Christ's Dress Code? [Archive]

feo

6th September 2004, 04:48 PM

I visited a different Orthodox church (for my 3rd service). I started opening the door to the sanctuary... and an older man grabbed my shoulder- and asked if he could talk to me for a moment.

He took me into a small room, looked at me- and said, "I'm afraid you're not allowed in there dressed like that." I looked down. I was wearing kahki shorts, a white undershirt, and a beautiful red polo. My hear was neatly combed, I was clean shaven, and I smelled good. I was confused so I asked, "Excuse me?" And he said "You have on shorts. Thats not allowed in there."

So I gave him a funny look. And started to walk out. He then proceeded to say, "Egh actually you can go in... you just have to sit in the very back corner." I explained to him that I did not want to attend service if I was breaking rules. He said it was fine.

The irony of the situation, was that as I noticed the girls attire- they had on skirts either knee level, or even higher. I understand to ... want to stay conservative, but why does this only apply to the men? Also. I chuckled to myself. The guy saying my attire was not appropriate looked like a bum. He had on a white *****, very wrinkled, messed up hair, and dirty shoes.

If God actually cared about the outward appearance of ourselfs, I'm positive I would've been judged fashionably better than the guy who told me I was not suitable.

In my opinion, the gentlement should've helped me with the Divine Litergy... instead of throwing me in a corner.

Does the Orthodox church generally turn people away by how they look?

Reader Nilus

6th September 2004, 04:51 PM

I have seen members told to go home and change if they came in shorts. We do not encourge the worship to become a place of temptation, in this case lust.
Jeff the Finn

feo

6th September 2004, 04:53 PM

I have seen members told to go home and change if they came in shorts. We do not encourge the worship to become a place of temptation, in this case lust.
Jeff the Finn

Mens shorts do not show much leg.

Especially compared with the amount of leg that those little skirts showed off- that the girls were wearing. If thats actually the reason: then it seems like a very big double standard to me.

Orthodox Andrew

6th September 2004, 04:53 PM

Every Church in Greece that was in highly tourist popultated areas had signs that asked men not to wear shorts in the Church. However, men were going in and out with shorts. The Preists would even see them and not say anything. So I guess it's not usual practice to take people aside.

Reader Nilus

6th September 2004, 04:55 PM

We meet the LORD OF LORDS at the Eucharist, and I would ask you, if you were invited to a White House dinner, if you would show up in a polo shirt and shorts?
Jeff the Finn

feo

6th September 2004, 04:58 PM

We meet the LORD OF LORDS at the Eucharist, and I would ask you, if you were invited to a White House dinner, if you would show up in a polo shirt and shorts?
Jeff the Finn

Luckily, the LORD I worship looks at our insides, not on our outsides. I would be sure that my heart was clothed with love.

I know this sounds kinda stupid, but I don't like seperate my "church" dress, and my "not church" dress. I act... and dress... the same way in and out of church. I'm not going to be fake about it.

There was nothing "lustful" about the way I looked, nor do I think I looked "bad". I just... sorta think, that these type of things shouldnt really matter that much.

If someone came in, who was not Christian- and was asked to leave because he was wearing shorts... I find that to be very disturbing.

Reader Nilus

6th September 2004, 05:08 PM

In the early days, non-Christians were not even allowed in for the Eucharist. The Divine Liturgy is not an evangelistic meeting at all, but a work of the faithful.
Jeff the Finn

Oblio

6th September 2004, 05:10 PM

One of the tenents of the Orthodox faith is that you cannot separate the physical from the spiritual. There is some connection with how we worship in praxis (and that includes our dress) and our spiritual selves. We do not believe that one should come to communal worship dressed like a surfer refugee megachurchgoer.

That being said, I believe that the usher/door keeper erred in his actions. It would have been proper to greet you, help you, and since you were obviously a visitor, gently explain the proper dress and why it was proper, probably after the service was over. I agree with your point about the short skirts on women, they are very distracting (to men) and should receive the same prohibition as shorts on men.

feo

6th September 2004, 05:12 PM

In the early days, non-Christians were not even allowed in for the Eucharist. The Divine Liturgy is not an evangelistic meeting at all, but a work of the faithful.
Jeff the Finn

You wanna restrict the Eucharist to just church members is fine, but everyone deserves to hear what is said during and after the Divine Liturgy. If such a service was not meant for Christians, then perhaps the Priest should not be welcoming the guests afterwards.

Reader Nilus

6th September 2004, 05:17 PM

Oblio

6th September 2004, 05:20 PM

Jeff was making a point as to the purpose of the Divine Liturgy. Outside of monasteries, all are welcome to experience the entire Liturgy with the exception of participation in the Holy Mysteries. Even in monasteries, non-Orthodox are usually allowed to remain in the exonarthex during the service. Entrance was resrticted in the early Church because of the severe persecution and the threat of spies that would expose the faithful to their persecutors.

Alfred M

6th September 2004, 05:21 PM

The only way I can look at this issue is that throughout scripture we are asked to bring the best we have unto the Lord. When that is applied to ourselves, we should at least give some serious thought as to how we present ourselves unto God when we worship Him. If the "best" you have is khaki shorts and a polo shirt then that is what you should wear...if you have "better" then give this some more thought.

It is difficult to take issue with this situation since it seems as if there are two people who are thinking of "fashion" more than the worship of our Lord. The elderly man at the church was thinking in terms of 'rules' of appearance and you, my young friend, are just as adament in your own personal thinking. Maybe some area for improvement on both sides? Remember that Cain brought to God only what Cain wanted to bring and thought it perfectly alright in his own mind.

If you were there to worship...apparently you would have been allowed. Where you sat should not have made a difference. If the others were in error for their actions, this should have no consequence to your personal worship. I only ask that you be very sure of your motive in this type of "issue" for the protection of your own heart.

Again, I hope I have not stepped out of line with my expressions.

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred, lowliest of sinners.

countrymousenc

6th September 2004, 05:28 PM

Feo, I agree with you that what you witnessed was a double standard. Jeff is right about how we should present ourselves, and that's important, but we ought to be consistent about it. Please know that being Orthodox does always guarantee loving behavior, unfortunately. Even so, the fulness of truth is to be found in the teaching and worship of the Orthodox Church.

I honestly hope that there will be more and more visitors like you who will provide some honest feedback.

I am reminded of a passage in one of the Gospels in which Jesus commented about the Pharasees' practice of tithing mint and cumin, etc., while ignoring weightier matters of the Law. Then He said that the Pharisees should have tithed the herbs, but also should have done the other things. You know, I've never heard a sermon that included at least a paragraph about Jesus' commendation about their tithing of the herbs. Jesus didn't throw out the baby with the bath water, whereas we tend to do it all the time!

Just think about it. :)

Orthosdoxa

6th September 2004, 07:01 PM

That being said, I believe that the usher/door keeper erred in his actions. It would have been proper to greet you, help you, and since you were obviously a visitor, gently explain the proper dress and why it was proper, probably after the service was over. I agree with your point about the short skirts on women, they are very distracting (to men) and should receive the same prohibition as shorts on men.
I think this best sums it up. He absolutely should not have asked you to leave, but gently pointed out later that we are very formal when we enter into God's house and His presence, so no shorts. And it IS a double standard with gals wearing short skirts - I haven't seen too much of it, but what I have seen bothered me. The priest at my last parish did say something about it at some point, but those young ladies should have better sense than that in the first place. He has bigger fish to fry than to have to get after them.

Please don't let this discourage you from seeking Christ's Church. The usher meant well, but should have thought twice about his approach. Perhaps it had become a problem at that particular parish and they were trying to crack down on it, who knows.

LK

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

6th September 2004, 07:13 PM

I agree with LK and Oblio. If the usher wanted to say something about your clothes, it should've been done after the service. I think there should be a little more understanding given to visitors who can't be expected to know the dress code. I have only seen one man, who was a visitor, wear shorts to church. I'm pretty sure no one said anything to him about it. However, there has been quite a problem with teenage girls wearing ultra mini skirts to church. What are their parents thinking?!? Fr. even addressed the issue in last months news letter, but I've noticed that the girls are pretty much still wearing the short skirts. I feel bad for the priest. I'm sure he'd like to wring the necks of a few parents at this point (I know I would ;) ).

MariaRegina

6th September 2004, 07:57 PM

With teenage girls, it's a serious problem.

They want to dress mod or they just won't go to church.

So, the parents and the priest have to consider what's best. Will their dress cause scandal or will their lack of attendance cause more scandal?

Sadly, I've known some high society ladies who buy this sort of clothing for their daughters and tell the priest (boldly) that if the priest says something about it, then they will take their money to another church who will not say anything. This blackmailing bothers me. Yet it happens in churches.

Let's pray that we all may be saved.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

xenia

6th September 2004, 09:00 PM

Ok, there's a couple of different things going on here.

The first thing that visitors to Orthodox churches must understand is that we are not modern or casual. The very ancientness and dignity that attracts visitors in the first place is the very ancientness and dignity that prohibits a casual attitude in dress and behavior. How did churches devolve from the traditional beauty of an Orthodox Church to the barn-like unadorned building filled with people in hawaiian shirts and flip flops? By saying century after century "These vestements don't matter" "These old hymns don't matter" "These icons don't matter" "These fasts don't matter" "These prayers don't matter" and "The Liturgy doesn't matter." One by one these precious things were discarded because some free thinker thought they were meaningless or legalistic or dry or boring or old fashioned or irrelevent. Because gosh, doesn't God see what's in my heart? Why should these things matter? God sees my heart and he knows what a swell person I am inside. (No offense intended to the OP) So folks, if you are going to insist on having it your way, maybe the Orthodox church isn't for you.

A second issue here is the double-standard shown at this church. Why are women allowed to dress in skimpy clothing? Beats me. Feo has a real point here. Do I fault the doorkeeper/candle salesman/usher guy? Naw. He was just trying to do his job, although he was not being even-handed. There's a cathedral that I love in San Francisco that offers wrap-around skirts for women to wear over their pants or mini-skirts. I wasn't gonna get in on my first visit without one. So what? If you want to participate in the Orthodox experience you have to cooperate with them. Or, you could visit the Mega-church down the street where you can wear anything you want. <-- Note that: Anything YOU WANT. There's lots of churches out there catering to what people want.

But Feo, I hope you can forgive the awkwardness of the doorkeeper, put on some Dockers, and give that church another try. And God bless you! I know the Orthodox world can seem alien sometimes. It's worth it. :)

Love, Xenia

feo

6th September 2004, 09:08 PM

There is a proverb that says, "When in Rome do as the Romans do." Not all Orthodox even hear most of the Liturgy as the prayers are said quietly by the priest behind the Royal Doors. Everyone deserves? deserves what? I deserve hell fire and nothing more

Yupz, we do deserve nothing. That does not matter; as Christ gave us the best gift in the world regardless of WHAT we deserve.

I think you mis understand me. Let me try to make my point a bit more clear. I have NO problem dressing up. I love dressing up and looking nice! I'm a bit metrosexual when it comes to clothing, and I have no shame in that.

My problem is more on how the guy handled the situation; his word choice; and the double standards that existed in that church. The double standards, imho: are much more offensive than any form of shorts I was wearing, this I can assure you.

The only way I can look at this issue is that throughout scripture we are asked to bring the best we have unto the Lord. When that is applied to ourselves, we should at least give some serious thought as to how we present ourselves unto God when we worship Him. If the "best" you have is khaki shorts and a polo shirt then that is what you should wear...if you have "better" then give this some more thought.

But thats the thing: the BEST I have to offer has nothing to do with my clothing- it has to do with my feelings, my actions, and how I live out Gods Word. It was about 117 F (47 C) outside, and I had a few more trips to make after church. I refuse to dress and act a certain way on "church" days. It felt extremely warm to me outside, so I dressed as best as possible despite the conditions. I refuse to "play" the church game, and pretend to be different on a certain day. egh: okay enough with that rant, I think I'm just repeating myself.

If you were there to worship...apparently you would have been allowed. Where you sat should not have made a difference. If the others were in error for their actions, this should have no consequence to your personal worship. I only ask that you be very sure of your motive in this type of "issue" for the protection of your own heart.

I was still allowed to worship? hehehe. If I was a non Christian guest, visiting the church - I can promise you those statements would've made a very big difference; despite what you may think.

What do you mean about my "motives"?

=============================================

I apologize if I sound like a whiney jerk. Let me try to clarify my position on why this bothers me. All through my life, I have seen the church (I'm not just picking on the Orthodox Church, I see this happen everywhere; including my friends) where... the followers of Christ- will do their best at building a wall that seperates the religious people, and the non religious people.

Look at the time, when Jesus walked the earth. The religious leaders then had this huge wall built; that seperated themselves from everyone else.

I even saw it with my close friends at a party my friend was having. She invited her Christian friends... and her non religious friends. None of the Christians would associate or even speak to the others- and when I'd talk to the non religious people, they said statements like, "Man, this is strange. I feel as if theres two groups... the 'sinners' and the 'religious people'".

WHY this bothers me, is that when I study Christ's ministry here on earth, Jesus did EVERYTHING possible to tear down the walls that seperated the two groups: and I firmly believe its out responsibility to do the same.

When I was told that I was not allowed: I felt as if another block was added to the wall. Christs love is for everyone: I don't care if you're wearnig shorts... or all black with chains. God knows our hearts; and how much we're searching, and thats all that matters

Michael the Iconographer

6th September 2004, 09:20 PM

feo

6th September 2004, 09:36 PM

A second issue here is the double-standard shown at this church. Why are women allowed to dress in skimpy clothing? Beats me. Feo has a real point here. Do I fault the doorkeeper/candle salesman/usher guy? Naw. He was just trying to do his job, although he was not being even-handed.

This sounds kinda harsh; but I disagree- I DO fault the usher guy; simply by how he did handled the situation.

When Christ was cruising around, his disciples would try to stop some people from visiting with Him... such as children; for example. Christ would say "Allow them to come here"- imo: I think their attire was the last thing on Christ's mind at the time.

*shrugs* but what do I know? :sigh:

feo

6th September 2004, 09:45 PM

Or, you could visit the Mega-church down the street where you can wear anything you want. <-- Note that: Anything YOU WANT. There's lots of churches out there catering to what people want.

But Feo, I hope you can forgive the awkwardness of the doorkeeper, put on some Dockers, and give that church another try. And God bless you! I know the Orthodox world can seem alien sometimes. It's worth it. :)

Its not so much that I wear these things because I want to wear them, its more along the line... that I personally have not heard God tell me I should dress a certain way; besides looking nice and presentable. Currently, I feel as if God is not concerned with my attire.

I do forgive the doorkeeper, and I WILL be attending more Orthodox services...

... its just statements like, "you're not allowed in there with shorts" makes me cringe :( I'm just being honest here.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

6th September 2004, 09:47 PM

Perhaps we should also look at how Christ Himself worshipped in the temple. He could not have entered or prayed in the temple without wearing traditional Jewish dress, along with a head covering that HAD to be used during prayer. If He wanted to make a strong point about how it doesn't matter what anyone wears, He could've not worn the prayer shawl and did a little sermon on how what we wear shouldn't matter.

Our body, and how we present it to others, DOES matter. Yes, Christ is most concerned with our heart, but our body and the way we adorn it REFLECTS our heart. This is not about "playing" church, or wearing expensive/fancy clothes. It's about respect for God's holy temple. This may seem off topic, but let me ask you this, Feo: If you had a very important job interview, would you show up in shorts because it was hot outside? I suspect that if you really wanted the job, you would dress in appropriate business attire. Now, what does your outfit reveal to your interviewer? It reveals that you respect his/her authority and that you desire to make a good impression. In the Church setting, it is not about making a big impression on other people. It's about respect for God. Does this make any sense?

***EDIT*** Just wanted to add that when a person goes for a job interview and they are not dressed appropriately, the interviewer knows up front that the person is not serious about the job and will probably have little respect for company rules/policies (because they are showing that they want to be unconventional and do things their own way). I've taught interviewing skills to teens before. I don't want to stray off topic, but I think this analogy is relevant to how we present ourselves to others and to God.

xenia

6th September 2004, 09:47 PM

I personally have not heard God tell me I should dress a certain way;

God may not tell you personally, he may be using the church to tell you.

Love, Xenia

Matrona

6th September 2004, 09:55 PM

Perhaps we should all be careful when judging people who seemed to have dressed without regard for the presence of their King. It may be the best clothing they own. And those you classify as impious for the way they are dressed, may enter the Kingdom of God in front of you.

If I'd been turned away at the door for the fact that I was wearing jeans on my first visit to an Orthodox church two years ago, I would not be Orthodox today. It was literally the best I had at the time. I didn't have a single skirt or dress with me at school so I put on a solid-colored t-shirt and jeans, neither of which was worn out or full of holes. Jeans and t-shirts show a lot less skin than most dresses do today. And it was my first visit to any church in six years. I was completely confused about God, Jesus Christ, the Church, and everything, and searching for answers in this "Holy Apostles Orthodox Church." How do any of you think I would have felt if someone had told me I wasn't dressed well enough to stand in their presence?

Michael the Iconographer

6th September 2004, 09:59 PM

xenia

6th September 2004, 10:03 PM

Matrona, you wore your best. God knew this. Your instincts were correct.

-Love, Xenia

Reader Nilus

6th September 2004, 10:03 PM

There is a parable about garments in the Gospel, and those without the proper garment were thrown out. I would add the usher did his job, and in Orthodox understanding that was the will of the Lord. When coming to Orthodoxy we accept the Church, and conform to her, not the other way around. Most of us hung around the outer edges of the Church for some time before making the choice to enter in. I was on the fringes of Orthodoxy 20+ years before getting serious about her. I was a clergyman, Reader, when I was greeted like that at a major feast, you get over it. One thing is that Orthodoxy does not cater to the cult of the individual, and we are not PC when it comes to American standards.
Jeff the Finn

xenia

6th September 2004, 10:10 PM

feo

6th September 2004, 10:11 PM

There is a parable about garments in the Gospel, and those without the proper garment were thrown out.

Take that literally, and Matrona wouldnt be Orthodox today.

feo

6th September 2004, 10:14 PM

And is this dress code pretty standard? I believe I was wearing shorts the first Orthodox service I attended (at a dif church) yet no one told me to go away... whats funny about it... was no one else there was wearing a small skirt.

Interesting. I dont believe guests should be "expected" to know the rules, nor do I believe they should be asked to leave.

Orthosdoxa

6th September 2004, 10:16 PM

Feo-

I understand what you are saying here. I really do. But let's try to look at the big picture. Christ telling the disciples that the children were not a nuisance, that they should be allowed to approach, is a little different than what we're talking about here, which is a STANDARD.

We can argue all day about whether or not the guy handled it right. I don't think he did, I think it should have been addressed AFTERWARDS, and in a gentler manner. But that doesn't matter now, unless you want to let a wounded ego get in the way of your ferver for Christ, which I don't think will happen. You now know that we see worship as something very serious, something that should be within a framework of certain standards. You didn't know before, now you do. And that's okay that you didn't know - no one thought to tell you, and you didn't think to ask. No harm done.

But now, let us leave this instance behind and move on.

Do you want a church where anything goes, where plunging necklines and skintight miniskirts and girls shaking their booty to "worship" music happens, while guys around them openly drool? (I've seen this.) I'm sure you're saying NO! (or at least you'd better be! ;) ) So what is it that you want? You want a STANDARD. The same thing as we want. We want the same thing, can you see this? And the Church in Her wisdom happens to have set the standard at a particular place, maybe not the place where Feo or Anonykat think the standard should be, but then again, the Church does not ask for our opinion. The Church in Her wisdom has handed many things down to us for the good of our salvation. One is the opportunity for humility and obedience. Such as conforming to a dress code in order to give Christ the proper reverence He deserves. There has to be a standard set SOMEWHERE, otherwise things go further and further downhill, to the lowest common denominator. Just observe this in the behaviour of any child whose parents set no limits. Or in some churches with no framework for anything other than their own whims or opinions. The bar has to be set SOMEWHERE.

Then again, this usually is never made THAT much of an issue of. I've seen people show up as inquirers VERY casually dressed, and no one ever says anything, and the more they grew into the Orthodox faith, the more THEY chose to dress up and be more formal. I wish that this hadn't gotten so blown out of proportion here, because now something that's always seemed quite small to me has gotten way out of hand.

Just a comment on tearing down walls: Absolutely. We DO need to do that. But clothing is not a wall. A visitor who is inappropriately attired should be welcomed in with love and open arms, and depending on HOW inappropriate, something should be said afterwards, like, "We are so glad you're here and hope you continue to explore the Orthodox faith. Just so you know, though, most people here don't wear leather bikinis to church. Since we are in the presence of the Kingdom of God, we like to dress appropriately. I have a blue dress that I bet would fit you just great..."

Someone who wants to continue to be inappropriate just to prove they can - the Orthodox Church is probably not the place for them. She calls us to lay aside our pride and self-will. She is not Burger King. We don't get to have it our way. And I tell you what, I would NEVER want to go back to having everything my way, ever again.

Of course shorts are not as inappropriate as some things could be. But again, it's about setting that bar SOMEWHERE - and it's about us being humble enough to obey.

(Take this from a gal who HATES wearing pantyhose and whose big basketball like head looks a little odd under a head scarf. But I dress up because the Church says it's best, because it puts me in the mindset of, "Ok, something's different right now than when I wearing a T shirt, jeans, and flip flops", and, when I approach to receive the dread Mysteries, the most holy Body and Blood of our Lord - I am offering myself to Him, pitiful an offering as that is. But it's all I've got, and I want to make it the best I can.)

I implore you to let this go, despite the fact that it may have been a little embarrassing for you. Christ's Church is perfect, the people in it are not always perfect. (*Kat pauses to look in the mirror*) Chalk it up to having learned something in maybe a little bit of an ouchy way, forgive the door dude, and leave it behind.

LK

Reader Nilus

6th September 2004, 10:17 PM

But then again Matrona wore all she had, and the Holy Spirit knew that so the usher would not have thrown her out.
Jeff the Finn

xenia

6th September 2004, 10:18 PM

Hello Feo, the Greeks are more lenient and the Russians are stricter, in my limited experience. At the Russian cathedral I attended, there was a sign on the door explaining the dress code, plus the aforementioned wrap-around skirt was offered to me so I could enter in. I had on a goofy head-covering so I stayed near the back, feeling faintly foolish in my make-shift attire. But it was worth it anyway!

I see you are from Arizona? I can understand your surprise at the no-shorts rule. But there you have it!

-Xenia

Matrona

6th September 2004, 10:23 PM

There is a parable about garments in the Gospel, and those without the proper garment were thrown out.
When I think of this parable, I remember the Bridegroom Exapostilarion.

"I see Thy Bridal Chamber adorned, O my Savior, and I have no wedding garment that I may enter therein. O Giver of Light, make radiant the vesture of my soul and save me."

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

6th September 2004, 10:24 PM

I would like to say this, before I manage to offend anyone else.

It's one thing to look in your closest and pick out the most God-honoring outfit you have, even if it's jeans and a T-shirt. This truly is a case where God looks on the heart and not on outward appearance. Doorkeepers need to show sensitivity, somehow. I am VERY GLAD Matrona was let in!

It's another thing entirely to say this: Yeah, I have some nice clothes, but I don't want to wear them to church. I'm a casual kind of a person, and I think I should dress any way that suits me. That ol' Orthodox Church is just going to have to accept me the way I am cuz I just gotta be me!

Another thing would be to dress up as richly as you can, to show off. I think we would all agree that's missing the point.

A cheap Goodwill skirt and top/blouse/shirt- what's the problem? It's what I wear to church most of the time.

Love, Xenia
I agree 1000% with this!!! Matrona, I certainly wouldn't have wanted you to be told to leave the service for not being dressed well enough! I can relate to your situation. I have a few pairs of nice dress pants, but only a couple skirts and 1 or 2 dresses. I was trying to say the same thing Xenia just said. If you don't own nice clothes, you should still be able to attend services provided you are not indecent. But it is a different ballgame when you look in your closet, reach past the dress pants and grab some shorts because you feel like wearing them instead of the nice pants. See what I mean? Heavens sake, if a person is poor or simply doesn't own the standard "Orthodox" attire for whatever reason, they should not be turned away for it!

xenia

6th September 2004, 10:29 PM

Hey Feo, I am wondering. Was English the usher-person's first language? I only say this because I was working at our church's festival all day today with a wonderful lady from Bulgaria who's interpretation of the English language was occassionally brusque. She was kind of "You Xenia, do this now" and it took me a while to realize that was how her English came out. She didn't mean to be brusque, I don't think. After a while I came to enjoy her company immensely.

Love, Xenia

katherine2001

6th September 2004, 10:31 PM

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

6th September 2004, 10:41 PM

OCA churches don't tend to be all that strict. I tend to wear pants to Vespers (they'are nice pants) and wear dresses to Vespers. I wear a dress/longish skirt to liturgy. Very few women wear headcoverings in the churches I've been too (OCA, Serbian, and Greek). However, if I was going to go to a church that expected women to wear dresses/skirts to all services and a headcovering, I would do it (though I only have about 3 dresses and people would get awfully sick of seeing me in them because I really don't have the money to buy more).This is true of the OCA parish where I attend. There is very little head covering, and it is not uncommon for women to wear dress pants to Liturgy. Actually, I was kind of wondering why dresses are preferred over dress pants? For me, when I venerate icons, I bow three times. Even if my dress/skirt is long, this makes me a bit nervous (I can just hear my mom telling me as a child not to bend forward while wearing a skirt/dress ;) ). I feel "safer" doing this in pants. Also, I can't imagine trying to do prostrations in a dress. Why is a dress considered more conservative?

katherine2001

6th September 2004, 10:48 PM

Also, I have a problem with how infringements are handled sometimes. I don't think things should be pointed out in public, and I don't like people being handed wrap-around skirts and headcoverings if they come dressed in something different. I think that is humiliating people. Personally, I probably wouldn't go to that church again. I feel strongly about this because I've known people who were poor and were wearing the best that they had. Even when I was going to a fundy Baptist church, they were more than willing to have one woman come to services in pants because she couldn't afford to buy dresses. Her husband was out of work and they had 3 little girls. Every penny they had went towards feeding, housing, and clothing their children. When money is extremely tight, sometimes people really can't afford even two or three dollars to buy a skirt at Goodwill. Yes, people should dress in the best they have, but sometimes we just assume that of course, these people must have better clothes that they could be wearing. But the fact is that we don't know. I remember on one of my other lists, someone asking what was appropriate to wear to services (he and his family were thinking about attending). People stressed wearing a longer skirt, etc. Well, it turned out this man was out of work and his wife and daughthers didn't have anything like that so he guessed that they wouldn't be attending. So I do think that we need to be careful on this issue.

Also, I believe that if anyone is going to take up the subject with the person it should be the priest or someone else he delegates to do it. Other churches will just post something on the bulletin board about what is not appropriate, especially during the summer.

katherine2001

6th September 2004, 10:52 PM

alexeeah

6th September 2004, 11:03 PM

WHY this bothers me, is that when I study Christ's ministry here on earth, Jesus did EVERYTHING possible to tear down the walls that seperated the two groups: and I firmly believe its out responsibility to do the same.

When I was told that I was not allowed: I felt as if another block was added to the wall. Christs love is for everyone: I don't care if you're wearnig shorts... or all black with chains. God knows our hearts; and how much we're searching, and thats all that matters
excellent post!! I agree. The other day i heard of a man out west who was pumping some gas.....he heard a pack of bikers rolling up and was terrified that they were gonna come and slash his tires or spit on him or something else because of all teh christian bumper stickers on his car anyway so he had his back turned to the pack as they got off their bikes and went in to the store all the sudden he heard someone yell "Hallelujah!!" he turned around only to see that the back of each of the bikers jackets said "Bikers For JEsus!!" After talking to these men he found that they wore their leathers all the time even to church.

We come to God how we are and he will tell us what to change not the elders of the church!!

feo

6th September 2004, 11:09 PM

First and foremost: let me try to stress to you guys- I'm not purposely trying to be a jerk about this dress thing. Quite honestly, The Orthodox Church is my favorite denomination, and I love everything about it. I feel a strong calling to attend Orthodox services... and some of it, is a bit uncomfy for me. Especially with my weird mix of Catholic/Protestant background. I'm not trying to pick on you guys, and I apologize if some of the things I had said before came out wrong. I'm very blunt; and have always struggled with tactfulness. The only reason I'm making this into a big deal- is because of HOW interested I am of the church...

hehe looking back on my past, its amazing how ironic life can be, and how God works. I remember in my later years; at a Catholic church- telling myself I would never be a part of a traditional/legalistic service.

And then I remember being at a protestant church; during missionary night- and telling myself that I'd never do anything that stupid.

Then. For some reason: I'm interested in the Orhtodox Church AND Missions. Strange huh?

==================================

Anonykat- I agree with you on everything except for the following:

But clothing is not a wall.

Only because... the time during service- when I started to really think about things: was when everyone was given the opportunity to shake hands with those around 'em. I was in the very back corner. Not a very popular place to be. And I wasn't able to smile at anyone. I'm a very social person, and I took this personally. I was not allowed to shake hands with anyone, because my "shorts" would offend someone. This, to me, is a huge block of seperation.

Hey Feo, I am wondering. Was English the usher-person's first language?

Ummm, he knew enough English... that if he wanted to sit by me; and help me with the Liturgy: it would've been very possible. One thing I learned in the Middle East: was that Christ can do wonders at working around the languege barrier.

I see you are from Arizona? I can understand your surprise at the no-shorts rule. But there you have it!

This is where I'm going to drop the complaining and move on. And this is where I really need your help. I agree: that we should offer the best to Christ- both inside and OUT. But one thing I cannot do, is have "church" clothes. I know it sounds silly, but if I'm going to offer the best I have to God- its going to be on the other six days of the week as well. I'm not going to do something halfway. If the church wants me to wear pants, I'm going to present myself in pants during the week.

The only reason I'm sorta over-reacting about this... is because before I was a Christian- I was very... unsatisfied on how so called Christians acted. They would dress up nice, go to church... then during school: would act/look a completely different way.

When I chose to follow Christ: I promised him that I would be very real about it. And things like... me looking "different" on a certain day, feels very "fake" to me. (is any of this making sense??)

And I'm not sure I can throw away all my shorts and flip-flops.

:sigh: I wish someone was from Arizona... or a desert here, who could offer me some advice about their service.

alexeeah

6th September 2004, 11:12 PM

Personally, I think we should wear our best clothing, but, realize that some people may not have that type of clothing. We should welcome them into the church anyway. God would rather have them in church than to not come because they don't have the right clothing and don't have the money to buy the clothing. If we're going to push the dress code to that extent, are we going to be willing to pitch in and buy the correct clothing for those who have to make a choice between buying clothing and having food and a roof over their heads? Well you are right about that one!! I know a woman that thought I was absurd for shopping at a local department store adn buying a suit on sale for 15$$ that was orignally 68$ She proceeded to tell me that i should be shopping at a more expensive store buying the 300$ suits for 50$ on clearance.........I told her that if i could afford to buy the suits for 50$ i wouldn't wait till they went on clearance at my store!!! She thought that I should be dressing like her because I am on the worhisp team adn I shouldn't be shopping at discount stores..........the thing she didn't understand was that that was the very first thing that I have bought for myself in a long time........I never had new clothes as a kid or a teen in fact I don't remember havign anythign but hand-me-downs my whole life so that shopping experience was great for me It was one of the best times in my life!!! I know what it mean sto only have jeans to wear to church ........God accepts what you have no matter who you are.......if you only have rags he still accepts you but if you wear armani suits and you're heart isnt' right you'd better watchout!!

katherine2001

6th September 2004, 11:17 PM

God speaks through the hierarchs of the Church, and Paul says in Hebrews 13:17: "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." Priests and hiearchs do have a right to have authority over us. God has given them that authority and are accountable to God for us. The Orthodox Church believes that the hiearchs and priests are given the responsibility to shepherd the people that God has put in their care and will have to give an account to God for the people who were put under his care. Personally, it never ceases to astonish me how loving bishops and priests are. They set a great example for the rest of us.

We do owe it to God to wear the best we have. He is the King of Kings--doesn't He deserve to be given the best of what we are and what we have?

Matrona

6th September 2004, 11:18 PM

Well you are right about that one!! I know a woman that thought I was absurd for shopping at a local department store adn buying a suit on sale for 15$$ that was orignally 68$ She proceeded to tell me that i should be shopping at a more expensive store buying the 300$ suits for 50$ on clearance.........
God bless you, alexeeah. :)

By the way, welcome to TAW. :wave:

xenia

6th September 2004, 11:21 PM

We come to God how we are and he will tell us what to change not the elders of the church!!

What are elders for then, if not to instruct the faithful?

-Xenia

xenia

6th September 2004, 11:26 PM

xenia

6th September 2004, 11:34 PM

Hi Alexeeah, welcome to TAW

.......if you only have rags he still accepts you but if you wear armani suits and you're heart isnt' right you'd better watchout!!

You know this is not exactly what we are debating here, don't you? :)

-Xenia

feo

6th September 2004, 11:40 PM

Hey Feo, in your public profile there's a picture- is it of you? (If so, you are certainly not "feo." :) ) You look like you are probably not wearing shorts with that nice shirt and jacket. Why not wear that outfit to church, minus the jacket on hot day?

I have, my 2nd Orthodox service. I don't mind dressing up.

But if we are to wear only the best for God- shouldnt that be applied to the other days of the week?

Should I throw away all my shorts? I'm really confused about this.

.. oh! And yes, that really is me. Not the best picture of me, but me nevertheless ;) And thanks for the compliment.

Orthosdoxa

7th September 2004, 01:01 AM

But if we are to wear only the best for God- shouldnt that be applied to the other days of the week?

Should I throw away all my shorts? I'm really confused about this.

There's a big difference between running to Walmart to buy toilet paper... and solemnly proceeding forth, head bowed, receiving Christ in the Divine Mysteries and offering oneself back to Him.

Frankly, those stupid "belly shirts" and spandex skirts that females are wearing these days SHOULD go in the trash! :mad: They're not suitable for Walmart or anywhere else, ESP. the house of God. Why they think we want to see their belly buttons is beyond me.

But that rant aside, of course decent and modest clothing should not be thrown in the trash, and I think many shorts can be included in that. Might I compare it to those earthen vessels? One for common use, one for a higher purpose.... but both for a purpose. Those khaki shorts and Bart Simpson tee shirts are okay for a night out at Pizza Hut... but God deserves the best we have to give Him, even if that best is just a nice looking suit we picked up at the Goodwill for 10 bucks. And if we can't do even that, God understands when we do the best we can. (Notice I said if we CAN'T, not if we WON'T. If people want to wear trash to church just to prove they can, then they need to fall on their face and repent. If they wear rags because that's all they have, then God bless them.)

LK

CyberSponge

7th September 2004, 01:50 AM

Well, feo, it sounds like you were on time to service, which is more than can be said for most of the Orthodox people I know. Talk about disrespect. I'm proud that you took those steps and adventured out, and I'm also pleased that your faith in the Church is as robust as it is.

All I can guess is that maybe the usher thought you were already Orthodox and therefore should know that the dresscode is usually more formal than semi-street clothes. From your description I think the usher did a disservice to God. Visitors should always be greeted with a friendly smile, and hearty handshake, along with a heavy dose of care and compassion. It's the Christian thing to do. Later comes the guiding and the correction. Unless of course you were making an egregious error, but wearing a nice shirt and shorts is NOT an egregious error.

I started attending my home parish when I was 18, always dressing up for Sunday in slacks, long-sleeved dress shirt, tie, and even a dress jacket during the winter. Most of the people my age were wearing t-shirts, jeans, tennis shoes to church on Sunday. However, what you did does not seem unreasonable. In fact, we've had visitors who came in shorts (non-Orthodox visitors, usually), and no one ever said anything to them, even the old russian women with canes. ;)

Hmm...I haven't been wearing a tie to church that much recently, even though I do have some. Nor have I been wearing a jacket. So people, am I sinning since I'm not "wearing my best." Oh, I also have a nice suit that I save just for interviews in my closet back home. Should I always be wearing that same suit every Sunday? I try not to get it dirty since it's kind of expensive, which would mean I'd want to change into something else every Sunday for fear I'd spill something on it during coffee hour.

Constantine

7th September 2004, 02:50 AM

Sounds like one the elders was having a bad morning in my opinion :scratch:

prodromos

7th September 2004, 02:51 AM

It was about 117 F (47 C) outside, and I had a few more trips to make after church. I refuse to dress and act a certain way on "church" days. It felt extremely warm to me outside, so I dressed as best as possible despite the conditions.
I understand perfectly how you feel but I think I ought to warn you in advance. If you ever get a chance to visit Mount Athos (and most visitors tend to go during Summer) you will be required to wear long trousers all the time regardless of the heat. It may seem like a ridiculous requirement at first, especially for those who are used to wearing shorts in the heat, but trust me, you get used to it and it quickly ceases to be a problem :)

The Church in Her wisdom has handed many things down to us for the good of our salvation. One is the opportunity for humility and obedience.
This is key to spiritual growth! :clap:

ufonium2

7th September 2004, 07:27 AM

feo, a lot of people at my church do just what you are talking about. We wear "business casual" to church, and everywhere else too. If you have to wear it to work (and that's about the lowest level of dress an adult can expect to wear to work unless they work construction or something) five days a week, and you are at church on Saturday night and Sunday morning, that's all seven days right there. So, that's definitely an option.

By the way, if this belly-shirt and tiny skirt trend doesn't end before I have a daughter, I'm moving to Ukraine. I was a teenager during the grunge era, and I was as grungy as the next kid, but at least grunge was modest. I don't think I wore shorts all through high school.

vanshan

7th September 2004, 09:18 AM

I have always been a casual dresser (and was also into the grunge thing)and did find some of the expectations of the Orthodox Church difficult at first, but what put it in perspective for me is what would I wear if I was meeting the President? I would at least wear business casual, so I should do at least the same to go worship Christ. Business casual is not very difficult anyway.

Many men in our parish even wear short-sleeved shirts, which more traditional parishes discourage. I live in Oklahoma and the summers here are hot and muggy, so it would be great to wear sandals and shorts, but that doesn't go along with the whole spirit of reverent worship.

Basil

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

7th September 2004, 11:45 AM

katherine2001

7th September 2004, 12:17 PM

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

7th September 2004, 12:24 PM

GDE, there is nothing wrong with short sleeves. Since many Orthodox churches don't have air conditioning (at least not where I live), a person could faint in the summer if wearing long sleeves. Summers here in Montana can be hot and muggy too, but, since most of the year you don't need air conditioning, few places have it.
Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with it either, but I have heard people say that in some of the more traditional churches it is not acceptable. I was just wondering what the reasoning is behind it.

feo

7th September 2004, 01:06 PM

Hmm...I haven't been wearing a tie to church that much recently, even though I do have some. Nor have I been wearing a jacket. So people, am I sinning since I'm not "wearing my best." Oh, I also have a nice suit that I save just for interviews in my closet back home. Should I always be wearing that same suit every Sunday? I try not to get it dirty since it's kind of expensive, which would mean I'd want to change into something else every Sunday for fear I'd spill something on it during coffee hour.

Hmmm, you bring up some good points. I'm also starting to question WHY nice pants is more pleasing to God than nice shorts. I'm wondering if God even wants me to give my best, as far as attire goes. Is God concerned with my clothing? People definatly were, but I can tell you right here and now that the way the usher spoke to me: God was not speaking through him.

I'm going to meet up with one of the priests hopefully tonight from a local perish, to see what he has to say about the situation.

Thanks guys for all your input :hug:

gzt

7th September 2004, 01:12 PM

I think it's simply more modest, even if short sleeves really aren't immodest. And I think modesty really is the key in this entire discussion rather than the so-called goodness of one's clothing. The nearest monastery to me, for instance, requires pants, long-sleeved shirts, and socks if wearing sandals, and all that plus a head-covering for women [well, long skirt instead of pants, I think]. I hear the associated monastery in Arizona requires the same: http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/VisitorInfo.htm. Parishes are, of course, quite a bit less strict.

Anyways, I think our dress should aim not to distract others, therefore one shouldn't wear the absolute shiniest spiffiest suit one has or Oktoberfest t-shirts. Besides, shorts aren't really appropriate adult attire for an indoor non-informal social event, are they?

countrymousenc

7th September 2004, 01:19 PM

Can someone tell me what is wrong with short sleeves? I understand not wearing sleeveless or spaghetti strap tops or dresses, but what is wrong with showing my forearm? I've never considered elbows to be provacative.....:scratch:

Neither have I. :D

Not meaning to throw fuel on the fire, or anything, but hairy legs don't distract me, either.

I have read (but I doubt that it's accurate) that Christians first began dressing in their best after St. Constantine legalized the Christian Faith, and that he was prone to show up in various parishes for a visit unannounced. I suspect, however, that the truth is that the practice comes from the fact that the first Christians were Jews who were accustomed to dressing in their nicest clothes when they went to the synagogue or the Temple.

feo

7th September 2004, 01:43 PM

I think it's simply more modest, even if short sleeves really aren't immodest. And I think modesty really is the key in this entire discussion rather than the so-called goodness of one's clothing.

I hate to disagree with you on this, but I gotta. If modesty was what it was about, then the girls would be modest. They had on skirts that were knee level (and some higher) and shirts without sleeves. And then men wore t-shirts.

You guys say that t-shirts are "okay" but I put shorts on the same level. To me, t-shirts are nothing more than shorts for the upper half part of your body. Instead of a little arm being shown, you're showing a little leg. If done tastefully, I think that t-shirts and shorts can both be modest.

Also, the "job interview" example keeps being used. You don't go to EVERY job interview the same. You dress up, how you're expected to dress at the job. And quite honestly, not every job is formal. It is not uncommon to goto work in Arizona wearing shorts and a polo shirt.

ufonium2

7th September 2004, 02:09 PM

So, your main beef is that you feel you were singled out? Fair enough. But, surely you must recognize that while you may put shorts on the same level as short sleeves, society doesn't. There are shirts made with short sleeves, meant to be worn at white-collar offices, with ties and everything. There is no shorts equivalent for this. No matter how nice your shorts are, you aren't going to couple them with a tie and wear them to a court appearance or business meeting. Shorts are considered more casual than short sleeves, that's how our society works.

I agree that young women tend to dress less-than-modestly, even at church, and this should be stopped. But, it's not entirely their fault. Next time you are in a department store, go to the Juniors dept. Tell me if there is anything in that department that is appropriate for church, or for modest girls in general. I feel sorry for teenage girls today who don't want to look like rap video rejects; they probably have to make their own clothes.

feo

7th September 2004, 02:35 PM

So, your main beef is that you feel you were singled out?

My main beef was the double standards I witnessed at the churh. My "main beef" was that if it were a non Christian visiting, he would not have felt Christs love. And if that happened, I really wouldnt blame that person

Mary of Bethany

7th September 2004, 04:57 PM

I agree. I've always heard that it's a modesty issue. No one school-age or older should wear shorts. And certainly, the teen-age girls should be required to dress modestly also.

Men are not expected to wear suits in our parish - just to dress modestly. Women can wear pants or dresses - again, modesty is the key. My sons & husband visited with me this past Sunday, and my husband had no dress slacks (not even khakis) that he could wear, and no dress shoes (he gave them all away!) so he wore a decent pair of tan-colored jeans, and boots, with a button-down shirt. It was perfectly acceptable. My younger son got out of the house with a pair of blue jeans and I didn't notice til we got out of the car at church (he did have something better available, in his case), but I wasn't going to make a big deal about it. I figure that everyone knows they are visitors and won't judge them if their clothing isn't quite up to par. I was surprised to see a man in shorts after Liturgy a week ago. I've never seen him before so I assume he was a non-Orthodox visitor. People were visiting with him after Liturgy, and who knows whether anything was said about his shorts.

If feo had visited our parish, nothing would have been said about his shorts before the Liturgy. When our Priest introduced himself after Liturgy (which he always does unless the visitor leaves quickly), and if he thought something needed to be said, he would have said something then.

I totally agree with the Church having a code of modesty, and I will dress however my Priest and parish expect me to, in obedience. I just don't think it should be brought up when a visitor walks through the door, unless it's some extreme circumstance. :)

Marjorie

7th September 2004, 07:09 PM

Well, this probably isn't the best place to make my first post, but I do have some thoughts...

The only place where I was ever asked to modify my dress for worship was at the synagogue I was attending before my bat mitzvah (I was raised Jewish.) I was wearing shorts, like you, and when Rabbi Amy asked me to dress better, it really hurt me, and I didn't even really know why. Of course, at the time I didn't even really believe in God, so it had nothing to do with me thinking that the people of God should greet me no matter what I was wearing, etc. I realized when she told me this that she had NO idea who I was, what I had gone through in my life related to personal appearance, how insecure I was about it, and she had no idea how she had hurt my feelings when she said it. That disturbed me.

Now, I believe that we should dress our best for church. Not for God. God sees us the same no matter what we wear. But we should dress our best for ourselves-- if we're dressed in a way we would consider "sloppy," we aren't in the mindset to behold or-- God forbid-- partake of the most pure Body and the most precious Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Orthodoxy is a very physical religion. We worship God not just with our minds, hearts, souls, but also with our bodies, which are temples of the Spirit of God. God became man, in a flesh and blood body. The body too is redeemed, not just the airy ethereal spirit that shall float off after death. "I believe in the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come..." These two concepts cannot be separated. Our bodies must prepare for worship the same as our hearts-- which is not to say that we should look perfect, but just that our bodies too sense some of the reverence that we plan to offer with our entire selves.

So anyway putting these thoughts together, I would say that the old man was wrong in asking you to change your clothes. I'm not surprised if you were hurt in the way I was hurt by Rabbi Amy's question. She didn't even KNOW me, I kept thinking... and it is even more the case for you and this man. However, I also believe that "casual wear" is not how we should approach the heavenly kingdom that is present in the Eucharistic celebration, not because God will smite us for it, but because if our body feels "casual," how can we expect our mind to feel as if it is somewhere "separate," holy?

My clothes for church probably look pretty crappy to some people, just because I don't have great clothes; I hate shopping. However for me they are the best that I have. So whilst we shouldn't judge-- that man shouldn't have judged-- we should each do what we can to prepare our souls, minds, hearts, and bodies for worship.

We shouldn't judge the old man too harshly though-- from his point of view he was just protecting the purity of the holy place-- as for the less-than-modest women, yes, the double standard is not fair and is CERTAINLY not Orthodox. If anything, the standards for women seem stricter in most Orthodox countries.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

7th September 2004, 07:16 PM

Welcome to TAW, Marjorie!:wave: Wow, are you really only 16? You have a lot of wisdom and insight for someone that young. I'm glad you shared your experience with us. I hope we'll hear more from you.:)

Matrona

7th September 2004, 07:22 PM

Bless you, Marjorie! :wave: Welcome to TAW.

Marjorie

7th September 2004, 07:29 PM

Thank you GDE and Matrona. :)

I've been lurking here for a really long time (and therefore know who all of you are, haha) and thought I should just post already.

@ GDE: the 16 thing is probably misleading, as I will be 17 in a month. Haha.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

ufonium2

7th September 2004, 07:50 PM

@ GDE: the 16 thing is probably misleading, as I will be 17 in a month. Haha.

*ufonium2 hums* "I am sixteen going on seventeen..."

I don't know the rest of the words, but now that's stuck in my head:mad:

Marjorie

7th September 2004, 07:52 PM

*ufonium2 hums* "I am sixteen going on seventeen..."

I don't know the rest of the words, but now that's stuck in my head:mad:LOL! Sorry to afflict you so.

The Sound of Music disturbs me...

*listens to Byzantine Chant in order to keep song out of my head* :D

In IC XC,
Marjorie

vlinder

7th September 2004, 10:45 PM

To Life Immortal

I have always dressed modestly. I am heavy and where I live, most of the females don't know how to dress. I don't like to wear Western clothes because they are too sexualized. I wear shalwar qamiz (Middle Eastern long dress-shirt with loose pants underneath with scarf) or sari (Tradition Indian wrap dress) to Divine Liturgy. I have lost some weight, so my clothes are a little baggy now.

I find that when I dress in Traditional clothing, I'm not stared at in a sexual way and I get more respect as a female. I feel more safer and better about myself if I cover up.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Vlinder ~*~

Akathist

7th September 2004, 11:35 PM

Feo,

I am sorry you had such an uncomfortable event occur to you. I wasn't there but I wonder if it was just an older man trying to do his best and putting his foot in his mouth in the process.

Church is full of double standards and hypocracies. If you want to find a church without these things, than you will need to travel out into the desert and build your own church to attend. As soon as you get even a small group of people, things will start to become unfair at times.

I am glad that you are not letting this incident stop you from attending more Orthodox services. Not all parish's are the same, so if you continue to be uncomfortable you might want to travel around a bit.

I do wish that women and girls wearing very short dresses/skirts would be taken aside by a leader of the church. (Perhaps by the Priest's or Deacon's wife) But then, I would also agree that a man be taken aside for shorts and that has offended you.

I think however, that if when you are taken aside you explained that this was the very best you had (and not just that it was too hot and it was inconvienient to dress better) then the church leader (or wife) would be understanding and you would be welcome however you were dressed. (And I am quite sure that in time, you would go to goodwill or try to get some other clothes to wear.)

Whenever I want to complain about how I am to dress for church, I think about the poor Priest and the layers and layers of vestments he is to wear. My Priest wears his cossack all the time, even to his day job. I asked him about how he handles the heat and he says that this is the sacrifice he makes to Jesus. It is part of his spiritual discipline. When he told me this, I stopped wearing dress pants to church and dug out the skirts I used to wear to the Pentacostal church (that had a dress code published) and started to iron my clothes on Saturday to wear the next two days.

The readers also have to wear long sleaves and black which just absorbs heat.

I figure if the church requires these people to wear certain clothing than the least I can do is dress the way I know I am supposed to dress for church. (I choose for example to also wear a head covering... but that is a personal choice and is not required at my church... I wear it for my spiritual discipline.)

There was a girl a couple weeks ago wearing a short dress that was inappropriate. She was very uncomfortable because after she took communion and got her antidoram, she turned and everyone was looking at her. I don't know if anyone said a thing, but even while standing up, she crossed her legs in embarrassment. I noticed her wearing a longer skirt (still above the knee but not by very much) the other day.

I believe that how my church handled me wearing my dress pants was perfect. No one commented at all. (Not even the Priest.) But within a few weeks, I chose on my own to dress better. I wish you had had the same opportunity to come to this decision on your own. But the older man was just trying to do what was best.

I feel sorry for him because he didn't have better clothes to wear himself and had to wear dirty shoes and unironed shirt. I bet he gets really overwelmed in his life and he might even feel embarrassed. Lord have mercy!

Orthosdoxa

8th September 2004, 10:26 PM

Church is full of double standards and hypocracies. If you want to find a church without these things, than you will need to travel out into the desert and build your own church to attend. As soon as you get even a small group of people, things will start to become unfair at times.

True dat.

MaRiNa_Orthodox

8th September 2004, 11:48 PM

I wish priests could do something about short skirts/dresses....BUT I was talking to a priest from my church and as someone here said, the people said they will not attend the church anymore if they can't come the way they want:confused: :eek: can u imagine that? And while he was telling us about that he told us he has the same problem with his daughters and he knows that they set a bad example for others but he tried all that he could...i guess in some churches where people who are attending don't have any idea about how and what they should be wearing, maybe the priests could say a little bit after the Liturgy about it, but I guess it won't work in all churches...:( I hope it gets better

ufonium2

9th September 2004, 10:35 AM

And while he was telling us about that he told us he has the same problem with his daughters and he knows that they set a bad example for others but he tried all that he could
I've got a crazy idea. Could he try not buying skimpy clothes for his daughters? Or telling them they can't wear them to church if they somehow manage buy them on their own?

I was watching a friend futily try to reason with her eight-year-old to get him to act like a human being during church, and I realized that I don't think my parents ever bothered to reason with me beyond "because I said so." There's no law that says your family has to be a democracy.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

9th September 2004, 10:44 AM

I've got a crazy idea. Could he try not buying skimpy clothes for his daughters? Or telling them they can't wear them to church if they somehow manage buy them on their own?

I was watching a friend futily try to reason with her eight-year-old to get him to act like a human being during church, and I realized that I don't think my parents ever bothered to reason with me beyond "because I said so." There's no law that says your family has to be a democracy.
Amen to that! My family did not exactly produce a healthy model of family dynamics (or healthy anything), but one thing was certain: What mom and dad said was not up for negotiation or debate. Dad had a cow once because I wore a short skirt to school (probably wouldn't be considered that short by today's standards). I didn't like his opinion, but I knew that he was the dad and I was the kid, and that was that.

Akathist

10th September 2004, 01:26 AM

I blame Dr. Spock. *(not the vulcan, the Psychologist) for this. He really messed people up starting in the 1950's. (or was it the late 40's?)

I have trouble understanding how a parent can not teach a child from a young age appropriate behavior. Of course a parent will lose some battles, and choose not to fight some battles, but in my opinion, dressing in a way that insults the creator of the Universe seems like a good battle to fight against.

feo

12th September 2004, 06:30 PM

Hey guys, its Sunday afternoon- and I visited another Orthodox perish; and thought I'd give you an update on what happened. But first thing first, I want to respond to a few points that were made since I've been away.

Orthodoxy is a very physical religion. We worship God not just with our minds, hearts, souls, but also with our bodies, which are temples of the Spirit of God.

I agree with this mindset. Orthodoxy IS a very physical religion; and I love the way the Orthodox Church worships durnig service. You should look appropriate while worshiping. But to add to this- I don't like to limit myself with HOW I worship. While the chanting during service is an excellent way to express our love for Christ, and dressing modestly is ALSo an excellent form of obediance... I think our worship should not end there. I do my best to make every part of my life a spiritual act of worship; and to extend that beyond the walls of a Church. I don't care if I'm using my schooling as a way to worship God, or cleaning the bathroom... here at work; on my own will as an act of worship.

During these times, shouldn't I also look "my best" during "worship"?

Church is full of double standards and hypocracies. If you want to find a church without these things, than you will need to travel out into the desert and build your own church to attend. As soon as you get even a small group of people, things will start to become unfair at times

And I agree; no Church is perfect. We are not called to be perfect; only to merely try. I am a firm believer that God looks more at where we're going, instead of where we are. Its a beautiful thing. But I am sorry: I hold my Christian brothers and sisters to a HIGHER standard than that of my pagan friends. If we are to have Christ living inside of us, then there SHOULD be a difference- as far as expectations goes. I know it sounds like I'm being kinda stubborn here; but it is our responsibility to hold each other accountable.

I feel sorry for him because he didn't have better clothes to wear himself and had to wear dirty shoes and unironed shirt. I bet he gets really overwelmed in his life and he might even feel embarrassed. Lord have mercy!

This is going to sound harsh, but my pity ends when the usher refuses to look at the plank in his own eye; prior to trying to take the one out of mine.

Now let me go on to my experience this morning.

I got there early, and dressed in nice clothing. A Ralph Lauren long sleeve collard work shirt, and a beautiful pair of new kahki-dockers. My shoes are clean, my hair was combed; and I smelled nice. Nothing to complain about. I'm not very comfy with the dress code; but I did not want to start a ruckis on purpose; so I conformed.

Service was nice, but I was disapointed: as there was no greek. Towards the end, the priest blessed each one of us... with, uhm oil? And I was a little confused. I walked up, and asked if it was proper for me to be blessed; as I wasnt a member of the Church (see guys? I'm not TRYING to be offensive here) And he said it was alright. I kissed the picture for the first time... which was a bit uncomfy; due to my protestant-brainwashed brain.

One of the elderly ladies invited me to coffee after service- she noticed I didnt really know what I was doing. During the coffee, her husband asked if I had visited an Orthodox Church before, and I explained that I had; but asked his opinion on the situation regardnig me being asked to leave.

He explained to me that it is in our best interests to look our best by being modest. I asked him, "You do not find shorts and flip flops acceptable?" And he firmly said "NO". Just then his grand daughter walked up- and asked for his keys. She was wearnig a short skirt and flip flops. I asked, "Do you find short skirts and flip flops acceptable?"

He turned a little red; and stuttered. He explained to me that dressing is a personal thing.

(Wouldnt it be a public thing if we are to comment on it?)

He then said that if the girls were to dress with long skirts, it would be "JUST LIKE ISLAM" This statement I took offense to, as... from what I remember: early Christians dressed VERY VERY conservatively. And I also found that statement ignorant.

After that he turned around; and talked with the other guy next to him, ignoring me. I decided to leave, I told him to take care... and he wouldnt even say 'bye' to me. Needless to say, on my way away from the Church, I did not feel Christ's love.

Why is finding a Church so difficult? :(

Oblio

12th September 2004, 06:38 PM

:sigh:

feo

12th September 2004, 06:41 PM

:sigh:

I'm not trying to be annoynig here :help:

MariaRegina

12th September 2004, 06:52 PM

Hey guys, its Sunday afternoon- and I visited another Orthodox perish; and thought I'd give you an update on what happened. But first thing first, I want to respond to a few points that were made since I've been away.

...

This is going to sound harsh, but my pity ends when the usher refuses to look at the plank in his own eye; prior to trying to take the one out of mine.

Now let me go on to my experience this morning.

I got there early, and dressed in nice clothing. A Ralph Lauren long sleeve collard work shirt, and a beautiful pair of new kahki-dockers. My shoes are clean, my hair was combed; and I smelled nice. Nothing to complain about. I'm not very comfy with the dress code; but I did not want to start a ruckis on purpose; so I conformed.

Service was nice, but I was disapointed: as there was no greek. Towards the end, the priest blessed each one of us... with, uhm oil? And I was a little confused. I walked up, and asked if it was proper for me to be blessed; as I wasnt a member of the Church (see guys? I'm not TRYING to be offensive here) And he said it was alright. I kissed the picture for the first time... which was a bit uncomfy; due to my protestant-brainwashed brain.

One of the elderly ladies invited me to coffee after service- she noticed I didnt really know what I was doing. During the coffee, her husband asked if I had visited an Orthodox Church before, and I explained that I had; but asked his opinion on the situation regardnig me being asked to leave.

He explained to me that it is in our best interests to look our best by being modest. I asked him, "You do not find shorts and flip flops acceptable?" And he firmly said "NO". Just then his grand daughter walked up- and asked for his keys. She was wearnig a short skirt and flip flops. I asked, "Do you find short skirts and flip flops acceptable?"

He turned a little red; and stuttered. He explained to me that dressing is a personal thing.

(Wouldnt it be a public thing if we are to comment on it?)

He then said that if the girls were to dress with long skirts, it would be "JUST LIKE ISLAM" This statement I took offense to, as... from what I remember: early Christians dressed VERY VERY conservatively. And I also found that statement ignorant.

After that he turned around; and talked with the other guy next to him, ignoring me. I decided to leave, I told him to take care... and he wouldnt even say 'bye' to me. Needless to say, on my way away from the Church, I did not feel Christ's love.

Why is finding a Church so difficult? :(

We have to love our brother as Christ has love us who are the chief of sinners. He died for us sinners. If you don't feel love and acceptance could it be because they didn't feel love and acceptance from you?

Forgive me a sinner.

YSIC
Elizabeth

feo

12th September 2004, 06:55 PM

If you don't feel love and acceptance could it be because they didn't feel love and acceptance from you?

Even IF he did not feel MY love, isnt his love- through Christ suppose to be unconditional? Even IF he did not feel MY love; isnt there a level of tact, such as at least saying "bye" to someone in return?

Akathist

12th September 2004, 06:58 PM

Feo,

What I feel a bit annoyed with is that you are still focused on if you have 100% happy experience with no hypocracy at all by people to determine if a faith is acceptable.

You are coming accross as judgemental. I think you are trying to be respectful, but in the end, you don't really have respect.

That is the difference, acting respectful is easy. Being respectful even if there are things you don't understand or that don't fit your standards is another.

Try focusing not on "feeling Christ's love" and on dealing with your own sins.

Church is not about feeling happy. It is about worshiping God and working our our salvation.

MariaRegina

12th September 2004, 06:59 PM

Even IF he did not feel MY love, isnt his love- through Christ suppose to be unconditional? Even IF he did not feel MY love; isnt there a level of tact, such as at least saying "bye" to someone in return?

Hey, man, we're all sinners.

That is why we have Holy Confession - to come to terms with the times when we are looking at that tiny speck in our brother's eyes and failing to see that we ourselves have a more serious problem.

If they were offended by you, and I'm sure the grandfather felt humiliated, then perhaps by silence they were avoiding saying something really bad.

Our priests urge us to keep quiet if we have nothing charitable to say.

Silence is golden and preferred at those times, no?

MariaRegina

12th September 2004, 07:03 PM

...

Church is not about your standards for other people. ...start to go to church for God. Focus on Him. ....

Yes, we need to focus on Christ, Who is our life and our light. Otherwise, we have no right to call ourselves Christians - those who follow Christ.

[thornygrace's message was edited to comply with her wishes]

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

12th September 2004, 07:09 PM

Even IF he did not feel MY love, isnt his love- through Christ suppose to be unconditional? Even IF he did not feel MY love; isnt there a level of tact, such as at least saying "bye" to someone in return?
Actually, I'm puzzled as to why you brought up the dress code subject with someone from a different parish. And, I would go even further to say that it was rude of you to point out to someone that you think their daughter isn't dressed appropriately. Yes, there is a double standard sometimes in some parishes. But has God appointed you to judge them? If you feel you've been judged wrongly, why turn around and pronounce your judgement on them? Is this not also a double standard?

I'm sorry, but it just sounds to me like you went in with an attitude of wanting to prove a point with people. It's no wonder that guy didn't gush with love and cordiality. I'm not saying he couldn't have done a better job of it, but I think you need to keep the focus on YOU and what is going on in your heart, just as we all need to focus on our own short-comings and how to overcome them.

feo

12th September 2004, 07:13 PM

This is where you are being annoying to me at least. You are again focusing on finding a church that fits your standards, not for theology but standards for how people are to behave.

Wrong, I am NOT trynig to find a church that fits my standards. I'm not quite sure you noticed; where I said I had dressed- to how the church wanted me to dress. If it was about MY standards I would've worn shorts again. I am trying to find a chuch that TRIES to fit its OWN standards.

What business is it of yours what people wear or if they are dressed appropriately or not?

I didn't even bring up the discussion, as far as it being my business; he had asked how it went. It is none of my business how people dress, I am fine with everything. I had merely asked what his opinion was; regarding skirts. I do not find fault with a question such as that. It is too bad he did :(

Whenever you say somethign judgemental to most Orthodox we will turn away from you. We do not believe in judging others. The focus for each of us needs to be on our own purity and salvation

How is that question judging him? As far as our focus: dont forget Jude :)

Jude 1:22-23

Silence is golden and preferred at those times, no?

I agree with this mostly. Sometimes my close friends will say things just... are just messed up. These are the times when I am silent, to have time to cool off. But I think the circumstance is a bit different from that. If someone was visiting Danforth Chapel for the first time, I do not EXPECT them to be loving; as Christ was. If that person says something messed up, I will do my best not to ignore him; as there is a chance I will not see him again.

Akathist

12th September 2004, 07:16 PM

I edited my post above as I was too rude. Then I was quoted. Therefore I publically apologize.

Suzannah

12th September 2004, 07:20 PM

Wrong, I am NOT trynig to find a church that fits my standards. I'm not quite sure you noticed; where I said I had dressed- to how the church wanted me to dress. If it was about MY standards I would've worn shorts again. I am trying to find a chuch that TRIES to fit its OWN standards.

I didn't even bring up the discussion, as far as it being my business; he had asked how it went. It is none of my business how people dress, I am fine with everything. I had merely asked what his opinion was; regarding skirts. I do not find fault with a question such as that. It is too bad he did :(

How is that question judging him? As far as our focus: dont forget Jude :)

Jude 1:22-23

I agree with this mostly. Sometimes my close friends will say things just... are just messed up. These are the times when I am silent, to have time to cool off. But I think the circumstance is a bit different from that. If someone was visiting Danforth Chapel for the first time, I do not EXPECT them to be loving; as Christ was. If that person says something messed up, I will do my best not to ignore him; as there is a chance I will not see him again.

Dear feo,

I'm sorry you have had what you perceive as a negative experience. However, this thread has gone on for several pages and you have consistently argued with those here, seemingly to prove your point. We would ask that you refrain from debate in our forum. Your questions have been answered, and when you have posted for further explanation, those explanations have been given by our members here. Now I am asking you out of charity, to refrain from imposing your ideals upon those here. Thank you.
In Christ's love,
Suzannah

Akathist

12th September 2004, 07:25 PM

Thankyou Suzannah.

feo

12th September 2004, 07:29 PM

Actually, I'm puzzled as to why you brought up the dress code subject with someone from a different parish. And, I would go even further to say that it was rude of you to point out to someone that you think their daughter isn't dressed appropriately.

I didnt bring up my last experience; he had asked how it went. And I never said his daughter was dressed wrongly, I merely asked what his opinion was of a skirt and flip-flops.

Yes, there is a double standard sometimes in some parishes. But has God appointed you to judge them?

The only thing I'm trying to do; is to point out double-standards so they can be fixed. IMHO: this is not judging them.

I edited my post above as I was too rude. Then I was quoted. Therefore I publically apologize

Egh thats okay ;) I've seen worse- from myself haha. No hard feelings.

feo

12th September 2004, 07:34 PM

Dear feo,

I'm sorry you have had what you perceive as a negative experience. However, this thread has gone on for several pages and you have consistently argued with those here, seemingly to prove your point. We would ask that you refrain from debate in our forum. Your questions have been answered, and when you have posted for further explanation, those explanations have been given by our members here. Now I am asking you out of charity, to refrain from imposing your ideals upon those here. Thank you.
In Christ's love,
Suzannah

Ooops my bad, I didnt see this prior to my last post.

Sure thing

Oblio

12th September 2004, 07:35 PM

I'm not trying to be annoynig here :help:

My :sigh: was WRT the whole situation. I did not think you were trying to be annoying.

I do think on further reflection that you embarrrased the father and that was probably why you got the cold shoulder. Not saying that was right on his part (or yours), just making a hypothesis.

feo

12th September 2004, 07:45 PM

Anyway, I think I'm just not going to worry about this thread anymore. I just wanted to give you guys an outsiders view... and possibly something to think about. And so far I have been accused of being judgemental with a bad attitude.

Perhaps that is partially true. While my attitude may have not been the best: I can honestly say its not for NO reason. I'm out like a trout. Goodbye

Akathist

12th September 2004, 10:02 PM

Goodbye.

What I feel a bit annoyed with is that you are still focused on if you have 100% happy experience with no hypocracy at all by people to determine if a faith is acceptable.

You are coming accross as judgemental. I think you are trying to be respectful, but in the end, you don't really have respect.

That is the difference, acting respectful is easy. Being respectful even if there are things you don't understand or that don't fit your standards is another.

Try focusing not on "feeling Christ's love" and on dealing with your own sins.

Church is not about feeling happy. It is about worshiping God and working out our salvation.

Orthosdoxa

12th September 2004, 11:06 PM

:sigh:

feo

5th December 2004, 03:18 AM

For some odd strange reason, God wants me to learn about Orthodoxy. I remember being raised Catholic as a small child, and thinking, "Pshaw theres no way I'll EVER belong to a traditional Church"

(There were also a time when I said I'd never go on a mission, and even way back in the day; I said I'd never be a Christian. Whether I liked it or not, God changed my heart) So why is it such a surprise that He now wants me in a 'traditional' Church? Perhaps this is just God's sense of humor?

There is a parable about garments in the Gospel, and those without the proper garment were thrown out. I would add the usher did his job, and in Orthodox understanding that was the will of the Lord. When coming to Orthodoxy we accept the Church, and conform to her, not the other way around.

The irony of the whole situation, was that parable was the *exact* same parable that was discussed when I was bustin out the shorts. Maybe God was trying to tell me something? When God speaks to me, He sometimes has to yell in my ears. I'm a stubborn only child.

I continued to attend a couple of dif Orthodox services, but at different parishes. I was confused. I didn't know what to do. I PM'ed Oblio and asked him! He gave me someone's name... to meet up with- and amazingly it was the Priest who is in charge of the same Church that asked me to leave originally.

We talked for a bit, and had a bible study. It was great. So a big hug :hug: for Oblio- for taking the time to give me a hand. And also a big hug :hug: for thornygrace :hug: because I think I pushed one too many of her buttons ;) Sorry for by strange typing and persistant attitude. I love being challenged, I love challenging my Christian brothers and sisters; and sometimes- I think God likes to be challanged. Peace all.

Orthosdoxa

5th December 2004, 03:23 AM

Welcome back, Feo. :)

For some odd strange reason, God wants me to learn about Orthodoxy. .
I know why...and it's not such a strange or odd reason after all.

so are you attending one particular parish now?

LK

xenia

5th December 2004, 03:33 AM

Feo! Who as I recall, is not so feo! Great to see you again!

feo

5th December 2004, 04:30 AM

I know why...and it's not such a strange or odd reason after all.

so are you attending one particular parish now?

Uhm yes, the original one that I attended. I went to the bible study Tue, Vespers service tonight, and I'm pretty sure I'll go to the Liturgy tomorrow morning.

And why is not not so strange? :P

Feo! Who as I recall, is not so feo! Great to see you again!

Its a pleasure see'ing you as well!....Pshaw :P I look goofy in my photos! But I still love sharing 'em, helps match a face to a name- ya know?

Stephanida

7th December 2004, 01:59 AM

People in my parish also dress disrespectfully, we have the dress code right on the front door but if someone especially a visitor were to show up in pants (female) or shorts we do not turn them away. I am sorry Feo you had a bad experience but I am glad you were not totally turned off from Orthodoxy.

I wear long and modest skirts to church even though I find it diffuclt to wear skirts due to a bad experience that happened in a skirt.

While on this topic of dress. I would like to know what is the expected every day dress for a Orthodox female? I want to make sure I am not making any mistakes!:blush:

I sadly do not get to see other Orthodox on a day to day basis.:(

Sorry to be a bother!!!

Orthosdoxa

7th December 2004, 02:08 AM

I would say expected every day dress is modest.

Just look at what Britney Spears does, and do the opposite.

feo

7th December 2004, 04:17 AM

Just look at what Britney Spears does, and do the opposite.

Man that girl just gets goofier and goofier by the minute :sigh:

Orthosdoxa

7th December 2004, 04:37 AM

Man that girl just gets goofier and goofier by the minute :sigh:

Wait a second... are you talking about me or Britney? :P

Xpycoctomos

7th December 2004, 05:30 AM

I just read this entire thread just now. It was quite interesting to read... and then to see "feo" come back with a slightly different perspective (for lack of a better word) on the matter. It was like reading a journal or something and skipping ahead... fun!

Feo. You seem like a cool guy and probalby someone I would enjoy hanging out with and talking about politics, faith and culture with over breakfast at Denny's at 2 in the morning.

There are things that you said that I wanted to comment on, but I think you will just get it better over time. There are somethings that won't make sense to us when explained... we need to grow into some of the explanations. Sometimes only experience makes things make sense.

I soooooo understood where you were coming from in your posts, because I was once where you are (or at least were back in September). But I understood and was in agreement with what most other's here said (especially Xenia and Marjorie's first posts in this thread... there were other ones too that were excellent).

If you are still attending liturgy in a year or two, look back at your posts here in TAW and reactions to your experiences. You will probably find that you have an even easier time relating to what others were saying to you and maybe even have a good laugh at some of your perspectives. I'm not referring simply to this thread, but anything else you may post in the future. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. It's all a part of growing in the Orthodox faith (or any faith for that matter). And it never stops. You probably know this very well from your own personal journey to Chrsit which you have alluded to a few times in this thread.

God bless you brother. I wish you a positive journey in the coming days, months, years etc... Please feel free to ask more questions. Also, feel free to realize that people understand where you are coming from... even if they think you don't. Good thumb of rule... don't explain where you're coming from more than twice. After that, either they never will understand you or you will never understand that they understand you. LOL I'm suggesting that many of us understand where you're coming from because, having been protestant (and still being american) ourselves (most of us, that is), most of us have been in your shoes at one time or another.

God bless you brother!

John

feo

7th December 2004, 03:50 PM

Wait a second... are you talking about me or Britney?

hehehe considering you dont have a photo of yourself nearby: I'd say its safe to assume I was referring to Britney ;)

Feo. You seem like a cool guy and probalby someone I would enjoy hanging out with and talking about politics, faith and culture with over breakfast at Denny's at 2 in the morning.

Hey thanks for the affirmation! If you're ever down in Arizona sometime gimme a hollar, and we can go grab a coffee or do something CRAZY. Like, uhm.. discussing politics or something.

Good thumb of rule... don't explain where you're coming from more than twice. After that, either they never will understand you or you will never understand that they understand you

It is a good rule of thumb, and again: I thank you for the suggestion. The only problem I see with that is that I'm a self centered only child who demands to get my way everytime! For all I know, I could always be wrong; but it doesnt matter because I think I'm right! If someone doesn't agree with me I'll go on and on until they do!

So yes, its just difficult for me to think like that! But it is something I am working on.

Anyway, I appreciate your warm reply- and may our Lord bless you richly :D I only apologize that I'm not as good with words as you, and I cant return the kindness in the same way. Take care of yourself!

Xpycoctomos

7th December 2004, 04:08 PM

Good thumb of rule... Pure genious! And the even better thing is that my sign-in name is Xpycoctomos (Chrysostom) meaning golden tongue... more like golden foot in the mouth!

lol

John

vanshan

7th December 2004, 05:25 PM

Forgive me. A couple weeks ago I saw a woman in our parish who always wears short short skirts, plunging neckline shirts, etc. come in wearing something that looked unusually modest. . . . .but as she walked to the front of the temple I saw that her sweater had no back. It was not just a little low, her back was exposed all the way down to her waistline . . . and a little below. It's not a matter of legalism, it's just a question of respect.

DoubleDutch

7th December 2004, 09:37 PM

I believe no-one should be turned away from the church for dress matters. I personally would rejoice to see prostitutes (even in their working clothes) enter the church to seek God's presence, even if it would scandalize self-righteous "well-dressed" do-everything-according-to-the-book people...

While we personally dress as we deem best to meet our King, we should not judge people who are dressed otherwise. Who am I to judge if the other person is worthy or not to enter God's house?

Of course, if we are talking about parish members, there is room in pastoral talks about what could be a fitting dress code, but always in love.

xenia

7th December 2004, 11:00 PM

feo

8th December 2004, 03:34 AM

The trouble is, in today's culture, everyone dresses like a bum. You really can't tell from style of clothing if a person is poor or is just dressing down because it's cool. Ragged clothes, run-down shoes- these are popular among young people today. Actually, it seems that the poorer people dress a little better sometimes.

Well of course you're gonna think all of us hip youngsters are dressed like bums if you consider a red Ralph Lauren polo and a pair of kahki shorts "ragged" ;)

Just kidding :P Hope you're having a good evening :wave:

Theophorus

8th December 2004, 04:56 AM

Well, in this thread I don't think a single person believes that poor people should be turned away from church because they are not well-dressed.

The trouble is, in today's culture, everyone dresses like a bum. You really can't tell from style of clothing if a person is poor or is just dressing down because it's cool. Ragged clothes, run-down shoes- these are popular among young people today. Actually, it seems that the poorer people dress a little better sometimes. It is not the quality but the effort. I see men and woman in the same skirt or sports coat, or sweater week after week, many times not fitting due to the age of the garment or matching the rest of the garment (grey slacks, tweed jacket and tennis shoes to aid in standing for the liturgy). It is a humbling sight indeed. It's funny because I can recognize the same jacket and tie on men from the preceding Sunday, but I cannot remember the women's clothing, only their faces, and the amount of makeup they wear.

Though I do not feel that someone should be turned away because of dress, I do hope they are the exception and not the rule. Not because of some kind of percieved prudishness, but because of my weakness. Jeans and shorts are not appropriate in the same way that Armani chic is not, imo. As for women... puleeeease be modest.

I am all in favor of bulky clothing and head coverings for women, and frumpy jackets for men. Modesty and respect for others, and for our Lord should be the defining criteria. What is taking place before us is worthy of this attention. It extends to God, and to our brothers and sisters, and to the visitor.

Wiffey

8th December 2004, 01:00 PM

Excellent point about modesty. I cringe when I see teenage girls wearing mid-thigh length minis in the Communion line. (Plus they always seem to be paired with high heels. Muy trampy!) I'm also not a big fan of spaghetti straps, shorts and visible midriffs in the summer.

The Virginian

9th December 2004, 11:18 AM

HHMMMM!!!

If you were to go to an interview appoinment late, the interviewer would rightly interpret your action, as you not caring about the job for which you had applied. The same rationale applies to showing up late for the worship of the Divine Liturgy, yes God sees your heart, in that you desire to be "in church"; however, it shows a lack of respect for the priest (all the clergy), and the other worshippers.
I agree to a point with jeff the Finn. Entering the service is a lot more than just entering a building, we are entering into the very worship of heaven, a fact of which everyone should be cognizant. Unless I've nothing else to wear (which I do) would be the only reason for me to wear shorts to a service. Granted that what we wear will never garner us any favor with Almighty God, showing up at a wedding feast without a wedding garment would be quite noticable.
The older gentleman should have taken you aside and explained the parish dress code, yes -without the apparent double standard concerning female dress, but then again why be so adamant about wearing what you want to wear. My wife will tell you that there's a lot of room for improvement in me as a husband; and, I'll admit that to you as well. However at the same time it's not my responsibility to try to change what i may view as wrong with my wife. I am not the Holy Spirit. Wrongs, real or otherwise my chap the hide of my emotions/opinion, but then how would the Holy Spirit grow real love in me, if I'm constantly worried about a perceived injustice or double standard?
Just my thoughts!