ELCA and Ordination of Homosexuals?

[KagomeShuko]

I understand that in 2005, ELCA is going to hold a vote to see if they can ordain homosexuals.

I'm not a homophobe, but I do believe homosexuality is a result of sin and is a sin, but that you still have to love the sinner. I sincerely believe homosexuals are loved by God and that God forgives them knowing of their sin.

However, I do not know all of the details that go int the ordination of homosexuals with the ELCA.

I feel as though if that passes, the ELCA needs to make sure that those people admit their way of life is sinful, but that they then preach the love, grace, and forgiveness of God and that's why they are accepted into God's kingdom - God loves them and constantly forgives.

I really think it is important that it's not just looked over as a natural and normal way of life that God instantly created. It wasn't His original plan, but God always forgives.

Any other thoughts on this?

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Protoevangel]

Ordaining homosexuals - ordinarily this shouldn't cause too much of a problem amongst those of us who understand that we are all sinful in everything we do and in everything we leave undone, so why is it causing such a stir? As it is now, people who are homosexual are allowed to be ordained, as long as they remain celibate. Does this mean that they will be "kicked out" if they stumble? I certainly hope not, we all stumble.

If they (ELCA churchwide assembly) wanted to ordain people in stable, loving poly-amorous relationships, I would be just as active in suggesting that this is not appropriate. If they wanted to ordain people who were in stable, loving pedophilic relationships, I would not be any less motivated to disapprove of the church making that move. If they were suggesting that we ordain people who identify themselves as thieves, and were determined to live their lives as thieves, and even had worked out a way to justify their behavior from a creative hermeneutic, I would still disagree.

Even ordaining people in active homosexual relationships is not truly the worst part of what appears to be happening within the ELCA. The worst part is that those who are arguing for it are not doing so from a solid Biblical stand. They are concealing the Bible's clear meaning in exchange for guesswork and obfuscated truth.

[LuxPerpetua]

Interesting thread, Bridget. I'm not ELCA so I can't answer but I am very curious to see the responses from ELCA members here. My in-laws and I were just discussing the roles and (lack thereof) of homosexuals within the church. From my own perspective, I don't think that homosexuals should be ministers in light of the high standards set forth by St. Paul and others in the NT epistles concerning who should be allowed to minister to the church (1 Timothy 3 comes to mind). I do think that repentant homosexuals should be accepted into the church body, but I agree with St. Paul in his words addressing unrepentant sinners within the church: 1 Cor 5:11-13. It is rather complicated, though, and I am still a little confused on some points of doctrine in this regard. Hope someone else will be more helpful in addressing your thread.

[KagomeShuko]

Ordaining homosexuals - ordinarily this shouldn't cause too much of a problem amongst those of us who understand that we are all sinful in everything we do and in everything we leave undone, so why is it causing such a stir? As it is now, people who are homosexual are allowed to be ordained, as long as they remain celibate. Does this mean that they will be "kicked out" if they stumble? I certainly hope not, we all stumble.

If they (ELCA churchwide assembly) wanted to ordain people in stable, loving poly-amorous relationships, I would be just as active in suggesting that this is not appropriate. If they wanted to ordain people who were in stable, loving pedophilic relationships, I would not be any less motivated to disapprove of the church making that move. If they were suggesting that we ordain people who identify themselves as thieves, and were determined to live their lives as thieves, and even had worked out a way to justify their behavior from a creative hermeneutic, I would still disagree.

Even ordaining people in active homosexual relationships is not truly the worst part of what appears to be happening within the ELCA. The worst part is that those who are arguing for it are not doing so from a solid Biblical stand. They are concealing the Bible's clear meaning in exchange for guesswork and obfuscated truth.
I pretty much agree with what you said. I am concerned with why they are wanting ordain homosexuals. I'll be the first person to welcome any homosexual into my church, but I don't know about the ordination of them. If they can truly stay celebate, than there's no harm done, but I worry about those in relationships. Is the ELCA truly going to count this as normal, as if God said "go be whatever you want, this is how you are, My plan does not matter"?

That's what does worry me, too. Why they are fighting upon this point and definitely not from a Biblical standpoint does give me some concern. I don't think I'd leave the ELCA because I like their theology of welcoming all and woman's suffrage and respect. However, I'm just really unsure about what will happen. I'm not much into the whole church politics thing, but this is just something that even sometiems confuses me - and if we're going to have homosexual leaders, they have to be ones that admit it isn't God's plan and it's a result of sin, most definitely. I won't go around bashing gay pride parades and signs, but that shouldn't enter the church, in my opinion.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

Interesting thread, Bridget. I'm not ELCA so I can't answer but I am very curious to see the responses from ELCA members here. My in-laws and I were just discussing the roles and (lack thereof) of homosexuals within the church. From my own perspective, I don't think that homosexuals should be ministers in light of the high standards set forth by St. Paul and others in the NT epistles concerning who should be allowed to minister to the church (1 Timothy 3 comes to mind). I do think that repentant homosexuals should be accepted into the church body, but I agree with St. Paul in his words addressing unrepentant sinners within the church: 1 Cor 5:11-13. It is rather complicated, though, and I am still a little confused on some points of doctrine in this regard. Hope someone else will be more helpful in addressing your thread.
I don't feel that they should be, but I do understand feeling a calling from God. However, if they feel this, it seems they also ought to realize that their homosexual behavior is a sin and confess such. I hope to get more viewpoints on this as well.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Willy]

The issue for me is the call to live within a committed relationship. I think homosexuals should have to abide by the same standard that is applied to heterosexual pastors. They should live within a committed, faithful relationship. All of which points to the need for the church to have some means of measuring same-sex faithfulness. Ordination of non-celibate gays and lesbians is accompanied by the need for the blessing of same-sex unions.

[Protoevangel]

The issue for me is the call to live within a committed relationship. I think homosexuals should have to abide by the same standard that is applied to heterosexual pastors. They should live within a committed, faithful relationship. All of which points to the need for the church to have some means of measuring same-sex faithfulness. Ordination of non-celibate gays and lesbians is accompanied by the need for the blessing of same-sex unions.Hmm, I think I’m beginning to follow your logic, Willy.


The issue for me is the call to live within a committed relationship. I think (people in incestual relationships) should have to abide by the same standard that is applied to (non-incestuous) pastors. They should live within a committed, faithful relationship. All of which points to the need for the church to have some means of measuring (incestuous) faithfulness. Ordination of (people in incestual relationships) is accompanied by the need for the blessing of (incestual) unions.


Hey, your argument works there, too! Now I can marry my grandma! :thumbsup:

[ByzantineDixie]

Hmm, I think I’m beginning to follow your logic, Willy.


The issue for me is the call to live within a committed relationship. I think (people in incestual relationships) should have to abide by the same standard that is applied to (non-incestuous) pastors. They should live within a committed, faithful relationship. All of which points to the need for the church to have some means of measuring (incestuous) faithfulness. Ordination of (people in incestual relationships) is accompanied by the need for the blessing of (incestual) unions.


Hey, your argument works there, too! Now I can marry my grandma! :thumbsup:



^_^ Dan...you amaze me. I have seen you make your case on this topic a dozen times and you always have a fresh approach. This one was exceptional!

Peace

Rose

[Willy]

He may be consistent. But he is dealing with apples and oranges. Homosexual relationships are not at all the same thing as incestuous relationships or relationships dealing with pedophilia. Very different realities. i urge you to get to know some real-live homosexuals. This may affect your analysis.

[LuxPerpetua]

He may be consistent. But he is dealing with apples and oranges. Homosexual relationships are not at all the same thing as incestuous relationships or relationships dealing with pedophilia. Very different realities. i urge you to get to know some real-live homosexuals. This may affect your analysis.

I actually have quite a few *close* friends who are gay. I love them dearly as people but I totally reject their lifestyle as immoral, just as I would reject the lifestyle of someone who was an unrepentant alcoholic or perpetual liar, etc. My point is that knowing gay people does not change one's perspective on sin but it does make it easier to love the sinner.

[ByzantineDixie]

He may be consistent. But he is dealing with apples and oranges. Homosexual relationships are not at all the same thing as incestuous relationships or relationships dealing with pedophilia. Very different realities. i urge you to get to know some real-live homosexuals. This may affect your analysis.LOL!!! When I was in college my dance partner was a homosexual (we were awesome together), after college my best male friend was a homosexual, one of my best girlfriends was a homosexual. I had so many male homosexual friends I was what was termed a "f a g hag". I lost a homosexual friend in the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse. And I lost a homosexual friend to AIDS. I have known plenty of homosexuals and have loved plenty of homosexuals but I see their sexual perversion as a violation of God's Law.

Peace

Rose

[Protoevangel]

He may be consistent. But he is dealing with apples and oranges. Homosexual relationships are not at all the same thing as incestuous relationships or relationships dealing with pedophilia. Very different realities.On the basis of what you have offered so far, how one might oppose any mutually agreed on and “positive” sexual relationship, except on the basis of personal preference? Based on your criteria, how would it be wrong of me to marry my grandmother? We have a stable, loving relationship; she is past menopause, so we don’t have to worry about having a baby. Also, since grandpa died, she completely depends upon me, and since we began our “relationship”, she is so much more full of life! If you don’t think we belong together, you are just being small-minded and hateful! You need to get to know some real-live grandma-lovers. That may change your analysis!!!

In light of modern birth-controls, why not allow incest? Is there anything in your position to normalize homosexuality that would prohibit incest – as long, of course, as the relationships are stable, monogamous, long-term relationships with commitment to fidelity and public accountability? Or, for that matter, what would be wrong with polygamy? Polygamous relationships could be stable, having a fidelity of their own, commitment and public accountability.

i urge you to get to know some real-live homosexuals. This may affect your analysis. And what exactly makes you think I don’t? What exactly makes you think that the very sin we are talking about is not one of the many that I struggle with in my own flesh? Your arrogant presumptiveness is appalling! For your information, I do have friends and family who are homosexual; some in relationships and some not. I love and accept each and every one of them. That does not mean that I falsely equate my love for them with approval of behaviors.

Luther said that sin is unfaith. It is lack of trust in God and therefore a lack of willingness to embrace God’s will for our lives. What exactly does it mean to lack trust in God? In the Genesis 3 story, the lack of faith and belief are fleshed out for us in some helpful ways. It all starts with the questioning of God’s Word. The serpent asks, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" Faith is trust in God’s Word. Did God really say? The real issue here is not homosexuality at all. It is the question of the role of scripture in the faith and life of this church and to what extent and under what circumstances scripture is still to be considered normative.

[KagomeShuko]

He may be consistent. But he is dealing with apples and oranges. Homosexual relationships are not at all the same thing as incestuous relationships or relationships dealing with pedophilia. Very different realities. i urge you to get to know some real-live homosexuals. This may affect your analysis.
I have plenty of homosexual friends, too. They also know that I am a very religious person and I openly discuss my involvement in my church with them. Yet, we get along just great even though I see homosexuality as a sin. I'll accept them as people - we're all sinners - but I won't say their behavior is not a sin. Some homosexuals try to say that and I think that is what would happen if the ELCA said it was okay to ordain homosexuals.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[SPALATIN]

The issue for me is the call to live within a committed relationship. I think homosexuals should have to abide by the same standard that is applied to heterosexual pastors. They should live within a committed, faithful relationship. All of which points to the need for the church to have some means of measuring same-sex faithfulness. Ordination of non-celibate gays and lesbians is accompanied by the need for the blessing of same-sex unions.
Since I agree with Dan on this I don't think any more needs be said.