbyterians are Protestants.

Most other denominations should be considered Anabaptists Tradition, for they believe in rebaptism, (that is to say, that infant baptism doesn't count.) Therefore, traditional views of the Sacraments would tend to make one Protestant, whereas 'new' views of the Sacraments make you an Anabaptist, if not by descent by theology.

We aren't Roman Catholic, we are protestants, for we protested against the Church of Rome, the Anabaptists wanted further reform, so if you don't hold to many of the traditional Church views, you probably aren't protestant.

[WesleyJohn]

.

[ByzantineDixie]

But the OP questioned how Lutherans can be considered protestant when they do not subscribe to the views of other denominations generally considered to be protestant and there are some key distinctions between Lutherans and other denominations termed protestant.

No one can argue that Luther was not a key player in the Protestant Reformation and as such Lutherans could be considered protestant but today the term is generally used to describe other denominations with which Lutherans hold distinct theological differences. As such...Lutherans have taken some distance.

To illustrate my point.... Years ago (don't know if this is still true) there used to be three different Boy Scout manuals...one for Catholics, one for Protestants and one especially for Lutherans.

I guess it goes ones understanding of the term "protestant"....if the understanding is those who participate in the protestant reformation and any off shoots thereof...then yes, you could call Lutherans protestants. But if the term is used to describe basic theological agreement...some Lutherans would object.

Rose

[seebs]

I was raised Lutheran, and we were certainly taught that "we" were Protestants; after all, "we" were founded by the guy who protested. (The word "we" is in scare quotes because I'm no longer Lutheran.)

[Lotar]

Since when did Protestant become synonymous with anabaptist?

It seems that there are a few definitions of Protestant floating around.
1.) All non-Catholic/Orthodox trinitarian Christians
2.) All Evangelical/Reformed Christians
3.) All anabaptist Christians

[JVAC]

I just think from now one we should refer to the more orthodox Protestants as Protestants, and the less as Anabaptists. These terms work pretty well as descripters.

[seebs]

Those terms might work well, but then we need an "anabaptist" forum in which maybe half of the Baptists would go, but not all of them... It'd get confusing.

[Phoebe]

Actually, Lutherans are protestant. Many other mainstream denominations are not.
Some don't even refer to themselves as protestant.

(It's mostly a technicality.) I think we are either Catholic, Protestant, or cults/ not mainstream. I try to keep it simple.

[theologia crucis]

To the original post: Yes, Lutherans are protestants (a term I personally hate, it's badly misunderstood or misused). More importantly, we are evangelical (above all else!!!), orthodox, and catholic and Christian!!!

For historical perspective, do any of y'all know what exactly was being protested, and where and when it took place? (I know the answer, and will give it later)

Also, as was stated on another thread, historically, Lutherans were the first group of Christians to call themselves Evangelical. That's what Luther wanted his fellow believers to be called (actually, he preferred Christian above all). If you go to an evangelischekirche [sic?] in Germany, you'll get liturgy, sacraments, and most importantly, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Lutherans also may have been the first group of Christians to call themselves Reformed (they did called themselves this by at least 1577; I'm not sure historically when others [Calvinists?] started calling themselves that).

[Phoebe]

The selling of indulgences, and the 95 thesis on the Castle Door at Wittenberg?

On posting the Theses, Luther was asking for a public discussion of them.

[theologia crucis]

Nope!

[Lotar]

Sola gratia, sola fide, and sola scriptura. At Augsburg, 1530.

[theologia crucis]

Phoebe, you're too early. Lotar, you're just late.

[Lotar]

:P

Then are you talking about the Diet of Worms, or is it earlier?

[theologia crucis]

After Worms.

[JVAC]

LOL, post a thread like this and all the Lutherans come out of the woodwork, I look on "who is online" and I notice, they're all Lutherans. Run for the hills!!!

[Phoebe]

LOL, post a thread like this and all the Lutherans come out of the woodwork, I look on "who is online" and I notice, they're all Lutherans. Run for the hills!!!
LOL

Heidelberg Disputation?

[theologia crucis]

JVAC,

This is the first time I've ever seen it!

[Phoebe]

Tell me the answer! Tell me the answer!! Aaaaaaagh! I'm going nuts here!

[theologia crucis]

Nope, the Hiedelberg Disputation was in 1518.

It was at a diet, and it was between Worms (1521) and Augsburg (1530).

[JVAC]

It's almost like we need to all hold hands and sing, "A mighty fortress is our God".!

[Lotar]

Was it when he published his bible in 1522?

[JVAC]

I tried cheating, but I failed misserably, I know nothing!!!

[Phoebe]

Don't tell me the protest was over Luther being excommunicated.

[Lotar]

Luther was excommunicated in 1520

[theologia crucis]

...But now a champion comes to fight, Whom God Himself elected. You ask who this may be? The Lord of hosts is he! Christ Jesus, mighty Lord, God's only son adored...

Nope, it was at a diet. Think just before Augsburg...

[Lotar]

The Diet of Speyer?

[theologia crucis]

Give me a second to type it up...

[Bohemian]

Was it the disagreement about the fallibility of the pope and/or salvation by grace through faith, not by works?

[JVAC]

....he holds the field victorious

[theologia crucis]

Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner (if you mean the Second Diet of Speyer in 1529)!!!

Now, I'll go type it up...

[Phoebe]

It's almost like we need to all hold hands and sing, "A mighty fortress is our God".!God's Word forever shall abide, No thanks to foes who fear it; For God himself fights by our side With weapons of the Spirit. Were they to take our house, Goods, honor, child, or spouse, Though life be wrenched away again.They caanot win the day. The Kingdom's ours forever.

[JVAC]

They cannot win the day, The kingdom's ours forever!!!

[Phoebe]

Aaargh! It was on the tip of my tongue!!

(not really. I'm lying)

[JVAC]

We should have sing-a-longs here in PRE, I think I am gonna do that!! Tomorrow, brace yourself PRE

THE SINGING CHURCH HAS COME!!!

[Lotar]

I win! :clap:

Ofcourse, I used the Luther movie website's timeline :D :P

[Phoebe]

We hijacked a thread. Tee- hee.

[Bohemian]

Speaking of diets, I shouldn't of had so much for dinner.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_112.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[JVAC]

:bow: :bow: :bow: Lotar

All hail he knows how to use the internet!!!:clap: :clap:

[JVAC]

We hijacked a thread. Tee- hee.
LOL, sorta like the peasant revolt, only less bloody, and cooler!

[ByzantineDixie]

I win! :clap:

Ofcourse, I used the Luther movie website's timeline :D :P

Speaking of the Luther movie...I never have been a real hearty Marty fan until I saw that movie. ...never realized what a hottie Luther was! ;)

Rose

[Phoebe]

Speaking of the Luther movie...I never have been a real hearty Marty fan until I saw that movie. ...never realized what a hottie Luther was! ;)

Rose

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!! He was a chubby imbiber. ;)

[JVAC]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is the funniest thing I have ever heard, Rose that is classic!!

Wittenburg's most elligable protestor!

[theologia crucis]

I'm skipping over some of the details, but, in 1529, at the Second Diet of Speyer, the Edict of Worms (from 1521, where Luther was "convicted" as a heretic, he was to be placed under the ban, his followers were to be condemned, and his books were to be eradicated from the memory of man) was reaffirmed for Catholic territories (i.e., Lutherans and other non-Roman Catholics were to be kicked out principalities ruled by Catholic princes).

However, in territories ruled by Evangelical (Lutheran) princes, existing Catholic churches were to be allowed religious freedom to go on as before the start of Reformation.

It was against THIS arrangement that the non-Roman Catholics PROTESTED.

From "Here I Stand" by Roland Bainton: "They [the Evangelicals] affirmed that they could not have to religions side by side in their territories without menace to the public peace, and if their plea was not heard, then 'they must protest and testify publicly before God that they could consent to nothing contrary to his Word.

"Their stand has been variously misrepresented. In the Protestant camp the emphasis has been all too much on the first word, 'protest,' rather than on the second, 'testify.' Above all else they were confessing their faith. On the Catholic side the misrepresentation has been flagrant. The historian Janssen said that they were protesting against religious liberty. In a sense they were. Neither side was tolerant, but the objection was to the inequality of the arrangement which demanded liberty for Catholics and denied it to Protestants. In this protest the Zwinglians and Lutehrans were joined."

So, historically speaking, Lutherans and Zwinglians have the historical claim to the title "Protestant".

Thanks for your patience, and I'm sorry I'm such a slow typer!!!

[theologia crucis]

Dear Christians, one and all rejoice, with exultation springing...

[Lotar]

Cool. Thanks for the info.

[Lotar]

Has anyone else bought the soundtrack to Luther? It's pretty awesome.

[theologia crucis]

I don't have the soundtrack, but I do have the Luther movie calendar.

And I did get the "Reformation Symphony" by Mendelssohn-Bartholdy for Christmas...

[Phoebe]

I still want to see the movie.

[ByzantineDixie]

However, in territories ruled by Evangelical (Lutheran) princes, existing Catholic churches were to be allowed religious freedom to go on as before the start of Reformation.

It was against THIS arrangement that the non-Roman Catholics PROTESTED.



Sometimes I think my brain has mad cow disease...things I learn get lost in the "holes". I studied this in my doctrine class just last fall. You'd think I might have a little retention. Thanks for the refresher!

Rose

[Phoebe]

Sometimes I think my brain has mad cow disease...things I learn get lost in the "holes". I studied this in my doctrine class just last fall. You'd think I might have a little retention. Thanks for the refresher!

Rose
Where do/ did you go to school?

[JVAC]

Since we took over this thread, can we change its name? I want the Leauge of Liberated Lutherans!!!

[Phoebe]

We could just start our own. ;)

[ByzantineDixie]

I am enrolled in the new distance learning program offered by Concordia House of Studies in the FL-GA district. I take classes with DELTO sem students. Its been interesting for an old gal to go back to school after 20 years--and theology is a far cry from Chemistry, a whole different way of thinking.

Right now I am to pursuing a Lay Ministry certification. I have no idea what God's plans are for me but I am pretty excited to see what He has in mind!

Rose

[Lotar]

How about Lotar's League of Liberated Lutherans

[JVAC]

That is a good Idea! Phoebe, and i like Lotar's suggestion, anymore L adjectives??

[Phoebe]

Okay. I'll do the edit.



Yeah, I've been out for about 19 years.

[Lotar]

I am enrolled in the new distance learning program offered by Concordia House of Studies in the FL-GA district. I take classes with DELTO sem students. Its been interesting for an old gal to go back to school after 20 years--and theology is a far cry from Chemistry, a whole different way of thinking.

Right now I am to pursuing a Lay Ministry certification. I have no idea what God's plans are for me but I am pretty excited to see what He has in mind!

Rose
Cool. Now I'm wishing I went to Concordia here in Cali, I'd rather have a degree in Theology than in Civil Engineering.

[Flipper]

This is the funniest thread I've seen in a long time!!!

Has anyone ever seen Luther's artwork? I wish I knew where there is an example I can post. It's quite, er, interesting. He was definitely imbibing while doodling.

I'm also a Concordia Alum (CUW)

...now for a song...

I got the joy joy joy joy down in my heart

Where??!!!

[Phoebe]

This is the funniest thread I've seen in a long time!!!

Has anyone ever seen Luther's artwork? I wish I knew where there is an example I can post. It's quite, er, interesting. He was definitely imbibing while doodling.

I'm also a Concordia Alum (CUW)

...now for a song...

I got the joy joy joy joy down in my heart

Where??!!!Down in my heart!

[JVAC]

Down in my heart to stay!

[Lotar]

http://members.lycos.co.uk/oo7nrw/forum/images/avatars/gallery/Avatars/luther.jpg *Luther looks on with approval

[Flipper]

...and if the Devil doesn't like it he can sit on a tack

OUCH!!!!!

[theologia crucis]

That's scary, Lotar. I have a degree in civil engineering (in fact, I'm a licensed PE here in Texas), and now that I have a good understanding of Christian doctrine (after I got my degree), I wish I had a theology degree, too. And I've got a Concordia just a few miles down IH 35. And, my wife works for the Church Extension Fund...

[Phoebe]

http://members.lycos.co.uk/oo7nrw/forum/images/avatars/gallery/Avatars/luther.jpg *Luther looks on with approval
LOL!
I think the next get together may need to be in California.
What do you think Felicia?

[Phoebe]

I'm looking into going to college. Maybe I'll try Concordia.

[Lotar]

That's scary, Lotar. I have a degree in civil engineering (in fact, I'm a licensed PE here in Texas), and now that I have a good understanding of Christian doctrine (after I got my degree), I wish I had a theology degree, too. And I've got a Concordia just a few miles down IH 35. And, my wife works for the Church Extension Fund...
I passed my EIT on the first try :clap: I graduate this quarter.

My cousin goes to Concordia here in California, down by the beach. I wish I did that, I don't know if I want to be an engineer. Oh well, that's life.

[Flipper]

LOL!
I think the next get together may need to be in California.
What do you think Felicia?

Hmmmmm - never been there.

[JVAC]

What about California LUtheran, that is down there too, My pastor graduated from there. I am thinking of Getting my masters there

[theologia crucis]

Congrats on passing the EIT. The PE ain't too bad, but I'm glad I took it before NCEES banned my HP48G! That thing is my brain mathematically! Engineering isn't a bad career so far. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with seismic loading!!! I've just gotta worry about caves and swelling clays!

[ByzantineDixie]

I passed my EIT on the first try :clap: I graduate this quarter.

My cousin goes to Concordia here in California, down by the beach. I wish I did that, I don't know if I want to be an engineer. Oh well, that's life.

Ah Lotar, you are still young enough to study theology. When the time is right perhaps you can find a distance learning or night/weekend study program. During the day you can be a light unto the world and Col. 3:23 it. Whatever you do work at it with all your heart as if working for the Lord not men.

Rose

[theologia crucis]

Yeah, don't forget the Lutheran doctrine of vocation...

[Flipper]

I'll never forget, when my wedding invitations went out, which was when most of my family found out that I was no longer Catholic, how much a heathen I became because *gasp* I became a *gasp* PROTESTANT!!!

The Shame! The Shame!

[Phoebe]

I'll pray for you, Felicia. ;)

[JVAC]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



(Laughing so hard I can't breathe)

[Phoebe]

Breathe, JVAC, breathe.
Did you learn nothing in child birth?

[JVAC]

I have been stuck in the middle of close to 500 anabaptists all day long, and was not ready for such a fellowship that this forum has just provided!!

It is awesome, My Lutheran Brothers and Sisters here today, Tomorrow my Lutheran Campus Ministry Brothers and Sisters and still the next day My Church Family!!!! I am so blessed!!

[Flipper]

LOL

My great aunt, who is a nun, and a very dear person to me, who is a true child of God, made the following comment to my aunt at my wedding at St. John's Lutheran Church:

"One of the nicest weddings I've ever been to, too bad it wasn't in The Church."

My aunt: "uh, this is a church."

Seriously, I laugh now. ^_^


AAAH, my Methodist hubby is home. Gotta go. Love all of you and good to meet you who I haven't met before!!

God Bless!!!

[Phoebe]

I have been stuck in the middle of close to 500 anabaptists all day long, and was not ready for such a fellowship that this forum has just provided!!

It is awesome, My Lutheran Brothers and Sisters here today, Tomorrow my Lutheran Campus Ministry Brothers and Sisters and still the next day My Church Family!!!! I am so blessed!!:blush: Gee. I don't know what to say.
:D (yeah, riiiiiight- I'm never at a loss)

[FR0G]

Those terms might work well, but then we need an "anabaptist" forum in which maybe half of the Baptists would go, but not all of them... It'd get confusing.
But anabaptists are evangelical, no?

[JVAC]

They are but I have this theory, that all Lutherans get a long. Here on Campus there are six of us, and we all kick it. There is just something there, the french call it "Je ne sais quoi".

[seebs]

But anabaptists are evangelical, no?

That depends. Most people would probably call Quakers anabaptists, sort of, theologically... but although there are evangelical Quakers, the Society overall isn't very much like most evangelical churches.