Forum Removed: Christianity & Sexuality

[Erwin]

The forum Christianity & Sexuality, in the Society open category, has been finally removed, after opening in September of 2003.

The reasons for this are myriad - the staff have been discussing this for the past 4 weeks.

We did a "vote" and this was the outcome:

a) Close it down - 11111111
b) Formal Debate Forum - 11
c) Other: Sticky by mods - 111
d) Other: Make it CO - 111
e) Other: More heavy moderation - 1

The majority of staff felt that this forum should be closed. This included moderators involved in moderating this forum.

Although sexuality is an important part of humanity, it does not require the prominence of a whole forum dedicated to it. The threads in that forum have always been borderline in terms of good taste and at times seem out of place in a family-oriented forum like this one. Also, because it was an open forum, some of the views posted by non-Christians were in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches.

As such, the forum is now closed, and the decision is final.

Any further questions or discussion on sexuality can be posted in the following forum:

Open forums:
News & Current Events
General Apologetics
Liberal Theology

Christian-only forums:
Men's Corner
Women's Discussions
Courting Couples
Marriage Ministry
Pornography Addiction Support

We apologize for the inconvenience, and thank you for understanding.

[seebs]

My thoughts and prayers are with the GA mods in what is about to be a very difficult time. :)

[Neenie]

I'll miss that forum :(

[Matt Never Existed]

Not freaking bueno. ~sigh~ Oh well. Just another way for certain voices to be silenced I guess. Question though. Is it possible to get some quotes from previous posts that were in that area? I'd like to copy some things that were said for personal reasons. Thanks.

[JeffreyLloyd]

PM me about what you would like Matt. Do you know the thread names?

[Icystwolf]

I didn't see much use for that forum anyways, all it did was restrict other forums from discussing issues related to sexuality.

[Erwin]

Not freaking bueno. ~sigh~ Oh well. Just another way for certain voices to be silenced I guess. Question though. Is it possible to get some quotes from previous posts that were in that area? I'd like to copy some things that were said for personal reasons. Thanks.
None of the posts or threads have been delete permanently - they are in archive.

Certain threads may be moved out of archive to other forums for further discussion. PM one of the moderators to do so.

[Robert Bingham]

A little bit sudden but I accept the decision. :wave:

Is it possible for me to print out or locally save two specific threads that I started? One was about sexual immorality and another was about BDSM. I am not trying to unring the bell but those threads had some thoughtful discussion and I would like to keep private copies for future reference. :)

[P3nguin1]

It seems that forum was more about sexuality and less about Christianity, moving the discussions to Christian Only areas of the forums will be a good thing.

[msjones21]

Amen. I agree. It was all getting way out of hand. I can't imagine what an arduous task it must have been for the mods who patrolled that board. Great job. This is a good decision.

[d0c markus]

Amen, God be Praised.. I am in full support of your decisions Erwin, thanks staff!!!! :)

[StuckRags]

It's about time.... AMEN!

[Inspired]

Any further questions or discussion on sexuality can be posted in the following forum:

Open forums:
News & Current Events
General Apologetics
Liberal Theology

Christian-only forums:
Men's Corner
Women's Discussions
Courting Couples
Marriage Ministry
Pornography Addiction Support

We apologize for the inconvenience, and thank you for understanding.

I just want to ask so I make sure I understand. This means all the topics that were previously dicussed in S&C can now be discussed in the forums listed, depending on wether or not the OP wants it to be a CO discussion or not right? Basically like is was before S&C but hopefully with out the nightmare, am I understanding correctly? And if we want to continue one of the archived threads, we can get it moved to the appropriate forum, rather than starting a new thread?

[Bookman]

A wise, wise decision. Thank you.

[Gunny]

I thank our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, for the spiritual discernment of the Christian Forum Owner and dedicated staff.

[fejao]

I just want to ask so I make sure I understand. This means all the topics that were previously dicussed in S&C can now be discussed in the forums listed, depending on wether or not the OP wants it to be a CO discussion or not right? Basically like is was before S&C but hopefully with out the nightmare, am I understanding correctly? And if we want to continue one of the archived threads, we can get it moved to the appropriate forum, rather than starting a new thread?

Any further questions or discussion on sexuality can be posted in the following forum:

Open forums:
News & Current Events
General Apologetics
Liberal Theology

Christian-only forums:
Men's Corner
Women's Discussions
Courting Couples
Marriage Ministry
Pornography Addiction SupportThats how it sounds to me, however it is slights annoying and undemocratic the way the "sexuality" forum was managed IMO, the people who actually participated never really got any say on the change to stickies and the closing of the forum, this is just what I think, it seems to me the new arrangment is just another disaster waiting to happen, once the Mod's realised that they cant monitor or handle all the new sexuality threads that will pop up ! It obviously is a huge issue and should be discussed. I think some of the actions here are quite pertinent, we see on a Christian forum a thread called "Non-Christian Spirituality & Religion" where we see people talking about witchcraft, wicca, new age, satanism and paganism.... I cant see how this can be a part of a family oriented forum. Also within this forum we see non-christians posting things which are in direct violation to what the bible says, this was one of the arguments to close the sexuality forum ! Why do you not use the same ruler, for all the forums? Why is this forum not closed? Your oppinions !


Fejao x x

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

QQ, some of my best posts are in that forum.

[kdet]

I'm thankful to Erwin and the mods for coming to a decision that they felt was led by God.

[Nathan Poe]

I respect Erwin and the mods for doing what they believed was for the best, even if I don't completely agree with it.:(

[ps139]

Thank you Erwin & Mods. Great decision. :)

[Debbi]

Thank you, finally. I started a post and it got way out of hand and had almost 200 responce to it and my original question was lost along time before. There were people that kept arguing their point over and over and I didn't know how to get it to close. I hope someone don't dig it out of archives and start it back up. It was the one something about can a child mutually consent to sexual stuff with someone older if it doesn't physicaly hurt the child. But does this mean I can't later post somewhere and ask about something that happened to me when I was sexually abused as a child?

[Robert Bingham]

Without debating the closure, I would like to point out that some of the most atrocious and intolerant behavior in that forum was from people with Christian symbols by their name. It was embarrassing.

[Robert Bingham]

.

[engiin]

Action neither right nor wrong. Bible is not a tolerant book. There's fire and brimstone in it. :clap: is only for people already saved.

[Arthur Dietrich]

eh..that forum was starting to get boring. It was getting to the point where you could predict every response. Even without a forum dedicated to sexuality, I don't think much will change. Everyone will keep going in the same circles XP

[BarbB]

. I think some of the actions here are quite pertinent, we see on a Christian forum a thread called "Non-Christian Spirituality & Religion" where we see people talking about witchcraft, wicca, new age, satanism and paganism.... I cant see how this can be a part of a family oriented forum. Also within this forum we see non-christians posting things which are in direct violation to what the bible says, this was one of the arguments to close the sexuality forum ! Why do you not use the same ruler, for all the forums? Why is this forum not closed? Your oppinions !


Fejao x x

I totally agree with you here, fejao. It seems to me that the not just non-Christian, but anti-Christian philosophies have no business in CF, but that's just my opinion. I would not be sorry to see them closed.

See you on the other threads!

[StuckRags]

eh..that forum was starting to get boring. It was getting to the point where you could predict every response. Even without a forum dedicated to sexuality, I don't think much will change. Everyone will keep going in the same circles XP
This is true of all the non-Christian-only forums (e.g. General Apologetics, Evolution, etc.). However, the difference between those and the Sexuality & Christianity forum was that the ideas promoted in the S&C forum were not only non-Christian, but life-damaging to certain impressionable individuals. And I'm not talking about homosexuality.

[fejao]

I don't think much will change. Everyone will keep going in the same circles XP
Not always true ! .....


Fejao x x

[Roman Soldier]

Also, because it was an open forum, some of the views posted by non-Christians were in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches.


I don't like that reason for closing the forum at all. How long until all of the open forums are closed because some people don't like what is being said in them?

[cutekid 4 Jesus]

I don't like that reason for closing the forum at all. How long until all of the open forums are closed because some people don't like what is being said in them?
Well this is called CHRISTIAN forums so you got to see the point in that,if we wanted to discuss these things from a worldly viewpoint im sure we could go on many of the thousands of other forums on the NET,

[d0c markus]

Well this is called CHRISTIAN forums so you got to see the point in that,if we wanted to discuss these things from a worldly viewpoint im sure we could go on many of the thousands of other forums on the NET,
Amen... there arent many safe sanctuaries left... lets preserve this one.



I love you Jesus!!!
My savior
My life!!!

:prayer:

[Angeldove97]

I haven't been around the site much, but I have checked out that forum. One of the things that I really do like about this Christian site is that it has a broad range of topics to talk about as well as, that it invites people of other faiths to share in with some of the discussions. I was once a moderator at a different Christian site, so I know how hard these decisions can be, but I kno you guys and gals know what's best for this site. *^_~

[Matt Never Existed]

Well this is called CHRISTIAN forums so you got to see the point in that,if we wanted to discuss these things from a worldly viewpoint im sure we could go on many of the thousands of other forums on the NET, But what about the christians who either 1. struggle with their sexuality, 2. are looking for some form of advice in a safe enviroment from both christians AND non-christians on matters pertaining to their sexuality, and 3. people who want to GIVE their advice in the enviroment mentioned above?

With the loss of the S&C part of this forum, posts dealing with sexuality will be more spread out. That will increase the range of people who can see them, and decrease the chance of someone finding a topic that they are looking for that talks about what they need.

You talk about keeping this place a safe haven for the younger once, but then they take out the niche that was assigned to us. If kids shouldn't be looking in the area, then its up to the parents to control that. Either that, or force everyone to keep their age next to their name and delete all posts by minors. Or have an area where its ok for them to post, but keep it monitored by a MOD with very strict rules as to what can be talked about. ~shrug~

[Mac6yver]

Censorship, what a great "Fascist" idea. It does not surprise me though. Zealots have pretty set patterns in the way they react to such things. First, condemn it, then ban it all togeather.

[DJ B.K.]

Censorship, what a great "Fascist" idea. It does not surprise me though. Zealots have pretty set patterns in the way they react to such things. First, condemn it, then ban it all togeather.
Oh! Now we're facist! :rolleyes:

[Mac6yver]

Ironic, is it not?

[d0c markus]

But what about the christians who either 1. struggle with their sexuality, 2. are looking for some form of advice in a safe enviroment from both christians AND non-christians on matters pertaining to their sexuality, and 3. people who want to GIVE their advice in the enviroment mentioned above?
so you think someone struggling with sex before marriage wants to have conflicted info thrown in thier face, sex is a sin, sex is not a sin. There are plenty of fellowship threads that people can get advice from. Non christians dont know the will of God, their advice probably wouldnt be the best to seek in the first place. i dunno

the world is a liberal nightmare....

what else can be said about it... except other than complain or defend.. its closed down... what am i doing here... back to the books...

peace in christ.

[La Bonita Zorilla]

This was a very unwise decision, but not unexpected in view of the fact it is mandatory that all staff must be fundamentalists. These sort of problems will continue as long as this exclusionary policy is continued.

[Mechanical Bliss]

It was created for the wrong reason (to corral any thread that had the word "homosexual" in it into one place so that there would be no mention of it in any of the other fora).

It was further compartmentalized for the wrong reason (to restrict all homosexuality topics to eventually two threads so no new threads could be started without automatic censorship both of which were relatively unmoderated because they all became a soapbox for those preaching that it was a sin rather than staying on topic and allowing for different issues).

It was removed for the wrong reason, which ironically was the complaints of some of the very people who pushed for its existence as a corral for homosexuality threads in the first place. Now it's an attempt to silence the issues completely considering there would be no age limits on other fora like on the sexulaity forum and restrict the issue to the anti-homosexuality perspective. Some of the very people who complained about its existence spent a great deal of time in it and pushed for its closure which takes these threads back into other forums without the compartmentalization desired before. It's interesting how things have changed here and the strange and contradictory attitudes of some of those desiring such changes.

[engiin]

Never forget that the one who created this forum, did so with the intent to provide a place where his own views of the world could be expressed. When the views go outside his bounds, he has the right to pull them back in line. The rest of us should say thank you for being able to express any view at all.

[Inspired]

Since everyone else is throwing their 2 cents in, I might as well.
I remember the forums before S&C quite well, the threads on sexuality, were spread everywhere, the ones complained about the most were the threads pertaining to homosexuality. The staff solved the problem, created a forum where no one had to go to unless they wanted to see threads dealing with sexuality. Then people complained they are all in one place, and evidently someone forced them to go read them. So the staff removed the forum. Now I'm waiting for everyone to go back to complaining about the threads popping up everywhere.

I'm actually glad to be out of the corner, where we were stuck, but now my only concern is the younger members being able to post in the topics, and I fear that will lead to the banning of the topics altogether.

[AnnMercy2]

Never forget that the one who created this forum, did so with the intent to provide a place where his own views of the world could be expressed. When the views go outside his bounds, he has the right to pull them back in line. The rest of us should say thank you for being able to express any view at all.


I'm not quite sure wether or not your post is a insult or compliment or even either of those two. But I do know that Erwin created that forum for folks to be able to discuss issues about sexuality not just homosexuality. But of course it turned into a forum with nothing but homosexuality threads. Folks debating over and over on the exact same stance. Nobody was going to change their mind on the subject. Yea, some good came from it, some folks including me got to know folks just a little better and made some very good friends. Some of us learned the meaning of respect and love even though we disagree on every little point.

I for one am glad it is gone. The posts were just repeating themselves, wasn't getting anywhere. I'm also glad that we had it for the short time that we did, for the good reasons that I listed above.

That is my two cents, and now I've got to leave for work, have a blessed night all :wave:

Anna

[Rising Tree]

Does anybody remember the saga of Napster?

When it was founded, demand exploded overnight. The opportunity to download files from others' computers, regardless of their location on the planet, ventured into new waters that many people immediately fell in love with. The Napster Music Community, at one time, had more hits than any site on the Internet.

The courts, however, did not see it this way. Citing an endless score of copyright violations, they shut down Napster's central server, effectively killing Napster. But they forgot one major principle: If somebody kicks up a fire ant bed, more beds will shoot up to replace them. That was precisely what happened. Many new file sharing programs soon evolved in Napster's place. Unfortunately for the courts, these new programs had no central server and could not be shut down.

Moral of the story: Admins, you would be wise to heed Inspired's warnings.

[Shekinahs]

I agreed with that decision :wave: I always thought sexual related topics needed to be discuss in gender only forums. Men got sexual issues they need to discuss it with men. Women have sexual issues they need to discuss it with other women. I have no idea how cross gender discussion on sexuality in a Christian forum could make sense. Just my .02 ^_^ Either you are married with sexual concerns or unmarried with sexual concerns. Otherwise what... you going to give advice in a sexual forum :confused: Yep it needed to be closed and moved. ;)

[Shekinahs]

It was created for the wrong reason (to corral any thread that had the word "homosexual" in it into one place so that there would be no mention of it in any of the other fora).

It was further compartmentalized for the wrong reason (to restrict all homosexuality topics to eventually two threads so no new threads could be started without automatic censorship both of which were relatively unmoderated because they all became a soapbox for those preaching that it was a sin rather than staying on topic and allowing for different issues).

.
Well homosexuality topics need to be in gender forums anyyyyyyway. I mean if a man likes men then logic says the men only forum is where he needs to be. If a woman likes women she needs to be in women only forum. Makes logic sense to me. If a person is gay and wants to have a Christian gay forum then create a Christian gay board. Some gay topics here and there makes sense. Of course it will come up but if people post gay topics sooooooooooo much that a forum had to be created in the first place just to house all those threads :scratch: Then create your own board. I mean good grief if I started as many magick threads as some people must have been starting gay threads I would tell me to have my own board too. Oh yea... I got one ^_^.

Take the hint.

[engiin]

I'm not quite sure wether or not your post is a insult or compliment or even either of those two.

Dear Anna, all you have to do is look at the number of posts I have made verses yours. I'm too new to have your perspective. I've only been able to read a few threads so far. I think I responded to a thread on stripping and one on homosexuality there. I haven't had time to read all those threads. :)

So, I don't know what's in them. I have no idea how many times things have been discussed etc.. This is really only an issue for people who read everything. I pick and choose at random something that interests me for the moment. I'm not interested in knowing what every thread says.


But I do know that Erwin created that forum for folks to be able to discuss issues about sexuality not just homosexuality.


And, like I said, Erwin should be thanked for that. I see people complaining, without taking this into consideration too. So, if it wasn't explicit enough "Thank you Erwin". I hope someone doesn't take this as an insult.


But of course it turned into a forum with nothing but homosexuality threads. Folks debating over and over on the exact same stance. Nobody was going to change their mind on the subject.

I didn't think the idea was to change minds, but to provide a forum for people to express their views. Only God knows why people change their minds, or even why they hold the opinions they do. Eventually, people who try to change other minds get tired of the fight and quit on their own. It's called "being full". Nobody has to help them. But, I sympathise with moderators, since they are the only ones who get tired of this stuff. We the posters don't have to read what we don't want to !


Some of us learned the meaning of respect and love even though we disagree on every little point.

I agree, it's good to learn things we didn't know before. I think many people learn these things through interacting in forums like this. Which is another reason not to close down threads prematurely, let the posters see the same truth you do by experiencing enough repetitive posts!


I for one am glad it is gone. The posts were just repeating themselves, wasn't getting anywhere. I'm also glad that we had it for the short time that we did, for the good reasons that I listed above.

Like I said, I can't relate. I haven't been around long enough here. But, if the attitude is that once something is repeated too often it is removed, I think you'll find another problem that may not have occurred to you. That those ideas will simply return in other threads elsewhere and you'll read them again and again. The best thing would have been to "close" threads that had become repetitive, but leave them there for people to read so that they would know what had already been discussed in the forum, and wouldn't rehash the same ideas all over again. Whenever you found someone going over the same ground, simply point them to the relevant old repetitive thread and "require" them to read it. :) That should do the trick. Let them experience the same fustration you did!

That's the best wisdom I can think of.

[Rising Tree]

Well homosexuality topics need to be in gender forums anyyyyyyway. I mean if a man likes men then logic says the men only forum is where he needs to be. If a woman likes women she needs to be in women only forum. Makes logic sense to me. If a person is gay and wants to have a Christian gay forum then create a Christian gay board. Some gay topics here and there makes sense. Of course it will come up but if people post gay topics sooooooooooo much that a forum had to be created in the first place just to house all those threads :scratch: Then create your own board. I mean good grief if I started as many magick threads as some people must have been starting gay threads I would tell me to have my own board too. Oh yea... I got one ^_^.

Take the hint.
Interesting idea, but this would surely create a feeding ground for flame wars.

[Rising Tree]

The sad thing is...I was coming on here today to start a thread about how much I loved CF and thought it was so well-managed, that there was a forum to discuss just about everything under the sun, that flame wars and offensive posts are quickly contained and snuffed, and people bring a level of insight found in few other places on the Internet.

And then I see this. I'm so divided on this and don't really know whether this was the right move or not. Aah I'm just taking it too personally I guess. http://www.tauniverse.com/ubb/harvey.gif:(

Of course, had I been a regular poster there, my opinions on the matter might be significantly different.

[Gunny]

However, the difference between those and the Sexuality & Christianity forum was that the ideas promoted in the S&C forum were not only non-Christian, but life-damaging to certain impressionable individuals.
Amen!

[Gunny]

Amen... there arent many safe sanctuaries left... lets preserve this one.



I love you Jesus!!!
My savior
My life!!!



:prayer:

AMEN!

[TCapp]

Erwin was placed in a difficult spot. It seems that no matter what move he made, there were nothing but flame wars and hostility. I do not envy him and I do not know what would have been the best solution - short of prescribing valium for everyone. I know he tried hard, did his best to provide a sounding board for folks. Perhaps if civility reigned, this would not have happened.

But then again, I don't know. I stayed out of those threads because they were just ugly.

It was a good try, Erwin. It's too bad it collapsed in on itself.

[La Bonita Zorilla]

I always thought sexual related topics needed to be discuss in gender only forums. Men got sexual issues they need to discuss it with men. Women have sexual issues they need to discuss it with other women. I have no idea how cross gender discussion on sexuality in a Christian forum could make sense.
That strikes me as, well, different from my worldview. Many gay men are close to straight women and many lesbians are close to straight men. Discussion of sexual issues should not be limited to particular genders by any standard I can conceive. In the women's forum occasionally people ask males to not respond and that's generally honored. I suppose men could do the same in men's forum though I don't know that any would want to. The topics where women do that are usually related to gynecology and not of interest to many men anyway.

[seebs]

I agreed with that decision :wave: I always thought sexual related topics needed to be discuss in gender only forums. Men got sexual issues they need to discuss it with men. Women have sexual issues they need to discuss it with other women. I have no idea how cross gender discussion on sexuality in a Christian forum could make sense.

I am under the impression that many men are a little naive in their understanding of female sexuality; a little discussion can be good for this sort of thing.

Many questions are inherently non gender-specific; the question of when you are or aren't morally allowed to have sex applies to both genders, unless you like the old-school thing where only women have to be pure, and men can do whatever they want.

[engiin]

It seems that no matter what move he made, there were nothing but flame wars and hostility..

Noooooo...I've been around the internet for a long time. I've seen no hostility here. If you want to see hostility go read the usenet groups. I've seen passionate views expressed here. But, that's good. It means people believe in what they are saying and not just babbling. There's no swearing, nor cursing, nor hitting the opponent over his head with a mallet. People simply agree to disagree. That's what some people call hostility? The thing about the internet is that you can't really tell how passionate the other person is, just from his words. It's the written word. All you see is your own mind looking back at you. The hostility is mostly in the mind of the reader. That's why there are all these smileys :) ;) :D :wave: :P and emoticons. But, people forget. The thing is the mind is wrathful, the heart is peaceful, but the heart doesn't do most of the intellectual work of the individual. So, when someone reads the written word, he first sees his own wrathful mind reporting the text to him, then he has to stop and reflect a good while to see the heart peeping through the text. If he is impatient, all he/she sees is wrath.

[New Creation]

Echoing Engiin on the point that there's not much hostility here compared to the rest of the net.

I'm sorry that the forum is gone myself but I had noticed it was getting pretty hard-core which was a little worrying.

This seems rather obvious to me, so I'm going to assume that it's already been tried or suggested. CF, though it invites people of other faiths to participate is primarily for Christians, correct? Well, like so many other forums, why not a sexuality forum for Christians only?

[Inspired]

Well homosexuality topics need to be in gender forums anyyyyyyway. I mean if a man likes men then logic says the men only forum is where he needs to be. If a woman likes women she needs to be in women only forum. Makes logic sense to me. If a person is gay and wants to have a Christian gay forum then create a Christian gay board. Some gay topics here and there makes sense. Of course it will come up but if people post gay topics sooooooooooo much that a forum had to be created in the first place just to house all those threads :scratch: Then create your own board. I mean good grief if I started as many magick threads as some people must have been starting gay threads I would tell me to have my own board too. Oh yea... I got one ^_^.

Take the hint.

But that goes under the theory that there are only two genders, there aren't, and we have at least two intrasexuals that we know of that are members, so they just don't post anywhere, when they have concerns?

There are Christian gay boards, many, but that's just like locking myself back in a closet, why do I have to go to a gay board in order to dicuss religion with other Christians?

[TCapp]

Echoing Engiin on the point that there's not much hostility here compared to the rest of the net.
I stand corrected . . . :( (Although seeing the word "bigot" thrown around as much as I have doesn't convince me much.) But it matters not to me, I guess, as I have no stomach for that kind of discussion anymore, anyway - and have more immediate concerns, like trying not to be fatigued and severely depressed (which I seem to be failing at).

I'll stop complaining and slink off to my own corner now. Please nobody take any umbrage, I do not say this with sarcasm or bitterness. Just with sadness and matter-of-fact. I'm truly sorry I brought it up. I should not be posting at 1:30 am while suffering from insomnia and after having a hard day.

Have a pleasant evening.

[AnnMercy2]

Dear Anna, all you have to do is look at the number of posts I have made verses yours. I'm too new to have your perspective. I've only been able to read a few threads so far. I think I responded to a thread on stripping and one on homosexuality there. I haven't had time to read all those threads. :)

So, I don't know what's in them. I have no idea how many times things have been discussed etc.. This is really only an issue for people who read everything. I pick and choose at random something that interests me for the moment. I'm not interested in knowing what every thread says.



And, like I said, Erwin should be thanked for that. I see people complaining, without taking this into consideration too. So, if it wasn't explicit enough "Thank you Erwin". I hope someone doesn't take this as an insult.



I didn't think the idea was to change minds, but to provide a forum for people to express their views. Only God knows why people change their minds, or even why they hold the opinions they do. Eventually, people who try to change other minds get tired of the fight and quit on their own. It's called "being full". Nobody has to help them. But, I sympathise with moderators, since they are the only ones who get tired of this stuff. We the posters don't have to read what we don't want to !



I agree, it's good to learn things we didn't know before. I think many people learn these things through interacting in forums like this. Which is another reason not to close down threads prematurely, let the posters see the same truth you do by experiencing enough repetitive posts!



Like I said, I can't relate. I haven't been around long enough here. But, if the attitude is that once something is repeated too often it is removed, I think you'll find another problem that may not have occurred to you. That those ideas will simply return in other threads elsewhere and you'll read them again and again. The best thing would have been to "close" threads that had become repetitive, but leave them there for people to read so that they would know what had already been discussed in the forum, and wouldn't rehash the same ideas all over again. Whenever you found someone going over the same ground, simply point them to the relevant old repetitive thread and "require" them to read it. :) That should do the trick. Let them experience the same fustration you did!

That's the best wisdom I can think of.

Thank you for explaining your post. I really honestly couldn't figure out if you meant it as insult or complinment :hug: I should have specified my confusion in my post, sorry about that :sorry: As for the rest of my post it was just my thoughts on this whole subject and not directed towards you or anything. I'm sooo sorry for not specifying that. Please forgive me on that one, made boo-boo because was in hurry to get to work. Didn't quite think out how my post would've been taken. So again, sorry :sorry:

And I totally get what your saying but we tried everything we could think of to keep that forum open. Inlcuding creating the sticky threads on each of the topics of homosexuality. Closing down threads that repeated what the stickies were about. Nothing worked, it was getting harder and harder to moderate and a regular pain in the butt. We couldn't satisfiy everyone, but of course that is impossible to do, so we didn't even try.

I think the best thing is to take what we have all learned from this and try to do better and always keep in mind to always do what the Lord wants us to do even when everyone might look down on us and disagree with us.

I have nothing but love for everybody here. I love each and everyone of you. So here is a :hug: for everyone.

/me is now going to get outta this thread before she does anymore damage :P

Love ya'll
Anna

[Erwin]

It was a good try, Erwin. It's too bad it collapsed in on itself.

Give us credit for at least being brave enough to have trialed it despite opposition from the more convervative members of CF. :)

Believe me, no one tried harder than myself to keep that forum open. I have no doubt in my mind that Christians should never shy away from difficult topics - sexuality being one of them. If we don't have the answers, then why do we keep telling people we do? :)

Well, like so many other forums, why not a sexuality forum for Christians only?

Good question. That was one of the options discussed by the staff, as I posted in the first post. However, only 1 or 2 staff wanted that.

Put it this way, if there was a Christian-only sexuality forum, shouldn't that forum be the Marriage Forum? Or the Courting Couples Forum? Like I posted in the first post, there are existing forums, both Open and Christian-only, that cater for such topics.

Obviously, this site is constantly evolving, so this is not the end of this issue, not by any means. We shall see what is over the horizon.

[Icystwolf]

But what about the christians who either 1. struggle with their sexuality, 2. are looking for some form of advice in a safe enviroment from both christians AND non-christians on matters pertaining to their sexuality, and 3. people who want to GIVE their advice in the enviroment mentioned above?First of all, if a person has a problem I'm sure the first place they wouldn't start looking would be in a debating arena....

And if they want to know what the Bible teaches of the problem, then it's better that they'd ask several forums within CF, the first place could be the catholics, the next, Protestants then maybe the Liberals... however if you have a forum where each person turns sour....I doubt the outcome is any better.


With the loss of the S&C part of this forum, posts dealing with sexuality will be more spread out. That will increase the range of people who can see them, and decrease the chance of someone finding a topic that they are looking for that talks about what they need.They can always start a topic if they want...if it's already dealt with, then the kind Christians can redirect them.

The CF is split into categories, rather than blind forums...if they want an opinion from a section of the society, say the Presbyterians and Baptists..then they'll go to theology where the Bible keepers give their opinion.



You talk about keeping this place a safe haven for the younger once, but then they take out the niche that was assigned to us. If kids shouldn't be looking in the area, then its up to the parents to control that. Either that, or force everyone to keep their age next to their name and delete all posts by minors. Or have an area where its ok for them to post, but keep it monitored by a MOD with very strict rules as to what can be talked about. ~shrug~This forum trusts that each person(Christians and non-Christians, esspecially Christians) is honest. And stopping people lying about their age is not our job, it's God's.... I hope you understand the element of trust.

[DJ B.K.]

I just don't understand why some people are hating this forum some, just because 2 forums were shut down. People would be mad no matter what happened. I'm pretty sure Erwin had nothing but good intentions when we did this. I don't even know what I would've done personally.

[Shekinahs]

Interesting idea, but this would surely create a feeding ground for flame wars.
I can see that. Then the Liberal Theology section is the ideal place for Christians who are gay. Flaming is going to happen. I mean a general Christian board is NOT a haven for gay Christians (or any non traditional Christian for that matter) that is the first reality some people have to accept. I typed the words 'gay Christian' into Google and a number of websites showed up. And some of them may have a message board. Or like I said if one does not exist then someone can step up and start their own board. Seriously, if people want to start their own message board and need help on how to begin that project just pm me :wave:. It can be as simple as starting a Yahoo group (I have one for Esoteric Christians) or something more complicated as a message board software that needs a website to be hosted on (I have that too). I can help them get started. But if they want to be gay and Christian on this board then Liberal Theology may be their best opition but they will still get flamed by some folks around here. :scratch:

The sad thing is that some people start threads JUST to bash homosexuality. :mad: That's just mean.

[Shekinahs]

Put it this way, if there was a Christian-only sexuality forum, shouldn't that forum be the Marriage Forum? Or the Courting Couples Forum?

DITTTOOOO speak louder. Some folks not hearing ya ^_^

[Shekinahs]

But that goes under the theory that there are only two genders, there aren't, and we have at least two intrasexuals that we know of that are members, so they just don't post anywhere, when they have concerns?
:o I don't even wanna ask. God made male and female. Only two genders I know of.

There are Christian gay boards, many, but that's just like locking myself back in a closet, why do I have to go to a gay board in order to dicuss religion with other Christians?
You do not. Who said gay Christians could not post around here :scratch: If you are posting religion then your sexuality has nothing to do with that. And nobody (from what I have read) is saying not post gay topics. All I was saying is if a person wants to start a lot of gay threads then they need to be on a gay board. That's just logic. Having a thread for gay Christians I can see that making sense. Nothing wrong with people have a thread where others of like interest can hang out but when there were so many threads it needed to be in it's own forum? Then it's time for a gay Christian board. IMO.

[Shekinahs]

I am under the impression that many men are a little naive in their understanding of female sexuality; a little discussion can be good for this sort of thing.
IMO only a married or an engaged man or men in VERYYYYY serious relationships ( you should be getting engaged then LOL) needs to be understanding a woman's sexuality. ^_^ But women's sexuality is a topic of the female body and truth is should we be having those kinds of conversations on a Christian board? If it can be kept biology oriented then that's cool.


Many questions are inherently non gender-specific; the question of when you are or aren't morally allowed to have sex applies to both genders, unless you like the old-school thing where only women have to be pure, and men can do whatever they want.
Nope I think that both men and women need purity in their bodies. I don't mean that to say chastity but more of a wholesomeness to their bodies. Which tends to lead to chastity for a lot of people. The bodies are sacred temples.

[Gunny]

I don't even wanna ask. God made male and female. Only two genders I know of.


All I was saying is if a person wants to start a lot of gay threads then they need to be on a gay board.



Nope I think that both men and women need purity in their bodies. I don't mean that to say chastity but more of a wholesomeness to their bodies. Which tends to lead to chastity for a lot of people. The bodies are sacred temples.

AMEN.

[love&forgiveness]

[QUOTE]
The sad thing is that some people start threads JUST to bash homosexuality. :mad: That's just mean.[/QUOTE

i think it was the right decision to close it down for the opposite reason to this.
i think threads were being started to bash homosexuals who had overcome their sin ,and bashing people who put all their faith ,love and life in the hands of God ,people who are being prepared to commit all their selves to Him no matter what.
threads were started to bash the name of Christ himself.
i only saw it going downhill and it seemed to encourage threads that had no place on a Christian site.
God bless you for your decision and may He bless you for what must be a very difficult job here.

[StuckRags]

But what about the christians who either 1. struggle with their sexuality, 2. are looking for some form of advice in a safe enviroment from both christians AND non-christians on matters pertaining to their sexuality, and 3. people who want to GIVE their advice in the enviroment mentioned above?

There is the mens corner for this (for men). Women talk about this stuff face-to-face by their very nature (and maybe they have their own forum, I'm not sure). Ideally, one SHOULD be talking face-to-face with someone about these issues, and especially with someone of their own gender. That usually means the person they are talking to is truly interested in helping with the problem. You start throwing your problem out to the public in the S&C forum, you get nothing but people attacking you, bad advice, or starting arguments between other people.

If the S&C forum was your soul source for learning about and discussing (attacking people on/giving advice/starting arguments) sexual issues, then you have bigger fish to fry.....

[tulc]

Man I go away for my anniv. and whole forums are shut down! :( It's getting so I don't dare blink for fear of what I might miss!
tulc(not self-absorbed, just real aware of how cool I am!) :cool:

[Arthur Dietrich]

[QUOTE]
The sad thing is that some people start threads JUST to bash homosexuality. :mad: That's just mean.[/QUOTE

i think it was the right decision to close it down for the opposite reason to this.
i think threads were being started to bash homosexuals who had overcome their sin ,and bashing people who put all their faith ,love and life in the hands of God ,people who are being prepared to commit all their selves to Him no matter what.
threads were started to bash the name of Christ himself.
i only saw it going downhill and it seemed to encourage threads that had no place on a Christian site.
God bless you for your decision and may He bless you for what must be a very difficult job here.
We obviously read different threads on a completely different website.

In any event...I stand by what I said before. It lost it's novelty (for me, at least) long ago.

[Gunny]

i think it was the right decision to close it down for the opposite reason to this.
i think threads were being started to bash homosexuals who had overcome their sin ,and bashing people who put all their faith ,love and life in the hands of God ,people who are being prepared to commit all their selves to Him no matter what.
threads were started to bash the name of Christ himself.
i only saw it going downhill and it seemed to encourage threads that had no place on a Christian site.
God bless you for your decision and may He bless you for what must be a very difficult job here.

Amen, fellow brother In Christ.

[Angeldove97]

[QUOTE]
The sad thing is that some people start threads JUST to bash homosexuality. :mad: That's just mean.[/QUOTE

i think it was the right decision to close it down for the opposite reason to this.
i think threads were being started to bash homosexuals who had overcome their sin ,and bashing people who put all their faith ,love and life in the hands of God ,people who are being prepared to commit all their selves to Him no matter what.
threads were started to bash the name of Christ himself.
i only saw it going downhill and it seemed to encourage threads that had no place on a Christian site.
God bless you for your decision and may He bless you for what must be a very difficult job here.

I totally agree with you. I don't want to join any discussion board that is going to bash any of my Christian brothers and sisters, especially when it has to do with a sin because I mean nobody is perfect *cept my dear Jesus* and then you kno like when you're about to do something wrong and a verse pops into your head and makes you shut up...it's like this...who are we to judge. I'm very happy for those who have decided to change their ways in the name of Jesus Christ and instead of bashing them, we should be thanking God that His Holy Spirit is in their hearts and helping them to stop sinning. A lot of us to take this ex-gay Christians as good examples to help us stop sinning as well. For those who decide they wish not to change, for what ever reason, I'll continue to love them as my Christian brother or sister and continue to pray for them as I would anybody at this site. I totally agree with this forum being closed down because there are other forums these types of questions can be posted at and better watched. I don't disagree at all with the moderators decision. I also want to strongly stress that instead of us fellow Christians fighting over something like this or about a person's sins, we join together, like our Savior wanted us to, and knock off bashing any Christian. So to end this, God bless! Love, Tanya :angel:

[looksgood]

Glad to see it go. I posted in there one or 2 times I think. But was rather ticked when I seen all the horrable sinfull answers and other posts made by people. I do wish it had become a CO forum though. At least that way it would have had some respect to God in it and people would still be able to ask the really hard and embaresing questions without feeling like a pervert.

[seebs]

IMO only a married or an engaged man or men in VERYYYYY serious relationships ( you should be getting engaged then LOL) needs to be understanding a woman's sexuality. ^_^ But women's sexuality is a topic of the female body and truth is should we be having those kinds of conversations on a Christian board? If it can be kept biology oriented then that's cool.

I don't see why we shouldn't have such discussions. Married people have sex, and it's not dirty or impure... so what if they want to discuss it? A bit of input from other people may help avoid misunderstandings.

Nope I think that both men and women need purity in their bodies. I don't mean that to say chastity but more of a wholesomeness to their bodies. Which tends to lead to chastity for a lot of people. The bodies are sacred temples.

I tend to agree - but I don't think sex is a problem for this. I'm sympathetic to the traditional Jewish opinion, which is that sex between married people is Torah.

[Link]

personally....I think it is dumb thing to do but who cares about what I have to say around here.
(not that I go there anyway but)

[Gunny]

Glad to see it go. I posted in there one or 2 times I think. But was rather ticked when I seen all the horrable sinfull answers and other posts made by people. I do wish it had become a CO forum though. At least that way it would have had some respect to God in it and people would still be able to ask the really hard and embaresing questions without feeling like a pervert.
Very well said, fellow brother In Christ.

[Gunny]

I also want to strongly stress that instead of us fellow Christians fighting over something like this or about a person's sins, we join together, like our Savior wanted us to, and knock off bashing any Christian. So to end this, God bless! Love, Tanya :angel:
I really believe that it wasn't about fighting and/or bashing but Christians surrendering their lives in obedience to the Holy Word of God and speaking boldly concerning this process of sanctification which pleases and glorifys our wonderful Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

[Erwin]

FWIW, a Christians-only Sexuality forum may be in the books. It may be as a subforum in the Marriage Ministry area. Maybe.

[La Bonita Zorilla]

seeing the word "bigot" thrown around as much as I have
Part of the problem in dealing with this issue on a Christian Forum where both fundamentalists and liberal Christians post is that often the former feel an entitlement to engage in bad behavior without being called on it. IMO this was exactly what happened whenever that term was employed.

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Then the Liberal Theology section is the ideal place for Christians who are gay.
For most, but many LGBT Christians are not liberal in any sense, so that's far from an allencompassing solution.

[/QUOTE]The sad thing is that some people start threads JUST to bash homosexuality. :mad: That's just mean.[/QUOTE]
Some do more than that; their rationale is to bash homosexuals not homosexuality despite their trite and insincere mantra of hating the sin loving the sinner. This is not likely to be reduced whatsoever by this result.

[La Bonita Zorilla]

i think threads were being started to bash homosexuals who had overcome their sin
I do not think so. There is significant disagreement just what "sin" homosexuals commit if any among Christians. Many of us believe the fraudulent ex-gay therapies are harmful and hurtful to those they claim to serve and that is a legitimate position, considering how ethical therapists cannot work in such programs without sanctions against them being leveled by their professional colleagues and licensing authorities.

[msjones21]

People come to a website called christianforums, post in a Sexuality & Christianity forum, and then complain when their unChristian posts are not necessarily well-received. You have your own websites. If you don't want to be a "victim of fascism" then go post on some other site that doesn't encompass Christian beliefs.

[Roman Soldier]

People come to a website called christianforums, post in a Sexuality & Christianity forum, and then complain when their unChristian posts are not necessarily well-received. You have your own websites. If you don't want to be a "victim of fascism" then go post on some other site that doesn't encompass Christian beliefs.

Thank you for proving my point.

[brettnolan]

good call. Although I do agree that there are other boards where the Christian viewpoint isn't always well represented.

[Mac6yver]

People come to a website called christianforums, post in a Sexuality & Christianity forum, and then complain when their unChristian posts are not necessarily well-received. You have your own websites. If you don't want to be a "victim of fascism" then go post on some other site that doesn't encompass Christian beliefs.

The difference is this. The other forums I visit would not prohibit Christians from expressing their views on those boards. It would not be censored.

[Roman Soldier]

good call. Although I do agree that there are other boards where the Christian viewpoint isn't always well represented.

Who determines what the "Christian viewpoint" is? And don't tell me the Bible because that is all subject to one's interpretation.

[Gunny]

I do not think so. There is significant disagreement just what "sin" homosexuals commit if any among Christians. The disagreement is fostered by the Post Modern/Christian Era in which we live and the tidal wave of unsound doctrine being fostered by individuals that view scripture in any fashion they choose so it does not offend.

[Gunny]

Part of the problem in dealing with this issue on a Christian Forum where both fundamentalists and liberal Christians post is that often the former feel an entitlement to engage in bad behavior without being called on it. IMO this was exactly what happened whenever that term was employed.
Liberal Christianity view scripture from a humanstic viewpoint more times than not.

The "Bad Behavior" of the "fundamentalists" aka individuals born again of God's Holy Spirit adhere to systematic theology and sound doctrine and truly believe the following:

1. God without a shadow of a doubt has preserved His Holy Word

2. God's Holy Word is inerrant and authorative concerning all things in the daily walk of the disciple of Jesus Christ

3. Believe what God's Word states concerning that which pleases Him and that which angers Him.

4. Understand that God is love

5. God is holy

6. God is to be reverently feared for He also is a God of wrath and judgement

7. God expects His children/people to live a life dedicated to personal holiness

8. God expects His redeemed to place Him and Him alone as the most important factor in the life of the believer.


God's Word speaks so very clearly of the nature of Himself and our relationship with Him.

[seebs]

Could we maybe put the debate about liberals and fundamentalists, oh, I don't know, somewhere like the Liberal Theology forum?

There are serious issues here to do with what options someone seeking to learn more about sexuality has here.

[BigToe]

so only "fundamentalists" are christians born of the Holy Spirit now?

[Gunny]

There are serious issues here to do with what options someone seeking to learn more about sexuality has here.Yes, I viewed countless threads of serious sexuality issues on the former C&S forum- such topics as I see advertised on TV regarding upcoming Jerry Springer shows.

[BigToe]

actually there were several threads in there that were not close to being talkshow topics. because you dont like a few doesnt mean they were all bad.

[Gunny]

actually there were several threads in there that were not close to being talkshow topics. because you dont like a few doesnt mean they were all bad.
The topics I speak of can not be posted without offending young and old alike-Christians that are filled with the Holy Spirit and seek daily to walk in the Spirit vs. the flesh.

[BigToe]

so then don't participate in those threads? i never got why it was such a horrible thing. people would go in there saying it was a terrible area.... well then just don't go there? i don't go in the areas i don't like... is it really that difficult a concept?

[Gunny]

so only "fundamentalists" are christians born of the Holy Spirit now?The term "fundamentalist" is a man made term that I personally don't acknowledge or accept as having anything to do with a Christian Born again of God's Holy Spirit.

This derogatory term is used by those that use it as a rallying cry against those that believe such things as:



1. God without a shadow of a doubt has preserved His Holy Word

2. God's Holy Word is inerrant and authorative concerning all things in the daily walk of the disciple of Jesus Christ

3. Believe what God's Word states concerning that which pleases Him and that which angers Him.

4. Understand that God is love

5. God is holy

6. God is to be reverently feared for He also is a God of wrath and judgement

7. God expects His children/people to live a life dedicated to personal holiness

8. God expects His redeemed to place Him and Him alone as the most important factor in the life of the believer.


God's Word speaks so very clearly of the nature of Himself and our relationship with Him.

[Gunny]

i don't go in the areas i don't like... is it really that difficult a concept?
Christians are called and commanded by the Word of God to proclaim His Word-espicially in the Post Modern/Christian Era we live where sound doctrine is hard to be found for man has imposed his doctrine/wordly beliefs on the Holy Word of God.

[Brimshack]

I am continually amazed at the stress this topic sems to cause so many Christians, and at the shear lack of perspective so many have shown regarding this issue.

- The very same people who used to post thread after thread explaining what was wrong with homosexuality would then post complaints about how there were too many posts on the subject. It was absolutely infuriating to read people blame the liberals for the number os these threads when conservatives were feeding the fire every bit as much, and if people can't at least be honest about that much, then certainly they ought to stay out of that area.

- Ever since I can remember there have been large numbers of discussions about homosexuality, and ever since I can remember there have been complaints about it. So, the forum was made in an effort to segregate the homosexuality discussions from other fora. Then the complain was that there were too many threads about homosexuality in that forum, and Lanakila spend a marathon session fusing every thread on the subject she could find into a few stickies at the top of the forum. So, now that's still too much. Do you guys actually think no-one is going to want to discuss this in the future? or have you decided that you'd rather it was all over the place again?

And normally, I would disagree that any given topic is inappropriate for discussion. But I'm sorry, I think the forum has genuinely failed on this one. It would appear that a significant quantity of members of this board are NOT capable of handling this topic in a responsible fashion. It's a shame, because I can't think of an area where more good could be accomplished simply by talking about the subject.

[msjones21]

Thank you for proving my point. Not exactly sure what that little jab was all about. How about instead of using snide remarks and vague statements you come right out and say what you're really thanking me for?

The difference is this. The other forums I visit would not prohibit Christians from expressing their views on those boards. It would not be censored. Maybe not, but I'd be willing to bet a Christian would be torn to shreds for posting something in direct opposition to a non-Christians viewpoint.

Who determines what the "Christian viewpoint" is? And don't tell me the Bible because that is all subject to one's interpretation.Sorry, wrong answer. The ONLY source of Christian living is the Holy Spirit speaking through the Word. Any other method and you'd just be wandering aimlessly through life just doing whatever felt right on a whim.


so then don't participate in those threads? i never got why it was such a horrible thing. people would go in there saying it was a terrible area.... well then just don't go there? i don't go in the areas i don't like... is it really that difficult a concept?
*coughs* I could say the same thing about the non-Christians who post responses in threads where a Christian was specifically asking for Christian advice. They would make crass remarks and tell people the exact opposite of what they were looking to hear as a way to "stick it" to the Christians. If a Christian sees a thread advocating homosexuality, just because they don't like the topic at hand, doesn't mean they should be silenced or stay away from that thread. That would make for a very boring and one-sided thread, don't ya think?

[Brimshack]

Double-Post

[Mac6yver]

Maybe not, but I'd be willing to bet a Christian would be torn to shreds for posting something in direct opposition to a non-Christians viewpoint.

Well, is it not same only opposite here?

[Roman Soldier]

Comments Removed- this isn't a thread worth debating in.

[msjones21]

Well, is it not same only opposite here?
Not really. Spirited debate and a verbal b****slap are two very different things, indeed. I've participated in predominantly non-theist debate forums before and I've witnessed firsthand how Christian opinions are received.

You complained about non-Christians being allowed to post thoughts that do not agree with your own (disguised as the "Christian viewpoint"). You have succeed in obtaining censorship.

There's no disguise to it. There is the Christian viewpoint and there's everything else. It's not "the word according to Msjones", it's about what the Bible says. Sorry if that doesn't mesh well with you. And my problem wasn't about non-christians posting on that forum. My problem was with non-christians taking jabs at Christian beliefs and principles in threads which were specifically posted so that the OP could receive Christian counsel.

How long until the Evolution forum is closed because posts are made which do not agree with your viewpoint? How long until General Apologetics is closed? How long until all non-believers are banned? Then how long until the Catholics are gone because their posts don't please you?
The S&C board was out of control. It had become a flame war and BOTH sides were to blame. There are strict guidelines on the various denominational forums which are in place to prevent discord. I'm certain if the GA and Evolution boards turn into an all-out flame war they would be shut down as well and rightfully so.

[BigToe]

no i mean that if people think its stupid to have threads on a subject, why participate. i didnt say they shouldn't or cannot participate. but if they dont like it- dont do it!

[Roman Soldier]

Comments Removed.

[AngelAmidala]

:wave: We're not turning this into another debating thread that I'm gonna need to shut down, are we? ;)

Remember...this forum is mostly for Erwin to announce changes to things like rules, forums, and how things work. You can discuss the changes themselves, but let's keep the discussing/debating regular issues for the forums or PMs. :)

Thanks all!!

[P3nguin1]

Gee, I wonder why the S&C forum was closed....





Threads like this one were the reason.



I personally get a kick out of reading it tho :P









This is why organizations such as the ACLU are necessary, to protect us from censorship by Biblical Literalists such as yourself.
Come on CJ, you know better than that. You can't claim censorship on a privatly run message board....

Protected speech only applies to arenas where government funding is concerned. I doubt Uncle Sam is a supporter of this site.

[Roman Soldier]

Comments Removed.

[Roman Soldier]

Comments Removed.

[Droobie]

PS, if that is true then the protestors in the parking lots of privately owned abortion clinics don't have a right to start a riot, do they?
Can't they be removed if it's private property?

[Roman Soldier]

Comments removed.

[Robert Bingham]

Before this ugly trainwreck gets locked up, can I please get some assistance with the request I made back in post #8? :)

[Erwin]

A little bit sudden but I accept the decision. :wave:

Is it possible for me to print out or locally save two specific threads that I started? One was about sexual immorality and another was about BDSM. I am not trying to unring the bell but those threads had some thoughtful discussion and I would like to keep private copies for future reference. :)
PM a moderator who can do this for you. :)

[Brimshack]

OK, I've already screwed up, so I imagine you'll be moving one of my threads out of politics now, but I'm wondering about the logic of allowing sexual topics in only 3 open fora. What if someone does want to discuss the politics of a sexual topic? What if someone does want to discuss the psychological questions of sexuality? When there was a sexuality forum restricting other fora made some sense, but now that there isn't a general place to discuss sex, the gaps between the acceptable fora leaves a number of gaps. There doesn't seem to be an internal logic to it.

[Svt4Him]

I think tolerance is only tolerant of the tolerant. Those who shout the loudest at freedom and rights seem to have a problem with a mod/admin exercises their freedom and rights. Kind of ironic if you think about it.

Good job to the admins/mods.

[Brimshack]

Standard straw man.

[La Bonita Zorilla]

There is the Christian viewpoint and there's everything else. It's not "the word according to Msjones", it's about what the Bible says.
More, correctly in your case it's what you think the Bible says.

There is most certainly no one "Christian" viewpoint on the issues of the day.

[Erwin]

OK, I've already screwed up, so I imagine you'll be moving one of my threads out of politics now, but I'm wondering about the logic of allowing sexual topics in only 3 open fora. What if someone does want to discuss the politics of a sexual topic? What if someone does want to discuss the psychological questions of sexuality? When there was a sexuality forum restricting other fora made some sense, but now that there isn't a general place to discuss sex, the gaps between the acceptable fora leaves a number of gaps. There doesn't seem to be an internal logic to it.
I agree that the current situation is not ideal.

Again, this issue is not completely over. We are still discussing how to deal with this.

[Brimshack]

Fair enough Erwin.

My apologies for starting one in the wrong forum.

And I still think that the problem is not the structure of the forum. The fact is that a vocal quantity of your membership will object to discussing this topic no matter how you set it up. The constant call for changes in policy are simply a dissonance reduction strategy, one which is ultimately doomed to fail, albeit not before cause a lot of needless hassle.

[seebs]

That's a very good analysis, Brimshack. The problem is mostly that, if you don't want something discussed, it's pretty easy to kill the discussion, by making it turn nasty.

[Mac6yver]

I think tolerance is only tolerant of the tolerant. Those who shout the loudest at freedom and rights seem to have a problem with a mod/admin exercises their freedom and rights. Kind of ironic if you think about it.

Good job to the admins/mods.

That is the worst argument I have ever heard. That is like saying people who wished to be free from Stalin and the USSR were oppressing Stalins freedom to oppress them...

[Brimshack]

That's a very good analysis, Brimshack. The problem is mostly that, if you don't want something discussed, it's pretty easy to kill the discussion, by making it turn nasty.

…actually, I think you pinned the part I missed. I forgot your old analysis on flame-baiting, which is quite applicable here.

For the record: it's no skin off my teeth no matter how you guys set up the forum. And I realize I haven't had to mod it, which I know is a pain for anyone who has, but the complaints about sexuality threads have been here ever since I can remember. And I can't help but note that they often come from willing participants in those very threads. I just think it's a real mistake to think that changing the format is going to resolve this.

[P3nguin1]

I must admit that the logic seems a bit off:

We tried method "A", that didn't work.
We changed to method "A" in hopes it would be better.
Method "B" does not work.
We are going back to method "A" which we know does not work.

[Icystwolf]

I must admit that the logic seems a bit off:

We tried method "A", that didn't work.
We changed to method "A" in hopes it would be better.
Method "B" does not work.
We are going back to method "A" which we know does not work.
That logic is a bit off?....it's TOTALLY OFF....

One method is to impose new rules, plus have a playtime, so when a moderator is active,they'd constantly read each post before it's displayed, and when the moderator decides to sleep...then the thread closes for the night or for another hour, until another moderator actively monitors each post from another side of the world.

One of the new rules I'd like to see introduced, is a bann on comment without proof and rude comments about the other persons posts....that really sparks the whole argument in my opinion.

But then I suppose thats Plan C

[DJ B.K.]

That logic is a bit off?....it's TOTALLY OFF....

One method is to impose new rules, plus have a playtime, so when a moderator is active,they'd constantly read each post before it's displayed, and when the moderator decides to sleep...then the thread closes for the night or for another hour, until another moderator actively monitors each post from another side of the world.

One of the new rules I'd like to see introduced, is a bann on comment without proof and rude comments about the other persons posts....that really sparks the whole argument in my opinion.

But then I suppose thats Plan C
That seems like a good plan. Don't think it can't happen either, because this issue is not over. Erwin said so.

[StuckRags]

This thread has turned to silliness. This is not the place for debate. The issue is not debatable. It is over. S&C is closed. Deal with it. PM Erwin with your specific arguments/request and let him and the staff make their decisions.

The thread should be locked.

[Gunny]

This thread has turned to silliness. This is not the place for debate. The issue is not debatable. It is over. S&C is closed. Deal with it. PM Erwin with your specific arguments/request and let him and the staff make their decisions.

The thread should be locked.
Amen, fellow brother In Christ.

[Icystwolf]

This thread has turned to silliness. This is not the place for debate. The issue is not debatable. It is over. S&C is closed. Deal with it. PM Erwin with your specific arguments/request and let him and the staff make their decisions.

The thread should be locked.
Me?
I wasn't debating, just suggesting a new system that Erwin could use...

[StuckRags]

Me?
I wasn't debating, just suggesting a new system that Erwin could use...
Who said I was talking to you? Feeling guilty? ^_^


Just talking about the thread in general. Not pointing at any one person.

[Icystwolf]

Who said I was talking to you? Feeling guilty? ^_^


Just talking about the thread in general. Not pointing at any one person.
Oh...few!!.....that relieves a lot of stress...lol...

Yeh I agree, everyone seems to be pulling their bulldozer from their garage and trying to bump each other silly

[Christi]

It seems most of the people who posted in S & C had such strong feelings that their minds would never be changed, and it was a sparring contest more than anything. There should be somewhere here, though, that a homosexual Christian could go to discuss this. Many feel like outsiders, while struggling with this. As Christians, we tend to divide sins into categories.....some that are more acceptable and understandable to us, and some of us feel that a person can not possibly be a Christian and do this. I try to imagine if it was me and I wanted to love God all the way, and I wasn't attracted to the people I "should" be. I can't imagine how alone I'd feel if it was something I'd cried out to God about, and it wasn't changed. It's too easy for us heterosexuals to minimize something we can not relate to, by saying "Be celibate." They need encouragement, support, understanding, and love. Not condemnation, criticism, and name-calling. God is the ultimate judge, and His love extends further than ours ever could, which is why His judgement is just. But we shouldn't turn people away, because it's not our call to make. I agree that S&C was mainly dissension, but the people that posted there are still out there, and some are still hurting and confused. We should do something.

[StuckRags]

It seems most of the people who posted in S & C had such strong feelings that their minds would never be changed, and it was a sparring contest more than anything. There should be somewhere here, though, that a homosexual Christian could go to discuss this. Many feel like outsiders, while struggling with this. As Christians, we tend to divide sins into categories.....some that are more acceptable and understandable to us, and some of us feel that a person can not possibly be a Christian and do this. I try to imagine if it was me and I wanted to love God all the way, and I wasn't attracted to the people I "should" be. I can't imagine how alone I'd feel if it was something I'd cried out to God about, and it wasn't changed. It's too easy for us heterosexuals to minimize something we can not relate to, by saying "Be celibate." They need encouragement, support, understanding, and love. Not condemnation, criticism, and name-calling. God is the ultimate judge, and His love extends further than ours ever could, which is why His judgement is just. But we shouldn't turn people away, because it's not our call to make. I agree that S&C was mainly dissension, but the people that posted there are still out there, and some are still hurting and confused. We should do something.
Why make your sexuality such a big issue? Just focus on the things of God. If something you are doing gets in the way of your relationship with Jesus, then work towards stopping it. If not, get on with your spiritual life, spread a little love around while being sly as a snake and gentle as a dove. I don't go around saying, oh by the way, I'm a heterosexual. It's really none of anyone's business who I sleep with (except my wife's). If you think it is normal to be homosexual, act like it and move on. The S&C forum continually focused on the "bad" or "good" or "acceptabiliy of homosexuals. It's the same with masturbation in that forum. Is it bad? Is it ok? If it is interfering with your spiritual life, work to get rid of it. Otherwise, move on. Quit it! Quit making these forums such huge part of your spiritual health. The Bible is for that, not this forum. Everyone is anonymous here. They may or may not be who, or the type of person you think they are.

I have more to say about this but I have to go write a report now, so maybe later.

[seebs]

This thread has turned to silliness. This is not the place for debate. The issue is not debatable. It is over. S&C is closed. Deal with it. PM Erwin with your specific arguments/request and let him and the staff make their decisions.

The thread should be locked.

I disagree with this. Public discussion is very useful on issues like this; Erwin and the other staff can make a better decision if they have a better sense of the positions of different posters, and public discussion may allow us to identify, and propose solutions to, some of the problems we've had.

S&C was proposed as a solution to a problem; it didn't work as hoped, but the underlying problem is still there.

[Christi]

Why make your sexuality such a big issue? Just focus on the things of God. If something you are doing gets in the way of your relationship with Jesus, then work towards stopping it. If not, get on with your spiritual life, spread a little love around while being sly as a snake and gentle as a dove. I don't go around saying, oh by the way, I'm a heterosexual. It's really none of anyone's business who I sleep with (except my wife's). If you think it is normal to be homosexual, act like it and move on. The S&C forum continually focused on the "bad" or "good" or "acceptabiliy of homosexuals. It's the same with masturbation in that forum. Is it bad? Is it ok? If it is interfering with your spiritual life, work to get rid of it. Otherwise, move on. Quit it! Quit making these forums such huge part of your spiritual health. The Bible is for that, not this forum. Everyone is anonymous here. They may or may not be who, or the type of person you think they are.

I have more to say about this but I have to go write a report now, so maybe later.
Uhmmmm, I'm a heterosexual married woman with a "quiver-full" of children. Our sexuality is no big deal for you and I, because it doesn't have to be. If our relationships with our spouses were considered sin, what would we do? If you HAD to find human love with someone of your own sex or not at all, how would you feel? I just wish we could show some compassion and empathy for people who are crying out to God, but have been given a bigger thorn to face than you or I ever probably will,.... that's all my post was about. I'm not debating the sinfulness or not of homosexual relationships. I'm just trying to point out that there is a real NEED there. There are people thirsty for God, and He died for us while we were sinners, and we still are. We are to "seek ye first the kingdom of God", but some Christians have been given a heavier burden to carry on the road to righteousness. I think we should help them carry it, and not push them down. How am I wrong with that?

[Svt4Him]

That is the worst argument I have ever heard. That is like saying people who wished to be free from Stalin and the USSR were oppressing Stalins freedom to oppress them...
No, it's like saying if you come over to my house, take your shoes off, as it's my rule, and my house. You can then complain how I'm taking away your freedom, and how I'm intolerant, but you are still at my house, and are free to leave. Were the Russians free to leave?

[StuckRags]

Uhmmmm, I'm a heterosexual married woman with a "quiver-full" of children. Our sexuality is no big deal for you and I, because it doesn't have to be. If our relationships with our spouses were considered sin, what would we do? If you HAD to find human love with someone of your own sex or not at all, how would you feel? I just wish we could show some compassion and empathy for people who are crying out to God, but have been given a bigger thorn to face than you or I ever probably will,.... that's all my post was about. I'm not debating the sinfulness or not of homosexual relationships. I'm just trying to point out that there is a real NEED there. There are people thirsty for God, and He died for us while we were sinners, and we still are. We are to "seek ye first the kingdom of God", but some Christians have been given a heavier burden to carry on the road to righteousness. I think we should help them carry it, and not push them down. How am I wrong with that?
Sorry. For some reason the wording of your first post led me to believe otherwise. :blush:

Of course you are not wrong, but how long must there be discussion (among humans) about the sinfuless, or lack thereof, of homosexuality? The forum was out of control. It was full of people with planks in their eye, telling other people about the planks in their eyes. And this was on BOTH sides of the issue.

[Christi]

I agree. :)

[seebs]

Of course you are not wrong, but how long must there be discussion (among humans) about the sinfuless, or lack thereof, of homosexuality? The forum was out of control. It was full of people with planks in their eye, telling other people about the planks in their eyes. And this was on BOTH sides of the issue.

Agreed. However, one of the reasons for that is that the underlying need for the forum is great; if we could find a way to address that, it would help a lot.

[d0c markus]

you know i think this forum should officially link to this site...absoloutely awesome place

http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/home/

http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/images/logo.gif

[Gunny]

Agreed. However, one of the reasons for that is that the underlying need for the forum is great; if we could find a way to address that, it would help a lot.
The greatest need for any ministry (CF is a ministry) is to proclaim the Gospel message (Salvation).

[Gunny]

you know i think this forum should officially link to this site...absoloutely awesome place

http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/home/

http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/images/logo.gif
It is a wonderful ministry.

[love&forgiveness]

The greatest need for any ministry (CF is a ministry) is to proclaim the Gospel message (Salvation).
AMEN.

[seebs]

The greatest need for any ministry (CF is a ministry) is to proclaim the Gospel message (Salvation).

I'd tend to agree that that's the greatest need, but it's not the only need, or even the only very great need. If I meet a depressed Christian, repeating the message of salvation may not help much; depressed people may need other attentions, or other comforts.

When a friend of mine is going through rough times, I generally find that support and help go a long way. There are many people on these boards who are going through tough times, and more than a few who are going through tough lives. Providing these people with the support they need strikes me as a good way for us to fulfill the promise of Christian ministry.

Preaching the gospel is sort of like the wedding vows; it's crucial, and without it there's no wedding, but it's not the end of the story, or the end of your work.

[Gunny]

I'd tend to agree that that's the greatest need, but it's not the only need, or even the only very great need. If I meet a depressed Christian, repeating the message of salvation may not help much; depressed people may need other attentions, or other comforts.

When a friend of mine is going through rough times, I generally find that support and help go a long way. There are many people on these boards who are going through tough times, and more than a few who are going through tough lives. Providing these people with the support they need strikes me as a good way for us to fulfill the promise of Christian ministry.

Preaching the gospel is sort of like the wedding vows; it's crucial, and without it there's no wedding, but it's not the end of the story, or the end of your work.
I agree with you, Seebs. I believe when brothers and sisters In Christ are heavly burdened they need love, prayer and wise counsel-in person with a real live person vs. a message board in the cyber world.

Proclamation of the Salvation message is one that can be easily conveyed via the internet. Serious struggles/burdens are best dealt with in the actual company of other Christians.

[La Bonita Zorilla]

One of the new rules I'd like to see introduced, is a bann on comment without proof
The problem with that is ALL comment is "without proof".

[La Bonita Zorilla]

how long must there be discussion (among humans) about the sinfuless, or lack thereof, of homosexuality?
Actually, our former President Jimmy Carter, a noted Baptist deacon and humanitarian as well, has stated he believes at some point in the future the question about whether or not homosexuals may be good Christians may seem as quaint as the Peter-Paul debates over whether or not gentiles can be Christians. Of course they can, but eliminating prejudice and ignorance takes time.

[E-beth]

/me is glad the announcements forum is not HER forum to moderate....

teehee to Angel A...

[seebs]

I agree with you, Seebs. I believe when brothers and sisters In Christ are heavly burdened they need love, prayer and wise counsel-in person with a real live person vs. a message board in the cyber world.

Proclamation of the Salvation message is one that can be easily conveyed via the internet. Serious struggles/burdens are best dealt with in the actual company of other Christians.

Well, let's say for the sake of argument that we agree that these things are best handled face-to-face.

What, then, of the people who have no one they can turn to face-to-face, who are alone and scared? Shall we turn them away because something they don't have would be better than what we could give them? I think we should give them what they can, and pray God can make up for the shortcomings of the medium.

[Icystwolf]

The problem with that is ALL comment is "without proof".
All comments are based on opinion, it would be nicer to understand where people derive their ideas from.

[Inspired]

All comments are based on opinion, it would be nicer to understand where people derive their ideas from.


how exactly would you intend to prove your opinion?

Can you prove that you think chocolate icecream is better than vanilla? I mean do really expect me to take your word for it?

Do you see the problem here?

[Inspired]

Why make your sexuality such a big issue?

I didn't make my sexuality a big issue, that was done for me. Gee thanks to everyone that helped.

When I am with my friends, if someone walks in sporting a shirt that says "I'm gay" normally I repsond with "want a cookie?" Unless I am out to make a statement about something, or to defend my rights, I leave the flag at home.

[Gunny]

What, then, of the people who have no one they can turn to face-to-face, who are alone and scared? Shall we turn them away because something they don't have would be better than what we could give them? I think we should give them what they can, and pray God can make up for the shortcomings of the medium.
What was offered in the now defunct Christianity and sexuality forum was in many ways very counter productive. If one was alone, scared, confused and a Christian they were offered much misinformation that could possibly make their plight much worse than prior to their arrival.

I believe that if sexual matters are to be discussed at a Christian website it is wise and prudent to do so in a Christian Only area.

Professing Christians that stated they were struggling with sexual sin, including but not limited to that of homosexuality were given IMHO very harmful suggestions.

Also, Professing Christians that posted wonderful testimony about deliverance from the sin of homosexuality were ostracized by non-Christians and Christians that profess to be homosexuals.

[seebs]

What was offered in the now defunct Christianity and sexuality forum was in many ways very counter productive. If one was alone, scared, confused and a Christian they were offered much misinformation that could possibly make their plight much worse than prior to their arrival.

On the whole, I agree... But nonetheless, I do agree that the forum was not especially helpful as it was.

The question is whether we could do something that would be productive.

Professing Christians that stated they were struggling with sexual sin, including but not limited to that of homosexuality were given IMHO very harmful suggestions.

I would rather they get both sets of suggestions, even though one of them is almost certainly wrong, in a peaceful and friendly environment, than get neither, or only one, or a hostile environment.

The biggest problem, IMHO, was not the bad advice, but the tone of hostility, condemnation, and anger, which was represented by both "sides" of any issue people could possibly disagree on.

Also, Professing Christians that posted wonderful testimony about deliverance from the sin of homosexuality were ostracized by non-Christians and Christians that profess to be homosexuals.

I saw a lot of testimonies from many different people derided or attacked, and I think it was counterproductive.

I have faith that, if people hear the testimonies of other people who have had very different experiences, that they can seek guidance and hope to be led into the truth. I would rather they hear multiple testimonies and decide among them prayerfully than have a knock-down, drag-out fight over which testimony they need to hear.

In any event, I think the best thing for us to do is try to find ways in which we can meet the needs of many of our fellow posters as best we can, even knowing that it will be imperfect. I think a discussion like this, in which people speak calmly and with respect for each others' positions, is our best chance of accomplishing this.

[Gunny]

In any event, I think the best thing for us to do is try to find ways in which we can meet the needs of many of our fellow posters as best we can, even knowing that it will be imperfect.


I believe that if sexual matters are to be discussed at a Christian website it is wise and prudent to do so in a Christian Only area.

[Icystwolf]

how exactly would you intend to prove your opinion?

Can you prove that you think chocolate icecream is better than vanilla? I mean do really expect me to take your word for it?

Do you see the problem here?
I see your problem...I can prove to you the difference in icecream flavors, because all well thought out opinion has a basis.

You can prove anything, as long as your open and avoid being stubbon. It makes people who want to say someting, think before they type. And if they realise they contradict themselves then they'd either cover it up and be ignorant or they can not post it at all.


The reason why I call this, is to make sure all gaps within the rules are sealed, no stones unturned and no gaps for indirect harrassement...

It is do-able in forums that contains a lot of arguments. Even if the debate is informal, a structure needs to be applied to make people think before they type.

It's funny how an easy solution is so hard for yourself to accept.

[Inspired]

It's still not that easy.

Example: I believe ice cream is a sin. ( ice cream used to avoid debate on any subject picked)

well then you get the question of why and desired proof from the opposition.

you can reply with because God said so, that will only lead to further problems because you are implying that if someoen doesn't agree with you they are questioning God, very dangerous territory.

you can reply with
chocolate 4:54 ( again made up to avoid debate)

well even if you view is shared by others, it's still just your view, doesn't make it fact. It's like forcing others to have your opinion.

there needs to be some room for others to have their beliefs even they are as wild as say a Jewish carpenter being the son of God, strange things happen.

[mpshiel]

If closing the Sexuality and opening up the other forums means that all people can share thier experience of what it means to be in a long term relationship, looking for a partners, life trials and experiences without worry of condemnation or judgement, then I welcome that. I would like to know more about all the way people walk in Christianity (and non-Christians). But it often feels like if I am not: married to a guy, have and/or want children, feel strongly that more women should dress modestly, feel that people are going to hell and Christians solve all thier problems by going to Christ then I am not really all that welcome.

I have to admit that I want to bust open the forums a bit, get people talking openly about real things, things Christians can't really bring up over coffee after church: Apathy, frustrations, topics on suicide, seperations, alienated children, modern culture, non-traditional couples, non-traditional roles or cultures, hopes, previous experiences, childhood abuse, medical abnormalities, etc, etc.

This is the stuff I can talk about at work for instance the other day we talked about: Britney Spears, when you are just too depressed to leave the house, absent fathers, being bullied at school, how to find someone rich to marry and dressing goth..is it cool or not? It wasn't like "I'm right and you're wrong" but more like, this is what happened to me. Can we do that with sexuality too?

[Icystwolf]

It's still not that easy.

Example: I believe ice cream is a sin. ( ice cream used to avoid debate on any subject picked)

well then you get the question of why and desired proof from the opposition.

you can reply with because God said so, that will only lead to further problems because you are implying that if someoen doesn't agree with you they are questioning God, very dangerous territory.

you can reply with
chocolate 4:54 ( again made up to avoid debate)

well even if you view is shared by others, it's still just your view, doesn't make it fact. It's like forcing others to have your opinion.
A comment or even an opinion with proof, doesn't mean it becomes a fact. The proof only makes the icecream easier to swallow, that is, it allows people understand the other person, pay respects and leaves everyone else room to comment. The proof doesn't need to be large, but it's there to open up space for people at least feel a sense of direction of where your opinion comes from.

Of course, I understand there are those who'se opinions are personal and may produce emotional pains when discussed, thats acceptable as long as we move around it or stop at it when it becomes too much of a problem to continue.


there needs to be some room for others to have their beliefs even they are as wild as say a Jewish carpenter being the son of God, strange things happen.
The comment with proof, isn't for all forums, only just for the forums that are setup for informal debates. In a debate on theology, their person beliefs can be expressed, but if they don't know where they got it from, ie a book they read or the pastor at church....ie no reference....

More likely you'd see that they go head on, in huge arguments that to me sounds a bit ignorant.

I would like to watch informal debates, to be well referenced from debaters and well proved out in their thoughts....it's a bit harder, but it's more rewarding...and it certainly makes it much easier for me to read.

I hate going through posts that are not concise, and are just plain arguments that have no backbone structure to it.

[Durelen]

I have to admit that I want to bust open the forums a bit, get people talking openly about real things, things Christians can't really bring up over coffee after church: Apathy, frustrations, topics on suicide, seperations, alienated children, modern culture, non-traditional couples, non-traditional roles or cultures, hopes, previous experiences, childhood abuse, medical abnormalities, etc, etc.
Hmmm… I see it the other way. Such subjects can be and are talked about in a meaningful way but forums often just loose too much of the translation of actual content and meaning of the discussion. I only saw the forum as just another debate forum here so some people can argue with one another from behind the keyboard. Oh and it was an active forum for sure, of course. I’m not saying that everyone was in the wrong of course, I’m sure many positive things came about from the existence of that forum.

[Neenie]

I have to admit that I want to bust open the forums a bit, get people talking openly about real things, things Christians can't really bring up over coffee after church: Apathy, frustrations, topics on suicide, seperations, alienated children, modern culture, non-traditional couples, non-traditional roles or cultures, hopes, previous experiences, childhood abuse, medical abnormalities, etc, etc.



I think it's a good idea for Christians to discuss God and sexuality together, But it isn’t going to happen.

[Christi]

I think it's a good idea for Christians to discuss God and sexuality together, But it isn’t going to happen.
Lol....why does the old saying about "You can teach a pig to dance, but...." come to mind here?
Love, Christi (whose cloven hooves danced deep in the slop a time or two.;) )

[Oblivious]

Well that's kind of a bummer - it was a good read! I do see your point and respect the decision that was made to remove it.

[La Bonita Zorilla]

A comment or even an opinion with proof, doesn't mean it becomes a fact.
Then why bother? To me if something is said to have "proof" that means it is a "fact" but I leave the wrangling on that to you more esoteric thinkers.

I understand your position, IC, and it sounds like you want high school debates. I'd be against that-life is not high school debates! What we all need to do is embrace the wondrous anarchy of the internet rather than resist it! Resistance is futile anyhow.

[Cosmic Charlie]

It your forum Erwin, you can do with it what you will.

But you can't make people stay here.