Divorce?

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Shalom everyone,

Can someone give me some insight into the Messianic/Jewish view of divorce. I know that with Christianity the generally accepted view is that one can only divorce one's spouse due to infidelity. But the area goes a little grey when issues such as the varying degrees of abuse gets asked.

A couple of months ago I'd read an article that said that the early Believers did not hold exclusively to this view and that whilst divorce was to be avoided, it was still possible under certain circumstances. This article claimed that over the centuries it has been taken out of context and reduced to just adultery. It mentioned about how the early believers included 'neglect' (i.e. included in this was abuse) as a reason for divorce, based off rabbinical teachings from Ex 21:10.

Does anyone have any more information on this?

Thank you :hug:

[Higher Truth]

1 Corinthians 7

12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, if any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she consents to live with him, let him not leave her.
13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified by the husband; else, then, your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
15 But if the unbelieving one separates, let them be separated; the brother or the sister is not in bondage in such matters; but God has called us in peace.

[Lotuspetal_uk]

1 Corinthians 7

12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, if any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she consents to live with him, let him not leave her.
13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified by the husband; else, then, your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
15 But if the unbelieving one separates, let them be separated; the brother or the sister is not in bondage in such matters; but God has called us in peace.
Shalom and thank you HT,

I am already familiar with 1 Cor 7, but I was hoping more for additional Rabbinic teachings on this.

G-d bless

[yod]

you sound like you are looking for a reason?

Divorce was given by Moses because of the hardness of our hearts. No other reason.

Even if you are married to a believer, if they want to leave what can be done? If you want to leave it's a different situation.

[Talmidah]

I don't have any sources for you to look at (maybe S_T or Henaynei would?). But my rabbi was just talking about this the other day with a girl at shul. He said that the rabbis have recognized that the ideal would of course be to stay together forever. But, if 2 people are making themselves miserable by staying together, or one has in fact 'abandoned' the other even if physically still present, then there is no reason to force them to stay together.

[simchat_torah]

I'll bring much more later, but simply put, the Torah requires a "get"... or a "bill of divorcement" for one to divorce a spouse.

[simchat_torah]

I will say that I partially agree with Talmidah. I would say it is more than an 'ideal', but even a great desire of HaShem that a man and wife stay together. Yet the Torah provides provisions for situations that bring damage... spritually, emotionally, and physically. That is where a 'get' comes into play.

It is never a 'light' matter, and I always strongly encourage all to stray away from divorce. But I will say that HaShem does provide for relief in certain situations...

I'm kinda busy right now, so I'll have to address this more fully later.

shalom,
yafet.

[Talmidah]

I would say it is more than an 'ideal', but even a great desire of HaShem that a man and wife stay together. Yet the Torah provides provisions for situations that bring damage... spritually, emotionally, and physically. That is where a 'get' comes into play.

It is never a 'light' matter, and I always strongly encourage all to stray away from divorce. But I will say that HaShem does provide for relief in certain situations...

Yafet,
Thank you for taking what I mean to say and saying it much better than I.

[yod]

But, if 2 people are making themselves miserable by staying together, or one has in fact 'abandoned' the other even if physically still present, then there is no reason to force them to stay together

then at least one of those 2 people has hardened their heart.

Humility and love go together.

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Shalom, and thank you all for yoru replies.

I'm having some difficulty with my PC at the mo' this is the first time I can actually get online (Yay!). But as soon as I can work out what is wrong, I'll be back.

G-d bless

[simchat_torah]

Yafet,
Thank you for taking what I mean to say and saying it much better than I.

I know you weren't necessarily saying I offended you, but I am sorry if I did. :( I meant to add to what you said.

I have done a very extensive study on "love" and my conclusion is that love is a choice. It is not a fluffy emotion. If you ask any couple that have been married for 50 years, they will tell you there were times they didn't 'feel' like loving each other.

Love is a choice... a dedication. If one doesn't "love" their partner, that is their 'choice'... they didn't 'fall out of love'. They chose not to love their partner.

I guess what I'm saying is that the statement:
But, if 2 people are making themselves miserable by staying together... Somewhat makes me cringe.

These two people could 'choose' to love one another. Love is a choice.

Anyway, there are provisions in the Torah for divorce. However, it is a serious matter, and not a light issue.

shalom,
yafet.

[Talmidah]

I know you weren't necessarily saying I offended you, but I am sorry if I did. :( I meant to add to what you said.

Yafet,
I was not offended in the least!!!!!! I was saying that I'm really glad you are able to express things so much better than I. I was trying to type in a hurry and, rereading it, did not convey what I was thinking.

Of course divorce should never be a light issue. G-d designed marriage to be a lifelong bond between the man and woman. For that reason a mean leaves his mother and father and cleaves to his wife. If both people are committed to G-d and to His plan, they can definitely choose to love each other. But if one of these people is not, they can make the other one's life miserable. That is when such measures can be thought about. But even then, not taken lately. My friend is in this exact situation...she is married to a man who is rarely home, brings nonkosher items into the house (yes, he is Jewish), often does not give her enough money even for groceries. That is why she has been talking to the rabbi about her alternatives. This is the type of thing I was trying to convey.

[yod]

she is married to a man who is rarely home, brings nonkosher items into the house (yes, he is Jewish), often does not give her enough money even for groceries. That is why she has been talking to the rabbi about her alternatives. This is the type of thing I was trying to convey.


"rarely home" is the only problematic theme here. Why? Does he work out of town? Does he go out drinking for weeks at a time? Just "being away" is not good cause.

Non-kosher items? Gimme a break.

"enough" for groceries is a subjective term. Why is this happening? Is it neglect, stinginess, or a lack of money?


It could just as easily be covetousness on her part from that description.


Marriage is a SACRED vow! Divorce is like cutting off your arm! It's more painful than being separated by death in most cases. It is rarely the end of a relationship....Rather it becomes the beginning of a worse relationship (especially if there are kids involved)


The best solution is ALWAYS for both parties to humble themselves and seek righteousness. Even if one partner doesn't do that it isn't necessarily grounds for breaking this holy vow.

[Micaiah]

1 Corinthians 7

12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, if any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she consents to live with him, let him not leave her.
13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified by the husband; else, then, your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
15 But if the unbelieving one separates, let them be separated; the brother or the sister is not in bondage in such matters; but God has called us in peace.

You should also quote the verses above.

1 Corinthians 7

Keep Your Marriage Vows
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

Scripture teaches a wife and husband should not separate. Separation easily leads to permanent separation / adultery / and divorce.

[Higher Truth]

I agree that people should give every effort to work things out, but if an unbelieving spouse leaves permanently, Paul was clear that the believer is not in bondage:

15 But if the unbelieving one separates, let them be separated; the brother or the sister is not in bondage in such matters;

Some people try to deny what Paul is saying here, but then hold him up as an authority when it comes to women not speaking in the assembly. Either Paul was given authority, or he wasn't. They can't have it both ways.

[Micaiah]

I was pointing out that the general principal was that the Christian should not initiate separation.

Agree with your other comments. Thanks.

[Talmidah]

Yod,
No he doesn't work out of town. He goes out with friends, etc sometimes doesn't come home for 2 or 3 days, won't tell her where she was at.
Not enough for groceries, meaning ladies at shul have had to take her bags of food so that she'll have stuff to feed her kids.
As to nonkosher items (and to those with the Brit Chadashah verses), please keep in mind that she is not Christian and not Messianic. So there being nonkosher items in her kitchen is very distressing and those verses are meaningless to her.

I'm sorry that I even mentioned this. All I was trying to do was bring up points that the rabbi made in counselling her, and no, he was not encouraging a separation. He was just trying to help her understand her choices.

Edited to add: I don't mean to sound short or rude in this post. I just seem to have trouble expressing what I'm trying to say. I don't want you all to think that I take marriage lightly.

[yod]

No he doesn't work out of town. He goes out with friends, etc sometimes doesn't come home for 2 or 3 days, won't tell her where she was at.


in my opinion, that is a just cause for divorce....and I'm pretty hardline against divorce.

[simchat_torah]

I think there are major issues, and they need to see a counselor...

[Lotuspetal_uk]

you sound like you are looking for a reason?


Shalom,

No, well not completely....yet ;)

The reason for my enquiry was the apparent vagueness in terms of abuse within a marriage. From what I understood, the mainstream Christianity view was that one put up with it if it was mild but if violent, one could only separate from the violent spouse. I was surprised to read that it was not always the case from a marital website which had studied ancient Greek and Jewish divorce papyri from, I believe approx 80 AD or thereabouts. It summarised that divorce was not something taken lightly but only in certain circumstances, where the spouse was being neglected, was it permitted.

So, I was basically enquiring as to what is deemed as 'neglect' (i.e. can it be defined as a spouse continuously being abusive/neglecting to another spouse?) and whether this website was correct in its conclusions.

Before I forget I'd better post the link to the article :) :

It's under 'Divorce and Remarriage' at http://www.instone-brewer.com/ (couldn't post the exact article because the site is copy-protected).

G-d bless