Christian-Jewish Dialogue?

[Ebion]

The United Church of Canada issued a statement in May 1998 entitled "Bearing Faithful Witness: United Church-Jewish Relations Today." This position paper calls upon Christians to:


Stop trying to convert Jews to Christianity; Reject Biblical interpretations which negatively stereotype Jews, as this leads to anti-Semitism; Reject the idea that Christianity is superior to, or a replacement for, Judaism; recognize that anti-Semitism is an element of historic Christianity, but not an inherent part of it - therefore one can remove it from Christianity and still remain faithful to Christianity.
Do you, as a Christian or Messianic Jew, agree or disagree with this call? If you disagree, please explain why.

[Hix]

In a way I agree with it, this should definetly cut down on antisemitism which has caused horrible attrocities to be commited to Jews by the church over the years. I would also like to hope that this is underlying a realisation that nowere does the Bible say that the Jews will burn in hell or have their promises of Olam HaBa taken back becuase of not accepting Yeshua. Saying that recognising antisemitism as part of historical Christianity is quite a leap forward as well. This is actually something of a trend among church denominations as rather recently many such as the methodists, catholics, some presbiterians, United Universalists etc have come out with the same thing.

Otherwise thats a very positive statement, obviously off the back of Augusts big "behold your G-d" rally by J4J in Toronto. Jews dont need to convert to christianity, they are eternally bound to HaShem and experience a special relationship with him, he is their G-d and they are his people, christians over the years have been involved in horrible antisemitism to the point of putting off Jews from accepting Yeshua as Moshiach, Baruch HaShem that now finally some christians are waking up to this reality :)

[simchat_torah]

I think it is a good thing.

[yod]

Stop trying to convert Jews to Christianity....

I think that is a great idea! Christianity doesn't save anyone

We should rather be trying to convert sinners to the Living God.

[BenTsion]

If such initiative stays on what is stated above, then it is a good thing. But if it also
means less Jews will hear about Mashiach, then it is trying to correct a serious error
by making another one. Christianity are not the only ones who need to correct their
standing towards Judaism. (Non-Messianic) Judaism has to admit it is strongly biased
against Yeshua (Maimonedes comes to my mind as a good example), when it is not
His fault that this religious feud exists.

In Him,
Ben Tsion

[Charlesinflorida]

I think That Jews will be more open to the REAL Messiah (Not Jesus that was contrived by the Constantine Church) when they see that those who believe in Yeshua are not just Christians wearing a Kippah, but are in everyway Torah observant Believers who walk in faith and in relationship with Adonai. Two things stand in the way of the truth; 1. the traditions of the Apostate Church, and 2. the traditons of Rabbinical Judaism. Both have served to build a wall that separates Jew and Gentile believers from taking part in the community of faith that first existed prior to the Romanization of the believers and the diapora of Israel.

There is only one God. And there is only one "people of God"! Not Two.

Charles in Florida

[Ebion]

If such initiative stays on what is stated above, then it is a good thing. But if it also means less Jews will hear about Mashiach, then it is trying to correct a serious error by making another one.How is it an error when Jews should not have to convert to Christianity nor believe that Jesus is the Mashiach in order to have a relationship with God as Hix explained above?

Christianity are not the only ones who need to correct their
standing towards Judaism. (Non-Messianic) Judaism has to admit it is strongly biased against Yeshua (Maimonedes comes to my mind as a good example), when it is not His fault that this religious feud exists.Has non-Messianic Judaism's view of Jesus contributed to anti-Christian discrimination, pogroms or Holocausts?

The Jewish bias against Jesus is understandable in light of the fact that Christians have tried to coerce Jews into believing he was their Mashiach when they have valid reasons for believing that he wasn't...

[BenTsion]

How is it an error when Jews should not have to convert to Christianity nor believe that Jesus is the Mashiach in order to have a relationship with God as Hix explained above?


Hix didn't 'explain', he simply gave his opinion, which is not shared by the
majority of Messianic Jews. Mashiach said no-one could have a relationship
with HaShem if not through Him. I believe the Brit Hadasha to be G-d's Word,
so I believe in such statement (which is one of the dozens of verses within
the Brit Hadasha that deal specifically with that issue). It is not anti-semitism
to say that a Jew needs to follow a Jewish Mashiach to be saved.


Has non-Messianic Judaism's view contributed to anti-Christian discrimination, pogroms or Holocausts?


I am well aware of the fruits of anti-semitism. I had relatives who died in
the Holocaust. However, I also know of Jews who had to leave Israel because
they were simply cut off from society and some even persecuted due to their
faith in Mashiach. Also, did you forget what happened to many of Mashiach's
first followers? hristianity does have more things to apologize for and to
change, but Judaism does have its share of responsability.

The answer to anti-semitism is NOT to be anti-Mashiach.

Ben Tsion

[Hix]

Hix didn't 'explain', he simply gave his opinion, which is not shared by the
majority of Messianic Jews. Mashiach said no-one could have a relationship
with HaShem if not through Him. I believe the Brit Hadasha to be G-d's Word,
so I believe in such statement (which is one of the dozens of verses within
the Brit Hadasha that deal specifically with that issue). It is not anti-semitism
to say that a Jew needs to follow a Jewish Mashiach to be saved.


So your saying that Jews go to hell? Maimonidees and Rashi are both there too? They followed the Law as G-d through Moshe commanded them to do but now they are sinners becuase they didnt except their own Moshiach? I dont think they can be acountable, after all Yeshua has not fulfiled the half of the messianic prophesis YET. Whether or not they accept the Messiah doesnt change HaShems promises, or for that matter his endless love and mercy towards his chosen people. Tehillim says the righteous shall be saved, The Jews enjoy their own special unique relationship with HaShem gained through the mitzvot, and I know some day they when Yeshua returns and DOES fulfill the important prophesis, that they will accept that he was the one that was promised.

Showing similarity between something like the holocaust and a few MJs being rejected amongst the Jewish community is a little extravagent. Christianity has a brutal past of torture and death threats if conversion was not accepted, such as the crusades and the inquisition. Ive visited an old town called Gamlah overlooking the sea of galilee and it was there 10,000 Jewish women and children lept to their own deaths rather than be converted to christianity. This sort of anti-semitism thankfully does not exist in this age but there is an underlying resentment for Jews within much of christianty, mostly becuase they are G-ds chosen.
I dont believe your statement is antisemitism but its this idea that can eventually lead to antisemitism. And now many christian denominations are openly comming out and admitting that the Jews are saved through their eternal covenant, and enjoy an everlasting relationship through HaShem....many messianics such as myself accept this too, I think its time the entirity of Messianic JUDIASM did.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Ebion]

I agree with everything you said.

I have to say that you are the most open-minded and liberal Messianic Jew I have ever I met online, which makes me happy to know that there are probably more of you out there.

By the way, you never replied to my last post in my first thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t81211)...

[simchat_torah]

Hix didn't 'explain', he simply gave his opinion, which is not shared by the
majority of Messianic Jews.

Messianic Judaism is as diverse as the colors of the rainbow.

[Ebion]

Also, did you forget what happened to many of Mashiach's
first followers? Christianity does have more things to apologize for and to
change, but Judaism does have its share of responsability.Actually, wasn't it Saul of Tarsus who persecuted to death many of the first followers of Jesus?

Although I would never defend persecution, how do you expect Jewish and Roman authorities to react to people who are possibly causing civil unrest by preaching to the masses what these authorities judged to be blasphemies, threats of damnation and the divine overthrow of all governments?

There is nothing that "the Jews" (depicted in the New Testament) allegedly did to Jesus and/or his followers that makes their descendants responsible for the anti-semitism they suffered throughout the following centuries...

[BenTsion]

There is nothing that "the Jews" (depicted in the New Testament) allegedly did to Jesus and/or his followers that makes their descendants responsible for the anti-semitism they suffered throughout the following centuries...

Who said anything about making their descendants responsible for suffering
anti-semitism? All I am saying is that prejudice and intolerance of any kind is
found everywhere, INCLUDING ISRAEL. My point is: there are two sides of the
coin. I refuse the idea that Jews are the good guys and Christians are the bad guys.

As I said before, I know Christians have the greater share of blame on this.
But several groups of non-messianic Jews also persecute/cut off those who
profess their faith in Mashiach, which is as detestable as anti-semitism.
Try to live in Israel and say you're a believer in Yeshua and you'll see what I'm
talking about.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[BenTsion]

[/font]

Messianic Judaism is as diverse as the colors of the rainbow.

True, but I have yet to see one significantly large group which holds that one
doesn't need Mashiach to be saved. Otherwise, what's the point of being
Messianic in the first place?

[Hix]

Whats the point? Well if Messianic Judaism is a form of Judaism that accepts that Yeshua was and is the promised messiah, then why do we need to look at things from a christian point of view? If we are Jewish then we should accept that the Tanach which in my opinion cannot be over-writen by any words of ANYONE clearly states that The Jews are in an eternal covenant with HaShem at Mount Sinai for them and their descendants. It was just like Yeshua said, he came to heal the sick, not those who are well. HaShem promised the world to come to the Jews if they held to their covenant, by that definition and any other they are SAVED becuase HaShem CHOSE to save them.
So the point of being a messianic Jew who accepts that fellow non-messianic Jews will be saved is that we accept that the Jewish messiah came. The Jewish thought is that when the Messiah does come he will fulfill the prophesis and encourage more Torah observance, and that is exactly what Yeshua did.

Eternal Life for the Jewish people is found in the pages of the Torah. I think only fundie christians dont accept this now, becuase certainly many other christian denoms are admitting it. Which in turn will help to keep down the Anti-semitism that is more horrifying than you could ever imagine BenTsion.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[BenTsion]

Hix,
If the Jewish people don't need Yeshua, then one must come to the following conclusions:

1 - Yeshua's death was pointless. All one needed to do in order to be saved would be
to observe the Torah or the Noahide laws;
2 - Either Yeshua lied or the Gospel writers put words in His mouth and came to their own human conclusion in the passages where it clearly states that acceptance of Mashiach is necessary for salvation;
3 - Messianic Jews are wasting their time since faith in Mashiach does more harm than good. Since it does not save neither does it improve our relationship with the rest of the Jewish community;
4 - The Brit Hadasha cannot be an inspired book, because it points at Yeshua for salvation and claims those who rejected him have been cut off from the olive tree of G-d;

Most Messianic Jews would not accept any of the four items above. Your idea that many Christian denominations accept the 'two house theology' is incorrect. Only a handful of denominations accept that, though this is just a sidenote (doesn't really add much to this discussion).

I find it rather illogical that not presenting a Jewish Messiah to Jewish people can help
to keep anti-semitism down. It makes absolutely no sense. Remember: faith in Mashiach is one thing, Christianity is another.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Ebion]

As I said before, I know Christians have the greater share of blame on this. But several groups of non-messianic Jews also persecute/cut off those who profess their faith in Mashiach, which is as detestable as anti-semitism. Try to live in Israel and say you're a believer in Yeshua and you'll see what I'm talking about.Although families, friends and employers cutting off someone because he or she has converted to Messianic Judaism is sad and possibly a civil rights violation, it cannot be compared to the segregation and violence commited by Christians against Jews throughout ancient and modern history.

I think that the reason why Jews are so intolerant of Messianic Judaism has more to do with many Messianic Jews' overzealous and insensitive attempts at converting Jews coupled with painful memories of Christian attempts at converting Jews by force througout history rather than the standard Jewish view that belief in Jesus as the Mashiach is a blasphemous heresy.

In other words, Christian-driven anti-semitism led to Jewish-driven "anti-messianicism."

By the way, there is a difference betwen presenting your faith ('Since you've asked, I believe Jesus is the Mashiach') and trying to convert to your faith ('You should believe that Jesus is your Mashiach')...

[simchat_torah]

or...

5 - Our understanding of what is seemingly "clear" biblical passages are so convoluted that none of the 4 points listed above are anywhere near the truth?
6 - There is another option that was refused to be listed because it offended the author of the original 4 points?

These, arguably, are two possibilities.

shalom,
yafet.

[simchat_torah]

7 - Y'shua didn't come for the faithful or the healthy, but came for the sick and the lost.

[BenTsion]

By the way, there is a difference betwen presenting your faith ('Since you've asked, I believe Jesus is the Mashiach') and trying to convert to your faith.


No person should TRY to convert anyone... doing so is trying to do the job of the Ruach HaKodesh... But I don't see anything wrong with SHARING your faith (not
rubbing it at someone's face, but presenting it to those willing to hear the truth).
Problem is that sometimes sharing our faith with someone willing to hear about it
will cause a third person to feel offended. THAT is what often happens in Israel
and THAT my friend is intolerance, and should be fought as much as we ought to
fight anti-semitism.

[BenTsion]

or...
5 - Our understanding of what is seemingly "clear" biblical passages are so convoluted that none of the 4 points listed above are anywhere near the truth?


Very few people who hold the Brit Hadasha to be 100% inspired would
argue that faith in Yeshua is not the only way. Frankly, Simchat, it is
quite clear through several passages, I'm sure you're familiar with all of them.

[BenTsion]

7 - Y'shua didn't come for the faithful or the healthy, but came for the sick and the lost.

You're taking the verse completely out of context. It is quite likely Yeshua
was being ironic here, since the same people who questioned him about his
walk with 'sinners' (which generated the reply you cited) were later on called
hypocrites by the same Yeshua. The Brit Hadasha is clear that we all have
sinned so we are all sick and lost without Yeshua. There's no such thing as
being spiritually healthy apart from Messiah.

[Achichem]

I agree with everything you said.

I have to say that you are the most open-minded and liberal Messianic Jew I have ever I met online, which makes me happy to know that there are probably more of you out there.

By the way, you never replied to my last post in my first thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t81211)...:) I am with you and Hix on this one but I must say it been quite some time since I have been associated "liberal".It's kinda nice to hear, I must say! odd but nice.:)

[Hix]

lol must admit its been a long time since Ive been called Liberal too, but its nice to hear :)

Anyway I think il just type out this verse that is aparently Yeshua speaking ironically: Matthew 9:11 "And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your master with publicans and sinners? But when Yeshua heard that, he said unto them "they that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Does that sound ironic to you? No it doesnt, and by that interperation and the WHOLE message protrayed in the Tanach (which you conveniently seem to overlook) The Jews are saved by their ETERNAL (which G-d calls eternal no less than 30 times) covenant with HaShem.

I have met other messianic Jews when I was alot younger who accepted that Yeshua will some day fulfill the messianic prophesis in which the Jews are waiting and it is then that they will accept he is Moshiach. But whether they do or they dont that doesnt accept their fate made at Sinai. Yeshua came to heal the sick and sinners, the righteous have their place in the world to come and by HaShems standards in the Tanach are both righteous and his people. Tell me, do you truely believe that those Jews who are righteous, who love the Torah and HaShem and would die for both, and live the way HaShem asked them to, will be doomed to hell becuase HaShem forgot to mention when he said by following the Torah they will be saved that this can all fail if they dont accept their own moshiach before he fulfills all the prophesis?

It is just my opinion but I believe Yeshua came to enforce the Torah and write it on our hearts to do it, I believe he came so that gentiles too might enjoy a special relationship with HaShem just as the Jews have and always will. If there is no such thing as being spiritually healthy without messiah then I guess all the Jews throughout the ages will be joining Job, Yitzack and Yaacov to name but a few in hell is that what your saying? Why ignore what the Tanach has to say? Its just like some christians who believe it to be irrelevant, your can either say one of three things: "The Tanach is fulfilled in Yeshua and is no longer relevant for anything other than history" or "The Tanach isnt as important as the Brit Hadasha's words despite them both being from HaShem" or finally "BOTH the The Tanach and the Brit Hadasha work in harmony, when the Tanach says the Jews will be saved eternally then it is not refuted by the same HaShem in the Brit Hadasha as both are his perfect inspired word".

The Tanach clearly says on many occasions that the Jews will have their place in Olam ha bah, infact its an integeral message that if they follow the Torah they will be saved. It was by HaShems great mercy that he gave the Jewish people the Torah at Sinai, they enjoy (and I have experienced it also) a wonderous relationship with HaShem by performing the Mitzvot and connect to him. Why then are so many christians never mind Messianic JEWs comming out and saying that the Jews will not be sent to hell and are still under their eternal covenant? You know I wish all Messianic Jews would accept this and we would in truth get along so much better with our Jewish chaverim.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~