Immortality of the soul...The deification of man

[Qoheleth]

Hello my Orthodox brothers and sisters,

I would like to ask if some would like to help me understand what these Orthodox doctrines are and where I might find their teaching in Scripture and/or the ECFs.

Peace and blessings

[Moros]

Not sure what you're asking here, but here is some reading I found on the subject:

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/nektarios/immortality.shtml
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/fraser_concept_of_man.htm
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.00.htm

[Qoheleth]

Well, Im asking what are these teachings, what is the theology behind them.

Peace

[Marjorie]

First of all, as for the "immortality of the soul," I should quote Fr. Alexander Schmemann on this:

"The Resurrection of Christ comprises, I repeat, the very heart of the Christian faith and Christian Good News. And yet, however strange it may sound, in the everyday life of Christianity and Christians in our time there is little room for this faith. It is as though obscured, and the contemporary Christian, without being cognizant of it, does not reject it, but somehow skirts about it, and does not live the faith as did the first Christians. If he attends church, he of course hears in the Christian service the ever resounding joyous confirmations: 'trampling down death by death,' 'death is swallowed up by victory,' 'life reigns,' and 'not one dead remains in the grave.' But ask him what he really thinks about death, and often (too often alas) you will hear some sort of rambling affirmation of the immortality of the soul and its life in some sort of world beyond the grave, a belief that existed even before Christianity. And that would be in the best of circumstances. In the worst, one would be met simply by perplexity and ignorance, 'You know, I have never really thought about it.'

Meanwhile it is absolutely necessary to think about it, because it is with faith or unbelief, not simply in the 'immortality of the soul,' but precisely in the Resurrection of Christ and in our 'universal resurrection' at the end of time that all of Christianity 'stands or falls,' as they say. If Christ did not rise, then the Gospel is the most horrible fraud of all. But if Christ did rise, then not only do all our pre-Christian representations and beliefs in the 'immortality of the soul' change radically, but they simply fall away. And then the entire question of death presents itself in a totally different light. And here is the crux of the matter, that the Resurrection above all assumes an attitude toward death and an concept of death that is most profoundly different from its usual religious representations; and in a certain sense this concept is the opposite of those representations.

It must be frankly stated that the classical belief in the immortality of the soul excludes faith in the resurrection, because the resurrection (and this is the root of the matter) includes in itself not only the soul, but also the body. Simply reading the Gospel leaves no doubt about it. When they saw the risen Christ, the Apostles, as the Gospel says, thought that they were seeing a ghost or a vision. The first task of the risen Christ was to allow them to sense the reality of His body. He takes food and eats in front of them. He commands the doubting Thomas to touch His body, to be convinced of the Resurrection through his fingers. And when the Apostles came to believe, it is precisely the proclamation of the Resurrection, its reality, its 'bodiliness' that becomes the chief content, power and joy of their preaching, and the main sacrament of the Church becomes the Communion of bread and wine as the Body and Blood of the risen Christ. And in this act, says the Apostle Paul, 'proclaiming the death of the Lord, they confess His Resurrection.'"

I would HIGHLY recommend reading the rest of this wonderful writing online, but I can't give links, so... if you google "Schmemann" you will get a website with his writings on it; this essay is "The Christian Concept of Death."

Also I must recommend Fr. Alexander's book O Death, Where is Thy Sting? and his most popular book For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy, which has a really wonderful essay on death towards the end.

As for the deification of man, wow, that's really not something that can be easily addressed... every Orthodox doctrine connects to every other doctrine... so if you ask about the afterlife you're really asking "who is God, who is Christ, what is his Church, what are the Holy Gifts, what is the communion of saints, etc. etc. etc.?"

The links Bruncvik gave are very good, especially the last one.

I was going to give my own links but that will have to wait, lol. There is one site which is somewhat heterodox, which you can find if you search for "Our True Final Hope" and theosis, which at the bottom has a bunch of links to "Orthodox Perspectives" on theosis.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Eusebios]

Vladimir Lossky does a good job of dicussing the historical development of theosis or diefication in his work In The Image and Likeness of God (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0913836133/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Falx-jeb-9-1%5Fbook%5F5068813%5F1/102-5423492-4468959) In terms of the Fathers, St.Atahnasius deals with the subject extensivelyin his seminal treatise On the Incarnation of the Word of God (http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.c.htm). The first mention is actually by St. Irenaeus, later by St. Gregory Nazianzus and St. Gregory of Nyssa.
Also, just wanted to say hello and welcome to TAW to Qoheleth, excellent questions, looking forward to more stimulating discussions! :)
Also, welcome to Marjorie :wave:
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Akathist]

Schmemann rocks! My Priest just gave me two of his books to read and I am blowed away. although I find them a bit deep at times.

I usually like to give a layperson's common sense answer to a question like this but I have not learned enough.

Thanks for all the links though. When I can get through my to-do list I will be coming back to this thread and reading the links.

[Marjorie]

Schmemann rocks! My Priest just gave me two of his books to read and I am blowed away. although I find them a bit deep at times.I LOVE Schmemann. I could read him for hours and hours. When I read For the Life of the World it was like... heaven. It was like a love affair. I read it in one day... I couldn't stop reading it. I devoured that book! The first book I read of his was Great Lent, though.

I find Schmemann a lot easier to read than, say, Lossky, although I also love Lossky. Of course the most difficult book I ever read was Being As Communion by John Zizioulas. I learned SO MUCH about God and the Church from that book-- but my God! That was NOT light reading. He may be the only person on the earth who uses the word "eschatology" more often than the word "cat."

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[CyberSponge]

First of all, as for the "immortality of the soul," I should quote Fr. Alexander Schmemann on this:

"The Resurrection of Christ comprises, I repeat, the very heart of the Christian faith and Christian Good News. And yet, however strange it may sound, in the everyday life of Christianity and Christians in our time there is little room for this faith. It is as though obscured, and the contemporary Christian, without being cognizant of it, does not reject it, but somehow skirts about it, and does not live the faith as did the first Christians. If he attends church, he of course hears in the Christian service the ever resounding joyous confirmations: 'trampling down death by death,' 'death is swallowed up by victory,' 'life reigns,' and 'not one dead remains in the grave.' But ask him what he really thinks about death, and often (too often alas) you will hear some sort of rambling affirmation of the immortality of the soul and its life in some sort of world beyond the grave, a belief that existed even before Christianity. And that would be in the best of circumstances. In the worst, one would be met simply by perplexity and ignorance, 'You know, I have never really thought about it.'

Meanwhile it is absolutely necessary to think about it, because it is with faith or unbelief, not simply in the 'immortality of the soul,' but precisely in the Resurrection of Christ and in our 'universal resurrection' at the end of time that all of Christianity 'stands or falls,' as they say. If Christ did not rise, then the Gospel is the most horrible fraud of all. But if Christ did rise, then not only do all our pre-Christian representations and beliefs in the 'immortality of the soul' change radically, but they simply fall away. And then the entire question of death presents itself in a totally different light. And here is the crux of the matter, that the Resurrection above all assumes an attitude toward death and an concept of death that is most profoundly different from its usual religious representations; and in a certain sense this concept is the opposite of those representations.

It must be frankly stated that the classical belief in the immortality of the soul excludes faith in the resurrection, because the resurrection (and this is the root of the matter) includes in itself not only the soul, but also the body. Simply reading the Gospel leaves no doubt about it. When they saw the risen Christ, the Apostles, as the Gospel says, thought that they were seeing a ghost or a vision. The first task of the risen Christ was to allow them to sense the reality of His body. He takes food and eats in front of them. He commands the doubting Thomas to touch His body, to be convinced of the Resurrection through his fingers. And when the Apostles came to believe, it is precisely the proclamation of the Resurrection, its reality, its 'bodiliness' that becomes the chief content, power and joy of their preaching, and the main sacrament of the Church becomes the Communion of bread and wine as the Body and Blood of the risen Christ. And in this act, says the Apostle Paul, 'proclaiming the death of the Lord, they confess His Resurrection.'"


When I read his book, that section was one that really caught my attention, too. I think it's so great b/c it touches on how when people think of "life-after-death", most think of some sort of wispy soul rather than real LIFE, which is the resurrection. I remember I used to be confused about Christianity b/c the sort of common understanding I had wasn't a whole lot different than what other religions taught (that is, about some sort of immortal soul that is freed from the body). What I never used to understand is the resurrection. It's an unfortunate dualism that most of Christianity suffers from, and that Schmemann was exposing in the quote above. :)

[CyberSponge]

Of course the most difficult book I ever read was Being As Communion by John Zizioulas. I learned SO MUCH about God and the Church from that book-- but my God! That was NOT light reading. He may be the only person on the earth who uses the word "eschatology" more often than the word "cat."


Wow, that's very impressive. I tried reading that book but only made it a few pages in before I had to give up. Right now I'm working on Of Water and the Spirit. :)

[Marjorie]

When I read his book, that section was one that really caught my attention, too. I think it's so great b/c it touches on how when people think of "life-after-death", most think of some sort of wispy soul rather than real LIFE, which is the resurrection. I remember I used to be confused about Christianity b/c the sort of common understanding I had wasn't a whole lot different than what other religions taught (that is, about some sort of immortal soul that is freed from the body). What I never used to understand is the resurrection. It's an unfortunate dualism that most of Christianity suffers from, and that Schmemann was exposing in the quote above. :)EXACTLY. One of my best friends, Stevooo, told me once that he couldn't believe in heaven because it was so remote from the physical world. I explained to him that that was Gnosticism, that true Christianity was not like that... I myself struggled with Christianity for the same reasons.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Marjorie]

Wow, that's very impressive. I tried reading that book but only made it a few pages in before I had to give up. Right now I'm working on Of Water and the Spirit. :)Well I was reading it for my Junior Essay (which had the coolest title-- "In the Beginning Was the Word: Language, Personhood and Being in Paul Auster's City of Glass") and so I had to just struggle through it. It was mind-numbing, but it was worth it, really. Right now I'm busy with school, but I'm reading some biographies, some Dostoevsky (my favorite writer), and some books on religion... but none that I'm too excited about. My mom won't let me spend money for a month which is a long, annoying story... so yeah.

In IC XC,
Marjorie