He touched me!

[P_G]

Brothers and Sisters too!

How do you deal with the awkward handshake in a business or social setting
between a Gentleman and a Lady?

If you don't understand why the question no need to answer ;)


Blessings
PG

[ShirChadash]

I know this may not be sufficient for many people, but here's what I do... when my husband is at my side, I go ahead and shake hands with a gnetleman in a social situation in which it is the common thing, if a man puts his hand out (I do not wish to be rude, and honestly I don't care to discuss it in detail all of the time). But if my husband is not with me, I literally keep my arms/hands full of things (books, bags, the children's things etc.) and just don't go out of my way to unburden myself, and I really keep out of discussions in which men are present. If a man and his wife come into the discussion, or whatnot, I will simply nod at the gentleman. As a woman this might be easier for me to handle than for a man, I don't know.


Blessings!

[Talmidah]

I know this may not be sufficient for many people, but here's what I do... when my husband is at my side, I go ahead and shake hands with a gnetleman in a social situation in which it is the common thing, if a man puts his hand out (I do not wish to be rude, and honestly I don't care to discuss it in detail all of the time). But if my husband is not with me, I literally keep my arms/hands full of things (books, bags, the children's things etc.) and just don't go out of my way to unburden myself, and I really keep out of discussions in which men are present. If a man and his wife come into the discussion, or whatnot, I will simply nod at the gentleman. As a woman this might be easier for me to handle than for a man, I don't know.


Blessings!
That is so funny, Zem...I do the same thing!!! I sometimes carry my five year old daughter if it looks like I'm going to be in that situation and don't have anything to carry. I thought I was the only one :) Now, when I am with my husband, I usually hang back and let my husband shake hands and he will steer the situation so that I'm not put in an awkward situation. Like you, I will nod hello to the gentleman and that's that.

Nehemiah, sorry I don't really have any good advice for you. My husband never offers his hand to a lady and a couple of times has felt awkward when a lady offers her hand and he just stands there. It really must be tough for a man in those types of settings....

[TovahTikvah]

If I don't have something to occupy my hands, I smile and nod as warmly and cheerfully as possible while saying "What a pleasure to meet you!" or something similar to deflect away from the fact that I'm not shaking hands. I don't like touching strangers in general -- people don't wash their hands enough, I'd have to be like that television character who has to use a wet wipe every time he touches something!

[Multi-Elis]

Good thing you aren't in France. You'd have to get herpies on your lips or something to not feel awkward. Babies in hands don't work. I wonder how the Jews here do it.

[LibertyChic]

Brothers and Sisters too!

How do you deal with the awkward handshake in a business or social setting
between a Gentleman and a Lady?

If you don't understand why the question no need to answer ;)


Blessings
PG
But are we allowed to ask why? :confused: Is it simply a cultural thing or is there a law which prevents Jews from touching another of the opposite sex, even with a simple handshake?

Please forgive my ignorance.

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Shalom everyone,

My husband had the same problem with his religion. He'd nearly gotten into a disciplinary hearing with his work because of it. He use to remain quiet when faced with the situation and this apparently offended the women he came into contact with. I recall saying to him to politely explain that because of his religion, he's not allowed to touch another female who is not a blood relative. I also said to point out the fact that in his religion they say its a sign of respect to the lady to not shake hands with her.

This is something new for me in terms of the Jewish faith so if someone could give me the low down on this, it would be greatly appreciated as I am still learning :)

G-d bless

[ChristFollowers]

Shalom everyone,

My husband had the same problem with his religion. He'd nearly gotten into a disciplinary hearing with his work because of it. He use to remain quiet when faced with the situation and this apparently offended the women he came into contact with. I recall saying to him to politely explain that because of his religion, he's not allowed to touch another female who is not a blood relative. I also said to point out the fact that in his religion they say its a sign of respect to the lady to not shake hands with her.

This is something new for me in terms of the Jewish faith so if someone could give me the low down on this, it would be greatly appreciated as I am still learning :)

G-d bless
It's a sign of respect in the Jewish culture. Jewish people do things ALOT differently from Americans.....but it's just a sign of respect for the opposite gender.

Correct me if I am wrong. But that's what my Dad told me (he's part Jewish).

[iitb]

Here's an explanation from someone much wiser than me:
It obedient to the laws of family purity based on the Torah in Leviticus/Vayikra where a man is forbidden to touch a menstruant woman for the sake of ritual purity/defilement. This is part of that known as the Family Purity Laws and along with Kahsrut and Shabbat are the three pillars of Torah Judaism.

Only with his own wife can a man know for sure whether a woman is menstrating not - therefore observant men seperate themselves only unto their own wives. Likewise, to preserve one's privacy and dignity an observant woman don't touch any men - she therefore does not have to explain when she is or is not "clean" nor does she have to chose which men are or are not observant. An additional benefit of this traditional halakah is that it greatly limits the chances and opportunity for infidelity. It is so much harder to fall with someone you never touch. This is one of the things scripture means by the vows "keeping yourself only unto her..."

[Henaynei]

Here's an explanation from someone much wiser than me:
Boy oh Boy - I sure didn't do any proof reading on that one!! EEK!! :eek: Glad my english teacher didn't read it!!:blush: LOL

[BenTsion]

Here in Brazil, you'd be labelled the rudest of all human beings if you refused to at least shake hands with somebody. Brazilians will greet even absolute strangers with kisses on their cheeks, a tap on their shoulders, or a hug (if not ALL of them at once). And that is regardless of your spouse being present or not. Talk about a cultural shock for my American brothers and sisters. LOL!

As for Lev., I'd say there are other ways to interpret it. I mean, the way I see it, the objective was to avoid getting in touch with the blood of menstruation - and nowadays we have... ahem... other ways of doing it (sort of like I hope nobody nowadays buries their bathroom stuff on the floor - now that we can use the flush) ;-)

[LibertyChic]

Here in Brazil, you'd be labelled the rudest of all human beings if you refused to at least shake hands with somebody. Brazilians will greet even absolute strangers with kisses on their cheeks, a tap on their shoulders, or a hug (if not ALL of them at once). And that is regardless of your spouse being present or not. Talk about a cultural shock for my American brothers and sisters. LOL!I had to chuckle at this one, BenTsion. I experienced my own form of "culture shock" when I moved to Southern California. Nearly everyone down here greets each other with a kiss on the cheek, and many of our hispanic friends would be highly offended if you did not (at the very least) receive their greeting in such a manner.

At any rate, the original post has gotten me to thinking (and I appreciate the comment regarding business and shaking hands). As a business woman, I shake a LOT of hands, and really don't think too much about it. In fact, the business that I'm in (pageantry), I often have children shaking my hand (initiated by them), or sometimes, running up and giving me a hug, if they know me well enough.

Thank you for the explanation...at least I understand why now. :)

[Multi-Elis]

Do you people find this touching a business an issue? Because in the messianic congergation I used to attend, it wasn't.

I think with modern highgyne women should be considered "clean".

It's really a shame though that some of you avoid hand shakes. I love them. You can learn so much about the other person's mood, character and attitude with the hand shake.

Well you know how I dealt with ackward situations with stranger men kissing me out of politeness here in France? Just learned not to make a big deal out of it. But what I hate is that here in france, I'll get kissed out of politeness, but that doesn't guaranty being introduced!!!!:mad:

[simchat_torah]

Henny,

you could always fib a bit and say Hebrew is your first language ;)

[TovahTikvah]

I think with modern highgyne women should be considered "clean":And with modern standards-keeping bodies (such as the United States Department of Agriculture) and refrigeration and cleanliness knowledge and practices, eating pork and shellfish is almost perfectly safe and should be considered permissible.

But they are not, according to the Word of G-d.

The laws of purity and these standards that we attempt to keep come from Torah. It's not about being "clean" or unclean in regard to handwashing or spreading illnesses, it's about honoring the teachings of HaShem.

[Multi-Elis]

When Rabbies are motivated enough, they are able to prove that gelatine made from pork is kosher, because the end product is a nutural protine, I heard about it. A rabbi who was also a chemical engineer came up with this proof.

So by the same token - a menstruating woman using more modern techniques of highgyne is not really menstruating... if Rabbies are motivated enough they can prove it.

But this is so strange. In all my years living with messianic Jews I never came accross people who made this so serious.

Well I've got a solution for you women who continue to insist not touching other men - next time you are in such a situation, instead of shaking hands, or being rude, just give a friendly smile and give a good curtsey. What happened to the good old curtsies? Any way, that is what religious women at my father's work did.

[TovahTikvah]

The "proofs" of rabbis don't change the Torah.

I'm not sure why anybody would be upset because someone else chooses not to touch them, especially this time of year. Shaking hands is a good way to get a cold or flu bug, and really, as I mentioned before, most people don't wash their hands nearly enough. From what my husband tells me, he sees that most men don't seem to wash their hands after using the urinals i public restrooms. I'm supposed to want to shake hands with men?

[Henaynei]

Off hand I can think of several "types" of "uncleanness":



physically/medically

mentally/emotionally/psychologically

spiritually

ceremonially



The uncleanness that is related to the issue at hand (pun intended ;) ) has NOTHING to do with physical or medical uncleanness.



Taharat HaMishpokha (Family Purity) is all about ceremonial cleanness/purity. This is made most starkly apparent when one goes to mikvah. To be halakicly correct you MUST *already* be precisely and perfectly physically clean BEFORE you enter the waters of the mikvah. But you are not Pure or Kosher until you have successfully entered and risen from the waters of the mikvah.

It is all about Purity and Holiness (being set apart), not "cleanness." So the presence of modern sanitary circumstances has no bearing on the value or virtue of this mitzvah.

As with all the mitzvot in the T'NaKah, these are directed only to the Jewish people and those choosing to live with the Jewish people (one law for the native born and the sojourner). AND as with all the mitzvot these too are stated as "forever" instructions.

The sacrifice on the stake did not release us from the obligation of obedience but from the penalty for carrying out that obedience imperfectly. :clap:

B"H
Henaynei

[Multi-Elis]

I agree, that is discusting. That is why I wash my hands as often as I can. It's true that theoretically, if you don't want to be touched, you needn't be touched. But then sometimes I don't see why be all high strung about it. It's just a handshake, a form of friendly comunication. An anconcious communication. I had a teacher who would touch our sholders sometimes in order to transmit her appreciation of us, even if we weren't good students.


About the Torah, do you know it says that men shouldn't sit on a chair on which a menstruating woman sat on? Do you sit on only one chair for a whole week, a chair reserved just for you? Are you following the Torah for the sake of Torah, or for the sake of fitting in to certain standerds of thought? Because according to the Torah, you can curtsey one week a month, and shake hands the rest of the month.

[Henaynei]

according to the Torah, you can curtsey one week a month, and shake hands the rest of the month.No, according to Torah a mature woman is Tamai (impure) all during the flow AND for the 7 "white" days following the last day of "show." AND one is STILL impure after that until one has been to the mikvah.

I have found wisdom adn felt protected and honored by a tradition in Judaism that recognizes that it is embarassing for the woman to have to make a distinction between her pure and impure days when dealing with men.

For the men, it is necessary to assume all women are in an impure state at all times (except his wife) if they are accustomed to handling sancta such as tzitzit or the Torah scroll. The lack of understanding about Purity and handling such has been largely responsible for the efforts of various orthodox groups "rescuing" Torah scrolls from Messianic congregations where they had been defiled or were in danger of defilement due to a rejection of the very commandments on those scrolls regarding ceremonial purity.

[TovahTikvah]

Thank you, Henaynei. I too feel protected by the tradition that does not require that I retreat from contact which "outs" me as being tamai, because observant men are shomer negiah (spelling?) as a matter of longstanding tradition and would never think to make any inappropriate contact with me.

The Taharat HaMishpohka are one of the main reasons, (along with kashrus) I believe, that Jews have historically chosen to live in "enclaves" (if you will) or self-contained communities in which our contact (especially the women's contact) with non-Jews was limited. It prevented these kinds of issues from posing problems in people's everyday lives.

[ShirChadash]

From what my husband tells me, he sees that most men don't seem to wash their hands after using the urinals i public restrooms. I'm supposed to want to shake hands with men?
:eek: :sick:


!

[P_G]

Thank you so much to the dear sisters who have been chiming in on this subject!

(BTW I am a fastidious hand washer!) :holy:

Where this discussion now starts to go is this

"What accomodations am I making in the Law to suit my current situation"

Lets look at this for a moment

We all know the prohibitions on the situation of menstrating wommen
not to touch nor to touch for 7 days there after for they are unclean and you will also become ceremonialy unclean.

Now this was something I thought about when I used to take the subway train in
NY all the time. I remember seeing a wonderful elderly Chastidic gelntleman sitting reading in his siddur on the subway next to me. And I thought "What are the probabilitys that no female that would be ceremonially unclean has sat on that seat today?" My guess with the thousands of people who ride the NY City subways would be right around 0%.

But the man was elderly he needed to sit or at least it was right for him to be seated (IMHO).

So where is the line here? The Torah says what it says and I guess what I am saying is are we making wiggle room (excuses)?

What would you do? Would you stand in all places of public accomodation? Or sit?


Blessings

PG :|

[Shekinah]

I have to say that it was learning about Niddah that helped me to finally start appreciating who I was as a woman. I had grown up as a tomboy, who wished she was a boy, because they got to do more exciting things than boring housework. And menstruation was a bother, something to be gotten through as best I could, so I could get on with my life.

But when I started to practice Niddah, I began to get a sense of something lovely, something womanly, that I had never felt before. It was God touching my life significantly as I sought to obey Him in this way. It has reinforced in me a sense of womanliness that I was missing before, but which continues to this day. :blush:

I'm sure the other women on this forum who practice Niddah have experienced this also. I would encourage all women to learn more about Niddah, with the intention to practice it. God's ways are so wise.

[Shekinah]

What would you do? Would you stand in all places of public accomodation? Or sit?


Blessings

PG :|



Oh good! I feel a Halakhic discussion coming on! I learn so much from them! :clap:

Blessings.
Wanda

[Multi-Elis]

If I understand correctly, the akward situation starts when non-jews propose to shake your hand, right? Because observent men won't propose to shake your hand any way right? Now theoretically you can shake that man's hand pure or not, because it doesn't concern him right? So where is the problem? I think the problem is that you attach a significance to hand shakes that other's don't, am I correct?

By the way, in Israel it was proposed that buses travelling in certain religious neibourhoods would require women to sit in back and men to sit in front.

Do you think it's a good thing that women have very little contact with people outside their jewish comunity?

What's your oppinion on chastety belts?

How do you solve the problem of chairs sat in by menstruating woman? The car? Seats in your Messianic synagogue? Does every single one of you have two sets of toilets? Bath tubs?

What is your opinion of Messianic Jews who do not follow these rules?

[Henaynei]

Oh good! I feel a Halakhic discussion coming on! I learn so much from them! :clap:

Blessings.
Wandaok, I'll start....here we go.... I choose to use the term impure rather than unclean due to current cultural biases

halakic foundation (aka getting the big picture so we can discuss details):
1) A woman can not make a woman ceremonially impure
2) an observant woman can not make a non-jewish man impure
3) a non-observant man can make an observant woman impure
4) any man in an impure state (see Va'yikra/Leviticus) can make any observant person impure

LOL - the mikvah covers all!!
5) there is a halakic principle (perhaps S_T or someone else has the term on their tongues) where accidental contact that can not be avoided is considered as non-contact where the kavannah (heart intent and purposeful actions and lifestyle) is to avoid contact. (confused yet?)

[ShirChadash]

So where is the problem? I think the problem is that you attach a significance to hand shakes that other's don't, am I correct?

in all honesty, for me personally, I do not care to be, nor even to appear, overly familiar with any men outside of my family. I am only beginning to learn such things from the Jewish perspective and will consider the issues you bring up more as I learn the Jewish perspective. Since I am no longer a business woman, it is much easier for me, I think, to simply choose to keep a definite distance from men outside my family.


Do you think it's a good thing that women have very little contact with people outside their jewish comunity?
I am not in a Jewish community whatsoever. I came to my stand on not wanting to be familiar with men a long time ago, long before I embraced and learned anything of Messianism. I was told by a very wise christian many years ago that the old saying, "familiarity breeds contempt" pertains to many areas of life that we might not otherwise think it does. One of those was with children -- allowing children to call adults by their first name fosters and leads to a bit of disrespect in how they consider and treat those adults, sooner or later (and it was in this context that we were discussing the issue). And a couple of years after that time, I felt my Abba showed me that another area that this applies to is in being and behaving familiarly with people of the opposite sex who are not in my own family. As I said before, I am not staunch about it to the point of being rude to someone, and if my husband is with me I will more willingly shake a hand of someone I do not know. I will surely have to deal with this more again in a couple of months if my husband gets the new position he is applying for -- sooner or later we'll all have to meet the folks he's going to be working with, and it will be necessary to greet them and possibly shake hands. We'll deal with it as it comes, I suppose.

What's your oppinion on chastety belts? LOL. :confused: uhm, what does that have to do with anything?

[Multi-Elis]

3) a non-observant man can make an observant woman impure
How so?
Do you believe jews must follow halakha principals as well as the Torah?

[ShirChadash]

ok, I'll start....here we go.... I choose to use the term impure rather than unclean due to current cultural biases

halakic foundation (aka getting the big picture so we can discuss details):
1) A woman can not make a woman ceremonially impure
2) an observant woman can not make a non-jewish man impure
3) a non-observant man can make an observant woman impure
4) any man in an impure state (see Va'yikra/Leviticus) can make any observant person impure

LOL - the mikvah covers all!!
5) there is a halakic principle (perhaps S_T or someone else has the term on their tongues) where accidental contact that can not be avoided is considered as non-contact where the kavannah (heart intent and purposeful actions and lifestyle) is to avoid contact. (confused yet?)
This was helpful Henaynei. Thank you :pink: .

[Henaynei]

How so?
Do you believe jews must follow halakha principals as well as the Torah?
any man with an "issue of the flesh" - be it blood or nocturnal emmessions is impure and contact with such a one then makes you impure - this is Torah.

dear sir - "must" is a provocative term - perhaps one would be better able to answer you query if you would define: "must" in relation to what??

It is impossible to follow Torah without some sort of halakha.

{standard disclaimer: salvation is by grace through trust which engenders love which is evidenced by obedience - therefore: obedience maybe an evidence of salvation but is never the vehicle or instrument of salvation}

[Shekinah]

I am going to throw a couple of B'rit Chadasha verses in here as well.

Greet one another with a holy kiss. (Romans 16:16)

Greet one another with a kiss of love. (1 Peter 5:14)

In the Romans 16 chapter, Paul sends greetings to a whole list of people, both men AND women. And then he says, "Greet one another with a holy kiss." This seems to imply that there is permissible physical interaction between the sexes, as well as the non-permissible physical interaction already mentioned.

In all the posts I've ever seen on men and women not physically touching, I don't believe I've ever seen this verses mentioned.

So, I have a two-part question:

1. Do these verses pertain to the topic of touching a person of the opposite sex?

2. Can a person who totally avoids touching a person of the opposite sex, maintain a healthy attitude about it, and not develop a phobia about it, as I have seen some people do with pork?

Please understand that I am not judging those women who choose to refrain from touching men, I am just trying to grow in my understanding of this topic.

Blessings.
Wanda

[Henaynei]

I am going to throw a couple of B'rit Chadasha verses in here as well.

In the Romans 16 chapter, Paul sends greetings to a whole list of people, both men AND women. And then he says, "Greet one another with a holy kiss." This seems to imply that there is permissible physical interaction between the sexes, as well as the non-permissible physical interaction already mentioned.

In all the posts I've ever seen on men and women not physically touching, I don't believe I've ever seen this verses mentioned.

So, I have a two-part question:

1. Do these verses pertain to the topic of touching a person of the opposite sex?

2. Can a person who totally avoids touching a person of the opposite sex, maintain a healthy attitude about it, and not develop a phobia about it, as I have seen some people do with pork?

Please understand that I am not judging those women who choose to refrain from touching men, I am just trying to grow in my understanding of this topic.

Blessings.
Wanda
1) people who have a tendency to develop unhealthy attitudes will do it no matter what the issue may or may not be - I know LOTS of folks, messianic, jewish, vegetarian who all eschew pork but are not phobic about it!! ;) Also, I know women who just can't keep their hands off of every male who comes in the room...... who has the problem??

2) Rav Sha'ul was much more orthodox than anyone is today (all of observant Judaism was then) and that must be taken in to consideration in reading him. While he would well greet all equally in letter and by voice he would never consider that the instruction to greet each other with a kiss would be seen as instructions for men and women not married to each other to kiss each other, no matter how "holy." LOL^_^

[Shekinah]

2) Rav Sha'ul was much more orthodox than anyone is today (all of observant Judaism was then) and that must be taken in to consideration in reading him. While he would well greet all equally in letter and by voice he would never consider that the instruction to greet each other with a kiss would be seen as instructions for men and women not married to each other to kiss each other, no matter how "holy." LOL^_^

So, you think this was more of a "same sex" kiss, as opposed to "inter-gender" kissing? Women kissing women and men kissing men? Makes sense, I guess.

Blessings.
Wanda

[Henaynei]

So, you think this was more of a "same sex" kiss, as opposed to "inter-gender" kissing? Women kissing women and men kissing men? Makes sense, I guess.

Blessings.
Wanda
Yes - until the Sodom/Gomorrhea-esk perversions of society that we are all too familiar with these days - same gender greetings were often a "social" kiss - sometimes in addition to a hand shake (especially among men where shaking with the (R) hand meant you did not have your weapon drawn - shame it doesn't mean that still).

This shows how we have allowed the errosion of morals - that homosexuality was the furthest thing from people's minds, but rather they were acutely conscious of a need to ensure biblical and family sanctity and security by obeying Torah which protected both the family (from illicit sex and broken homes) and society.

Today illicit sex between a man and woman, divorce and adultry seem small pickins', and are widely accepted as "machs nicht" in our communities and entertainment, as those with clear vision of reality weary in bloodied battle trying to hold the line against homosexuality and sex with children as legalized "rights" under our constitution.

Maranantha.....

[P_G]

Now here is a big wrench in the works at least for me.

As some here know I am a Charismatic minister. Though keeping much of the law. (Certainly the Noachide laws) :)

Shabos we had a lady at the church who had cancer very bad. (Her name is Patty if you care to add your prayers for her) Now I have as an elder of the church a responsibility to pray for her and annoint her with oil. Surely Ha'Rauch was screaming at me to do so anyway.

So now does this put me in a pickle? Would you think less of a pastor or rabbi who would or would not follow the example of James 5 and much of what Y'shua did?

Again I invite your comments and I am really enjoying this thread!

Blessings :pray:

PG


By the way what is your opinion on the laying on of hands in general?

PG

[BenTsion]

Nehemiah_center,
When there seems to be a 'mitzvot conflict', the preservation of the gift of life and
doing good to others both take precedence over the laws dealing with ceremonial
uncleanness. That was what Mashiach taught us, therefore your decision was wise.

But do keep in mind that a halachic decision on which mitzvah is more
important doesn't mean that the other mitzvah has been 'nullified' or
that it is no longer to be taken into consideration.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Henaynei]

So now does this put me in a pickle? Would you think less of a pastor or rabbi who would or would not follow the example of James 5 and much of what Y'shua did?

Again I invite your comments and I am really enjoying this thread!
Ben has it exactly right!!

You have any nice lakes or ocean shores near by that are also secluded?? If so you can then fully comply with the mitzvah and do a kosher mikvah after such encounters. You will also find it very spiritually cleansing - especially after contact with unclean spirits :)

/me is wondering where Rabbi Cohen is and if he is ok - haven't heard much from him im quite a while.......http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_126.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) I bet his input would be very interesting here!

[P_G]

Ben has it exactly right!!

You have any nice lakes or ocean shores near by that are also secluded?? If so you can then fully comply with the mitzvah and do a kosher mikvah after such encounters. You will also find it very spiritually cleansing - especially after contact with unclean spirits :)

You Jump in a lake around here right now and all you will get is a concussion from hitting the ice! ;)

PG

[Henaynei]

You Jump in a lake around here right now and all you will get is a concussion from hitting the ice! ;)

PG

One of the Top Ten reasons to:"Lay hands on no man (or woman) suddenly!" http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_105.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[ShirChadash]

You Jump in a lake around here right now and all you will get is a concussion from hitting the ice! ;)

PG

:D :D :D

***THUDDD!***

[ShirChadash]

One of the Top Ten reasons to:"Lay hands on no man (or woman) suddenly!" http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_105.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)
SNORT! LOL