What do MJ's believe about election to salvation?

[theseed]

In the Protestant forum there is often much debate on what the NT means by election. Some (Calvinists) believe that God choses who will be saved and man has no choice in the matter because he is "totally depraved' and could never come to God on his own. Others (Arminiast) believe that God chose those people he knew ahead of time would choose him. Others believe that God does chose people but they still have a responsiblity to believe. Do you all know what I am refering to? Also read Romans 9, on how God says he will have mercy on whoever he wants. :help:


Here are a couple sites that talk about this and God's soveriegnty.


http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t008.html
http://www.spreadinglight.com/theology/

[Henaynei]

Judaism (and that includes *most* of MJism), having gotten it from the T'NaKah (OT), has always believed in free-will. G-d freely wills us salvation by His grace and sacrifice, we have the free will to accept or reject His path to get there, but it is the ONLY path that will get there.

[Hix]

Man is born with an evil inclination, this is how we have free will and why HaShem commands Satan to give us that evil inclination so that humans may overcome it to worship HaShem. Angels dont have free will and do what G-d commands them, but G-d does not want more people like angels who will worship him becuase they have no choice but to. He gives us free will.

So yes I personally as most MJs would believe that ANYONE can accept G-d and follow him, by overcomming the evil inclination within.

Shalom and G-d bless!
~Hix~

[theseed]

Satan to give us that evil inclination so that humans may overcome it to worship HaShem. Angels dont have free will and do what G-d commands them, but G-d does not want more people like angels who will worship him becuase they have no choice but to. He gives us free will.


I'm no OT scholar, but didn't Satan exalt himself over God when he was called Lucifer? (Isaiah 9?)

Also read Romans 9, many agruments come from here, on how God will have mercy on whoever he wants.

[theseed]

Who is HaShem?

[Achichem]

Who is HaShem?It hebrew for "the name" and refers to G-d.
I'm no OT scholar, but didn't Satan exalt himself over God when he was called Lucifer? (Isaiah 9?)
I don't know about most here, but I don't believe that is refering to HaSatan at all, but a real man named Lucifer.

[Hix]

What we are touching on here is the reason why were are here at all. Why did HaShem create us in the first place? So that we could worship him, but unlike angels we would overcome the evil inclination pushing us to all the sinfull things against G-ds Torah, and making us think they feel good.

The Hebrew word "Satan" means "Hinderer." To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.
Temptation is there to try and deter us. It gives us the ability to do the wrong thing. More importantly, it gives us the ability to look at evil and refuse to do it. By presenting us with the opportunity to do evil, it gives us the ability to choose between good and evil.
Satan is not, at least in my opinion and traditional Jewish opinion, a rebellious angel. The angels are spiritual and holy, and the presence of Hashem's holiness is everywhere. Could you stay dry in the ocean? An angel could not stop being holy. There is holiness everywhere in Creation, everywhere in the universe, and angels are made of the same thing. An angel could not stop serving G-d even if he tried. Furthermore, humans have Satan to tempt us. Angels have no Satan to tempt them. Who would be Satan's Satan?

A man once came to a great Rabbi, very troubled. He said to the Rabbi, "Please pray to Hashem to take away my Evil Inclination. I do so many sins, and I want to stop sinning!". The Rabbi answered, "Then what would be your purpose in this world, if you had no Evil Inclination? Your purpose in life is to overcome your personal Evil Inclination. That is what you were created for! Hashem has enough angels in heaven. He doesn't need one more. He created you human, so that you could improve yourself."

That is at least my take on it, this in my opinion means that any man has the ability to come to G-d and believe Yeshua was the Messiah etc. I have heard the calvanistic aproach that G-d choses who will come to him and we do not have the choice, would that be your opinion on the matter theseed?

Shalom and G-d bless you
~Hix~

[theseed]

I'm still investigating. In greek, Satan measns advasary? Have you heard about Satan taking a third of the angels of heaven with? This is off topic with the OP, but I'm curious.

[theseed]

So, from what i gather, you all believe in free will, unlike the Calvinist.

[Henaynei]

So, from what i gather, you all believe in free will, unlike the Calvinist.
LOL - I am definately "unlike the Calvanist." Unless YOU are Hobbes!!

[theseed]

LOL - I am definately "unlike the Calvanist." Unless YOU are Hobbes!!
LOL! Calvin and hobbes are hilarious. :)

[theseed]

Guess what, according to www.wikipedia.com (http://www.wikipedia.com) Calvin and Hobbes is named after John Calvin

[koilias]

Shalom TheSeed...good to meet you here! ;) Yeah, I tried once to hang out with your crowd, and I admired how courageous you were...get ganged up on a lot huh? You're a man after my own heart. Keep it up. I gave up on them when I realized they immediately write you off as "a little off" when they see you are a Messianic.:D
Just to give you my little ol' Messianic oppinion. All the days of your life are written for you in HaShem's book...meaning you got a certain number of them and it's more like a checklist with two or three columns in it: "good", "bad" (and maybe "dopey"). It's up to you to decide which square to check. HaShem understands and scrutinizes our thoughts (Psalm 139), He doesn't write 'em.

[koilias]

Just to say something about Paul. Romans 8 and 9 once convinced me that Paul was close to the Essenes...who had a doctrine of double-predestination to make Calvin jealous. But Paul, what can I say, sometimes gets confused with own logic at times...If you are belaboring his points, chances are that you are missing his larger point. Rabbis get muddled and long-winded sometimes. (And I've never met one that didn't love two or three sentence Rabbit trails...I call them the "Rabbity Rabbis".:D )

For example, Romans 8 simply says:

As Psalm 44 makes abundantly clear, bad things (like suffering and martyrdom) happen to HaShem's faithful servants for what may seem no good reason at all, but ultimately it's for our own good and greater glory, for Israel's good and greater glory, and for HaShem's greater good and glory. To be "predestined" or "called out" to become "made in the image of His son"...that's simply talking about experiencing things like suffering and martyrdom that will "make us in His Image". The world may hold us "condemned" but in truth we are "being freed" and "being justified" and "being glorified" in the Image of HaShem. Actually, Paul is SUBVERTING the doctrine of the Essenes which held that only a few with rare insight and fortitude could have the privilige of being "elect"...Paul's point is that literally nothing can happen to keep us from being justified.

Psalm 44 in Jewish tradition (Lamentations Rabba) was considered a tribute to the seven sons who were martyred during the Maccabbean revolt, all faithful servants of HaShem. They died for the good of the nation because their innocent spilled blood called out from the ground and incited HaShem to "atone for the land" and redeem the Nation (sound familiar?) from the hands of its enemies. Note that before he quotes Psalm 44 (Romans 8:36), Paul lists a seven-fold distress that may happen to us--he is paying a tribute to the seven faithful sons. He is saying to his audience: Be courageous and mighty like the seven martyrs!

[theseed]

Koilias, I agree with some of what you are saying. I know that God blesses the just and the unjust, and that it rains on them both. I will go back and study what you said about Romans 9.

But at the same time, after 3 months of contemplation on the matter. I believe that we don't come to God unless we are convicted by Ruakh. He sheds light on the truth of Christ. This has come from my in depth studies of the Gospel of John. I believe men love darkness rather light and don't come into the light, because thier deeds are evil. No person has "seen" God at anytime, but the God the Father (hebrew?) has explained him. In John, the world is dark and blind and does not understand the ligth, and so they have not understood (seen) HaMoshiak, except when God has explained (revealed) Him. (John 1.5,18; 3.28-21). Yeshua is the ligth of men.

I don't beleive that this contradicts the free agency of man, I believe that the conviction of Ruak creates the desire for us to seek HaShem and HaMoshiak (I believe HaShem is HaMoshiak, but that's another thread ;) ) So, HaShem draws people to HaMoshiak, and all those that come to HaMoshiak will not be turned away. So it does not violate "free agency".

I believe in HaShem's providence and that ordains everything that happens, He is Soveriegn.

Another way to look at this is that HaShem inspires people to seek Him, the same way he inspired the writers of the Bible. It matched thier personality and thier situation. But they wrote has they were moved by Ruak (2 Timothy 3.16; 1 Peter 3.20+).

After reflecting on this, I realize the power of the breath of God and how it has worked from creation to now.

I agree, I should not get mired in Romans 9. I don't want to be one of those people who make a hobby out of God's election and how he saves people. There is much more truth to HaShem than that.

[koilias]

Sounds good to me, although I'm not one to think we're passive. I can't claim I know much about that mystery, so may the Holy One, Blessed is He, continue to bless your studies.

Personally...I would say that we all are aware of the light (the yetzar tov) and still choose to draw to it. Everyone has the "light" in him/her...Does the Ruakh work to draw us better to it? Sure, but one can always choose to ignore the Ruakh...it's not only a "personal calling" but a wholistic one more than anything. It involves HaShem's work in the world, throughout all history and involves the work of HaShem's faithful (the Ruakh drove Paul to Macedonia, etc).

"Being born from above" I think technically refers to the realization of Torah (God's Word) in our hearts. It's about a gift of "spiritual sight", which I do believe is something we receive passively, but only when we actively seek out knowlegde of HaShem and His Torah. It's not a process we can pinpoint or say it "happened then" or "there" or "at that moment"...it has always been there and suddenly one day the Righteous are aware of it, receiving our "spiritual eyes".

What makes me say this? Well this is just a theory: Signs in the discussion betray the fact that Yeshua and Nicodemus are discussing the esoteric doctrine of Ma'aseh B'resheet. In Jewish tradition the light of the first day of creation was hidden away from the world and kept for the righteous in the World to Come. Yeshua, in John's gospel, equates himself with the light of the first day of creation...As long as he is in the world, it is "the first day of creation" (which overrides even the Shabbat! For HaShem is working on the first day of creation and so is His Word, His Son). Those who seek righteousness will thus recognize him and "be born from above". John's gospel is a very mystical gospel, and my advice is to not base any "doctrine" on it...It's kind of like forcing an elephant into a volkswagen--to systematize it is to misunderstand it inevitably.

[theseed]

In my POV, I see the "born from above" as something that makes us no longer of this world, no longer blind. They are born of Ruak. The first time they are born it is of adam, the flesh, or water. As in when a woman's water breaks. But the 2nd time, when they are born again, it is of Ruak.

The question that I see in Romans 3?, and Psalm 14 and 53 is that does anybody seek HaShem without His help? Does anybody do good without Him? We read that nobody does good and seeks God. Calvinist would say this is becasue all people are totally depraved, and dead spiritually. And God must regenerate them before they seek Him. And since they are dead they can't seek Him on thier own.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they hid from HaShem and did not seek him. Why? The answer, I believe lyes in John 3. No man comes into the light for fear that his deeds be exposed.

I agree, this is a mystery. Paul says so in Romans 9. And all he wishes that he could go to hell that his Jewish brothers might believe. I must admit, I'm too sinful to say that about anyone. If I was forced with the choice I would probably say no. Thank God I'm not tempted beyond what I can handle :)

We see God's election and his "chosings" as his modus operandi; this in crime, that is how a criminal operates (mode of operation). God chose Noah, and out of grace. Noah found grace in the eyes of God. Hence, he was no better than those that God destroyed. God chose certain people to play a role in His Convenant, and even a certain race--The decendants of Israel. All of this points to Yeshua, the Seed of Isreal. Through this I see Yeshua and HaShem recieving all of the glory.

I agree that John's Gospel is mystical. But you must realize that each Gospel represents one of the 4 temperments (personalities) that we find in people. And his temperment is the same as mine. I've been studying his Gospel from a literary criticism. I've been reading this 400 page commentary, and I'm not close to getting it done, as I get busy sometimes. But I plan to study all of his the John writings. And this will take years.

Side note: My former NT professors beleives that John's Gospel is not written in linear order like the others, but says that he sees time has eliptical, the way that other easterners do. And he has an outline to show how he John jumps back and forth.

Do you no anything about the eastern concept of eleptical as opposed to linear time?

[koilias]

Yes...I see John's gospel as eliptical in nature. I friend of mine is Israel is working on a thesis showing how the gospel is patterned for liturgical reasons for Passover festivities. It was quarto-decimenean in its outlook. Good parts of the gospel are sheer mysticism. There are missing parts indicating that there were mystical responses (probably from the Song of Songs) which could not be written down...so for example, chapter 12 is very fragmentary. Ch. 12-20 is patterned around the week leading up to Passover. Overall, I believe the gospel is patterned around the creation week, just like the repetative weeks in Revelation. John sees everything in the Bible through the lens of the Genesis Creation Week...Sheer Ma'aseh B'resheet mysticism.

[theseed]

Sheer Ma'aseh B'resheet mysticism.

Could you give me a link about this or a brief synopsis?

It was quarto-decimenean in its outlook

What does this mean?

I know the Prologue in John 1 is thought to be part of an old hymn.

[koilias]

Ma'ase B'resheet is literally "The Works of Creation". The Creation Week of Genesis 1 is a springing point for the esoteric study of scripture. So is the topic of Ma'ase Merkavah, "The Works of the Chariot" the chariot visions of Ezekiel. Because these topics were forbidden to discuss publicly and written down in any fashion, it is very hard to reconstruct John's first century mysticism. But my friend and I are making a noble attempt. The unfortunate problem for scholars however is that the only texts exhibiting an open discussion on these topics are very late. And the late form of Jewish mysticism, the Kabbala, is only a decendant of early Jewish mysticism, and it is much changed and advanced from what seems to be John's philosophy.

Ma'ase B'resheet theology however can be reconstructed to some extent by carefully studying the patterns exhibited in the Johannine books and other early apocalypses and hymns, which exhibit the pattern structure of the Genesis Creation Week as their main literary structure. All the "weeks" in Revelation for example are patterned after the creation week. So is John's gospel. By studying the common themes and biblical motifs and pulling together various sources from Rabbinic literature we can begin to make guesses about what early Jewish esoteric study taught.

The "quarto-decimenean heresy" (which means "fourteenth" for the 14th of Nisan) was a doctrine held by some of the churches in Asia Minor (the Ephesian church were John's gospel was probably first written down was one of these) that still followed the Jewish lunar calendar for the observation of Holy Week.

[theseed]

Koilias, That is very interesting. I have noticed that Revelation seems to work backwards, based on Genesis, the first 10 chapters. The Councel of Nicea as I understand it, almost reject Revelation. The the pattarns that you have pointed out though, convince me even more that they had the same writer

[koilias]

Koilias, That is very interesting. I have noticed that Revelation seems to work backwards, based on Genesis, the first 10 chapters. The Councel of Nicea as I understand it, almost reject Revelation. The the pattarns that you have pointed out though, convince me even more that they had the same writer"Working backwards" as you put it, is exactly what Revelation does. The world is "uncreated" and then a new world is created. I never noticed that it was working backwards from the first 10 chapters...sounds very interesting, care to give a brief synopsis?

I see the "working backwards" in the ordering of the weeks themselves, playing with the Creation Week chronology. The "Weeks" in Revelation are patterned thus (in relation to the Creation Week):

1-2-3 4-5-6 7 The seven churches--follow the Creation Week exactly.

1-2-3 6-5-4 7 The seven seals--the second group is reversed.

3-2-1 4-5-6 7 The seven trumpets--the first group is reversed.

4-5-6 1-2-3 7 The seven characters (ch. 12-15)--the groups themselves are switched.

1-2-3 4-5-6 7 The seven bowls of wrath--the Creation Week order is restored (but the heavens are not judged--only the earth and sea are judged, following the command given in Rev. 12:12 to spare the heavens).

6-5-4 3-2-1 The judgment of Babylon (ch. 17 & 18)--the Creation days are completely reversed.

and 7 The new bride is presented, the millenial reign and final judgment (ch. 19 & 20). Old earth and old heavens disappear.

New Creation (ch. 21 & 22).

[theseed]

1-2-3 4-5-6 7 The seven bowls of wrath--the Creation Week order is restored (but the heavens are not judged--only the earth and sea are judged, following the command given in Rev. 12:12 to spare the heavens).

This corrosponds to the flooding and the days of Noah, where the wickedness was exceedingly great. And some say the rapture corrosponds to Enoch. I've not studied it in depth my self. But I hope to go back and read and compare it to creation week.

[koilias]

This corrosponds to the flooding and the days of Noah, where the wickedness was exceedingly great. And some say the rapture corrosponds to Enoch. I've not studied it in depth my self. But I hope to go back and read and compare it to creation week.
Very interesting.

This makes me think that the tribulation need not come. If we repent, HaShem will repent and remember His covenant with the earth. Hmm...but lest I continue to utter heresy amidst the trib crowd, I better shut up. :D

[INOrder]

Hi Koilias,

you mentioned that the book of john goes according to passover festivities.
Which would in fact make his book more of a Haggadah.

I disagree and I propose that his book was built to the Festival cycle of Torah reading.
There is an ancient cTorah reading cycle that was held in Jerusalem and is held today within some sefardic communities and some conservative communities.
When the yearly cycle of babylonia now held by the Ashkenazim and three year cylce interfere with the festival reading, the other reading cycles must give way for the festival reading cycle.
I believe that his book is presented in this manner, not just for pesach.
maybe we can discuss this more in legnth if you disagree.

bye :-)

[koilias]

Hi Koilias,

you mentioned that the book of john goes according to passover festivities.
Which would in fact make his book more of a Haggadah.

I disagree and I propose that his book was built to the Festival cycle of Torah reading.
There is an ancient cTorah reading cycle that was held in Jerusalem and is held today within some sefardic communities and some conservative communities.
When the yearly cycle of babylonia now held by the Ashkenazim and three year cylce interfere with the festival reading, the other reading cycles must give way for the festival reading cycle.
I believe that his book is presented in this manner, not just for pesach.
maybe we can discuss this more in legnth if you disagree.

bye :-)Sounds quite interesting, please elaborate!

I don't know much about that festival reading cycle, what parts does it usually contain?...How would that explain the elements of Sod in the gospel in relation to this practice?

The only thing that makes me question this is the fact that Passover is a central theme of Yohannan's book, at least for chapters 12-20, which are part of the lectionary cycle leading up to the Passover, according to my friend's theory....Although Hanukkah and Sukkot are mentioned once in the earlier section of the gospel.

[koilias]

Oh yeah, one thing that attaches Yohannan's gospel to the Passover, according to several scholars, is the elements in it that relate to the Song of Songs. Which pointedly attach it more directly with Passover lectionary practices. But you probably know much more about this than me.

[theseed]

I agree, if all came to HaShem through HaMoshiak, there would be not need for a trib, but I don't believe this will happen. I believe that it is a matter of prophecy yet to be fullfilled. You may also not that some of Revelation alludes to Daniel.

Personally, I want to be there when those 2 Jews ressurect after 3 1/2 days of of celebration, during the middle of the tribulation.

I'm not a pure dispansationalist, but I find it intriging how many major events in Israel's history have happened on HaShem's holidays.