HaSatan

[Pray4Isrel]

I attend an incredible Bible study that my dad has been teaching for several years. Well, once a month we break away from our reading and do a topical study.
Next Tuesday's topic is: Satan
The study has 16 members and each member is from a different denomination/affiliation. We were given a paper asking basic questions about Satan, which of course are pretty easy to answer. However, it really opens your eyes when you realize who your Enemy is... which is the purpose of this topic: To know who your Enemy is so you can defeat him.
Anyway, what are your thoughts, as Messianics, on who Satan is and what he is out to do?

[simchat_torah]

I'm sure there will be many resonses, but one thing I believe needs to be emphasized is that HaSatan is out to destroy G-d's purposes...

Considering His calling is always upon the Jewish people, one of his greatest objectives is to destroy them.

Just look at the Halocaust.

[Hix]

Satan is an angel, like all angels he isnt born with free will as we have been. He does what HaShem tells him to do, his purpose is to tempt us, prosecute us in Heaven and also to be the angel of death. He is the evil inclination within us, the very reason that we have free will, which is why HaShem has given him this dirty job.

Satan in hebrew literally means Hinderer, his job is very important when considering why we are here and why HaShem decided to create us. Instead of having more angels worshipping him, HaShem wanted people to worship him of their own free will, to overcome trials and temptations and to pass the test. That is why we have been given the evil inclination, which also gives us free will.

So yeah Satan is an angel following G-ds orders like the rest of them, BUT however we can overcome his temptation and the evil inclination towards sin within, as the Talmud says men are greater than angels, for we can fight with the angel Satan and win. Every day we have fights with the evil inclination within us, but HaShem says to turn our eyes to him and the Torah and we can make it through.

Satan unfortuntaly is very subtle about his job, he often times tries to cover up sin in many ways or disguise it. We are not capable of ever totally destroying Satan, but we can gain the upper hand on him with HaShems help as the Talmud explains that the Evil Inclination constantly attempts to destroy us spiritually, and Hashem constantly helps us and gives us the means with which to overcome our Evil Inclinations.

Satans time will come to an end after the day of Judgement, there will be no sin or no death, his role will be completed. He will cease to exist, Baruch HaShem. But untill that time it is important that we all stay close to G-ds word, and trust that with his help, we can overcome Satan.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Sephania]

the purpose of this topic: To know who your Enemy is so you can defeat him.



If I may? It is very good to know your enemy so that you can be aware of all that he can do to you and the many different ways that he can attack. Satan's biggest deceptions are that:

1. He doesn't exist at all
2. He is harmless ( a little red joker with a pointy tail and the staff of Neptune)
3. He is a "heavenly" being, as he is an angel of light.



The biggest mistake one can make is to think that they can defeat him themselves, not true, there is only one that can do that and in whose name we can use and that is the Messiah who shed his blood so that we are now overcomers of the father of lies.

One must also know that he cannot do anything that that Lord won't allow, He uses him to test us and to teach because He loves us, read Job for a very clear picture of this.

One more point that I can think of right now is that Satan is now the ruler of this world, he still has power over it until that final day. We ( believers) are just aliens living here until our final home is ready. :)

[simchat_torah]

Satan is an angel, like all angels he isnt born with free will as we have been.
Not according to Judaism.

The Angels were given explicit instructions and disobeyed. Many are chained in the Abyss currently. See I Enoch, II Peter, Jude, Revelations, etc.

shalom,
yafet.

[Sephania]

It is written that he is the cheribum that covers, one that was in the Garden of God, as well as he was covered with every precious stone, ( would this be any relation to the High Priests epod? sp?) As cheribum were used to guard the garden after the fall and cherubim used to "cover" the mercy seat on the ark, his postion must have been great, before he "fell".

It is also written in Ezekiel that he was not just a cherubim but an annointed one, what is the meaning of that?

[P_G]

Ha'Satan - The angel perhaps even an Archangel who was named Lucifer fallen from grace for his pridefull sin of desiring the plasms of praise intended for Ha'shem for himself.

I beleive based on Job that he has access to the throne room of G-d and stands always as the accuser of the righteous.

I beleive accourding to Issiah that he is not ugly but rather shows up as something profoundly beautiful "an angel of light"

Most of all based on his behavior through all of the Bible that we can see he despises The Holy One! His great sin is pride and jelousy bourne of covetousness. He hates G-d for what G-d has and is due. Thus he hates all of G-d's creations and most of all he hates that which brings glory and honor to Adonai! :mad:

As such don't take it personally that Ha'Satan hates you. He hates anything which is doing what G-d says to do. He trys us not for some trial for The Holy One but because he despises what G-d stands for. The battle always was and always will be untill the end between Ha'Satan and Ha'Shem. We are mearly cannon fodder.

Blessings

PG

[Hix]

[/font]
Not according to Judaism.
[/font]

Yafet:

Actually that is the traditional Jewish interperation and it is found in the Talmud, and one that I was taught in Shul. Please check out the following link on "Does Judaism believe in Satan" to find the traditional view of the Evil Inclination:

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

Satan is not evil, how would he be? He was created by HaShem and without free will could not be evil, and to have free will he would need his own satan :S it is impossible, and not the Jewish Interperation

Oh and if you want to check other sources on this you could look at Judaism 101 aka JewFAQ on its slightly complicated discription of the yetzer ra (Evil Inclination - Satan) in its "Human Nature" section and how it is created by G-d and all things created by him are good, and in fact, it is needed for free will.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[ShirChadash]

*question*

Is HaSatan destined for a "lake of fire", destruction, eternal separation from HaShem... any sort of "punishment' if you will, whatever you choose to term it?

[simchat_torah]

Judaism does teach the idea that angelic hosts have free will. As far as HaSatan is concerned, it is only modern Judaism that teaches differnetly about his role... that G-d created him evil, etc. That idea can't be found in 1st century Judaism, or ancient Judaism.

Funny thing though, in Judaism there seems to be inconsistency... Angels have free will, but Lucifer does not.

go figure.

[simchat_torah]

You will see in I Enoch the angelic hosts broke G-d's command... and entered into union with female humans. They went against G-d's command and were subsequently punished by being placed in chains in the abyss.

[Hix]

Satan doesnt have free will, NO angels have free will, they are like robots created to serve HaShem and the roles he sets for them. That is the Jewish idea on it, and can be found in the Talmud.

Satan is like a robot, HaShem created him and gave him the role to hinder us (hence his name) he becomes our evil inclination, without which we cannot have free will. He tempts us with things HaShem has delclared to be wrong, so that we can chose either good or bad. That is his role.
Nowere in Judaism have I ever seen, been taught, or heard of any angels having free will. This theology was invented by christians, along side the trinity.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[P_G]

Sister Hix

I really have to disagree with you on this one
Look at what it says in Jude:

Jud 1:6 And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;

I think that if these were Robots that they could not have left there place and gone and done something else.

Ha'Satan is just one of thes angels.

PG :wave:

[Hix]

Shalom!

Thanks, I really do have alot yet to learn. BTW you said sister hix and er....I am your chaver! :) *points to male icon*

Shalom and G-d bless you
~Hix~

[simchat_torah]

I was just about to say... hehhe...

Maybe its the uhh... avatar that confuses? If and only Animae was more mainstream.

*sigh*

That would be a brighter world. Wouldn't it?

[nephilimiyr]

You will see in I Enoch the angelic hosts broke G-d's command... and entered into union with female humans. They went against G-d's command and were subsequently punished by being placed in chains in the abyss.
Hi Simchat_torah :wave:

I'm sorry for all the trouble I caused lately...You know what I mean, please forgive

Just a quick question for yah. If you notice my name you can imagine that I have studied Enoch. Is the Book of Enoch a widely studied book within the Jewish faith? If so does it continue to be while in Messianic Judaism? I know some people would rather chew on glass then take the Book of Enoch seriously. I know I don't like to use the Book of Enoch when discussing this subject but I have gained insight from it.

[Hix]

Yafet:

ahhhh your telling me! A Brighter World indeed, come to think of it Quatre does kinda look like a female, he is wearing pink after all. Il have to change that soon.

Sleehah to go off topic ;)
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Atkin]

Satan doesnt have free will, NO angels have free will, they are like robots created to serve HaShem and the roles he sets for them. That is the Jewish idea on it, and can be found in the Talmud.

Satan is like a robot, HaShem created him and gave him the role to hinder us (hence his name) he becomes our evil inclination, without which we cannot have free will. He tempts us with things HaShem has delclared to be wrong, so that we can chose either good or bad. That is his role.
Nowere in Judaism have I ever seen, been taught, or heard of any angels having free will. This theology was invented by christians, along side the trinity.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
Interesting post. Does it mean Satan will be retired after some time when
he is not needed? Is there a judgement for him?

[Pray4Isrel]

I believe even Satan will be "judged" in a sense - he'll have a nice lake of fire waiting for him.

[P_G]

Shalom!

Thanks, I really do have alot yet to learn. BTW you said sister hix and er....I am your chaver! :) *points to male icon*

Shalom and G-d bless you
~Hix~

:blush:


I went looking for an emoticon with a Dunce cap on

So very much my bad!



Satan surely will be judged
Absolutely Judged

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

.......

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.




Now you want Halaichal discourse call the Rabbi
You want Hell Fire and Brimstone
hehehe
Call me ;)


Blessings
PG

[Pray4Isrel]

Any other input?

[Pray4Isrel]

Anyone, Anyone, Bueler, Bueler?

Tonight is the study and I am to help represent the Messianic view of who Satan is.
Should be interesting since we have 3 other Messianics, 1 Catholic, 3 Methodists, 2 Lutherns, 1 Baptist, 2 Charismatic, 1 Presbyterian, 2 undecided (lol) and a partridge in a pear tree! :D

[ubermandy]

I participate in weekly "religous" study with a Scientologist, a Jew by birth though not by "religion", myself :), and my husband. You would think that my husband and I are on the same page, but recently we've discovered that we have some differing views (mostly on minor things)
The discussions are tough because our fundamental beliefs are not the same.
We all agree that G-d exists although the Scientologist would say a higher power or something like that. Anyway, G-d can overcome that and reveal himself to people who are searching.
Blessings to your group,
Mandy

[Henaynei]

Anyone, Anyone, Bueler, Bueler?

Tonight is the study and I am to help represent the Messianic view of who Satan is.
Should be interesting since we have 3 other Messianics, 1 Catholic, 3 Methodists, 2 Lutherns, 1 Baptist, 2 Charismatic, 1 Presbyterian, 2 undecided (lol) and a partridge in a pear tree! :D
I can not say what the rabbis say - though some of what I have heard said here that they say is in no way what I have understood it to be.

Essentially, Lucifer (literally-Light Bearer - he "bore" G-d's light to all) was a specific and special creation - "the covering cherub" - who was colorful light and music, all designed to worship G-d. He was the one who was the closest to G-d in all ways except power and authority. He had to have had free will because scripture states that he rebelled - and the angels have to have some will as 1/3 chose to rebel with him. He was cast to the earth and is the avowed enemy of G-d and all that G-d loves, essentially all creation. He is no longer the Light Bearer, but still has the ability to deceive and appear as the "Angel of Light."


Since the Jewish people are "the apple of G-d's eye" and both the vehicle of G-d's prophecies and the instrument of deliverance for all mankind (i.e. Yeshua), HaSatan (heb. - literally the adversary, or contender) hates the Jewish people with a special ferver. He has contended many times in the past, in the cosmic and historic arena, to eliminate them, and continues today, so that he can prove G-d false - for if the Jewish people cease to exist then G-d's prophecies and His Word would fail and HaSatan will have beaten G-d. Hopeless, you may say, but that is his supreme goal.

[Henaynei]

How did the Bible study go last night??

[Pray4Isrel]

It was awesome, thanks for asking!
We used Ezekiel (forget which chapter) that talks about Lucifer and describes his fall.
Then we discussed the Who What When Where Why How questions about who the Enemy is.
It was very interesting and very fascinating to have so many different denominations represented and sharing their knowledge.
And, of course, it always spurs us into huge theological discussions - my favorite part! :D
Overall, it was a great in-depth study and very informative.

[Sephania]

Since the Jewish people are "the apple of G-d's eye" and both the vehicle of G-d's prophecies and the instrument of deliverance for all mankind (i.e. Yeshua), HaSatan (heb. - literally the adversary, or contender) hates the Jewish people with a special ferver. He has contended many times in the past, in the cosmic and historic arena, to eliminate them, and continues today, so that he can prove G-d false - for if the Jewish people cease to exist then G-d's prophecies and His Word would fail and HaSatan will have beaten G-d. Hopeless, you may say, but that is his supreme goal.

I totally agree with this, and any who can't see this are spiritually blinded, and I won't say by who. :)

[ILY]

Shalom all,
I hope you don't mind a non Messianic view.

Satan wishes to raise his throne above G_d's.I believe he is an imitater/deciever as well, and wishes to deceive the brethren, and will nearly deceive the very elect.

Frankly in my view his works of deception are coming to the surface more and more.

Here's an interesting view someone shared with me.It *seems* deception *could be* the main course for some


THE SATANIC SETUP

One Muslim apologist writes:
“Muslims and Christians have some serious disagreements regarding this issue. Briefly, Christians believe that Jesus will come down to earth and fight for the state of Israel the army of Gog and Magog in the battle of Armageddon, and this army will be soundly defeated and will be thrown into the lake of sulfur.” What seems to be quite ironic to me is that those Jews that Jesus is supposedly going to fight for don't even believe in Jesus as GOD himself nor as a Messenger of GOD.

A quote from a Muslim:

“Now without being biased, we Muslims have a story that makes a lot more sense and is empty of contradictions! We believe that Jesus peace be upon him will come down to earth toward the end of the world time to fight the army of Satan which will be mostly from the Jews and the deceived from the Christians. Some Jews and many Christians will be among the good and blessed who will fight along with Jesus. The army of Satan will be lead by a person who will claim to be Jesus Christ himself. The Muslims will call him the Dajjal or the Deceiver. The real Jesus' army will fight the Dajjal's army and defeat him. The empire of Israel will fall, and the religion of Islam will prevail. The signs that will reveal to us the coming of Jesus peace be upon him are when the Jews do mischief; see Noble Verses 5:64 from the Noble Quran for more details.”

I have heard some say that this Jesus some Muslims maybe looking for will come carrying a Quran!!!

I am not trying to cause a debate, just making an interesting point etc...

Shalom and shalom
ILY <><

[ShirChadash]

VERY interesting point, ILY! Thanks for sharing that.

[ILY]

Shalom Zimirah, :) :hug:

You're very welcome.
I bumped the thread I started with a former Palestinian terrorist, who is explaining what he was taught as a child in Israel, and the hatred that is still being indoctrinated in them.I may have put too many links to various interviews and a speaking engagenent he Walid Shoebat did, confusing the link to the video.Personally I think it is of the utmost importance that everyone watch the video and see what is being taught, and how Walid who is now a Christian Zionist, turned from hate to love, and wants to tell his people how wrong the teachings are.Of course at great risk to himself.

Oops sorry for straying from the topic, sort of. :o

YbiY
ILY <><

[ShirChadash]

Shalom Achi ILY


I haven't had a chance to watch that yet; I just got a new comp and so I hope to get it to run on my slooooooooow connection speed now. :) Nonetheless, I have heard Walid's story before and I agree with you. Extremely important for anyone who doesn't know what Palestinians are raised to believe... hatred is so ingrained in them :(

[ILY]

Shalom Achi Zemirah,
It will play but it does take a long time to download, but it's worth it.Maybe one day I'll get the fast access and be able to view these things much quicker.

Ok have a blessed week

YbiY
ILY <><

[ILY]

Shalom all,
Anymore opinions on the enemy of everyone's souls?

ILY <><