Predestination-difficult...

[AudioArtist]

Having read up on predestination and calvinism, I have had my faith greatly damaged. Why? Because there seems to be a lot of scripture that backs these frightening ideas of God up.

Why do some parts of the New Testament confirm that God chose his elect from the begining of time and he chose some to be hardened against Him and on a path to destruction? Or are we merely misunderstanding these verses?

I always thought God was loving enough to allow us to choose Him or to reject Him.

[Toney]

In your other OP (spiritual manifestations) you mentioned various spirits. The spirit of confusion is not the Holy Spirit. I have found that the spirit of confusion has many keyboards. You could go to OBOB and ask about predestination and compare the response with the answers you receive to the same question elsewhere. Or, you could look up some old threads in various places.

But isn't the entire argument a trap to keep you away from solid food? The Gospel is clear on how we are to live our lives, of what we may hope for. Predestination: forgetaboutit.

[AudioArtist]

Yes. But I can't-I find it too hard to believe in a God that MIGHT send people to Hell "for his glory".

[Toney]

Yes. But I can't-I find it too hard to believe in a God that MIGHT send people to Hell "for his glory".

Yep! That God is not my father, either. Our God does not send anyone to hell. People choose hell, which is the eternal separation from God -- eternal death. Choose life.

[AudioArtist]

Can someone opposing these beliefs offer me biblical evidence of them being wrong, or at least a suitable explination that allows for free will AND predestination? You'll be helping someone who's faith is on the edge now...

[Toney]

Most dilemmas important to the human condition were covered by Star Trek. In Voyage Home (1986) the crew ventures back to our time to save the whales.

They realise that 'correct change' is required to ride a bus, so Kirk sells his glasses at a pawn shop. Spock protests: "Excuse me, were those not a birthday present from Dr McCoy?"

"And they will be again, that's the beauty of it!" Kirk replied.

Kirk sold his glasses (freewill) as he was predestined to do. God, who exists in an eternal now, sees all, and knows all, and controls all. He makes all things work together for your own good (Rm 8:28). That's the beauty of an eternal now and solves the paradox.

Romans 8:38ff

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Toney]

I finally located a good site that places Calvinism and predestination into historical context, which is the only way our modern minds can relate to such nonsense, IMO. With John Knox's help, the doctrine contributed to the term, dour Scot. Furthermore, America would not have become the country we are had not the Puritans believed in predestination, as you shall see in this well written piece.

Puritanism and Predestination (http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/puritan.htm)

I hope this helps, CS2x.

[Reader Nilus]

From an Orthodox point of view, we are dead, after the fall. Our Lord Jesus Christ, by His Great and Glorious Pascha freed us from death, and made us free. We all of humankind now can live the way we were created to live, but some of us because of our freedom will choose to be slaves to death. It is like the Israelites of old, they would rather go back to the flesh pots of Egypt than to be a free people. God does not throw anyone into hell, hell is our own making.
Jeff the Finn

[Treasure the Questions]

Having read up on predestination and calvinism, I have had my faith greatly damaged. Why? Because there seems to be a lot of scripture that backs these frightening ideas of God up.

Why do some parts of the New Testament confirm that God chose his elect from the begining of time and he chose some to be hardened against Him and on a path to destruction? Or are we merely misunderstanding these verses?

I always thought God was loving enough to allow us to choose Him or to reject Him.The thing is with the whole of the Bible, it depends how you read it. If you read Calvinistic literature that argues for predestination you will be shown how to read that into the relevant verses.

As Toney says, the word predestination does not necessarily mean God has planned everyone's lives out for them. That smacks of the three Fates from Greek mythology who sit there weaving everyone's life for them. Perhaps Calvin was influenced by this idea. Much "Christian" thinking in the past has been heavily influenced by Greek philosophy and may not represent what Jesus or the early Christians thought.

When St Paul used the word "predestined" (and of course that is only how his word has been translated) he may have simply meant that God can see into the future and knows what we will do and the choices we will make.

Hopefully between mine and Toney's explanations it will be clearer to you now. :)

Karin

[Duggie]

[Toney]Yep! That God is not my father, either. Our God does not send anyone to hell. People choose hell, which is the eternal separation from God -- eternal death. Choose life.
People don't choose hell, they choose not to believe. If I didn't believe in the God of the Bible I wouldn't believe in hell. If one rejects Christ they are destined for hell, according to ones interpretation of the scriptures. Many of my non-Christian friends don't believe in a place called hell, their not going around with this knowledge of eternal suffering and saying to themselves "I think I'll go there when I die." :)

[McCravey]

Hello C82x;

If I could add anything to this I would add that the Bible is written to you...personally. Stop worrying about everyone else. He chose you from the beginning...etc. etc.

I don't know the answer for everyone else. But knowing the Father the way I do...and His love...I have to conclude that he has something wonderful for them too.

Think about Christ....how would he handle this subject?

[Caprice]

People don't choose hell, they choose not to believe. If I didn't believe in the God of the Bible I wouldn't believe in hell. If one rejects Christ they are destined for hell, according to ones interpretation of the scriptures. Many of my non-Christian friends don't believe in a place called hell, their not going around with this knowledge of eternal suffering and saying to themselves "I think I'll go there when I die." :)
Directly choosing Hell or indirectly choosing Hell (by choosing disbelief) has the same effect and is the same thing to me.

[BBAS 64]

Having read up on predestination and calvinism, I have had my faith greatly damaged. Why? Because there seems to be a lot of scripture that backs these frightening ideas of God up.

Why do some parts of the New Testament confirm that God chose his elect from the begining of time and he chose some to be hardened against Him and on a path to destruction? Or are we merely misunderstanding these verses?

I always thought God was loving enough to allow us to choose Him or to reject Him.
Good Day, CS2X

I would say you have had you faith greatly increased, and your view of the soverign God tried. Remember the Scripture is where we receive knowledge of "who" God really is and will dispell false ideas. The words that are used in Scripture have meaning "definitions" and purpose we must study to find the meanings and draw from the meaning the purpose.

Good luck in your study of this issue. If I can be of any help do not hesitate to ask your questions in the Reformed section at CF, or PM me if you like.

Peace to u,

Bill

[tigersnare]

If I could add to what Bill has said....

We seem to base our idea of God from those around us, things we have seen and heard growing up, our parents, our freinds, a particular teacher. Basically we generally establish a view of God based on Tradition.

What we have to ask ourselves is, does the Bible have the right to rebuke us? Change our understanding, correct our misconceptions. Does it have the authority and final say in all matters?

If it does, then it has every right to challenge, shape, and change our beliefs, especially about the character and person of God.

[Imblessed]

Having read up on predestination and calvinism, I have had my faith greatly damaged. Why? Because there seems to be a lot of scripture that backs these frightening ideas of God up.

Why do some parts of the New Testament confirm that God chose his elect from the begining of time and he chose some to be hardened against Him and on a path to destruction? Or are we merely misunderstanding these verses?

I always thought God was loving enough to allow us to choose Him or to reject Him.
This is not an easy question to answer. I suggest you spend some time asking questions in the semper reformanda/reformed room. The Calvinist in there are very learned and may be able to help with this.

I am a new Calvinist, and it's still a struggle to me. I'm not sure everyone has the ability to "accept" these views of God, and I don't know that that's bad either. It seems to me that there has to be more to God than this "being" who would make us and then effectively tie His hands behind His back with this whole Free Will thing. I think God must be more complicated then we can imagine, and so I personally have to accept that there may be more to Him then I would like to know. Does that make sense? It's hard to explain.

One thing that I think about alot is people's prayers. How can we pray for people's souls if God cannot bring about their salvation? If His hands are tied and He cannot guide them into faith? I hear people pray all the time "Dear God, do something to make so and so believe" or "Dear God, open so and so's eyes to the truth" etc etc. But if our salvation is based on OUR acceptance of God and it's OUR choice whether or not we accept Jesus into our lives...then God cannot answer that prayer can He? It seems to me He does actively bring us to faith. Are those of us who are christians somehow smarter or brighter or better because we could see and understand the Gospel and accept it?

My sister in law is a wonderful person. Very dedicated to others and really wants to make a difference in other peoples lives. She has been actively searching for some sort of "truth" of life. She KNOWS there's more to life then just this, yet, she cannot see the truth of christianity. All she sees is the inconsistencies in our beliefs, the hypocrites, etc etc. She is not deliberately turning her back on God. She truly cannot see it. She cannot make that choice for Jesus. If I believed in total free will like the arminians do, I would be in dispair right now, because I know she will never choose christianity. But I believe in a God who can reach down and change her heart, open up her "eyes" and make her see. Her only hope is for God to do this, because she will never do it on her own. So I pray for her everyday, knowing that there is still hope and trusting that God will reach down someday and heal her 'blindness'. I speak to her about my faith as often as I can, and try to show her by my lifestyle, my happiness, and peace the "truth" of christianity.

I guess that's a bit off topic, but I just wanted to try and help you understand that Calvinism is not just about God sending people to hell for something they do not have a choice about. It's what people get hung up on though.
Calvinism is about trusting in God's holiness, and righteousness and trying to give God ALL the glory in everything that happens. It's about truly believing in God's omnipetance, and omnipresense---all the way, not just the parts we can grasp or want to know about, or make us feel good. I don't like the view that somehow limits God's abilities, and somehow places man's perogative over God's.

I guess that's enough of my going on....hope it helps. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. I'm pretty new to Calvinism but I'll try to help anyway I can.

By the way, I just want to state for the record that I don't have a huge problem with Arminianism, I just can't reconscile that view with what I read about God in the Bible......

[Mary_Magdalene]

no... i think Calvinism is putting all the responsibility of our sins and actions on God. "If i end up in hell- its not my fault, God put me there". my advice would be to steer very clear of teachings that lie about John 3:16....WHOEVER believes in Him will have eternal life. IMO, Calvinism is false doctrine and a slap in the face to Christ's suffering on the cross for ALL mans sins (believers).

Try this site also... www.dispensationalism.com

if you ask Christ to be the Lord of your life you will be saved. God knows whether He will see you in heaven one day-but you need to make that choice. God doesnt force His children to believe in Him or to obey Him. But His will is still done- now THAT is an all powerful God!

Also, you dont have to either be an Arminianist or Calvanist. I have beliefs on both sides of their arguements. We will never know all we want to know about God, until we meet Him. You dont have to choose one "camp" or the other. Choose what the Word of God says to you through His Holy Spirit.

[tigersnare]

no... i think Calvinism is putting all the responsibility of our sins and actions on God. "If i end up in hell- its not my fault, God put me there". my advice would be to steer very clear of teachings that lie about John 3:16....WHOEVER believes in Him will have eternal life. IMO, Calvinism is false doctrine and a slap in the face to Christ's suffering on the cross for ALL mans sins (believers).
.

:eek: :scratch: :sigh:

[oworm]

CS2x. The best and most accurate advice hasnt been given to you yet. I would think by this time your mind is ablaze with every respondees take on the Predestination/election issue.

I have the answer! So here it is:
Bearing in mind that the the Lord says "You will find me when you seek me with all your heart" and that Jesus said "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free"

Set some time aside in a quiet place with no distractions. Even if you have to climb a hill somewhere do that. Take a bible with you. Make your self comfortable and kneel,or sit and pray. Tell God exactly how you feel about these things. Take your time and ponder what is in your mind. God WILL answer your prayer if you are truly seeking to find the answer to your dilemna which it seems you are. Read through the whole letter of Romans,slowly and prayerfully. Reflect on it chapter by chapter.

Its YOU who need to find the answers to these questions and no human wisdom or interpretation is going to be able to satisfy that desire.Only God by his Spirit can do that.

[Duggie]

[Caprice]Directly choosing Hell or indirectly choosing Hell (by choosing disbelief) has the same effect and is the same thing to me.
Which is exactly my point. If your a Christian then disbelief = hell, if on the other hand if your not a Christian then disbelief could = nothing, re-incarnation etc....

[kyzar]

I am forced to agree with OWORM...

I am in the same situation as yourself!!! Recently encountered the teachings of predestination and election, and to some extent it has shaken me up a bit!!! But the only way I've been finding to think about it is: who is God? Go ahead ask Him, personally I've come to the conclusion that God would never create someone with the sole purpose of them is to go to hell, it is not in His character...

I know we're not supposed change what the bible says, but it becomes clearer to me if I sometimes look at it by swapping 'predestined' with 'foreknew'... God knew I would become a Christian and thus I am one of His elect... He didn't create me making me a Christian, He created me knowing i would become one, and I have found this a great benefit to me...

I'll say it again... PRAY! Ask God about it, man is (when it comes right down to it) stupid...

[frost]

no... i think Calvinism is putting all the responsibility of our sins and actions on God. "If i end up in hell- its not my fault, God put me there".
What you fail to recognize is that we all should end up in hell. The Bible tells us we are dead in our sins. Not injured, but dead. Dead men cannot come to Christ - they must be born again. Now, tell me did you decide to be physically born? Nor can you decide to be born again. God, in his mercy regenerates us and calls us to Himself. It is only then that we "decide" to come to him.

blessings...

[Imblessed]

no... i think Calvinism is putting all the responsibility of our sins and actions on God. "If i end up in hell- its not my fault, God put me there". my advice would be to steer very clear of teachings that lie about John 3:16....WHOEVER believes in Him will have eternal life. IMO, Calvinism is false doctrine and a slap in the face to Christ's suffering on the cross for ALL mans sins (believers).

strangely Calvinists teach the very same thing. WHOEVER believes in Him will have eternal life..... Can you explain how we DON'T teach that????

also that last sentence.. I notice you put in parenthesis (believers). I'm glad you agree that He did not die on the cross for non-believers sins....We Calvinist teach the very same thing....

[apenman]

People don't choose hell, they choose not to believe. If I didn't believe in the God of the Bible I wouldn't believe in hell. If one rejects Christ they are destined for hell, according to ones interpretation of the scriptures. Many of my non-Christian friends don't believe in a place called hell, their not going around with this knowledge of eternal suffering and saying to themselves "I think I'll go there when I die." :)
If any of your friends fulfill the law of Christ, they will be in heaven, not hell.

[apenman]

Having read up on predestination and calvinism, I have had my faith greatly damaged. Why? Because there seems to be a lot of scripture that backs these frightening ideas of God up.

Why do some parts of the New Testament confirm that God chose his elect from the begining of time and he chose some to be hardened against Him and on a path to destruction? Or are we merely misunderstanding these verses?

I always thought God was loving enough to allow us to choose Him or to reject Him.
If you understand the law of Christ, you will also understand that all God is asking from anyone is that they "care", "mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:12-13).

Now, for those people who end up in hell, it is because they made a choice not to "care". It has nothing to do with religion.

[tigersnare]

If you understand the law of Christ, you will also understand that all God is asking from anyone is that they "care", "mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:12-13).

Now, for those people who end up in hell, it is because they made a choice not to "care". It has nothing to do with religion.

I find it intresting that you failed to mention a person seeing a need for a savior; being regenerated, having faith, being repentant.

[apenman]

I find it intresting that you failed to mention a person seeing a need for a savior; being regenerated, having faith, being repentant.The sheep and the goats is Christs own description of his judgment, nothing but "mercy triumphs over judgment" found there.

Oh, and don't try to tell me that the sheep and the goats is a parable, because it isn't.

[BBAS 64]

If you understand the law of Christ, you will also understand that all God is asking from anyone is that they "care", "mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:12-13).

Now, for those people who end up in hell, it is because they made a choice not to "care". It has nothing to do with religion.
Good Day, Apenman


Where in James 2:12-13 is question asked by God? I see in this passage no forms used that would indicate a question?

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Peace to u,

Bill

[frost]

If you understand the law of Christ, you will also understand that all God is asking from anyone is that they "care", "mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:12-13).

Now, for those people who end up in hell, it is because they made a choice not to "care". It has nothing to do with religion.
I hate to tell you but your view on salvation is unbiblical. We're not saved or damned because we do/dont "care."

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. "

To care is a work.

[apenman]

Good Day, Apenman


Where in James 2:12-13 is question asked by God? I see in this passage no forms used that would indicate a question?

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Peace to u,

Bill
Question, as I used it, is just a figure of speach. The "law of freedom" is the law of Christ and "mercy triumphs over judgment" is the exact judgment seen in the sheep and the goats.

It all comes down to the "righteous shall live by faith" and anyone who lives by faith will fulfill the law of Christ. Anyone who says they have faith, and does not fulfill that law, does not have faith.

[apenman]

I hate to tell you but your view on salvation is unbiblical. We're not saved or damned because we do/dont "care."

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. "

To care is a work.My view on salvation is absolutely biblical. You don't see it because you don't understand the law of Christ, which is common among Christians these days. Problem is, a person can't possibly have a proper understanding of the Bible without understanding that law. Instead, one ends up buried in religion, as many of you are.

If you want to see the law of Christ theology, in brief, go to the liberal theology forum and check out the "law of Christ" thread on page 2. The law of Christ is not fulfilled "by works", it is fulfilled by faith, and if you understand that law, you will then understand scripture.

[julian the apostate]

want to get a real scare?

here is a question for any calvinist here

does God love the non-elect?

here is another one
were you saved by the cross or by election?

oddly enough i tend towards universalism so the idea of pre-destination helps me come to grips with that

catholics believe in predestination they just dont draw same conclusions from it that calvin did

gk chesterton in heretics has some interesting things to say about calvinite doctrine

[BBAS 64]

Question, as I used it, is just a figure of speach. The "law of freedom" is the law of Christ and "mercy triumphs over judgment" is the exact judgment seen in the sheep and the goats.

It all comes down to the "righteous shall live by faith" and anyone who lives by faith will fulfill the law of Christ. Anyone who says they have faith, and does not fulfill that law, does not have faith.
Good day, Apenman

Thank you.. hmmmm I think :scratch:

Peace to u,

Bill

[apenman]

By the way, this predestination thing is way overblown. God sees time all at once, so he sees the creation of Adam and Eve, and final judgment all at the same time. So, it is easy for him to see whos names are in the book of life, right from the creation of the world.

Notice, it states, "those whom he foreknew, he predestined". So becuase he knew who would be saved at the end, he says he predestined them, it isn't really any big deal. The foreknowledge comes first, simply because he isn't restricted by time. It's a natural really.

[BBAS 64]

By the way, this predestination thing is way overblown. God sees time all at once, so he sees the creation of Adam and Eve, and final judgment all at the same time. So, it is easy for him to see whos names are in the book of life, right from the creation of the world.

Notice, it states, "those whom he foreknew, he predestined". So becuase he knew who would be saved at the end, he says he predestined them, it isn't really any big deal. The foreknowledge comes first, simply because he isn't restricted by time. It's a natural really.
Good day Apenman

If he foreknew though the text does not say "what" he forknew, why did he have to preodain anything? Unless you beleive his forknowlege was faulty.

Peace to u,

Bill

[apenman]

Good day Apenman

If he foreknew though the text does not say "what" he forknew, why did he have to preodain anything? Unless you beleive his forknowlege was faulty.

Peace to u,

Bill
Romans 8:29 states, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." (NIV)

It is not an issue of "what" God foreknew, it is an issue of "whom". God foreknew all of the sheep because he can see final judgment. So, because he foreknew, he can say he predestined, it is a no brainer. The foreknowledge comes first, this must be understood in order to understand the text.

[tigersnare]

want to get a real scare?

Pretty weak scare IMO

here is a question for any calvinist here

does God love the non-elect?

Loaded question but I'll give it my best shot, God loves all in the since that everyone receives his common grace. Does God also hate some, yes of course.

here is another one
were you saved by the cross or by election?

Loaded question #2 and just shows your misunderstanding of our doctrines. We are elected unto salvation.

gk chesterton in heretics has some interesting things to say about calvinite doctrine

So does this bum on my street.

[tigersnare]

It is not an issue of "what" God foreknew, it is an issue of "whom". God foreknew all of the sheep because he can see final judgment. So, because he foreknew, he can say he predestined, it is a no brainer. The foreknowledge comes first, this must be understood in order to understand the text.

No, it's still an issue of what God foreknew. You are saying it, just implicitily.

[tigersnare]

My view on salvation is absolutely biblical. You don't see it because you don't understand the law of Christ, which is common among Christians these days. Problem is, a person can't possibly have a proper understanding of the Bible without understanding that law. Instead, one ends up buried in religion, as many of you are.

If you want to see the law of Christ theology, in brief, go to the liberal theology forum and check out the "law of Christ" thread on page 2. The law of Christ is not fulfilled "by works", it is fulfilled by faith, and if you understand that law, you will then understand scripture.

Did Paul teach this "Christ theology". How about some scripture references to what you are talking about?

[apenman]

Did Paul teach this "Christ theology". How about some scripture references to what you are talking about?
There's scripture in the "law of Christ" thread that I refered to.

[apenman]

No, it's still an issue of what God foreknew. You are saying it, just implicitily.
No! It's an issue of "whom" God foreknew! It says "those", not what. "For those God foreknew" is what it states, and "those" is whom, not what.

God knew the names written in the book of life, from the creation of the world, so he states he predestined them. The foreknowledge comes first. It is whom, not what.

Romans 8:29 states, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." (NIV)

[tigersnare]

No! It's an issue of "whom" God foreknew! It says "those", not what. "For those God foreknew" is what it states, and "those" is whom, not what.


Romans 8:29 states, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." (NIV)

You've said it again God knew the names written in the book of life, from the creation of the world, so he states he predestined them. The foreknowledge comes first. It is whom, not what.


What did God foreknow? You answer here, "the names written in the book of life", for those names to be there, you would say these people would have had to makes a decision for Christ. So those names could not be there had God not looked ahead to see how they respond. So God could not have predestined them if he didn't look ahead to how they would respond.

This is God ultimatly foreknowing what they would do. Everything is based on a decision the person makes, not on that person. It revolves around an action, not a person.

[apenman]

You've said it again

What did God foreknow? You answer here, "the names written in the book of life", for those names to be there, you would say these people would have had to makes a decision for Christ. So those names could not be there had God not looked ahead to see how they respond. So God could not have predestined them if he didn't look ahead to how they would respond.

This is God ultimatly foreknowing what they would do. Everything is based on a decision the person makes, not on that person. It revolves around an action, not a person.
No! The logic does not work because many of these names were before Christ died on the cross. So, the issue is "the righteous will live by faith", which leads us to the law of Christ, and the sheep and the goats. It has nothing to do with religion.

[BBAS 64]

Romans 8:29 states, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." (NIV)

It is not an issue of "what" God foreknew, it is an issue of "whom". God foreknew all of the sheep because he can see final judgment. So, because he foreknew, he can say he predestined, it is a no brainer. The foreknowledge comes first, this must be understood in order to understand the text.
Good Day, Apenman

You have mised the implication of the question, I would say he forknew all of the "whoms". Define predestined for me if you would with in the context of this whole passage. You still have to prove what he forknew about those "whoms".

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

It may be in fact a no brainer "IF" one understands the meaning of the words here.

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

No! The logic does not work because many of these names were before Christ died on the cross. So, the issue is "the righteous will live by faith", which leads us to the law of Christ, and the sheep and the goats. It has nothing to do with religion.
Good Day, Apeman

What is with the sheeps and goats, you have mentioned it like it is germain to the op?

Peace to u,

Bill

[apenman]

Good Day, Apenman

You still have to prove what he forknew about those "whoms".

The sheep and goats is Christs description of his own judgment found in Matthew 25:31-46.

He knew they were the sheep. The "whoms" are the sheep.

[apenman]

Good Day, Apeman

What is with the sheeps and goats, you have mentioned it like it is germain to the op?

Peace to u,

Bill

The sheep and goats is Christs description of his own judgment found in Matthew 25:31-46.

[cygnusx1]

Look again at "Proginosko" Foreknew , Forknown.......God is said to have foreknown certain people ..NOT what they would do , think or say.


If God is said to have Forknown you , the scriptures are refering to deep affection , LOVE !

Consider "depart from me , for I never KNEW you"
and "Adam Knew his wife and she conceived"

Hope this helps!
:wave:

[tigersnare]

No! The logic does not work because many of these names were before Christ died on the cross. So, the issue is "the righteous will live by faith", which leads us to the law of Christ, and the sheep and the goats. It has nothing to do with religion.

Good Point, however, the logic still works with faith, the object that God foreknew now become's a persons faith.
Faith: A "what" not a "whom".

[apenman]

Good Point, however, the logic still works with faith, the object that God foreknew now become's a persons faith.
Faith: A "what" not a "whom".OK, now were getting somewhere!! So, it all comes down to "the righteous shall live by faith." So, what is the test of faith?? Some say it is about "believing", so if they say "I believe", "I believe", they will be saved. But, Christ himself said, "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven", and he also said, "why call me 'Lord' and not do what I say?"

So, the issue is, what is the test of faith?? How do we know who has true faith, and who does not. And, it must be a test that can be applied to everyone, including those who lived before christ died on the cross.

So, enter the law of Christ, which is "love one another" or "love your neighbor as yourself". And, then look at the sheep and the goats which is the judgment of Christ, under that law.

James says, "speak and act as those who will be judged by the law that gives freedom. For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment."

So, the law that gives freedom is the law of Christ, and under that law, "mercy triumphs over judgment." And, the test of faith is that "the righteous who live by faith" will fulfill that law. This is the exact judgment that we see in the sheep and the goats.

So, if anyone has true faith, they will fulfill that law, and this is the test of faith, applied to every person, from beginning to end.

So, the what is faith, and the whom is those who fulfilled the law of love.

[tigersnare]

Sounds like another works based salvation to me.

Faith is the instrument of justification, not the object.

Either way, we need to take this to Sotieriology, this isn't the place for a debate about salvation.