"Nazarene" Versus "Messianic" Judaism

[seibrt7]

We need to open up a discussion about the particular differences between those who call themselves "Messianic Jews", and those who adhere to "The Way", aka "Nazarene Judaism". There are some very important and distinct differences between the two. Many "Messianic" congregations I have visited are no more than the christian church glossed-over to "look Jewish", but no real Jewish observance or culture is found to exist in them. Wheras, the "Nazarenes" practice nothing diffrent from biblical Judaism, except they don't follow the modern Rabbinic teachings of the Talmud, which would be similar to the particular circle of P'rushim that Yahshua was scolding for "adding to the Torah" "making it too difficult to observe". Nazarenes also, obviously, observe Torah according to Messiah's instructions. Messiah took away the death penalty, so obviously Nazarenes are not out to stone people to death for dishonoring the Shabbat, but using Torah as a guideline for living,
Nazarenes try to honor things in Torah, such as Shabbat, to the utmost, such as not driving a car unless it's absoluetly necessary to get to Shul/Synagogue, or to the Emergency Room. In contrast, Many (not all) professing "Messianics" tend to be "loose" about their observance of Torah commands, much like the Christian church. Anybody like to comment on this topic? ~Seibert

[Atkin]

Wheras, the "Nazarenes" practice nothing diffrent from biblical Judaism, except they don't follow the modern Rabbinic teachings of the Talmud, which would be similar to the particular circle of P'rushim that Yahshua was scolding for "adding to the Torah" "making it too difficult to observe". Nazarenes also, obviously, observe Torah according to Messiah's instructions. Messiah took away the death penalty, so obviously Nazarenes are not out to stone people to death for dishonoring the Shabbat, but using Torah as a guideline for living,
Nazarenes try to honor things in Torah, such as Shabbat, to the utmost, such as not driving a car unless it's absoluetly necessary to get to Shul/Synagogue, or to the Emergency Room. In contrast, Many (not all) professing "Messianics" tend to be "loose" about their observance of Torah commands, much like the Christian church. Anybody like to comment on this topic? ~Seibert
It may not be possible to obey the Law without a complete kingdom with Temple and properly appointed priests. Daniel must have had such difficulty while in exile in Babylon. G-d did not make any compromises
when He gave the law. Therein lies the challenge regarding the law.
Disobedient children, adulterers etc should be stoned as commanded in Exodus because Messiah's death did not eliminate those laws.

[iitb]

Just my observations, I could be completely wrong...

I don't know that this distinction is entirely correct. I know a few Messianics that don't qualify as "christianity in a kippah," and I know a few that do. I also know some that don't use any sort of qualifier in front of the religion they follow; they feel that they're practicing Judaism...and also happen to believe Y'shua is the messiah. Basically, you can call yourself whatever you want, but nowadays there seems to be little-to-no distinction between Messianic and Nazarene.

Anyway, you'll find that most on this board fall into the category you've labeled "Nazarene."

By the way, let me be the first to welcome you! There's an introduction thread around here somewhere. We'd be interested in hearing about you!

[yod]

Nazarene of the first century bears little resemblance to Nazarene of today from what I've been told about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong...I certainly don't wish to spread untrue rumors....but don't modern day Nazarene's deny Yeshua's deity? I thought that was the most distinct difference between them and MJism.

[Henaynei]

Nazarene of the first century bears little resemblance to Nazarene of today from what I've been told about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong...I certainly don't wish to spread untrue rumors....but don't modern day Nazarene's deny Yeshua's deity? I thought that was the most distinct difference between them and MJism.
The group calling themselves Nazarenes today, represented by SANJ web site, do indeed deny Messiah's diety.

There may be others using that title who do not. As Justin pointed out, it is hard to make a totally hard and fast ruling on the use of a specific title.

[seibrt7]

what atkins said about the Temple....I've heard it mentioned like that before, althouigh I partially disagree, on the grounds that even if we have no Temple physically, in the new covenant writings, we are called the "temple" and "preists". And if the coming of Yahshua to pay the death penalty for us, cancels out capital punishment (don't get me wrong, I'm just theorizing and have many unanswered questions about these issues myself) then would we still have to enforce stoning to death for appropriately appointed sins? The man gathering firewood on Shabbat was stoned to death. Would we be bringing back such punishment when the physical temple is rebuilt? Or did Yahshua actually redefine parts of the Tenach which were fullfilled at his coming? We still need to observe Torah, but the new Covenant says that that Yahshua became our final sacrifice for atoning sins once and for all. That is only one aspect of Torah which thru Yahshua, was fullfilled in himself.
But everything else in Torah still applies, such as the Moadim, for example- "to be observed thru ALL your generations to come". I also agree, there is not much difference between Nazarene and Messianic, I've just heard it said
that fundamentally, in their pure forms they are quite different from each other. Personally, my entire Messianic congregation pulled a nutty and split,
the half I am part of has bent towards Nazarene practice, and the other half towards Talmud observance. We don't call ourselves Krishna-ians (Christians) and we have veered away from calling ourselves Messianic, so that we wouldn't be confused with many "messianics" that have denied Messiah. and we are independent from any involvement in the church. We are not in any way associated with the church, except for my personal choice to have a little drash on this here forum site. heheheh....

[BenTsion]

Seibrt7,
From your last post, it seems to me that the group you belong to is a 'Sacred Name' group. I came to such conclusion based on your rendering of Messiah's name as 'Yahshua' and your calling Christians "Krishna-ians" (by the way, the name Christians does not derive from the Oriental Krishna as suggested by your post). I'd never heard of a 'Sacred Name' group calling itself 'Nazarene'. Then again, they do call themselves a lot of different names (and I guess it is a very diverse group as well). If so, then there is indeed little resemblance between such group and Messianic Judaism.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Higher Truth]

So, which group of "Nazarenes" are we referring to, as it has become a very trendy "handle" as of late. We have the Nazarene Israel crowd, the Nazarene Judaism crowd, and a few others that escape me at the moment, all with varied beliefs, ALL the original.

[JewishHeart]

First of all, Messianic Judaism really believes in what they are doing. Second of all, mainstream messianic Judaism ( UMJC, MJAA, Tikkun, etc.) does not practice oral Torah. Third of all, messianic Judaism practices relationship with christians and the church because it believes in the reconciling concept of the 'one new man.' Fourth of all, messianic Judaism takes up the practice of New Covenant ethics by being patient with the christian community in its revelation of Jewish roots and still considers them bretheren in the Messiah. Fifth of all, who cares if we look like the christian church with a kippa. At least much of the christian church has a personal relationship with their Messiah Yeshua, while Nazarene Judaism practices the Torah for the sake of Torah and not for the sake of why God created us. The Nazarene movement strains out a knat while missing the camel ! Yeshua brought fellowship and unity in the Messiah between Jew and Gentile. It is true that history shows that much of the Gentile church rejected Israel, Jewish roots, and chose replacement theology. This created a rift between Jewish and Gentile believers. While the Gentile church is accepting once again its Jewish bretheren and their right to Jewish practice in the Messiah, the Nazarene movement is ruining God's reconciling work by creating another rift. This time it is started not by Gentile antisemites, but rather by off-based messianic legalism from Jewish believers?? and Gentile wannabes. I love the Torah as David once said , " Lord how I love your law." The aim of Torah is love!!! The aim of Torah is Messiah Yeshua. Practicing Torah is the calling of the Jewish people in Messiah Yeshua as chief of the nations among a Jewish and Gentile commonwealth in Messiah Yeshua. The calling of Torah for believing Jews is real, but so is the calling of "the Gentile church." The two shall become one, with different callings. It is true that Christmas and Easter have its roots grounded in paganism and antisemetism, but these same christians who ignorantly practice these holidays will know the Messiah better that some of this so called movement who in their pride think they are better because of their knowledge of the Torah. God in heaven sits and laughs, for it will be the simple people with a pure heart and an awesome relationship with God that will receive their rewards. It will be the Gentile granny from the south who cooks pork ( and I am writing this as somebody who keeps kosher), celebrates Christmas and Easter ( again writing as somebody who believes in the feasts), drives on Shabbatt( again writing as somebody who keeps Shabbatt), goes to her Pentecostal 'church' on Sunday (writing as somebody who attends a messianic congregation), and eats on Yom Kippur ( I fast), and pronounces Jesus and God ( I say Yeshua and God). Yes it will be this same granny who will receive her rewards for praying for her lost grandson and seeing him saved, for practicing moral holiness, for loving Yeshua with everything in her, for knowing Yeshua. God sits in heaven and laughs while these people who really practice HIS TORAH miss the heart of HIS TORAH and thus give their rewards to this ole granny. For the wisdom of God is greater than the wisdom of man. God also chooses the foolishness of the world to confound relegious prideful people.

WAKE UP! You don't believe in oral Torah, neither do I. You yourselves create the very sin that Shaul rebuked Peter for. For God has broke the oral Torahs bind from Gentile ( the christian church and not Gentile wannabe Jews or in the case of the two house theory, british israelism at its best) fellowship with Jewish believers, thus making the two one. These Nazarenes despise the christian church and thus despise Yeshua Himself ( the body of Messiah). You complain rightly about the injustices of Catholocism , but yourselves create their same sin. Nazarenes, you have alot to learn from the messianic movement( or what you call christianity in a kippa). Namely, a relationship with God is more important than the Torah. As a messianic Jew, calling me christianity in a kippa is a compliment. It just makes me feel greater unity with the body of Messiah as a whole. Besides this, I would like to see Nazarene Israel's evangelistic fruit compared to messianic's evangelistic fruit ( to be fair because Messianic Judaism is older) in the past two years. The calling of Torah is a great calling, but is just that- a calling. If you make it anything more than a calling you fall into spiritual pride and sin. I am delighted to be called to Torah, but will gladly fellowship AND LEARN from those PRECIOUS believers who aren't. I am delighted to be called to Torah, but am more delighted to be called to freedom of Yeshua.

As for our "loose" practice of Torah, I would be more happy to participate in this looseness than dry legalism. I assign you to read Shaul's encouragement on eating meat 50 times so that you can wake up! Patience, endurance, moral holiness, Yeshua-centered, and love is what guides us "loose" Torah followers. What about you? :bow:

[Henaynei]

ARRRRRG!

[simchat_torah]

nothing like a gentile convert to MJ'ism spreading more ignorance.

oy.

[Achichem]

You yourselves create the very sin that Shaul rebuked Peter for.Putting Jews before gentiles?where?
For God has broke the oral Torahs bind from GentileGo ahead and prove it!
You complain rightly about the injustices of Catholocism , but yourselves create their same sin.:eek: [in the sence that christianity comes from Catholocism]
Namely, a relationship with God is more important than the Torah.This isn't missing
As a messianic Jew, calling me christianity in a kippa is a compliment.:confused: It is, it's saying your masking having a relationship with God, the very thing your calling the problem.
It just makes me feel greater unity with the body of Messiah as a whole.OK, so I am guesing you don't see judaism(conservative,orthodox) as in the family of G-d?If so then please tell me why you go to "messianic judaism" instead of a "torah observant christian church"?Further, if you think chirstian have such the realtionship with G-d, what do you say about their down right idolism? Do you see it as wrong? Or just being a gentile in G-ds family?
The calling of Torah is a great calling, but is just that- a calling.You call instructions, you accept saul so you accept it sould be our source of core doctrine, our instruction in righteous...Yet you think it is as a whole(v. specfic mitzvot) seprate from the calling to G-d's flock?
If you make it anything more than a calling you fall into spiritual pride and sin.:confused: So I for believing it is the "instruction book of G-d" to which tell us about who G-d is(within messiah Yeshua's context) am pridful and a sinner?and the mark of the pasover lamb has no effect on me, yet those you say that outright do what G-d hates, live agaist his torah(not even following the basic noah's commands)[I am not saying all chrisitan do this, just many] it does have an effect on,because I do not love the Lord and my neighbour, first or do not understand who he is?ummmm huh :confused:
I am delighted to be called to Torah,To do more then noahs commands? or from nothingness?
but will gladly fellowship AND LEARN from those PRECIOUS believers who aren't.Honestly I respect that, but must say I have never learn much(abotu G-d or his ways) from jew or gentile who does not base their core doctrine from the torah.I am sure there are some, but to me all I have met are aimless, not holding on to the LORD but their tradtions.I am glad this is nto the case for you.ANd yet, Their the first oen to claim I will spend an eternity in hell, well I say they shall have their eye opened and be shown mercy even in judgment.Yet I am the one who does not know my beloved G-d?
I am delighted to be called to Torah, but am more delighted to be called to freedom of Yeshua.See, I am over joyed to also be marked by the blood of the passover Lamb, but still to me: "christianity"(reformed paganism),"judaism"(orthodox and conservtive) is the theolgy that teachs a realationship between gentile and jew, love and observace,G-d grace and g-d's love, yes Yehsua act need to be included in order to be full, yet not made a center peice to a new form of idolism and I say that believeing yehsua is G-d.
As for our "loose" practice of Torah,I don't know, doesn't sound like it.Of ocurse if your unwilling to grow in that observance then that coudl lead you to being loose.
I would be more happy to participate in this looseness than dry legalism.That a big jump, hold on here, who are you accusing of being a legalist?I call a legalist any who put the law as an idol before G-d.who here does that?
The same crime is being commit when ever you put any power before G-d, even if it within G-d himself over G-d the whole., the eternity.
I assign you to read Shaul's encouragement on eating meat 50 times so that you can wake up!:confused:
Patience, endurance, moral holiness, Yeshua-centered, and love is what guides us "loose" Torah followers. What about you?Is that what your calling it, do you know what defines a "loose" follower?It refer to a very specific ideolgy, just like legalist.

[Higher Truth]

The supposed "Jewish" groups calling themselves "Nazarene" that I have been exposed to are no more like the original apostles and the Messiah, than I am a poached egg. They have been caught in lies, false doctrine, etc. Many of them talk badly about the Christian believers, while thinking they have some "special" or "revealed" knowledge that no one else has. It reminds me of a group years ago that called themselves "The Way", and then were found out for all sorts of illegal and immoral activities. Nothing new under the sun.

[Hix]

First of all, Messianic Judaism really believes in what they are doing. Second of all, mainstream messianic Judaism ( UMJC, MJAA, Tikkun, etc.) does not practice oral Torah. Third of all, messianic Judaism practices relationship with christians and the church because it believes in the reconciling concept of the 'one new man.' Fourth of all, messianic Judaism takes up the practice of New Covenant ethics by being patient with the christian community in its revelation of Jewish roots and still considers them bretheren in the Messiah. Fifth of all, who cares if we look like the christian church with a kippa. At least much of the christian church has a personal relationship with their Messiah Yeshua, while Nazarene Judaism practices the Torah for the sake of Torah and not for the sake of why God created us. The Nazarene movement strains out a knat while missing the camel ! Yeshua brought fellowship and unity in the Messiah between Jew and Gentile. It is true that history shows that much of the Gentile church rejected Israel, Jewish roots, and chose replacement theology. This created a rift between Jewish and Gentile believers. While the Gentile church is accepting once again its Jewish bretheren and their right to Jewish practice in the Messiah, the Nazarene movement is ruining God's reconciling work by creating another rift. This time it is started not by Gentile antisemites, but rather by off-based messianic legalism from Jewish believers?? and Gentile wannabes. I love the Torah as David once said , " Lord how I love your law." The aim of Torah is love!!! The aim of Torah is Messiah Yeshua. Practicing Torah is the calling of the Jewish people in Messiah Yeshua as chief of the nations among a Jewish and Gentile commonwealth in Messiah Yeshua. The calling of Torah for believing Jews is real, but so is the calling of "the Gentile church." The two shall become one, with different callings. It is true that Christmas and Easter have its roots grounded in paganism and antisemetism, but these same christians who ignorantly practice these holidays will know the Messiah better that some of this so called movement who in their pride think they are better because of their knowledge of the Torah. God in heaven sits and laughs, for it will be the simple people with a pure heart and an awesome relationship with God that will receive their rewards. It will be the Gentile granny from the south who cooks pork ( and I am writing this as somebody who keeps kosher), celebrates Christmas and Easter ( again writing as somebody who believes in the feasts), drives on Shabbatt( again writing as somebody who keeps Shabbatt), goes to her Pentecostal 'church' on Sunday (writing as somebody who attends a messianic congregation), and eats on Yom Kippur ( I fast), and pronounces Jesus and God ( I say Yeshua and God). Yes it will be this same granny who will receive her rewards for praying for her lost grandson and seeing him saved, for practicing moral holiness, for loving Yeshua with everything in her, for knowing Yeshua. God sits in heaven and laughs while these people who really practice HIS TORAH miss the heart of HIS TORAH and thus give their rewards to this ole granny. For the wisdom of God is greater than the wisdom of man. God also chooses the foolishness of the world to confound relegious prideful people.

WAKE UP! You don't believe in oral Torah, neither do I. You yourselves create the very sin that Shaul rebuked Peter for. For God has broke the oral Torahs bind from Gentile ( the christian church and not Gentile wannabe Jews or in the case of the two house theory, british israelism at its best) fellowship with Jewish believers, thus making the two one. These Nazarenes despise the christian church and thus despise Yeshua Himself ( the body of Messiah). You complain rightly about the injustices of Catholocism , but yourselves create their same sin. Nazarenes, you have alot to learn from the messianic movement( or what you call christianity in a kippa). Namely, a relationship with God is more important than the Torah. As a messianic Jew, calling me christianity in a kippa is a compliment. It just makes me feel greater unity with the body of Messiah as a whole. Besides this, I would like to see Nazarene Israel's evangelistic fruit compared to messianic's evangelistic fruit ( to be fair because Messianic Judaism is older) in the past two years. The calling of Torah is a great calling, but is just that- a calling. If you make it anything more than a calling you fall into spiritual pride and sin. I am delighted to be called to Torah, but will gladly fellowship AND LEARN from those PRECIOUS believers who aren't. I am delighted to be called to Torah, but am more delighted to be called to freedom of Yeshua.

As for our "loose" practice of Torah, I would be more happy to participate in this looseness than dry legalism. I assign you to read Shaul's encouragement on eating meat 50 times so that you can wake up! Patience, endurance, moral holiness, Yeshua-centered, and love is what guides us "loose" Torah followers. What about you? :bow:


I have never seen such chutzpah in all my life.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[BenTsion]

The supposed "Jewish" groups calling themselves "Nazarene" that I have been exposed to are no more like the original apostles and the Messiah, than I am a poached egg. They have been caught in lies, false doctrine, etc. Many of them talk badly about the Christian believers, while thinking they have some "special" or "revealed" knowledge that no one else has. It reminds me of a group years ago that called themselves "The Way", and then were found out for all sorts of illegal and immoral activities. Nothing new under the sun.


Ah! Good ol' Gnosticism. Every now and then it makes a comeback under a new coat.
I don't know what is more intriguing: that people thing they have to have some sort of secret knowledge to improve their relationship with G-d or that they actually think this is a new/newly-restored idea.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[yod]

It is true that Christmas and Easter have its roots grounded in paganism and antisemetism, but these same christians who ignorantly practice these holidays will know the Messiah better that some of this so called movement who in their pride think they are better because of their knowledge of the Torah

you go girl (or whatever)


Just like the Brass Serpent became an idol, I see the Torah being lifted up in place of the Lord Himself all too often.

there is nothing wrong with the Torah....but it is not the goal. It speaks of something much deeper than instruction in righteousness. It speaks of One who can impute that righteousness apart from the Torah.

Thanks for stirring the pot, Jewish heart.

[sojeru]

well, the Nazarene Judaism I follow is much much different from the one explain by the author of this thread and it would completely go against almost everyones view of a Judaism the speaks badly opf christianity.

This Orthodox Judaism i observe gives great hail to Christianity as a religion for Gentiles but never for a Jew, and it holds greatly to ALL RABBINIC authority- yet it does speaks against the fallacies of christianity. Christians CAN BE great noachides if taught correctly.

This Orthodox Judaism does not like Messianic Judaism (as far as gentiles are concerened) one bit- they give more credit to christianity.

I am not going to explain the differences. I'd rather have honest and sincere people seek the answers out instead of pearls being given to the "cerdotes" (big pigs)

so if anyone really wants to know they could either PM me or Simchat Torah.

shalom

[Higher Truth]

Sojeru:

well, the Nazarene Judaism I follow is much much different from the one explain by the author of this thread and it would completely go against almost everyones view of a Judaism the speaks badly of christianity.

HT:

I am assuming by what I have seen in your prior posts on other threads, that you are referring to Nazarene Judaism, as in "SANJ". If so, please take the time to read this, and if you need more, I will be happy to post them. All of the so called modern "Netzarim" that I am familiar with pummel Christianity on a regular basis.

http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/get_ready.htm

[Salvatore Gonzales]

Didn't the whole "Nazorene" term originally come from
someone who was practicing "Nasori" and its ritual
purifications?

[simchat_torah]

I am assuming by what I have seen in your prior posts on other threads, that you are referring to Nazarene Judaism, as in "SANJ".
Actually, Sojeru has nothing to do with SANJ. He belongs to an Orthodox shul... I will let him explain where he worships, but it is not SANJ.

shalom,
yafet.

[sojeru]

HT:

I am assuming by what I have seen in your prior posts on other threads, that you are referring to Nazarene Judaism, as in "SANJ". If so, please take the time to read this, and if you need more, I will be happy to post them. All of the so called modern "Netzarim" that I am familiar with pummel Christianity on a regular basis.

http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/get_ready.htm (http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/get_ready.htm)

Greetings your Excellency HT,

In fact my group does not like the SANJ at all, they had inviyed him once before to their beir din as a friend of the court, however, he turned around and maligned our group. We werent sure of all that he believed and this happened years back- so he took much of our information- learned from us for a little while and then went on parading as the sect of the nazarenes.

James Trimm is a hoax to the Orthodox Judaism- and he does not see the authority in Rabbinic Judaism, allows hunting to be done and etc.

Antonio

[simchat_torah]

Didn't the whole "Nazorene" term originally come from
someone who was practicing "Nasori" and its ritual
purifications?

Actually, no. Netzarim, or Nazarene in English, comes from the region in Israel that Y'shua was from... Nazaret. Y'shua of Nazaret...


The early sect of believers called themselves after this region. However, modern Nazarenes, or Netzarim, resemble very little of the ancient Jewish sect of messianic believers.

Shalom,
yafet.

[simchat_torah]

Didn't the whole "Nazorene" term originally come from
someone who was practicing "Nasori" and its ritual
purifications?
If I'm not mistaken, you might be referring to the Nazarite vow... something entirely different.

shalom,
yafet.

[sojeru]

Oh as far as his article is concerned, has it not happened in the past that christians have killed off Jews?
So he is right about it- however, he says it as if it something that had never happened before. Hitler, a dedicated catholic revived the Roman Empire (third Riech) and was blessed by the pope- he called himself christian (as there are only two types of christians. Protestants and catholics)
However, KING and GENTLE christians?
I believe those that are truly kind and Gentle will be like schindler- Protecting the Jews- and with this they have gained a place in the world to come- and it is influenced by the little of the words of Jesus that rings in their hearts by the way they interpret ( give the other cheek, and do not be the persecutor)
Tove meod no?

Shalom u'bracha
Antonio

[Higher Truth]

Sojeru:

Hitler, a dedicated catholic revived the Roman Empire (third Riech) and was blessed by the pope-

HT:

Hitler was a dedicated occultist. He may have been raised in a catholic home, but I can not comment as I have never researched this.

[yod]

The Third Reich chain of command was patterened after the Jesuit Order. Himmler and Guerring were both educated as jesuits. Yes, Hitler did sign the Concordat with Rome and the Christian Democratic Party (catholic) of Germany voted him in as Chancellor the next day.

Same thing happened with Mussolini, btw....


but Hitler was never a Catholic. He executed any christians who stood in his way.
It is not a factual characterization to call him Christian or Catholic.

[JewishHeart]

The Nazarene movement has some just concerns with Christianity, BUT and I will repeat my BUT, if you tear down christian believers you tear down the body of Messiah- thus you tear down Messiah Himself. This is a big fat truth. You go ahead and slander christians and watch God laugh on judgment day as you are judged for tearing down Messiah Himself ( because you torn down His body). I actually agree with you about the Acts 15 and 21 Noahacide laws for Gentiles, but once again the ole christian Pentecostal granny who eats her steak rare will laugh at you guys at judgement day. At least she didn't tear down Jewish believers ! God is going to do a thorough cleansing and judgement in the messianic movement ( this includes Nazarenes and Ephraimites) and any tree that doesn't bear good fruit will be torn down and thrown into the fire. If any slander of Messiah's body ( Jewish and Gentile Believers) be found, this slander will be thrown into the fire.

I am a Gentile believer in Messiah who practices the Noahcide laws and even keeps the feasts and kosher for purposes of identification ( since I live in Israel). I was once a Gentile pork-eating, Christmas-keeping, Easter-keeping, Shabbatt breaking, "christian" who had an awesome relationship with God and who was in love with Yeshua. The Lord used me to forgive others, lead others to Yeshua through evangelism, lead others to the Father Heart of God, and lead others to a victorious life in the Ruach HaKodesh. I was onfire for God,and still am ! Today my opinions towards a Tanach centered lifestyle have changed and so has my culture ( as now I live in Israel and am married to a Jewish Israeli). I am a youth leader of a messianic congregation that is experiencing revival in Tel Aviv. I enjoy being a messianic ! If messianic means that I have to break off my relationship with my christian brothers and sisters in the Lord who are still ignorant about the feasts ( or maybe not) and doubt their relationship with God, I want to have nothing to do with it !

MANY PORK-EATING, RARE STEAK-EATING CHRISTIANS HAVE AWESOME RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOD AND WILL BE REWARDED IN HEAVEN ! - If you have a problem with this sentence it shows your evil, prideful, sinful, and shovonist heart.

May the truth of Paul the Apostle ruin your movement of seperation from our Gentile christian brother and sisters.

My last sentence didn't point at anybody specifically, just those who have a problem with this sentence and since I just posted it - then only replies will point the fingers at themselves.


God Bless Israel, God Bless Messianics, God Bless Christians :priest: who Love God ( no matter if they are Noahcide or not)

[Hix]

Judaism believes christianity is fine for gentiles, infact under certain laws such as stituf (sp?) it is entirely permissible under the B'nei Noach (noachide) laws and is therefor usefull in getting gentiles to HaShem.

However the christians DO undoubtably have a violent past against Jews, the crusades and the inquisiton to name but a few, not to forget Jews being exiled out of almost every country in Europe. And alot of antisemitism brews within christianity in the form of this "replacement theology" that somehow the christians are superior and the Jews are no longer HaShem's chosen. That is not to try and justify hatred for christianity within the Nazarene movement, though I do understand how they feel about the fact that christianity is very much pagan.

Your zeal is very much commendable JewishHeart, you do seem to be making alot of judgements that dont seem to be accompanied via a verse from scripture. Such as the pentecostal grannies who eat medium rare steak laughing at us on judgement day....they must have gone into denial. What do you consider to be "good fruit"?

You pray that the apostle Paul will ruin the seperation, but you obviously have not read the Torah in which it calls apon the B'nei Yisrael the Jews to be set apart from the Goyim, to not follow after alien theologies, to not worship other gods. Yes its lonely, your post indicates you want to be accepted and thats perfectly fine, but for the Jews it is an entirely different story and being rejected to hold to what they believe is what its all about when your G-ds chosen.

I have no problems with christianity personally, indeed it has brought countless people to a knowlege of G-d albeit a confused one. And I personally dont believe it should in whole be the purpose of slander as many christian churches including the largest denom, roman catholicism have elliminated any such reasons for anti-semitic hatred.
Having said that I really dont *blush* know an awfull lot about Nazarene Judaism or the different varieties thereof, but to me it does sound alot similar to Messianic Judaism, lo?

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[mylene]

Judaism believes christianity is fine for gentiles, infact under certain laws such as stituf (sp?) it is entirely permissible under the B'nei Noach (noachide) laws and is therefor usefull in getting gentiles to HaShem.

However the christians DO undoubtably have a violent past against Jews, the crusades and the inquisiton to name but a few, not to forget Jews being exiled out of almost every country in Europe. And alot of antisemitism brews within christianity in the form of this "replacement theology" that somehow the christians are superior and the Jews are no longer HaShem's chosen. That is not to try and justify hatred for christianity within the Nazarene movement, though I do understand how they feel about the fact that christianity is very much pagan.

"?

You pray that the apostle Paul will ruin the seperation, but you obviously have not read the Torah in which it calls apon the B'nei Yisrael the Jews to be set apart from the Goyim, to not follow after alien theologies, to not worship other gods. Yes its lonely, your post indicates you want to be accepted and thats perfectly fine, but for the Jews it is an entirely different story and being rejected to hold to what they believe is what its all about when your G-ds chosen.


Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

You've addressed a number of relevant issues and teachings like the Lord's prayer that Yeshua taught could be seen as a change to what Jews were used to.
Which other changes in his lifetime did Yeshua in his bring that was seen as alien theology and wroship of other gods?

Yeshua prophesised about the Catholics making errors well before they even introduced their brand of alien faith so He would also criticise that.

Which changes did He bring in his time before his death that could be seen as
taking away the chosen mantle from G-d's Jews?

[Hix]

Yeshua didnt bring alien theology, I never said that. the christian church did.

Yeshua is the Messiah, and an excelent teacher besides. He came to promote the Torah and write it in our hearts, and bring the people back to HaShem. He will return and usher in the Kingdom of HaShem by ingathering Eretz Yisrael.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[JewishHeart]

Hix,

I am just as radical when I preach against replacement theology and antisemetism in the "church". Unlike the Nazarenes, I actually consider the "church" my bretheren and therefore have a say. I :priest: My goal is " the one new man" in Messiah. Where replacement theologians seperate this cause through antisemetism, Nazarenes ruin this cause through anti-christianity. I also ( stone me for this Nazarenes) step into so-called by Nazarene Judaism pagan Pentecostal,Charismatic, and Baptist churches to preach there about Israel's calling ( GASP!). The difference is that I go in as a messianic with humility and love for my fellow christian bretheren, and not in prideful conceit that I have the right way and they have the pagan way. That is what I think is EVIL about the Nazarene Movement and other radical messianic offshoots, that they throw out the baby with the bathwater. I consider the baby ( onfire gentile believers in Yeshua who attend a church) and overlook the bathwater ( Easter, Christmas, kosher, the church's past replacement theology, etc.). I even know many christians ( uh oh I'm going to be stoned dead for this) who know God in a personal way and believe in replacement theology...RIP.

What I hate about the Nazarene movement it is denies that there are onfire christian pork-eaters out there who really love and SERVE the Lord. This is my parable about the granny. Those who mock onfire christians salvation will be laughed at by those pork-eating christians who really try to serve the Lord at judgement day. I've also met many sweet christian-zionists who have been offended by Nazarenes after they questioned their salvation.

GROW UP! Its time to be balanced and mature in the Lord. I am zealous for balance in the messianic movement. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.


JEW AND GENTILE- ONE IN MESSIAH!

THE MYSTERY OF THE AGES IS REVEALED IN THE SAINTS ( some of whom are pork-eating Easter-keeping christians and some are messianic lovers of God).

[simchat_torah]

You've addressed a number of relevant issues and teachings like the Lord's prayer that Yeshua taught could be seen as a change to what Jews were used to.
Actually, the "L-rd's Prayer" was a very Jewish prayer... see the book:
The Jewish Background to the L-rd's Prayer by Brad Young


shalom,
yafet.

[Hix]

I have read that book Yafet, I would definetly recommend it to anyone, especially those who would deny how Jewish Yeshua was/is.

[Higher Truth]

quote:

That is not to try and justify hatred for christianity within the Nazarene movement, though I do understand how they feel about the fact that christianity is very much pagan.

HT:

Most of the so called Nazarene movements are comprised mostly of former gentile Christians, buddhists, etc who now view themselves as Jews. [there is one group in Israel that has Jews] There are only a handful of these "Nazarenes" anyway, many who have convinced themselves that they are the remnant. There are 2 billion people worldwide who call themselves Christians . [how many are, I do not know] This is in effect, like a gnat screaming at an elephant. I agree with Jewish Heart that we are to love our Christian brothers and sisters, which is a point that I have made over and over on this forum.

P.S.

They love the Christians when they need to sell their "materials" to someone, and have no problem accepting that Christion "mammon". It is so hilarious.

[Salvatore Gonzales]

The Third Reich chain of command was patterened after the Jesuit Order. Himmler and Guerring were both educated as jesuits. Yes, Hitler did sign the Concordat with Rome and the Christian Democratic Party (catholic) of Germany voted him in as Chancellor the next day.

Same thing happened with Mussolini, btw....


but Hitler was never a Catholic. He executed any christians who stood in his way.
It is not a factual characterization to call him Christian or Catholic.


YOD is 100% right that he killed anyone who got in
his way (including decorated aryans like Rommel).
The master plan also included taking out the Christians
AFTER the smaller minorities were removed first. He
had started doing this by having some out-spoken
Chrisitian ministers killed, removing crosses from
Bavarian schools, etc. The crosses were replaced
with pictures of hitler, of course.

[BenTsion]

I agree with Jewish Heart that we are to love our Christian brothers and sisters, which is a point that I have made over and over on this forum.

Amen to that, brother! The answer to anti-semitism is not being anti-christian.
Prejudice is prejudice no matter what form it takes. And as such it is a sin.
Besides, I have always thought of Messianic Judaism as having two goals.
The first and most important one being to bring Israel back to G-d through Messiah.
The second being promoting the restoration of the Jewish roots of the Bride of
Messiah and encouraging the Bride to be sanctified through the Torah (much
of the heresy that has permeated the church has to do with the lack of love for
the Torah). How can we achieve this second goal if we are not loving towards
Christians?

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[JewishHeart]

BenTsion,

I love the Torah ( once again) , keep the feasts, keep kosher, keep Shabbatt, etc. I will not however impose this on Gentile believers. I will inform Gentile believers when asked about the pagan and antisemetic roots of some forms of christian culture ( i.e. Easter, Christmas, replacement theology, etc.). I will not impose their love for Yeshua on following Israel's calling of Torah. I believe this is called Judaizing by Shaul HaShaliach. One day the christians will celebrate Sukkout ( Zechariah 12-14) . What will be its purpose? STAM Torah? ( Stam means "just" in Hebrew). Or Yeshua the Messiah ? I count it all dung for Yeshua the Messiah ! May His name be ever lifted up. Again I love Torah , but will NEVER impose it on Gentile believers. This is Judaizing. We need to get one thing straight. The calling of the Jew and the calling of the Gentile are different according to Torah and according to the B'rit HaChadasha.

Shalom v'chen b'shem Yeshua Mashicheynu

[BenTsion]

JewishHeart,
There is a difference between IMPOSING and TEACHING. To Judaize is to say that one needs to keep the Torah to be saved. It is not to judaize to teach people that if they live by the standards of the Torah, then their relationship with HaShem shall improve. It is time the church goes back to the Word of G-d. A believer without the Torah is a spiritual infant. Spiritual infants are more succeptible to heresy. Torah helps us to straighten out our relationship with Yeshua and it serves as a warning for when we are going astray. How can it be bad to promote the knowledge of the instructions that were given to strenghten our faith in G-d? If the latter is what you call 'Judaizing', then I'm glad to be a Judaizer.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[simchat_torah]

If the latter is what you call 'Judaizing', then I'm glad to be a Judaizer.*gasp!*

well, color me blue and label me one too ;)

[mylene]

Yeshua didnt bring alien theology, I never said that. the christian church did.

Yeshua is the Messiah, and an excelent teacher besides. He came to promote the Torah and write it in our hearts, and bring the people back to HaShem. He will return and usher in the Kingdom of HaShem by ingathering Eretz Yisrael.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

I guess if established teachings of Judaism since the 1st century shared that opinion, we would be a step closer to a better understanding of Yeshua.

As the situation stands now, Yeshua is regarded [by the major contributors , teachers and upholders of Jewish religion since 70CE] as one who departed from what was known as Mosaic Torah and what statements as Jew like Yeshua could make without transgressing the Mishna.

Yeshua has NEVER been absolved (by established Judaism teachers over centuries) of whatever deviations from Torah that were seen by Jewish Religious authorities in his latter day and since 35CE as well. Did he leave us PEACEFULLY?? No.

That is why many people are still in the dark. There is more to this than merely stating the word that he is Messiah.

Please do not assume that a Messiah cannot be tainted by the Religious scholars and teachers on earth for it is they who teach the faith. Apart from partially blinding Rav Shaul, Yeshua may have been silent so far.

[ShirChadash]

JewishHeart,
There is a difference between IMPOSING and TEACHING. To Judaize is to say that one needs to keep the Torah to be saved. It is not to judaize to teach people that if they live by the standards of the Torah, then their relationship with HaShem shall improve. It is time the church goes back to the Word of G-d. A believer without the Torah is a spiritual infant. Spiritual infants are more succeptible to heresy. Torah helps us to straighten out our relationship with Yeshua and it serves as a warning for when we are going astray. How can it be bad to promote the knowledge of the instructions that were given to strenghten our faith in G-d? If the latter is what you call 'Judaizing', then I'm glad to be a Judaizer.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion
DITTO. And I think I would be careful throwing around the words, "grow up", by the way.

[simchat_torah]

As the situation stands now, Yeshua is regarded [by the major contributors , teachers and upholders of Jewish religion since 70CE] as one who departed from what was known as Mosaic Torah ...
The uneducated Jew believes this. However, in scholastic terms, Judaism today recognizes Y'shua was Torah obervant.

[Achichem]

Regarding comment "no matter if they are Noahcide or not":
Do you mean by this they are still all good(saints) even if they are not noahcide or that just we should treat all people in love and respect?

Regarding majority of mainstrem "christians" as in the messiah's body:
How can you say they know the voice of the LORD when they do what he calls detestable in honor of him?

Regarding commets abotu the messiah's body:
So you think messiah yehsua came for the realtionship between jews and gentiles?Cause I think such is a form of idolatry, so I need to make sure, before I comment.

[JewishHeart]

I'm tired of people tearing down the body of Messiah because they don't keep Torah. This is Judaizing. I admire people like Reinhard Bonnke, Jack Hayford, John Arnott, Heidi Bakker, Mike Bickle, Billy Graham, and other "christian" Torah-breakers. If you have a problem with that, you need to check your hearts.

[JewishHeart]

"How can you say they know the voice of the LORD when they do what he calls detestable in honor of him?"


How can you hear the voice of the Lord whenever you tear down the body of Messiah?

[Hix]

How can you type something entriely unbiblical then hope to be credible?

[JewishHeart]

I tell you what, let us part ways. I will go to a Reinhard Bonnke meeting if I need healing and will receive gladly from this christmas-celebrating christian. I will go to Toronto Blessing gentile pagans and receive my fresh touch from the Lord and get closer to Him. I will not compromise the "One New Man."

You go to your Talmud and condemn me and other mainstream christians.


Lets see what happens

[BenTsion]

I'm tired of people tearing down the body of Messiah because they don't keep Torah.

We're not tearing the body of Messiah down. Christians are still part of the body of Messiah as much as we are. But we respectfully disagree with them as far as the importance of Torah for a relationship with G-d is concerned. This is NOT Judaizing.

[Hix]

Who says we are condeming you? You came in here and accused us all of christian bashing then made it seem like somewere in the bible it says "christians in 2004 who follow the religion constatine created will be the body of the messiah".

Christianity is great for gentiles, we have said that. All that is going on here is trying to teach people to observe Torah, not becuase gentiles are saved by it, but becuase it is something HaShem wants. Only Jews are saved by it.

Please do not part ways with us on bad terms, we have not desired to bash you or christians, its all in your head!

Shalom and G-d bless you
~Hix~

[sojeru]

It seems to me that a twisted flush of terminology have been issued to those of us that Observe and are converted.
This is wrong- And I reffer to the term of "judaizer" and "judaizing"
It seems to me that someone does not know the actual definition of judaizing and broadens the term to mean all who are attached to the Torah.

However, we are not Judaizers, Judaizerz are those people who do not know how to Properly apply Torah and thus are legalists for the live and die by the letter of the Law without knowing the Torahs purpose.
The Torah's purpose is to give saftey, not kill and destroy, however, our sinful nature allows for it to condemn us- and so- this shows that to be a legalist is condemned by the Torah if a person should DIE by it trying to obey it.

So, the condemning left and right to observant Jews is a no no- however you who hold on to this can do as you wish.

Jews say that gentiles have no need to try and obey the Torah- they only NEED what is given to them- the noachide Laws which is far less than all the "stringent" and "burdensome" load of the "unwanted" Torah. ( I am being very sarcastic here). I am serious about the Noachides only needing to observe very few commands.
And I am sure that some of us here will even want to fight this without understanding.

And so these people I rightly claim to be LAWLESS ONES in their ignorance...may peace be settled in here so that all can reach understanding of all sides and then conclude to the truth of the matter- that all men are to fear G-D and obey his comandments, for this is the whole (entire) duty of MAN (human beings).

shalom u'bracha

[Achichem]

How can you hear the voice of the Lord whenever you tear down the body of Messiah?*When I say "christian" I am making a generlization to what I see as the majority, I know many christian that do not match what I mean when I use the word in this post.And messianics/jews that Do!
It will be an honor to try and answer your question.

First, I have never torn down someone, I have simply refused to take part in or make a norm out of their unacceptable behavior. Second, I do not slander anyone, because in order to slander one must lie, I have not accused someone of anymore then their own admitted current actions. Third, I do not just speak of doubt about their salvation or saint hood in isolation, but daily challenge my very own.

Those lead by the Holy Spirit fear G-d!

If you fear hell before the LORD your G-d, that is Idolatry!
If you put Messiah Yeshua role before the LORD your G-d, that is Idolatry!
If you bow down and burn incense to a cross that is Idolatry!
If you put the law before G-d that is Idolatry!
If you pray to the messianic role, that is Idolatry!
If you embrace other lords (powers) that is Idolatry!
If you give power to your own beliefs, that is Idolatry!
If you seek after other gods ways, that is detestable unto G-d, how is that in his grace?
Ect….

You may ask yourself, what was the point of that list? My point is that if your focus is not G-d, and his way of Life, be that in the full torah, the Jewish tradition, individual honoring, part of the torah, or just applying love to your life, or trying to perfectly keep the noahcide laws.

But a that man that is good in any such way is so because he fears G-d.

Ok now on the other hand there are others that say with their lips that they love G-d, and fear G-d, they says they know G-d and care for G-d, and their acts have many honorable, but do they fear G-d?

You seem to assume yes, yet lets look further, they teach in their community every Shabbat (yes, a Sabbath keeper) of what is their understanding of the “the way of G-d” and then go home and clearly does not ask themself: what does G-d want, or find acceptable, or what would honor G-d?, No this person asks themself none of this, they simply do that which they have always done. they know that G-d once a long time ago said to a his people to do this not! of course since it is clear that in their "freedom" it doesn’t matter anyway cause they love G-d! Do ther in fact love G-d?








It was said:




“ When you do something bad for yourself do you stop loving yourself? Of course not and in this same way G-d can look pass the bad in his grace.
When you do something good for yourself, must it be perfect? Of course not, it is not the effect of the goodness that matters, but the love generated from the act that matters, and in this same way is it more to G-d the reason for the act then the act itself.
Now I ask: what do you ask yourself in love? Do you balance the decisions, and if you detest yourself what question do you ask then? The answer is of course when we love ourselves we seek goodness for ourselves, and we balance our decision of risk and are aware of self preservation, yet when we detest ourselves, it not that we ask the question what bad thing can I do to hurt ourselves, but instead there simply is not question at all. In this same way as you simply are to yourself, is G-d to everyone, and so knowing this, do you ask?"




So then comes the second question do Christians ask themselves the question or not? The truth of that matter we both know is on an individual basis, but of course we are talking majority here. And the answer to that is quite simple when we ask a few questions; do they keep what is detestable to G-d? Do they know it is detestable to G-d? Are they concerned of the risk? Does G-d will generally override the I? Would they stop it if it became clear to them that it was detestable?





The answer(once again we talking massive generalization here):
-Yes
-The teachers do for sure
-No
-They say yes
-evidence says No

and so my friend, it is my opinion the good majority of Christians (mainly teachers) fail the test and do not ask the question, and if they do not ask the question then how can they know G-d, if they don’t know G-d how can Love G-d,if they do not love G-d how can they know to "fear" G-d, if they can’t "fear" G-d how can they worship G-d. If they worship yet not to G-d, they are not honoring the LORD G-d of Abraham, and then so why would I include them in those set apart by G-d?

Salvation, they have Hope, but sainthood without fear of G-d is an impossibility (of course G-d could make it possible, however there no evidence fo such)

The torah is not a disipline(i.e tulmud) it’s a tool and a sign!

[simchat_torah]

I tell you what, let us part ways. I will go to a Reinhard Bonnke meeting if I need healing and will receive gladly from this christmas-celebrating christian. I will go to Toronto Blessing gentile pagans and receive my fresh touch from the Lord and get closer to Him. I will not compromise the "One New Man."

What is the standard for a prophet? According to what were they to be judged?
Torah.

I have family in the Pensacola revival (where the Toronto Blessing was birthed out of) on the prayer team there, as well as one of my best friends attends the Toronto Blessing. However, without Torah, one can and is sure to be under one of the greatest deceptions of all time. Without Torah, the standard of truth, one can be fed any kind of lie (or spirit). Don't be so sure it is G-d doing the 'healing'. Don't be so sure of anything without a foundation of Torah.

Now, those were words of advice from me as a person...


Here are some words of advice coming from me as a moderator:
You have come to our forums like a bull in a china shop. You have come in quite offensive and ready for an argument. We strive to maintain peace. We strive to maintain a level of integrity.

You have made many charges and some are upset by this. These charges are akin to a strawman as no one here is guilty of the things you so strongly desire to wave as a banner. We do not oppose much of what you proclaim, but you treat us as if we are in opposition.

My words of advice as a moderator: Calm down. Don't look for a fight. If you happen to disagree with any particular words, then so be it... share your reasons, defend your answers, etc. However, it seems as though you came here with an agenda. It seems as though you came here looking to argue.
You go to your Talmud and condemn me...
No one is looking to condemn you. It seems that you are looking for condemnation. It seems you are looking for opposition.


I really was hoping that by now you might have eased up a little. I guess I was wrong.

This is not a warning, and it is not an official moderator action. It simply is my advice. Are you interested in 'discussion'? This is a discussion forum after all.

None of us here really want a sermon. We are here to sharpen one another. I hope that's why you are here too.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Henaynei]

I tell you what, let us part ways. I will go to a Reinhard Bonnke meeting if I need healing and will receive gladly from this christmas-celebrating christian. I will go to Toronto Blessing gentile pagans and receive my fresh touch from the Lord and get closer to Him. I will not compromise the "One New Man."

You go to your Talmud and condemn me and other mainstream christians.


Lets see what happens
I choose to go to the scriptures (Torah first, followed by the rest of scripture)when it comes to the "moves of the Spirit" and not follow after the "new and refreshing" when it can be found no where in the bible, let alone Talmud and the writings of the honored "church" theologians.

I believe you called it right when you said, "Toronto Blessing gentile pagans."

However, I could be wrong. If I keep to those "moves of the Spirit" endorsed by scripture and shun those that are patently extra-scriptural it IS possible that I will miss some wonderful move of the "Spirit" - but it will ensure I will NEVER miss (be seduced astray from) G-d. If the whole of scripture is not our rule of faith and practice, if we allow endorsement of things provenly outside scripture then we have no anchor but what we "feel" is g-dly. This is greviously erroneous territory and terrifingly dangerous.

Whether it is the portions of Talmud that conflict scripture or the teachings of Rodney Howard Brown and others that conflict with scripture - to follow those "conflicts" in preference to the orthodoxy of scripture is equally dangerous. To throw out all Christian teachers or all of Talmud, and our honored Jewish forebearers and their wisdom, is equally blind.

[yod]

If you put Messiah Yeshua role before the LORD your G-d, that is Idolatry!

I don't understand this statement. Yeshua is my Lord and my God.

who do you say He is?

[LibertyChic]

You go ahead and slander christians and watch God laugh on judgment day as you are judged for tearing down Messiah Himself (emphasis added)

I know I'm jumping in late in the game here, but I just have to say that phrases like this disturb me.



MANY PORK-EATING, RARE STEAK-EATING CHRISTIANS HAVE AWESOME RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOD AND WILL BE REWARDED IN HEAVEN ! - If you have a problem with this sentence it shows your evil, prideful, sinful, and shovonist heart.
Wow...this sounds remarkably like my (emotionally and spiritually abusive) ex-husband who once warned me that I "might get into heaven by the skin of my teeth."


Not saying the OP of this comment is like that, but he does sound rather dogmatic in his approach.

Just my random "2 shekels" worth ;)

[Achichem]

I don't understand this statement. Yeshua is my Lord and my God.

who do you say He is?Yes, I guess that does sound a little odd, allow me to explain.

I see Messiah Yeshua as G-d; however, he is not a replacement for G-d as a whole but a role within G-d.

Now let me try to use a tangible example to clarify what I am referring:
Let say we have a inventor and he invents a micro-robot, no let say the robot open his main sensor for the first time and doesn’t sense his creator (because he is to big), it knows he is there because certain sensors tell him so, but its most trusted sensors are unable to. Now the robot starts to build a relationship with its creator but because communication is so hard the inventor finds a way to make him self more tangible to the robot, but to do so he need to work through a part of himself, so he makes his hand visible to the robot and the robot is very taken and learns much from this direct interaction, but now since this one part is more tangible its focus begins to shift from its creator to the hand, soon responsibilities, honour and communication are only now directed towards the hand, this hand is blown out of proportion of it's role and is made in to its own little elohim (key here is sperate from the creator)even though this robot knows who his creator is and calls this hand in creator, so much energy is placed on this one role,the robot looses its relationship with the creator to indulge in a fantasy relationship with this one role.

Are you getting what I am saying?

[JewishHeart]

I think most misunderstood me. I responded , and yes radically, to the first post about Nazarene Judaism versus Messianic Judaism.To me it tore down my christian brothers and sisters. I only responded to other posts of what I thought was defense of the first posts christian bashing. I am a messianic Jew and love being a messianic Jew. I love the Torah. I am only radical because I have had it up to "here" with messianic legalism and Judaizing. I consider christian-bashing Judaizing by the way to answer someone's question. This was my whole point about the sweet ole Pentecostal granny who eats pork and prays everyday to see her grandson saved.

Listen, I love Torah. I preach Torah in christian churches, but preach Messiah first. I even teach about the antisemetic roots of some christian traditions ( Easter, Christmas, Sunday, etc.). I teach to my youth group why we are messianic Jews and are in messianic congregations and not churches. I light Shabatt candles every Shabbatt. I even go to synagogues here in Israel from time to time. I will Bat-Mitzva my daughter. I BELIEVE IN TORAH AND IN MESSIANIC JUDAISM. I do not make it an idol though.

I was on a messianic television show once. They asked my wife and I to preach on Shabbatt and why christians should keep the Sabbath. I told them no. They persisted. I told them no. They then asked me to preach on why we should keep the feasts. I told them no. They persisted. I told them no. They asked me to give my opinion on different messianic debates. I told them no...! My wife and I then went on television, she told her testimony ( she was an orthodox Jewish Israeli), we talked about revival in Israel, and then we preached in Hebrew an altar call for Israeli Jewish people who were watching.

Another time my wife and I were at different places. She was ministering at a messianic congregation in the States and I was ministering somewhere else. Afterwards she had a guy come up to her and tell her that Yeshua taught Halacha in Matthew chapter five. My wife disagreed and said Yeshua got to the heart of the matter. The guy then objected and said He doesn't talk Torah with a woman. My wife laughed ( a former orthodox) and said either Orthodox talk to women or they don't, there is no rule about talking Torah. This <gentile's> kids look like they come out of Meah Sharim in Jerusalem. This guy <gentile> is waiting anxiously to turn forty so he can read Kaballah. I think this is obsession !

We knew another "Torah-observant" person who uses the Torah to say that they need to serve his every whim. His children are 30 years old and not allowed to date !


So when I see statements made by Nazarenes or messianics like , " a gentile will not teach me Torah." Or they will not learn anything spiritual from a gentile christian, I think of these people. I think of the Ephraimites who come to peace-loving messianic conferences and argue with everybody there.

I was very disturbed when I saw someone call mainstream messianic Judaism," Christianity in a kippa." Then they refer to the relationship these congregations have to the christian church.

This is why I am radical for the "One New Man." This is why I get frustrated when I see messianics christian-bash ( read the first post again). Christians have a long way to go, but they are far ahead in other areas. I learn from Pensacola and Toronto people about the presence of God and the Father Heart of God. I learn from Billy Graham what is integrity. I learn from Carlos Annacondia how to do mass deliverance. This people I mentioned probable don't even know what the Noahcide laws are. One of the Acts 15 laws , which I admit needs to be studied more by christians, is to not eat blood ( aka rare steaks). It also says not to eat anything strangled, this would require christians to buy orthodox koshered meat so they would know the manufacturer didn't strangle the animal. I guarantee you the above men of God don't buy orthodox koshered meat. Does that mean we shouldn't listen to them? NO! They have a personal relationship with God ( and if we disagree here then we do have to part ways).

Why am I radical? God is doing an awesome restoration and work in these last days between the Gentile church and Jewish believers. Toward Jerusalem Council 2 proves this in an amazing way. The Gentile Church is recognizing the Jewish believers calling to keep Torah and restoring the hatred brought by the Nicean Council onward. Many Gentile churches are even starting to celebrate the feasts instead of Christmas and Easter. I applaud and welcome this, because in the millenial reign there will be no Christmas or Easter. Many Gentile churches are beginning to understand their Jewish Roots. Most of these Gentile churches affected are in contact with mainstream messianic denominations and not radical offshoots. I know from talking to many Gentiles, radical offshoots of messianic Judaism turn them off. Nobody likes to be accused of loosing their salvation for not keeping the Sabbath. Nobody likes to hear that they don't know Torah and therefore can't teach a Jewish believer anything.

This is why I am radical. I see God doing something and I see many from MY SIDE ( messianic Judaism) attempting to ruin it. I am radical for the move of God. It is ok and great to be radical for the Torah, but let us be more radical for the Messiah and His Body.

[JewishHeart]

Here are some quotes which I find christian-basing.


"but will gladly fellowship AND LEARN from those PRECIOUS believers who aren't.



"Honestly I respect that, but must say I have never learn much(abotu G-d or his ways) from jew or gentile who does not base their core doctrine from the torah.I am sure there are some, but to me all I have met are aimless, not holding on to the LORD but their tradtions.I am glad this is nto the case for you.ANd yet, Their the first oen to claim I will spend an eternity in hell, well I say they shall have their eye opened and be shown mercy even in judgment.Yet I am the one who does not know my beloved G-d?
Quote: "


Here is another quote that disturbed me:

"You pray that the apostle Paul will ruin the seperation, but you obviously have not read the Torah in which it calls apon the B'nei Yisrael the Jews to be set apart from the Goyim, to not follow after alien theologies, to not worship other gods."

Are you saying evangelical christian ( zionist) Gentiles follow other gods and preach a false theology in general?




I am delighted to be called to Torah, but am more delighted to be called to freedom of Yeshua.



See, I am over joyed to also be marked by the blood of the passover Lamb, but still to me: "christianity"(reformed paganism),"judaism"(orthodox and conservtive) is the theolgy that teachs a realationship between gentile and jew, love and observace,G-d grace and g-d's love, yes Yehsua act need to be included in order to be full, yet not made a center peice to a new form of idolism and I say that believeing yehsua is G-d."


"

[Henaynei]

Shalom JH,

Generally it is the rule in Christian Forums to include in a quote the nick of the author. This does not always happen, true. In those cases it is usually evident where the quote is from because of the flow of posts.

However, it is the rule/tradition on CF to include the nick of the author when pulling a quote out of past postings - thus giving the author a chance to explain themselves and others a chance to request clarification.

It would be most helpful.

[JewishHeart]

Sorry,

The first quote I posted was DaTsar

The second one is Hix.

DaTsar in this quote by you:





"OK, so I am guesing you don't see judaism(conservative,orthodox) as in the family of G-d?If so then please tell me why you go to "messianic judaism" instead of a "torah observant christian church"?Further, if you think chirstian have such the realtionship with G-d, what do you say about their down right idolism? Do you see it as wrong? Or just being a gentile in G-ds family?"


Are you calling all christian Easter and Christmas celebraters idolists?

They are ignorant and well meaning, yes. Idolists, I think this is christian-bashing.

[JewishHeart]

"Their the first oen to claim I will spend an eternity in hell"- DaTsar


Datsar,

I never said you would spend an eternity in Hell. I just said generally, those who are christian-bashers will be judged ( not go to Hell). For believer and unbelievers will be judged for every word that comes out of their mouth. The reason I mentioned the granny laughing, because its her that these people generalize and judge as a non-Noahcide.

[Hix]

Let HaShem handle the Judgement, only he knows who he will judge and who he will not. Im sure the old pentecostal grannies can safetly go back to their shabbat cook outs with rare steak and lobster and not have to worry about what HaShem wants. After all, thats too inconvenient.

7 simple Noachide laws, a drop in the bucket in comparison to the mitzvot, and yet they are all too often overlooked. oy vey.

[Hix]

Correct me if Im wrong but wouldnt you call saying jews who aparently hold to the Torah so much they are idolisers, wouldnt that be Jew-bashing? It seems to be you under-estimate just what the Torah is and what it does. To the Jew, the Torah is life, through its pages and the mitzvot Jews can connect with HaShem and enjoy a relationship with him, living the way he commanded they do in their eternal covenant. For centuries all the prophets came with the same repeated message, calling for the Jews to follow the Torah. It is not an Idol as it is not worshipped, but it is a central part to Judaism as well as being G-ds plan for the universe and life. Like I said, the Torah is life.

You quoted me and said "Are you saying evangelical christian ( zionist) Gentiles follow other gods and preach a false theology in general?". I think you slightly missed my point as I was trying to say that Jews are called to be set apart, but yes in general christians have beliefs that have NOT come from HaShem. Mainstream christians preach that the Torah is useless, ive heard them say that the OT is useless and should be torn out of the bible entirely! Or that its only good for history and not relevant, that somehow when HaShem said it was eternal he was being sarcastic? To be a part of such would be disasterous for the Jew who is commanded to live his life following Torah and looking only to HaShem.

Christians will have their place in the world to come, that much even Hassidim Jews argree on. And there are some very nice christians, many of whom support Eretz Yisrael both financially and politically and I have a tremendous amount of respect for them. We have not ment to christian bash, I apologise if I personally have come across this way.

Anyway, Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Henaynei]

I can't speak to the individual experience of others, nor can I speak to the prevailing conditions in other countries. I can say that in the meager 17-year experience of my husband and myself with the MJ movement in the UsofA, the issue has NOT been "church-bashing" (though some have leveled that against us - even calling it "gentile-bashing").



This usually arises when some members of a community suggest movement or show growth toward Torah.



Such as when they state that they would like the synagogue kitchen to be kosher (oh, horrors!! A kosher synagogue kitchen??) so any one who came to worship with us could also share the fellowship meals; or when some members say, with apology, that they won't be able to participate in a community "work" day because it was scheduled on the Shabbat; or one would get castigated for bringing one's own kosher food so one could stay and fellowship at community meals that were not kosher. Things like this are called "gentile-bashing" or "church-bashing." Saying that we want a Jewish service on Shabbat and not a "Christian-style" service in our shul, again "church-bashing." Every move toward real Torah observance, Torah obedience, has been loudly met with cries of "Judaizing" and "church/gentile-bashing."



Jews trying to BE Jews and to restore Jewish worship of Messiah, but never excluding non-Jews from worship, this is called "church-bashing."

Recently, very recently, I have begun to hear that there was *real* "church-bashing" happening. My personal feeling is that while it is indeed a form of LaShon HaRa and therefore a forbidden form of communication, it is also an outgrowth of the castigation and domination that many, many non-Jewish members of MJ congregations and of the "church" community has pressed on the Jewish growth in this movement for many years. AKA Judaism-bashing.

[simchat_torah]

This usually arises when some members of a community suggest movement or show growth toward Torah.
Exactly Ma Lady.

When one grows further in their Torah Observance, or even begins to express a more Orthodox view of MJ'ism, others are quick to jump on them declaring "church bashers!" or worse yet, that they don't believe in the Messiah!

oy.

[Hix]

And im nearly sure thats one of the reasons why theres a vast growing amount of Messianic Jews who attend Orthodox Jewish Shuls instead of messianic congregations.

[ubermandy]

Question for you all:

Do you consider Christians to be worshipping and communing with the same G-d as HaShem?
I am not trying to stir up trouble, but would truly value your input.
Thanks,
Mandy

[Henaynei]

And im nearly sure thats one of the reasons why theres a vast growing amount of Messianic Jews who attend Orthodox Jewish Shuls instead of messianic congregations.
Yes, you are right - for we can find Messiah in Judaism - he was there all along and never left.

[Hix]

Question for you all:

Do you consider Christians to be worshipping and communing with the same G-d as HaShem?
Mandy

The quick answer would be yes, but at the same time they are confused about who G-d is, and for that matter who the messiah is. But I wont get into that as its against the new "rules".

Though traditional Judaism puts these theological errors down to the christians not have the Oral Torah to help them understand about HaShem. So definetly christians at least TRY to worship the same G-d of Israel. And they do enjoy relationships with G-d,

So like I said, quick answer is yes :)

[simchat_torah]

I responded , and yes radically, to the first post about Nazarene Judaism versus Messianic Judaism.
Yes, and every post since then you have made rather offensive statements declaring we will be judged more harshly, G-d is in heaven laughing at us, we are church bashers, etc. (the list goes on and on).

This type of talk is exactly what I'm speaking of when I stated:It seems that you are looking for condemnation. It seems you are looking for opposition.[/qoute]

[quote] I am only radical because I have had it up to "here" with messianic legalism and Judaizing
So, because we say the Torah is the righteous lifestyle that is Judiazing? Because we reject your heretical "Two Torah" theory we become "Judiazers"?


. My wife laughed ( a former orthodox) and said either Orthodox talk to women or they don't, there is no rule about talking Torah. This <gentile's> kids look like they come out of Meah Sharim in Jerusalem. This guy <gentile> is waiting anxiously to turn forty so he can read Kaballah. I think this is obsession !

We knew another "Torah-observant" person who uses the Torah to say that they need to serve his every whim. His children are 30 years old and not allowed to date !

This is only typical of the messianic movement. This is what we are talking aobut when we say "christians in a Kippah". You see, instead of finding the firm foundation HaShem has already laid out, the want to create their own religion based on innacuracies, wild doctrines, and emotionalism. They try to borrow a little bit from every tradition and end up with a mixed up jumbled bag of theology.

They will often work on Shabbat, have sunday meetings, wear tallit, wear kippot, eat pork, and who knows what else.... its just one big mess.

It would do them well to get firmly founded in Torah and a local synagogue. Otherwise, they continue to invent their own religion... these "christians in a kippah".

So when I see statements made by Nazarenes or messianics like , " a gentile will not teach me Torah." Or they will not learn anything spiritual from a gentile christian, I think of these people.
1) No one has said it... you keep making up non-existent arguments. These accusations put you on the offensive.
2) But hey, since you brought it up ;)
No, I will not let someone teach me who despises Torah, thinks the Jewish people are condemned to hell, would spit on Sabbath, think that "jesus" destroyed the feasts, etc.
No, I'm sorry, no matter how many 'demons' it seems that they cast out... will not convince me they have truth in them.

Christians have a long way to go, but they are far ahead in other areas.
I don't think so.
You continue to call these "christians" pagans, etc... yet you claim they are far ahead. You confuse me.

I learn from Pensacola and Toronto people about the presence of God and the Father Heart of God.
I learn from Pensacola and Toronto:
1) The lack of integrity
2) we can put aside study, fruits, and discipleship for "spiritual" experience

I learn from Billy Graham what is integrity.
I learned from Billy Graham that one merely needs to make one declaration of faith (prayer of salvation) and then I can move on to the next city and get a billion more to make this prayer, and move on again and move on again and move on again.
What impact have I truly had on these people? What foundation have I planted? Did I give them anything real?

This people I mentioned probable don't even know what the Noahcide laws are. One of the Acts 15 laws , which I admit needs to be studied more by christians, is to not eat blood ( aka rare steaks). It also says not to eat anything strangled, this would require christians to buy orthodox koshered meat so they would know the manufacturer didn't strangle the animal. I guarantee you the above men of God don't buy orthodox koshered meat. Does that mean we shouldn't listen to them?
Well, considering they don't even have the basics down that were laid out in Acts 15...

Hey, you pointed this out, not me.

NO! They have a personal relationship with God ( and if we disagree here then we do have to part ways).
I am not the judge of that. I think we can judge that what they teach is extremely incorrect. Heck, you have shown that over and over. You went so far as to call them pagans.

Why would I want to place myself under them?

The Gentile Church is recognizing the Jewish believers calling to keep Torah and restoring the hatred brought by the Nicean Council onward.
WHAT?????? Are you nuts?
If I venture out anywhere on this forum beyond the MJ section, I will get flamed for preaching Torah. Just go to the General Theology section and look at the Sabbath thread.
Christians do not recognize Jewish believers following Torah. I'm sorry, but that is simply ignorant.

No, christians do not recognize either the value of Torah or the validity of a Jew following in this path.

Many Gentile churches are even starting to celebrate the feasts instead of Christmas and Easter.
Many? Quite hardly.
Maybe some churches are having Jews for Jesus people come and give a passover teaching (often on the sunday closest to passover), but I have never heard of a single church ever participating in the feasts.

I know from talking to many Gentiles, radical offshoots of messianic Judaism turn them off.Yes, christians like the "church in a kippah" groups. But many of the true Torah observant congregations are rejected as heretical Judiazers. These "radical offshoots" that you mention being rejected by churches are but Torah Observant congregations.

Nobody likes to be accused of loosing their salvation for not keeping the Sabbath
Oh my goodness. I just can't believe how you continue to pour forth more ridiculous accusations.
not one person here has claimed that

Please stop making up these ridiculous charges.

Now, allow me to explain my position here:
No one rejects christians or the church. However, we are not willing, as you suppose, to place ourselves under their teaching. No one here has condemned the church, so please stop making these offensive accusations.


Now let's look at the quotes you provided as "offensive":
"but will gladly fellowship AND LEARN from those PRECIOUS believers who aren't
I fail to see how ANY of this statement is anti-christian.

Honestly I respect that, but must say I have never learn much(abotu G-d or his ways) from jew or gentile who does not base their core doctrine from the torah.I am sure there are some, but to me all I have met are aimless, not holding on to the LORD but their tradtions.I am glad this is nto the case for you.ANd yet, Their the first oen to claim I will spend an eternity in hell, well I say they shall have their eye opened and be shown mercy even in judgment.Yet I am the one who does not know my beloved G-d?
I still fail to see where this quote is offensive.

The base of Y'shua's teachings was the Torah. If someone doesn't have that base, I'm sorry... but there's very little truth to their teaching.

\You pray that the apostle Paul will ruin the seperation, but you obviously have not read the Torah in which it calls apon the B'nei Yisrael the Jews to be set apart from the Goyim, to not follow after alien theologies, to not worship other gods."
This quote honestly bothers you?
So, you would have us follow alien theologies? You would have us follow g-ds?
Once more, I fail to see where the problem lies.



I hope you begin to understand that your false accusations are causing strife. Please lighten up a bit. No one here condemns christians. However, do not be mistaken, we will not place ourselves under their teachings.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Henaynei]

Question for you all:

Do you consider Christians to be worshipping and communing with the same G-d as HaShem?
Mandy
In this context I prefer to use the term "believers" due to the historic pegoration of the term "Christians."

Yes, I believe most believers have the correct heart toward Yeshua:) , but do not know Him in His completeness.:( I feel they are somewhat handicapped by the amputation of Torah and T'NaKah from their revelant scriptures.

In my opinion the "middle wall of partition" still exists as that blank page that seperates the "OT" from the "NT" in Christian bibles.:sigh: In my bible it is torn out!

[ubermandy]

I agree Christian has a much broader connotation than believer.
Thanks for you input Hix and Henaynei.
Mandy

[BenTsion]

In this context I prefer to use the term "believers" due to the historic pegoration of the term "Christians."

Not to mention the fact that every other person in the planet calls themselves Christian. Many of which are (in my opinion) very far from being a part of the body of Messiah (JW's, mormons, moonies, etc.)

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Higher Truth]

BT:

Not to mention the fact that every other person in the planet calls themselves Christian. Many of which are (in my opinion) very far from being a part of the body of Messiah (JW's, mormons, moonies, etc.)

HT:

I agree with your assessment, but lets not forget the many in the messianic movement that are the same way or worse. It has become a circus. [don't get me started]

[simchat_torah]

but lets not forget the many in the messianic movement that are the same way or worse. It has become a circus. [don't get me started]
hahah... yes.... let's not. ;)

Seriously though, I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

[Higher Truth]

quote:

Yes, you are right - for we can find Messiah in Judaism - he was there all along and never left.

HT:

There are 13 million people of Jewish heritage who have not found Him there. If you view this on a percentage basis, it is not that encouraging. God and God alone will do the mighty work that will bring them to the realization, not a religion.

[simchat_torah]

quote:

Yes, you are right - for we can find Messiah in Judaism - he was there all along and never left.

HT:

There are 13 million people of Jewish heritage who have not found Him there. If you view this on a percentage basis, it is not that encouraging. God and God alone will do the mighty work that will bring them to the realization, not a religion.

HT, he is there... without their knowing of it. He is there in the Torah, he was the Melech, the giver of the Torah. He is the L-rd of Shabbat.

I think this was their point at least. Maybe the Jews don't see the messiah (his name anyway) but they know him, his nature, and what makes up the messiah through the Torah.

shalom,
yafet.

[Hix]

Well said Yafet :)

Not to forget when he returns and ingathers B'nei Yisrael, sees the temple rebuilt and the full revitalisation of the sacrificial system, then anyone who doubts him by name will be convinced he is/was the messiah.

[Achichem]

Do you consider Christians to be worshipping and communing with the same G-d as HaShem?I think to some degree;

I mean I think without doubt that when they pray and when small mircles happen in their lives thats being answerd by the Living G-d.It wasn't till I myself prayed to see truth, and do the path of G-d, whatever that meant, that I fully began to understand what I do today. it was mere moments after a prayer like that, when I saw a TV probgram explaining pagan ways v. the ways of living G-d.

Do they worship him? Well I mean yes and no, much of the way I see them trying to praise G-d, are an insult according to G-d's own words.(the biggest one I have seen is rambling open prayers,kissing and bowing down to a cross .ect.)or outright using pagan bleding when the LORD said to not inquire after pagan way ways of worship to worship the LORD your G-d, for every thing which the LORD hates has been done to their gods!So they are trying to but you can't "worship" him in somthing he hates(it impossible), so that worship is worship of idols!(IMO)

So yes they are to some degree, but the main thing that is in question is: can you have a relationship with somone, when you know nothing about them?You do to them what they hate?and there is basiclly a one way communication line?

[Achichem]

"Their the first oen to claim I will spend an eternity in hell"- DaTsarDatsar,

I never said you would spend an eternity in Hell. I just said generally, those who are christian-bashers will be judged.[/quote]
I was refering to certain "chirstians" not you(sorry abotu that not very clear as you can see, hehe), and yes I agree.
For believer and unbelievers will be judged for every word that comes out of their mouth.Actually, I think would disagree, when you say believers do you mean saints?or just a general term? Cause from my read of revelation, only non-saints must go the the judgement seat and get looked at in the judgment, the saints get passed over.

Are you calling all christian Easter and Christmas celebraters idolists?
As a rule of tumb, yes! keep in mind I am generalizing.
They are ignorant and well meaning, yes.
Most are not! IMO
Idolists, I think this is christian-bashing.
please explain

[JewishHeart]

"However, do not be mistaken, we will not place ourselves under their teachings."- simchat Torah

You will not learn from Mike Bickle and the IHOP people what is prophetic worship? You will not learn from Ted Haggard about cell groups?
You will not learn from mighty men of God like Smith Wigglesworth about faith?
You will not learn from John G Lake what it means to be compassionate in the Healing Ministry?
You will not learn from Jack Hayford what it means to be a balanced believer?
You will not learn from Watchman Nee what it means to live a "Normal Christian Life?"
You will not learn from Charles Finney, AW Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, John Wesley, DL Moody, William Boothe, William Seymour, John Hyde, and many other men of God?
You will not learn from the Argentine Revival?


I am proud to be a messianic and learn from types like Dan Juster, Asher Intrater, Eitan Shishkoff, Joel Chernoff, David Stern, Barney Hasdan, and many others.

I have commited myself to keep Torah.

Someone once asked me what I keep. I usually answer with as much as I have a revelation about. Its impossible to keep all 613 without revelation.

What I will not do is judge others who have a relationship with God, christian or messianic, based on what they keep or don't keep.

I am not accusing anyone by this statement, but judging someone by what they keep or don't keep from the Torah is Judaizing.

For example, if you don't let a powerful man of God (christian) teach you because he doesn't keep the Acts 15 Noachcide Laws, you have missed a great oppurtunity to learn- and I would say this is borderline Judaizing.

I never said keeping Torah is Judaizing, I keep Torah and teach to do so. I am thrilled by the messianic movement and how the Jewish people are allowed to be Jewish and keep Torah, but at the same time believe in Yeshua. This is where I live and minister daily.However, Judging somebody's relationship with God based on how they keep Torah- this is Judaizing.

I admit that "christianity" in general has done much harm to the Jewish people and the messianic cause, but there are christian-zionists who don't. I even know replacement theologians who have a great relationship with God ( I will be stoned). I disagree vehemently with replacement theology and preach radically against it. But I do know some Presbyterian Charismatics and some WOF circles who do know God and preach replacement theology, they are misled but do know God. For instance, I do believe some in the Calvary Chapel circle believe in replacement theology( not sure though), but I would call Chuck Smith a man of God who brought forth the Jesus Movement.


I AM SINCERELY SORRY if I misjudged you and you are not christian-bashers ( I never addressed the board as a whole, but only certain opinions that I thought some possess on the board).

I explained myself of the accusation of Judaizing I think, but am really sorry if I misjudged you.

Sean

[yod]

Judging somebody's relationship with God based on how they keep Torah- this is Judaizing.

Romans 14

[JewishHeart]

Yod,

Its been a while since I read Romans 14, but am glad you brought it up. Notice in verse 11-13 it refers to God's judgement when we judge others (and this chapter especially concentrates on keeping Torah). I probably stand in the category of the person who regards one day holy and eats only vegetables in my personal Torah convictions, but I will not dare judge my christian brothers and sisters for not doing the same. My favorite part of this chapter is this verse (17)

" For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (18) because anyone who serves Messiah in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men."


WOW!!!! Righteousness (Tzedek in Hebrew) , peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit makes you pleasing to God. NOT TORAH OBSERVANCE !

One may say righteousness is Torah-observance.

Let's see here . The Hebrew word for righteousness is Tzedek and can be translated both righteousness and justice. It can mean good deeds like giving, praying, and fasting ( " Do not let your Tzedek be done before men..."). In Isaiah 53 it says .." and he shall justify many" using the root of Tzedek ( meaning right standing before God). Tzedek can also mean justice, as in the court of law. When a criminal pays for his crime this is "Tzedek." Out of the three meanings of righteousness according to the context of Romans 14, it is either referring to good deeds ( giving to the poor, etc.) or the righteousness that comes through the blood of Yeshua. I tend to think it is the blood of Yeshua because it is the first of the three on the list and w/o the blood of Yeshua it is impossible to please God and the next verse mentions pleasing God.

By the way - peace ( shalom, shalem) being complete, satisfied, whole, etc. This only comes when one dies to Himself in Messiah Yeshua, then we can be peaceful with one another in the love of Messiah.

Joy in the Holy Spirit- WHEW! Don't get me started ! Sasson v'Simcha !!!! Shadabadashew hahahaha ! Its bubblin, its bubblin, its bubblin in my soul. I feel it, I shout it ! Since Jesus made me whole ! Never loose your first love ! David said , restore unto me the joy of my salvation !


Righteousness, Peace, and Joy in the Holy Spirit - THIS IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!!

[yod]

how dare you be so joyful!

We're trying to have an arguement here.

(hehehehe)

I met Daniel (your worship leader) last Saturday night in Dallas. He's probably back in Tel Aviv by now.

[JewishHeart]

You guys better send Daniel back, we miss the guy.

hahahahaha

sing it with me now everyone ( i learned this song at my old bible school, brownsville revival school of ministry in pensacola florida)

its bubblin its bubblin its bubblin in my soul
i feel it , i shout it , since Jesus made me whole
its bubblin bubblin bubblin bubblin bubblin in my soul

[JewishHeart]

I think the trick to balance is seeing Torah as a "calling" and not a "requirement." I am called to Torah, the Jewish people are called to Torah, the Gentiles are not but will be welcomed for purposes of identification and for millenial reign training ( since the millenial reign will be torah based).

My wife always say Torah traditions point to Messiah or the Millenial Reign.

Lighting the Shabbatt candles reminds us of Yeshua being the light in the millenial reign. We always say Shabbatt Shalom- shalom comes from the word 'shalem' or complete. The lion will lay down with the lamb in the completion ( millenial reign) and there will be shalom

[JewishHeart]

"Mu(sh)(l)a(m)" or perfect also has the root of (Sh)a(l)o(m) and Shalem by the way Shin Lamed Mem, which makes perfect sense when ever you read the scripture in 1 Cor 13 " when the perfect comes..." Basically when Shalom comes , or the millenial reign.. this is the perfect... totally defeating cessationism. L'(sh)a(l)e(m) ( to pay for , or complete a sale) also has the same root. Yeshua paid for our sins and therefore we are perfect. It is fun playing with Hebrew roots. Asher Intrater always says "Netzach" - (eternity) and "Netzachon" ( victory) are the same root and have a divine connection between the two.

[koilias]

One of the Acts 15 laws , which I admit needs to be studied more by christians, is to not eat blood ( aka rare steaks). It also says not to eat anything strangled, this would require christians to buy orthodox koshered meat so they would know the manufacturer didn't strangle the animal.
Acts 15 "eating blood" conundrum again...I see the same confusion come up quite often. Let me just relate what my professors in Israel say about it, which immediately explained the problem. Most MJs might disagree, but I will bank on the students of Flusser on this.

Acts 15:20 prescribes four things (based on most Greek manuscripts):

1) Abstain from sacrifices to idols
2) And from sexual immorality
3) And from strangled foods
4) And from blood


Number 3 and number 4 are often conflated together, but they are separate Noachide laws (because of the word "and" before each successive item).

"Abstain from blood" is Halakhic shorthand for "abstain from the spilling of blood", IOW "Do not murder!". This is the Noachide precept after all! For every drop of lifeblood you spill unjustly, HaShem will require it of you (therefore abstain from it).

Number 3, "Abstain from strangled foods", is the Beit Din's Halakhic interpretation of "You shall not eat flesh with its life, its blood" (Gen 9:4). What was important to Rabbeinu was the manner in which the beast was slaughtered, not the manner in which we enjoy our steaks! Strictly speaking, if the blood is still in the beast it still has its "life". The Beit Din saw the humane intent of the law (do not eat animals that are still alive) and went beyond it! Don't even eat the flesh of beasts cruelly slaughtered!...A wonderful example of the remarkable humanity with which the Jews of Yeshua's circle interpreted Scripture.

[JewishHeart]

Interesting observation that I never did much research on. There is only one problem with the strangled animal part....

most christians do not eat orthodox koshered meat ( meaning they made sure the animal wasn't strangled and the blood was poured out in the right way)

does this mean most christians don't keep the Acts 15 law ?

does this mean christians are sinning?

actually I could agree with you, but still believe there is grace for the gentile that is ignorant of #4

[koilias]

As long as the animal is not cruelly slaughtered, they are not sinning. I really don't think you need a Rabbi standing there to make sure, but others will disagree.

HaShem will have grace on whoever He will. That does not remove from us the obligation to teach the Torah. In fact, we should have Rabbis who make sure that all meat is kosher everywhere, not just for our communities.

[JewishHeart]

may we can get some of the liberal anti-cruelty groups to do the rabis job hehehehe ( coming from a conservative)

[JewishHeart]

by the way

Most secular and traditional ( messorti) Jewish people in Israel hate the kashrut laws. There is even fights over whose kosher labels are better among the orthodox. Most the orthodox who watch to see if the kitchen is kosher in restaurants charge and arm and a leg, eat all the food, and then pronounce the kitchen unkosher so they can come back and make more money for another test. Many restaurants have decided its ok to be unkosher ( besides Jerusalem and maybe Safad) especially in Tel Aviv. I've known traditional restaurants who cater to the orthodox to shut down on Passover season just because it would cost them more money to pay the rabi who tests the restaurant and stay open than for them just to close. Haifa is like Tel Aviv in that it is extremely secular. Its the only city where busses still run on Shabbat.

[koilias]

Coming from a liberal hehehe, I'd be glad to do it. Don't wear fur either! Those animals are often strangled!!

But seriously, some liberals have the Torah in their hearts, they just miss the big picture. Focusing on animal rights is losing the emphasis of Torah as Yeshua taught it. Empathy for your fellow human being is far more important.

[Henaynei]

most christians do not eat orthodox koshered meat ( meaning they made sure the animal wasn't strangled and the blood was poured out in the right way)

does this mean most christians don't keep the Acts 15 law ?

does this mean christians are sinning?

actually I could agree with you, but still believe there is grace for the gentile that is ignorant of #4
Scripturally the greater burden falls on their teachers, this does not absolve them of the sin, just that teachers have twice the burden as "laity."

As to the question of is this sin, absolutely, but I seriously doubt tht it is the only sin they, or you or I commit daily. The goal, as always, is to respond quickly to any sins of which we have been made aware.
The problem is when people say, I have always done X or Y and I still love G-d, once they have been made aware. To my mind, that is rebellion and one of the most grevious sins.

Not unlike the man who sees a new speed limit sign, on a road he frequently travels, for the first time. He says to himself, "I've been traveling 55 on this road for the last 10 years, there is no reason for me to slow to the 35mph on that sign." Suppose you that the judge in traffic court will accept that reasoning?? (from lesser to greater) How much more our responsibility to the mitzvot of HaShem??;) If, on the other hand, it could be proved that the man never saw the new sign because his vision was impared, the Judge may respond differently!! (The topic of why a blind man was driving in the first place is deferred for another discussion!!:D

[simchat_torah]

You will not learn from Mike Bickle and the IHOP people what is prophetic worship?Mike Bickle was my youth group leader in High School and Jr. High. I know him well, but unfortunately, no... I will not pattern my worship around someone who does not follow righteousness (let alone some pretty scary unfulfilled prophecies). I think maybe I'll choose David to follow as an example of worship (and prophetic worship at that!)



You will not learn from Ted Haggard about cell groups?While cell groups are a fancy invention, they certainly aren't a 'biblical standard' so to speak. However, if I were to pattern after anything, I might turn to Acts and follow how the first believers were instructed in this manner.



You will not learn from mighty men of God like Smith Wigglesworth about faith?[/qoute]

Smithy...while a good man, has many 'unverified' stories about his life. As well, again, he did not live according to Torah, thus I can not trust his words...

So, I think for faith, I might choose Eliyahu.



[quote]You will not learn from John G Lake what it means to be compassionate in the Healing Ministry?I think Y'shua was a better example.



You will not learn from Jack Hayford what it means to be a balanced believer?Let's see... he teaches:

1) Replacement theology

2) Pagan doctrine (christmas/easter, etc)

3) against torah....



etc etc etc....



Nah, I think he is a rather bad example. I might choose someone like Sh'aul who was a wonderful balance between the Torah, witnessing to the people, teaching, living holy, etc.



You will not learn from Watchman Nee what it means to live a "Normal Christian Life?"Well, I'm not a christian. So, I guess no.



You will not learn from Charles Finney, AW Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, John Wesley, DL Moody, William Boothe, William Seymour, John Hyde, and many other men of God?Why would I even bother? None of them uphold even the most basic of instructions given in Acts 15! If they don't even have the basics down, how can I model my life after them?

I have a plethera of other figures to watch who are living a holy lifestyle before HaShem.



You will not learn from the Argentine Revival?Let's see... the numbers that I last heard was something to the effect that this revival has had a lasting effect on less than 5% of the people who attended.



Not a real good track record.



Pensacola and Toronto (though the exact number slips my mind) was less than that even!



hmmm... no, I tink I won't 'learn' from them, I have revivals such as those in Acts to study from. Revivals which created a resounding effect not only in their time, but through the centuries.


On a side note, I decided some time ago that I wasn't going to go "chasing after every wind of the spirit" that blows by. HaShem will use those who are faithful.

What I will not do is judge others who have a relationship with God, christian or messianic, based on what they keep or don't keep.No, I'm not judging them, that is for G-d alone.



However, I can choose who to model my life after and who to study under. We are to be cautious and careful about who we place ourselves under. I'm doing just that.



I am not accusing anyone by this statement, but judging someone by what they keep or don't keep from the Torah is Judaizing. Not quite. Judging someone's salvation based on their stance with Judaism, or judging their salvation based on their stance on Torah is Judaizing.



If proclaiming the mitzvot are righteous, then label me a judiazer.



For example, if you don't let a powerful man of God (christian) teach you because he doesn't keep the Acts 15 Noachcide Laws, you have missed a great oppurtunity to learn- and I would say this is borderline Judaizing.I'm sorry that you have been deceived to think these men are 'powerful'. I have had the likes of Mike Bickle, Pual Cain, Dr. Michael Brown, and many more to lay hands on me, study under, etc.
I'm not stating anything about their character... but you could point out a wonderful Muslim who has stellar character, but I'm not going to place myself under them.

The verse in my signature reads:"Those who love the Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." -Tehillim (psalms) 119:165

I have a firm foundation in the Torah, and I have the teachings of the Messiah to help me properly interpret/apply it to my life. I don't need men who tear down this solid foundation over me in authority.

no thank you.

Shalom,
Yafet.