Arius, Arianism, and the Neo-Arianism

[MariaRegina]

Just a couple of days ago, one of my best friends got banned from another "Christian" website because they were spouting Arianism and Universal Salvation and she told them that their thinking was in error. The mods at that particular board (which shall go unnamed) had the audacity to say that she was the problem. This particular board teaches Once Saved Always Saved and that OSAS you can never go to hell even if you committ adultery. Talk about some confused people! Then they say that Christ became God at His Baptism (Epiphany) by John the Baptist - as if John the Baptist could make someone divine simply by baptizing someone?

Arius taught that there was a time when Christ was not divine. That Christ was born human but became divine. He obviously didn't read or study the Gospel of St. John:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Arius angered St. Nicholas so much that St. Nicholas slapped Arius in the face.
What did Arius say to cause a saint to do that?

[countrymousenc]

What did Arius say to cause a saint to do that? It must have been something pretty outrageous.

It's been my experience that most Christian discussion boards are full of people who want only to promote what they already believe. TAW has, for the most part, been a refreshing experience.

[MariaRegina]

I looked up the spelling of ARIUS at www.google.com just to make sure that I wasn't misspelilng his name.

Then I discovered this:

arius - Association for Regional and International Underground

So this is what we moderns are doing! No wonder people don't know who Arius was!

[Niko]

Association for Regional and International Underground

That makes it almost sound like a cult ;)

[Oblio]

Just a couple of days ago, one of my best friends got banned from another "Christian" website because they were spouting Arianism and Universal Salvation and she told them that their thinking was in error.


christianity.com ??

[Eusebios]

Is that the dreaded "btsnbn"? Seriously, that is why, in spite of some of the problems at CF, that I think it is the best "christian" message board on the net. Not that you won't find neo-arian ideas here, because you certainly will, rather that Dr.Loh has made it clear that he welcomes and expects belief and discussion that is at it's core "orthodox" as evidenced particularly by the need for all posters posting to "CO" sections to subscribe to the Nicene Creed.
Arianism certainly continues to rear it's ugly head today, and like Blessed Nicholas of Myra, we need to continually combat it, and if need be, "slap " heretics in the face.
Under His Mercy,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[pnotc]

One thing you have to realize is that many Protestants don't have a good grasp of church history and don't really understand a lot about the Trinity. Its just not something that is taught on all that often because its not an integral part of the way they view their faith. In many ways, the Protestant faith is much more pragmatic or minimalist than Orthodoxy, and since they regard extra-biblical authority as questionable, the Ecumenical Councils and the creeds are relegated to an informative but not normative role. Hence, there is little discussion about the nature of the Trinity though both the name and general idea of is is accepted. As you've seen, this lack of teaching can lead to error.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

One thing you have to realize is that many Protestants don't have a good grasp of church history and don't really understand a lot about the Trinity. Its just not something that is taught on all that often because its not an integral part of the way they view their faith. In many ways, the Protestant faith is much more pragmatic or minimalist than Orthodoxy, and since they regard extra-biblical authority as questionable, the Ecumenical Councils and the creeds are relegated to an informative but not normative role. Hence, there is little discussion about the nature of the Trinity though both the name and general idea of is is accepted. As you've seen, this lack of teaching can lead to error.
Good point, pnotc. I always had a lot of unanswered questions about the Trinity as a protestant. Why is it that Christ's ministry didn't really begin until He was baptised? Why did He need baptism? I've heard it implied that He did not yet have the Holy Spirit, so this is why His ministry hadn't begun. Is that Arianism?

[countrymousenc]

I've heard it implied that He did not yet have the Holy Spirit, so this is why His ministry hadn't begun. Is that Arianism?

I think that's called adoptionism. It's very popular with some of the TBN crowd. (Fascinating that they call it "Trinity Broadcasting Network.")

[Moros]

I was banned from a "Christian" forum a while back. They had a private forum for theological debate only, so when I went to join, the admin asks me: "What defines a Christian?" or similar.

I said "the Nicene Creed." The next day I was banned with the email: "Sorry, the Bible defines what a Christian believes. 'Orthodox' Christianity is not Christianity. Our rules say "only Christians allowed' therefore we had to ban you. Sorry."

I just about laughed my head off.

[Oblio]

I was banned from a "Christian" forum a while back. They had a private forum for theological debate only, so when I went to join, the admin asks me: "What defines a Christian?" or similar.

I said "the Nicene Creed." The next day I was banned with the email: "Sorry, the Bible defines what a Christian believes. 'Orthodox' Christianity is not Christianity. Our rules say "only Christians allowed' therefore we had to ban you. Sorry."

I just about laughed my head off.

They probably saved you a lot of frustration by banning you. Talk about absurdity and putting the cart before the horse, by their logic there were no Christians prior to the 4th century. Ironically, I am sure these are the same folks that believe in the G.C.A. (Great Constantinian Apostacy ^_^ )

[pnotc]

GDE -

"Why is it that Christ's ministry didn't really begin until He was baptised?"

I think Matt 3:15 gives us an idea of it - Jesus says it must be done to "fulfill all righteousness." For Him it clearly was not for the remission of sins, but an act of selfless obedience and a precursor to the obedience He would later show on the cross.

"I've heard it implied that He did not yet have the Holy Spirit, so this is why His ministry hadn't begun. Is that Arianism?"

Its not Arianism, and it isn't adoptionism exactly, but its similar to them. Adotionism basically holds that Christ was nothing more than a man until He was adopted by God as his son - most likely at the point of baptism. Adoptionism would hold that Jesus was indwelt by the Spirit more or in a different manner than we as believers are. There are, of course, different strains of adoptionist thinking so its not easy to pin it down.

Arianism holds that there was a time when Christ was not and that God created Him prior to creating the world, since the world was created through Jesus. It basically held that Jesus was of the substance as God, but no co-eternal with him. This is simplifying it somewhat, but you can see the difference with true Trinitarian thought.

[Reader Nilus]

Goodness a great deal of the hemming and hawing comes from the fact that most fundamentalists and evangelical types do not want to call the Blessed Ever-Virgin Mary, The Mother of God. Needless to say such thinking gets them to the point where Jesus the infant is not God, and then they do not want to say exactly when He became God, if He ever did in their thinking.
Jeff the Finn

[katherine2001]

Jeff, you are so right. One of the posters thinks that the early Church created the story of Mary's dormition. I asked him how then he could trust that the events depicted in the New Testament really happened if he thinks the early Church was "creating" stories? I pointed out that the Church wrote the New Testament.

[ExOrienteLux]

Oh, katerine, didn't you know? The Bible fell from heaven straight from God the instant St. John the Evangelist died. Of course, it was promply hidden by the evil priests and (after St. Ignatios, the heresiarch) bishops so that they could delude the humble people with belief in a Cookie God.

Where's the rolleye's smiley? And the vomiting one?

+IC XC NIKA+
Josh.

[Akathist]

Not exactly related directly to the OP, but I had someone tell me in real life the other day that they believed that Jesus was secretly married to Mary Magdalena and that they had children.

Why is it that people want to stop seeing Jesus as Divine? I agree with Kallistos Ware: "I don't want a God I can understand." I want a Divine God. The Nicean Creed says it all to me.

[MariaRegina]

christianity.com ??

How did you guess?

[prodromos]

How did you guess?
Veterans of TBBTSNBN are able to recognise it by its fruit ;). One good thing about that forum is they don't seem to delete threads, so all those threads that have been locked are still there if you know what to search for.

A couple of classic threads:
Where Were the Evangelicals? (http://forums.christianity.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=457599;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=19311891)
This classic post in Tradition, Bible, and Church Authority (http://forums.christianity.com/?post=442860;search_string=search_string;guest=19311891#442860)

Basically, just search for posts by "Monkey the Catechumen", "Linus7" (known as maximus here), "Oblio" and yours truly. There are a few OBOBers who were banned from there also but I can't remember their usernames.

[ufonium2]

Oh, katerine, didn't you know? The Bible fell from heaven straight from God the instant St. John the Evangelist died. Of course, it was promply hidden by the evil priests and (after St. Ignatios, the heresiarch) bishops so that they could delude the humble people with belief in a Cookie God.
Another reason for hiding it for all those years was because, as we all know, the Bible that fell out of the sky was the KJV, and English hadn't been invented yet. See how much confusion that would've caused? Good thing the Church forbade its members from reading the Bible, huh? :P

[Oblio]

:P @ John :)

I had just about purged those days from my mind.
I remember the 'Where were the Evangelicals thread', the one that got Monkey banned (where has he been anyway ??) because the Emporer's New Clothes had beed 'exposed' ^_^

[prodromos]

(where has he been anyway ??)
Probably growing in holiness by leaps and bounds by staying away from internet forums :P