Talmud teaches the possibility of two appearances of Messiah

[Charlesinflorida]

Talmud shows a mystery of two Messiahs or two appearances of Messiah. The Esscenes beleived in one Messiah who would die and yet live eternally if I understand their writings at all. This is from the Talmud and speaks of the arguement about how Messiah might die and yet appear in victory. As you can see, there was'nt agreement. (As I have said Talmud was commentary and not Holy writ. Although I can agree that some of the writers were inspired by the Spirit)

Talmud - Mas. Sukkah 52a

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart.1 Is it not, they said, an a fortiori argument? If in the future2 when they will be engaged in mourning and the Evil Inclination will have no power over them,3 the Torah4 nevertheless says, men separately and women separately, how much more so now5 when they are engaged in rejoicing and the Evil Inclination has sway over them.6

What is the cause of the mourning [mentioned in the last cited verse]?1 — R. Dosa and the Rabbis differ on the point. One explained, The cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph,7 and the other explained, The cause is the slaying of the Evil Inclination.

It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse, And they shall look upon me because they have thrust him through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son;8 but according to him who explains the cause to be the slaying of the Evil Inclination, is this [it may be objected] an occasion for mourning? Is it not rather an occasion for rejoicing? Why then should they weep? — [The explanation is] as R. Judah expounded: In the time to come9 the Holy One, blessed be He, will bring the Evil Inclination and slay it in the presence of the righteous and the wicked. To the righteous it will have the appearance of a towering hill, and to the wicked it will have the appearance of a hair thread. Both the former and the latter will weep; the righteous will weep saying, ‘How were we able to overcome such a towering hill!’ The wicked also will weep saying, ‘How is it that we were unable to conquer this hair thread!’ And the Holy One, blessed be He, will also marvel together with them, as it is said, Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, it shall10 also be marvellous in My eyes.11

R. Assi stated, The Evil Inclination is at first like the thread of a spider, but ultimately12 becomes like cart ropes, as it is said, Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart-rope.13

Our Rabbis taught, The Holy One, blessed be He, will say to the Messiah, the son of David (May he reveal himself speedily in our days!), ‘Ask of me anything, and I will give it to thee’, as it is said, I will tell of the decree etc. this day have I begotten thee, ask of me and I will give the nations for thy inheritance.14 But when he will see that the Messiah the son of Joseph is slain, he will say to Him, ‘Lord of the Universe, I ask of Thee only the gift of life’.’As to life’, He would answer him, ‘Your father David has already prophesied this concerning you’, as it is said, He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, [even length of days for ever and ever].15

R. ‘Awira or, as some say, R. Joshua b. Levi, made the following exposition: The Evil Inclination has seven names. The Holy One, blessed be He, called it Evil, as it is said, For the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth.16 Moses called it the Uncircumcised, as it is said, Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart.17 David called it Unclean, as it is said, Create me a clean heart, O Lord,18 which implies that there is an unclean one. Solomon called it the Enemy, as it is said, If thine enemy19 be hungry, give him bread20 to eat and if he be thirsty give him water to drink.21 For thou wilt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord will reward thee;22 read not, ‘will reward thee’23 but ‘will cause it to be at peace with thee.’24 Isaiah called it the Stumbling-Block, as it is said, Cast ye up, Cast ye up, clear the way, take up the stumbling-block out of the way of my people.25 Ezekiel called it Stone, as it is said, And I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh.26 Joel called it the Hidden One, as it is said, But I will remove far off from you the hidden one.27

Our Rabbis taught: ‘But I will remove far off from you the hidden one’,27 refers to the Evil Inclination which is constantly hidden in the heart of man; and will drive him into a land barren and desolate28 means, to a place where there are no men for him to attack; with his face toward the eastern sea,28 [implies] that he set his eyes against the First Temple29 and destroyed it and slew the scholars who were therein; and his hinder part toward the western sea28 [implies] that he set his eyes against the Second Temple and destroyed it and slew the scholars who were therein. That his foulness may come up and his ill-savour may come up28 [means] that he leaves the other nations in peace and attacks only Israel.30 Because he hath done great things.28 Abaye explained, Against scholars31 more than against anyone;32 as was the case when Abaye heard a certain man saying to a woman, ‘Let us arise betimes and go on our way’. ‘I will’, said Abaye, ‘follow them in order to keep them away from transgression’ and he followed them for three parasangs across the meadows. When they parted company33 he heard them say, ‘Our company is pleasant, the way is long’.34 ‘If it were I’,35 said Abaye, ‘I could not have restrained myself’, and so went and leaned in deep anguish against a doorpost, when a certain old man36 came up to him and taught him: The greater the man, the greater his Evil Inclination.

R. Isaac stated, The [Evil] Inclination of a man grows stronger within him from day to day, as it is said, Only
____________________
(1) Zech. XII, 12.
(2) The time alluded to in the text cited.
(3) So that levity is least to be expected.
(4) Sc. Scripture, in the statement ‘and their wives apart’.
(5) At the festivities of the Water-Drawing.
(6) And undue levity is most likely.
(7) The precursor of the Messiah ben David, the herald of the true Messianic age.
(8) Zech. XII, 10.
(9) The Messianic age.
(10) E.V., ‘Should it’.
(11) Zech. VIII, 6.
(12) If the man continues to yield to temptation.
(13) Isa. V, 18.
(14) Ps. II, 7 and 8.
(15) Ps. XXI, 5.
(16) Gen. VIII, 21.
(17) Deut. X, 16; the heart is the supposed seat of the Evil Inclination.
(18) Ps. LI, 12.
(19) The Evil Inclination.
(20) Sc. the study of the Torah.
(21) Sc. the study of the Torah.
(22) Prov. XXV, 21 and 22.
(23) Yeshalem lak.
(24) Yashlimenu lak.
(25) Isa. LVII, 14.
(26) Ezek XXXVI, 26.
(27) Joel II, 20; E.V., ‘northern one’.
(28) Ibid.
(29) Synonymous with sea (cf. Rashi).

[iitb]

Have you checked out this thread? http://www.christianforums.com/t36712

[Hix]

Ive heard this quite a bit before that the Talmud and the Rabbis teached there would be two messiahs because of the apparent difference in the roles thereof.

First it should be noted that the term "The Messiah" is never used in the Tanach, even once. That is becuase there are alot of people called Moshiach, the title was usually reserved for prophets, priests and especially for Kings.
The idea of two messiahs as you have stated is based around the idea of Moshiach Ben David and Moshiach Ben Yosef. Moshiach ben David we all know as the one (will regather Israel, rebuild the temple/sacrifices, bring about a world knowlege of HaShem etc.) But what about Moshiach Ben Yosef?

The Tanach speaks of the Messiah comming at the end times, but others being sent by HaShem are mentioned also. Ezekiel 44:27 mentions a single Priest, believed to become the leader of Ephraim, and Malachi 3:23 mentions the sending of the Prophet Elijah. Sometime during the second temple era these three people became to be known as Messiahs as is seen in the dead sea scrolls in 1QS (Rule of the Community) were it says: "until the prophet comes and the messiahs of Aaron and Israel." Here we see the three figures: the prophet, the priest of Aaron and the leader of Israel. Here are three messianic type characters in the end of days, in the Biblical text and in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

However, in Zechariah 2:3 it mentions that in the end times HaShem sends 4 craftsmen, so who is the fourth? The Rabbis contended that the fourth craftsman was someone called "Moshiach Ben Yosef". His job is mentioned in Obadiah v17:21 were it states that the house of Joseph will have a great military role in the end times, and this will end with an era of peace. Moshiach Ben Yosef will not be a king, but instead a warrior who will not take the throne or any place in power. The Midrashim also contend that he will die in battle, but will be raised from the dead by Moshiach Ben David. This all happens in a 7 year period, by the end of the 7th year Moshiach Ben Yosef will die in battle and Moshiach Ben David will come and finish off the enemy then will proceed the resurrection of the dead.

This interperation is however CONDITIONAL, becuase the traditional Jewish belief is that if the Jews repent and make right their ways with HaShem, the events of Moshiach Ben Yosef will not happen and instead, Moshiach Ben David (aka Yeshua HaMoshiach) will come instead.

So thats basically the traditional interperation of the many messiah theory. Trust me, some of these Jewish studies are as thick as tar and make my brain hurt, this is no exception lol >_< To me, Yeshua is Moshiach Ben David, the king, the light, the promised one that the Jews are waiting for, the other "messiahs" have important roles, but they fall by the wayside. Lets hope that Yeshua comes back soon, eh? Please correct me if im wrong BTW.

I need me a coffee....
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Higher Truth]

Quote:

Talmud teaches the possibility of two appearances of Messiah

HT: The talmud also teaches against Jesus / Yeshua.
You may also want to read Toldot Yeshu to get a further expansion on some of these "concepts".

[Hix]

No it doesnt. That statement is not only off topic but has been completely disproven in another thread.

[Higher Truth]

Quote:

(As I have said Talmud was commentary and not Holy writ. Although I can agree that some of the writers were inspired by the Spirit)

HT:

This is a conflicting statement. The talmud is a historical document, not inspired text.

[Higher Truth]

Hix:

No it doesn't. This statement is not only off topic but has been completely disproven in another thread.

HT:

I appreciate your informing me of this Hix. Do you have a copy of the babylonian talmud on CD by any chance? Let's get a second opinion from a Rabbi who studies talmud. This is an excerpt from an article by Rabbi Daniel Lapin:


Some of my Jewish readers may feel squeamish about my alluding to the existence of Talmudic passages uncomplimentary toward Jesus as well as descriptive of Jewish involvement in his crucifixion. However, the truth is that anyone with Internet access can easily locate those passages in about ten seconds. I think it far better that in the name of genuine Jewish-Christian friendship in America, we allow all faiths their own beliefs even if we find those beliefs troubling or at odds with our own beliefs. This way we can all prosper safely under the constitutional protection of the United States of America.

http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/comment/lappin200309260936.asp

[Hix]

I dont have a copy of the Babylonian Talmud on CD, Ive learned about the Talmud as a Jew at Shul. Bottom line is, why do you think the author of the website I showed you the link to went to such far reasons to show there is no resemblence between those mentioned in the Talmud and Yeshua? Becuase there are none, and it is feed for anti-semites.

Any people mentioned in the Talmud can all be refuted, none of them fit the bill and in many cases are taken out of context. Showing one Rabbi with a different opinion doesnt matter, during the Holocaust the chief rabbi of Rome converted to catholocism to save his life, Jews are humans and do weird things sometimes. Yeshu, Baalam, R pappa and all the others that christianity tried to blame on the Jews as insulting to Jesus, so they could justify their violent history against them, are not Yeshua. They neither fit his description, his time period, his actions, his name, those close to him, nothing.

I ask you to look again at: http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/ There is ALOT of negative comments about the Talmud and they almost ALL come from the Internet. Why dont you personally study the Talmud yourself? You would be more than welcome to attend any synagogue and enquire within.

Can we please stay on topic with this thread?

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[simchat_torah]

HT: The talmud also teaches against Jesus / Yeshua.
Actually, Higher Truth, there was a Jewish convention that discussed whether any of the mentioned Yeshuas in the Talmud were the christian messiah. It was determined that they were all other Yeshuas, and not one was the first century Yeshua who claimed to be the messiah (I'll provide specific info later). It was a common name at the time. Our messiah, Yeshua, was never once mentioned in the Talmud.

Hix is correct.

This is a conflicting statement. The talmud is a historical document, not inspired text.
It is not a conflicting statement. It is their personal view. You personally view that the Talmud has no inspiration.

I appreciate your informing me of this Hix. Do you have a copy of the babylonian talmud on CD by any chance?

I do.

I also have several of the volumes in hardcover published by ArtScroll.

[simchat_torah]

ahhh... Higher truth, now I know why you think such... I found an article on your favorite site, seekgod, that illustrates where the Talmud curses Jesus, etc. However, every single passage in the Talmud that references 'jesus' or Yeshu, or Yeshua turns out to be someone else.

As I stated earlier, I shall provide info in a bit.

[simchat_torah]

This website categorically goes through each Talmudic reference of 'jesus' and shows how it does not apply to Y'shua HaMoshiach:
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html
and
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesus.html

Again, I will post concerning the Jewish council in a bit.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

I also have several of the volumes in hardcover published by ArtScroll.


HT:

Oh yes....Artscroll:

From the ArtScroll Tenach preface:

"In the Chumash portion of this work, the translation follows Rashi, the "Father of Commentators".. In the Prophets and the Writings, however ..we are more eclectic ... utilizes all the classic commentators such as Targum, Ramban, Radak, Ralbag, Ibn Ezra, Kara, Metzudos, Malbim and others."


Song of Songs 7
A fairly literal translation from Masoretic text:

Let us rise up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flowers and the blossom opens, and the pomegranates bud forth. There I will give my loves to You.
The love apples give a scent, and over our doors are all excellent fruits; new, also old, I have laid up for You, my Beloved.

JPS Tenach 1917

Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see whether the vine hath budded, whether the vine-blossom be opened, and the pomegranates be in flower; there will I give thee my love.
The mandrakes give forth fragrance, and at our doors are all manner of precious fruits, new and old, which I have laid up for thee, O my beloved.



Song of Songs 7:12-13 [ArtScroll]
Let us wake at dawn in vineyards of prayer and study.
Let us see if students of Writ have budded,
if students of Oral Law have blossomed,
if ripened scholars have bloomed;
there I will display my finest products to you

I am running an OS that at this time is not supporting Hebrew fonts, but we can take a look at this which is put up left to right:

duwday nathan reyach pethach meged chadash yashan tsaphan dowd [anyone see oral law or students in there?]


Song of Songs 6
a fairly literal translation from Masoretic text:

Sixty of them are queens, and eighty concubines, and virgins without number.

JPS Tenach 1917

8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and maidens without number.

Song of Songs 6:8 [ArtScroll]
The queenly offspring of Abraham are sixty,
compared to whom the eighty Noachides and all their countless nations are like mere concubines"

shishshiym malkah shemoniym piylegesh almah micpar [anyone see the Hebrew word for Noachides in there?]

[simchat_torah]

ok?

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

Actually, Higher Truth, there was a Jewish convention that discussed whether any of the mentioned Yeshuas in the Talmud were the christian messiah. It was determined that they were all other Yeshuas, and not one was the first century Yeshua who claimed to be the messiah (I'll provide specific info later). It was a common name at the time. Our messiah, Yeshua, was never once mentioned in the Talmud.

Hix is correct.

HT:

You guys better contact Rabbi Lapin and inform him then...... and some of the Messianic Jewish rabbi's that I have spoken with who also admit this to be true.

Simchat:

ahhh... Higher truth, now I know why you think such... I found an article on your favorite site, seekgod, that illustrates where the Talmud curses Jesus, etc.

HT:

seekgod is one of the many sites that I review. I find this site interresting because it is from a Christian perspective. The Messianic organizations have done a very anemic job of policing the insanity that is rampant in the Messianic movement. They point much of this out, as well as shining a HUGE spotlight on the errors of the Christian church.

[simchat_torah]

You guys better contact Rabbi Lapin and inform him then
No thanks. He can do his own homework.

and some of the Messianic Jewish rabbi's that I have spoken with who also admit this to be true.

Oh! Well, if a MESSIANIC Rabbi says its true, it must be! *gasp* Because we all know the level of scholarship among messianics is so trustworthy.

;)

Ok, seriously, how many 'messianic' RABBIS are there? I have met dozens upon dozens of mesianic leaders who falsely lay claim to the title 'rabbi' without any Rabbinical training. I know of two messianic leaders who have an honest to goodness Simcha from a Yeshivah.

seekgod is one of the many sites that I review.... funny, I thought you were a webmaster there ;) I'm just kidding HT. You know I had to give you a hard time.

[Charlesinflorida]

HT.,

I too have the Talmud both on my computer and some in hardback from Soncino. When I looked for most of these accusitory passages; they turned out to be dead ends or comments that were taken out of context or fragments of lines pieced together. I could not reproduce any of these alleged statements of hatred of Christians or comments about Jesus.

In so far as inspired text goes, I think you are not too familiar with how books were considered for the canon of scripture (in the Tanakh). My next statement many even Messianics will no doubt grisstle at but I will say it: I do not believe Paul intended or had any idea that his letters to the congregations would ever be considered canon material. Never! He never refutes the scriptues of his day which was the LXX and the Hebrew Text of the Tanakh. There are a few places where he corrects the quotes in the LXX with a reading from the Hebrew but by and large was satisfied with the LXX as a working canon of holy scripture.He never put forward his word as being given rom the Lord other than where he states so very clearly and limits it to a single statement and not all his writings in general. I suspect further that his letter to the Galatians was never meant to go beyond that church, as it was written with a great deal of Irony and with more than a little sarcasm, because this was Paul, using the pen to chastise a group he was very concerned about.

It was not until seveal hundred years later that Pauls writings were firmly decided upon as something to consider as inspiried, or directed by God. If you read Pauls writings in the propper chronological order in which they were written, making Romans a last piece instead of a first piece as it is placed, you find that Paul even mellows on some issues over the years and changes his positon a bit for example in his eschatology. I know that Pauls writing are older than most of the Gospels and that makes them valuable, but are they meant to be Holy scripture? Peter said that many of Pauls words were difficult to understand and those who were weak could misuse them. And that has happened many times. The church bases their anti-Semetic policy from his writings, by taking what he said out of it's Hebraic context. Almost every peacher I have ever heard on the Radio or TV misuse his writings and fabricate outlandish doctrine from them.

Charles in Florida

[Higher Truth]

Simchat;

funny, I thought you were a webmaster there I'm just kidding HT. You know I had to give you a hard time.

HT:

Thats okay Simchat....I'll get even later...just kidding.

The rabbis that I know have real education, and are not wanna be's. I know what you are saying though. This movement has it's share of phonies. Some of them came out of secular Jewish homes and became instant rabbis.

[simchat_torah]

Some of them came out of secular Jewish homes and became instant rabbis.
How very true.

I have known many who were even christians with a pastoral education and background... then suppose themselves to be 'rabbis' simply because they are now following messianism.

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Higher Truth,

It was in the Paris Disputation of 1241, where was officially and legally determined that none of the references in the Talmud to Jesus were about the Christian Jesus. It was this Jewish council that made the authoritative stance that none of the 'jesus', or yeshu, or yeshua passages in the Talmud were in reference to the christian messiah.

Shalom!
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

I recalled it was in the 13th century, but I had to turn to BrookLaw to help me find where exactly this took place (and when). It was some time ago that I had studied this particular debate, and to be honest, I didn't keep very refined notes ;)


shalom,
yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Charles stated:

In so far as inspired text goes, I think you are not too familiar with how books were considered for the canon of scripture (in the Tanakh). My next statement many even Messianics will no doubt grisstle at but I will say it: I do not believe Paul intended or had any idea that his letters to the congregations would ever be considered canon material. Never!

HT:

Let's examine the above statement in light of this:

Acts 9
10 And there was a certain disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, Ananias! And he said, Behold, Lord, I am here.
11 And the Lord said to him, Rising up pass along on the street being called Straight and seek a Tarsian, Saul by name, in the house of Judas. For, behold, he is praying.
12 And he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in and putting a hand on him, so that he may see again.
13 And Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many bad things he did to Your saints in Jerusalem.
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all the ones calling on Your name.
15 And the Lord said to him, Go, for this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.
16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of My name.
17 And Ananias went away and entered into the house. And putting hands on him he said, Brother Saul, the Lord has sent me, Jesus, the One who appeared to you in the highway on which you came, that you may see and be filled of the Holy Spirit.
18 And instantly it was as if scales fell away from his eyes. And rising up at the thing happening, he was baptized.


And this:


Acts 22
12 And a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the Law, having been testified to by all the Jews living there,
13 coming to me and standing by, he said to me, Brother Saul, look up. And in the same hour I looked up on him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers appointed you to know His will, and to see the Just One, and to hear a voice out of His mouth;
15 for you shall be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.

HT:

So we are told that Yeshua chose Paul to be a witness for Him to all men. In order to be a witness to future [all] men, Paul's writings would be a very important part. And we are also told that he was appointed by God to know His will and hear the voice of Yeshua.


Charles:

It was not until seveal hundred years later that Pauls writings were firmly decided upon as something to consider as inspiried, or directed by God.



HT:

I cannot agree with the above statement, and here is why:


2 Timothy 3 [written by Paul 60 ce.]
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

2 Peter 3 [written by Peter 64 ce.]
15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him;
16 as also in * all * his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Notice that Peter says in ALL of his [Paul's] epistles [letters] meaning plural. Then Peter goes on to state "as also they do the * rest * of the Scriptures". Also notice that Peter's account was written after Paul's directive in 2 Timothy.


Let's examine what Yeshua said about this:


John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

In the scripture above, Jesus establishes that the writings of His disciples are inspired and authoritative. If this were not true, then how could future generations * believe on Jesus * unless it was through the apostles written word? Keep in mind that Jesus is the beginning and the end.He is the Word made manifest.

Here is another example which shows that the New Testament writings were considered scripture by the apostles. This occurs when Paul quotes two separate verses, as being [one] scripture: one part from the Old Testament [Deuteronomy], one from the New Testament [ Gospel of Luke -authored by Luke ce. 56-58]

This is Paul quoting Deuteronomy 25:4 [first part] and Luke 10:7 [second part]

1 Timothy 5 [authored by Paul ce 61-64]
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward [misthos 3408]

Here are the two complete scriptures that make up Paul's singular quote:

Deuteronomy 25
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out [the corn].

Luke 10
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: * for the labourer is worthy of his hire[misthos 3408]*. Go not from house to house.

[Atkin]

Shalom Higher Truth,

It was in the Paris Disputation of 1241, where was officially and legally determined that none of the references in the Talmud to Jesus were about the Christian Jesus. It was this Jewish council that made the authoritative stance that none of the 'jesus', or yeshu, or yeshua passages in the Talmud were in reference to the christian messiah.

Shalom!
Yafet.
It depends on whether the animosity felt by the religious authorities who felt threatened by Yeshua and confronted him, ever leaked into future Rabbinic Judaism. If so, then it would be tough for them to convince anyone that they do not have those same feelings.

Of course, being "official" about it in Paris may be convincing.:)

[Charlesinflorida]

HT:

So we are told that Yeshua chose Paul to be a witness for Him to all men. In order to be a witness to future [all] men, Paul's writings would be a very important part. And we are also told that he was appointed by God to know His will and hear the voice of Yeshua.

HT.,

I am not in any way disputing Pauls election or validity as an apostle or his authority to witness. Many men were witnesses who did not leave a written record. We can name a few just from the scriptures, such as the disciples, John the immerser and even Nikodemis, perhaps others. Certainly Paul's words have been a key to us, because he, being the "Pharisee of Pharises", understood the scriptures and the sacrifices and saw the Messiah clearly depicted in all of these things.

Charles:

It was not until seveal hundred years later that Pauls writings were firmly decided upon as something to consider as inspiried, or directed by God.

HT:

I cannot agree with the above statement, and here is why:


2 Timothy 3 [written by Paul 60 ce.]
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

HT,

Absolutely, however by "Scripture" Paul is refering to the Tanakh only. There was not New testament at that time! All the scripture he quotes is LXX or Massorec Text of Tankh. Pauls writings, were circulated in the early church. But so also was the Odes of Solomon, Bell and the dragon, I Enoch, The writings of the Maccabees. But these were not Canon scripture at the time.

2 Peter 3 [written by Peter 64 ce.]
15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him;
16 as also in * all * his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Notice that Peter says in ALL of his [Paul's] epistles [letters] meaning plural. Then Peter goes on to state "as also they do the * rest * of the Scriptures". Also notice that Peter's account was written after Paul's directive in 2 Timothy.

I agree that Pter does consider Pauls writings to be Holy Writ. Does this mean they were in fact Canonized at that time? No. In fact the book of Acts which is largely taken up with the story of Paul does not quote Pauls writings or make reference to/from them. What Paul does sem to beleive about his own wrtings is his authority to present Halachah for proper application of Tanakh. This is what Paul does best. It is a shame that the Church mostly se's Paul as being anyinomial when in fact he is always explaining how Yeshua is the focus of the typology of the Tanakh, the thing at which it points.

None the less there is no other incidence of this possible New testment reference in the New testament writings, that is to say we do not see the New testament writers making quotes from other contempories. So how do we explain the seeming Lukian quote? There were writings such as the Didash or collections of the sayings of Yeshua which were being circulated at the time, and these may have served as source material for Luke or Mark, and later John.


Let's examine what Yeshua said about this:


John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

In the scripture above, Jesus establishes that the writings of His disciples are inspired and authoritative. If this were not true, then how could future generations * believe on Jesus * unless it was through the apostles written word? Keep in mind that Jesus is the beginning and the end.He is the Word made manifest.

Here is another example which shows that the New Testament writings were considered scripture by the apostles. This occurs when Paul quotes two separate verses, as being [one] scripture: one part from the Old Testament [Deuteronomy], one from the New Testament [ Gospel of Luke -authored by Luke ce. 56-58]

This is Paul quoting Deuteronomy 25:4 [first part] and Luke 10:7 [second part]

1 Timothy 5 [authored by Paul ce 61-64]
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward [misthos 3408]

Here are the two complete scriptures that make up Paul's singular quote:

Deuteronomy 25
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out [the corn].

Luke 10
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: * for the labourer is worthy of his hire[misthos 3408]*. Go not from house to house.

Does the Lord expect the writings of Paul to be Canon? Perhaps. why not. No surprises for the Lord. But that does not mean that Paul felt this way about his own writing during his days.

Charles in Florida

[Higher Truth]

HT:

I cannot agree with the above statement, and here is why:

2 Timothy 3 [written by Paul 60 ce.]
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.


Charles:

Absolutely, however by "Scripture" Paul is refering to the Tanakh only.


HT:

Let's take a look at all of the books that were completed before Paul made this statement:

Matthew [41 ce]
1 Thess [50 ce]
2 Thess [51 ce]
Galatians [50 -52 ce]
1 Corinth [55 ce]
2 Corinth [55 ce]
Romans [56 ce]
Luke [56-58 ce]

Then we have these books completed around the time 2nd Timothy was written:

Ephesians
Collosians
Philemon
Phillippians
Hebrews
Acts

The New Testament has been around for almost two thousand years. I have no interest in trying to second guess the Almighty. Yeshua is the Word made manifest, and He spoke many of the words recorded in the NT texts, therefore I personally believe that it was meant to be Scripture from the beginning of time , but more importantly, so did Peter of whom the Messiah said:


Matthew 16
17 And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.

[Charlesinflorida]

ht,

I am reasonably certain that you will not be able to find one single scholar who will agree with your position that Pauls writing were canonized or even in book form while he was alive, or that he considered anything other than the Tanakh as scripture. You have taken a position that can not be validated. Paul was a humble servant of God with a steadfast opionion that his commission as apostle was as valid as any of the other apostles and the others like Peter and James agreed concerning this. But there is simply no hint that he considered his letters to the churches to be "scripture". Nor do the other apostle concider his writings to be scripture. They are (were) Halachah only and as such could be considered inspired, so long as they supported scripture.

But allow me to set before you something that you must deal with if you really believe what you have stated; If Pauls writing were considered scripture and worthy of canonization in his own lifetime, then the test for canon is that what is writen must agree with and not refute anything that has already been given by the Lord in Torah. This means that you must begin to look for agreement between Paul and Torah, because Paul upholds Torah completely and if his writings change anything from what was given in Torah it is heretical and could not be canon. This is the test that was given by those who ultimately did canonize the new testament. These men were not as far from the Torah as the Apostate church is today.

Charles in Florida

[ShirChadash]

But allow me to set before you something that you must deal with if you really believe what you have stated; If Pauls writing were considered scripture and worthy of canonization in his own lifetime, then the test for canon is that what is writen must agree with and not refute anything that has already been given by the Lord in Torah. This means that you must begin to look for agreement between Paul and Torah, because Paul upholds Torah completely and if his writings change anything from what was given in Torah it is heretical and could not be canon. This is the test that was given by those who ultimately did canonize the new testament. These men were not as far from the Torah as the Apostate church is today.


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