Why Jews Reject Jesus

[Charlesinflorida]

Several comments have come up in a few threads that indicate various reasons that Jesus was rejectd by the Jews. For example, one persons sets forth that the Talmud teaches that Jesus was a "******* son of an prostitute" and therefore they ae taught rom children to hate Jesus and Christians ect.

I will make this statement and allow you to add to it or tear it up as you feel necessary.

First point the Jews of the first century didn't reject Yeshua the true messiah. The first converts to faith in Yeshua were almost entirely Jewish men. Scripture tells us that very many of the priests also blieved. (John 12)

Thousands of the Jews were coming to faith in the beginning. So what stopped this influx? Was it fear of persecution? No, most of those who were martyred were Jewish believers and the church continued to grow in number and in strength.

The church fell from within when Constantine in the 4th century ordered the blending of the true Messianic Judaism with the worship of the Pagan god Mithra. When Jesus replaced Yeshua, and Christmas replace Tabernacles, and Easter replaced Passover, and Sunday replaced the sabbath, THEN Christianity became a lawless (without foundation in Torah) religion that needed to be rejected by the Jews. And it WAS rejected by the Jews and the true Messianics. Along with it, it is decided that the new Gentile Church replaces Israel in all the pomises of God and Grace replaces law(God's instruction). Church traditon (fabrications) become more important than Gods word!

The Jews did not reject Yeshua. They rejected Paganized Christianity which perverted Gods eternal words, and replaced them with "church Doctrine" which was written by men who hated the Messianics and the Jews and hunted them down like vermin and killed them.

Yet what was the mission given to the church by the Lord? That we are to be His witnesses. Where? In Jerusalem, FIRST, in Judea, Next, and after that to the ends of the earth. Our first responsibility is to the Jews to witness to them. Yet how can the church do this when it hates the Jews and rejects the truth of Gods word and tries to witness to them with a fabricated twisted theology that was contrived in the 4th century? It can not be done.

When our Jewish brothers learn the truth that Yeshua Kept the Torah, was obedient to the law, and called his followers to do the same, they are astounded. And they are interested! When they learn that you also are Torah observant and not different from them except for the Joy that comes from knowing God in a personal way, through Messiah Yeshua they are driven to jealousy. And this is what Paul says should happen. Not replacing Judaism but rather going the way of Ruth and stating "Your People are mine -Your God is my God", and in the process digging out more treasures and peace and Joy and blessing than they ever realized themselves. This is what witnesses to the Jews. And this is our responsibilty or mission, never completed by the church, which set it to the side to advance their Roman religion to the unlearned heathens of the world.

I know that C.F. will frown upon this kind of post, because of our Christian cousines feelings might be hurt, but truth must be stated and held on to. The more that excuses are made the deeper the falshood becomes. Jews do not reject Messiah Yeshua. They reject Christianity and its Pagan ways. They have dificulty with Messianics because they believe it is just a Church wearing a Kiipah, and do not see it as a body of Jews who are Torah observant and who know the true and living Messiah.

Charles In Florida

[Atkin]

Your points regarding the catholic manipulation and new introductions are true.
[2 commandment etc]

Many people may also assume (possibly wrongly) that majority of Jews may be more accomodating to the various schools of thought in Judaism that firmly reject Y'shua hence the friction. If there were other branches of Judaism that also asserted themselves as standing for Yeshua without the Christian leanings, the assumption of Jews
being more in tune with Non Messiah Judaism would have reduced.

The way it is, it is up to people to really speak the facts and over time, this would improve the situation.

[BenTsion]

Charles,
Great post! However, I don't think non-believing Jews are without their share of blame.
Remember the Bar Kochba incident, which led Messianic Jews to be labelled traitors.
The fact is that both Christians and Jews of that time fell to Satan's schemes of corrupting the original faith and of making sure Israel as a majority rejected their salvation. However, Satan can only act if you give him space, therefore Christians and Jews are both responsible.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[simchat_torah]

The church fell from within when Constantine in the 4th century ordered the blending of the true Messianic Judaism with the worship of the Pagan god Mithra. When Jesus replaced Yeshua, and Christmas replace Tabernacles, and Easter replaced Passover, and Sunday replaced the sabbath, THEN Christianity became a lawless (without foundation in Torah) religion that needed to be rejected by the Jews.

While this statement is quite true, I would like to point out that this process of division between the Netzarim (messianics) and the Jews started long before Constantine. Constantine only capitolized on the division that was already created and finalized the division.

I provided this short excerpt of my historical analysis in another thread, but I'll share it here again. The following list is only a partial account of the division between the Netzarim and the Jews:

1) The destruction of the Temple.
This led to the removal of Jewish identity nealry globally. But this is more of a general sense than something specific to MJ'ism.

2) The decision of the Netzarim to not support Bar Kochba as HaMoshiach.
When the Netzarim (messianic Jews of the first century) decided not to support the Bar Kochba revolt, because of Kochba's claims of Messiahship, the Jews saw this as not giving support to Israel. This caused a rather large schism between the messianics and the rest of the Jews.

3) The similiarity between the Qumran/Essenic community and the Netzarim.
Because the Essenes were so violently rejected by the general populace, when Y'shua and his followers resembled the Qumran community they were quickly rejected by the mass majority of Jewish people.

4) The overwhelming majority of Gentiles that came as an influx nearly wiped the Jewish identity of the faith and religion of Messianics. This was not just a cultural loss, but also a loss of Jewish doctrine and theology.

5) The Flight to Pella in 70ce resulted in many Messianics fleeing to hide in caves and in the wilderness. The Netzarim fled because of the statements made by Y'shua that the destruction of Jerusalem was coming. Many of the Jews saw this as weakness and thought less of the messianics because of this retreat.

6) Beginning in 90ce many of the outspoken messianics were kicked out of the Synagogue. This led to more division between the Netzarim and the Pharisees who held control of the Rabbinate Court.


These among many other reasons led to the great division between the Messianics and the Jews. Of course, the final straw was the Nicean council in 325 when the Jewish believers were not allowed to even come! It was at this point that the Jewish Believers completely lost the Jewish identity of the Messianic faith. At that point, Constantine only capitolized on an already losing battle. There was no longer a Jewish influence on the Messianic expression of "christianity".

Having originally started out as a sect of Judaism, through all of the outlined historical events (and many others I did not mention) it changed into a new religion named "christianity" and resembles little to nothing of Judaism.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Charlesinflorida]

I agree with both of you. . . to be sure, there were several factors. In the beginning Judaism had exclusion from Roman cerimonial rules and ceasar worship. They were given freedom to exercise their religion without compromising to Pagan things. The Church was given the same allowance because it was seen as a sect of Jews and nothing more.(And that was exactly what the church was) Then zealots like Bar Koacbah with the initiation of the Jewish wars brought Roman pressure and eventually persecution upon all Jews including the Messianic faction. This caused the church to try and differentiate themselve from the rest of the Jews and to identify themselves as passefists. This made them traitors to the Jews and the Messianics bear this lable to this day. Yes I agree.
But if we are to learn anything from Torah it is the often repeated lesson that compromise with Pagan ways is a sure receipe for disaster. The Lord will bring judgment and a scattering of his people. The Ten north tribes into the nations the southern kingdom into Babylon and the church into the Pagan world. The Gospel preached from the pulpits of the world since that time has always been a mixtue of truth and Paganized religion affirmed through years of tradition.

But what of those faithful ones who were hiding out in the mountains of Pella? Do they exist today under another banner? What of those Jews who remained in Judea but limited their Messianic faith to a small private group?, are they still with us today? I think they are. The Lord always preserves a remnant that will hear His voice. And at the right time he brings them into the open. Look at this Hebraic revival of Messianic Judaism, how it springs up like a well of fresh water all over the barren earth. Like Moses jabbing his staff into the dry ground, "Spring up O' Well!" and suddenly where it was barren and dry comes forth fresh living water, cool and life giving. But as soon as it does, it comes under attack from the apostate, who doubt that anything but the status-quo can be the truth, especially after such a long time in power.

Are we part of this picture painted for us from the pages o Tanakh?

Charles In Florida

[BenTsion]

Charles,
Nothing is more reassuring than being under attack by both Christians and non-Messianic Jews. When we look at the reason we're being attacked, it makes us blessed in the eyes of the L-RD. Christianity attacks us because we refuse to put aside G-d's word and because we're crying out for the sanctification of the Bride. Non-Messianics Jews often "pick up stones" much like they did when they stood up against the prophets of old, who, like us, were their very brothers and sisters. We are the descendants of those who hid in Pella. We're the remnant of the synagogue of Ya'akov, the brother of Mashiach. And we shall not rest until we see a body of believers that has been sanctified and which is united with a believing House of Israel! That is my prayer on this Shabbat!

In Messiah,
Ben Tison

[Multi-Elis]

In tenth grade, I remember learning about the distruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem. I don't remember all names any more, but I will talk about an event that I learned about, that nobody seems to have mentioned. At the assembly in Yavneh, headed by Ben Zaccai weren't issues discussed such as "what books should become part of the TaNaKh" and "what should be done to replace the sacrifices" and, most importantly to our topic "should we consider Jews who take Yeshua as their Messiah as still remaining Jews"? As for the latter question, it was officially decided that they were no longer Jews, and as for the replacement of sacrifices, it was decided that prayer and good deed would replace them. In that case what is the role of a messiah, in their point of view, if sins are now forgiven through prayer and good deeds? He is needed to save the people only from the Romans, I guess.

Do any of you remember this chapter in history? (I remember it, because it completely shook me)

[Charlesinflorida]

Ben Zaccai was involved in the reorganization after the destruction of the temple and I find his name in regards to the authority of the biet din of any given town and the decision as to how to celebrate the feast of trumpets. I could not find anything further.

[sojeru]

The Church was given the same allowance because it was seen as a sect of Jews and nothing more.(And that was exactly what the church was) Then zealots like Bar Koacbah with the initiation of the Jewish wars brought Roman pressure and eventually persecution upon all Jews including the Messianic faction. This caused the church to try and differentiate themselve from the rest of the Jews and to identify themselves as passefists.
Hi Charles, I am glad that you bring up the Pax Romana...well it has to do with this...

The Jews were called a religion and were the only ones excluded from entertaining Roman festivals (such as the ones you have stated).
the Nazarenes (some who were called Christians in a derrogatory manner) decided to seperate themselves from Judaism because of the Jewish wars- and so they did not want to meet the same fate as the any of the Jews (believing or unbelieving) so they made seperate religion from Judaism called christianity.
This led Rome to think that a new belief had sprung in similarity to Judaism- or rather that Jews were assimilating themselves into the laws of Rome and would also bring more Jews to assimilate. However, since these Christians had foresaken the practices of Rome as far as paying homage to the Roman Gods and Caesars, the Christians were seen as a Superstition and enemies of Rome (Rome hates superstitions, they only give allowance to religions [the only belief called a religion in Roman rule was Judaism])
and thus led to the Roman persecution of Christians.

[Trish1947]

I know that C.F. will frown upon this kind of post, because of our Christian cousines feelings might be hurt, but truth must be stated and held on to. The more that excuses are made the deeper the falshood becomes. Jews do not reject Messiah Yeshua. They reject Christianity and its Pagan ways. They have dificulty with Messianics because they believe it is just a Church wearing a Kiipah, and do not see it as a body of Jews who are Torah observant and who know the true and living Messiah.
Well I dont know what CF thinks about your post, But I find it very offensive that you would say that you hate our Pagan ways, and thats what divides us. I am not a Messianic, but I do know Jesus Christ as my personal savior, with out the knowledge of your Torah, or rules, or sabbaths, or rabbis, or any of your traditions. If you want to keep your traditions that is fine. But if Jesus accepted me, then whats the problem? He was the one that called me unto His Grace, as you. All it boils down to is doctrinal view of what was accomplished at the cross.

One of these days its going to dawn on all of us that it is Him that does the selecting and calling, not anything that we do or not do.. G-ds plan is bigger than we think. We need help. Wouldn't Heaven be sort of one sided if it was just full of Torah observant Jews? Or full of "pagan ways" Christians. All who accept G-ds sacrifice are accepted. He is Lord over all of it. MY MOTTO: THINK BIGGER!!.

[BenTsion]

Well I dont know what CF thinks about your post, But I find it very offensive that you would say that you hate our Pagan ways, and thats what divides us. I am not a Messianic, but I do know Jesus Christ as my personal savior, with out the knowledge of your Torah, or rules, or sabbaths, or rabbis, or any of your traditions. If you want to keep your traditions that is fine.


Calling the Torah a 'tradition' is as much an offense to us and a divisive factor as saying Christianity is permeated with paganism. What you call 'tradition', we call the Word of the Living G-d.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Trish1947]

Calling the Torah a 'tradition' is as much an offense to us and a divisive factor as saying Christianity is permeated with paganism. What you call 'tradition', we call the Word of the Living G-d.
Where in my post did I say that the Torah was a tradition? I said if you want to keep your traditions that is fine. The Torah is part of the Word of G-d that we have in our Bible also. So you misunderstood my intent. I was referring to observences of feist days, sabbaths, holydays.. etc. I found Jesus Christ not knowing anything about the Torah. That was 50 years ago.. No offense should be taken.

[iitb]

I was referring to observences of feist days, sabbaths, holydays.. etc.
Not trying to be mean or anything, but all of that stuff can be found in the Torah. :)

[Charlesinflorida]

Trish1947,

I understand what you are saying. We are all saved through Grace. Even the very first Gentiles were saved the same way, but the disciples admonished them to go on from the realization of their election for salvation and to show themselve approved, by obedience to Gods law.

Yeshua Himself said "If you love me, then keep my comandments." John says,"If you say that you love him and keep not his comandments then you are aliar and there is no truth in you." Now I am not saying this of you in particular. What I am showing you is that we have a responsibility to go on from new born babes, concerning the issues of faith and baptisms ect and go on to mature righteous living. God tells us what that looks like in His Torah. Torah (and the Tanakh) according to Paul is used for bringing us to righteous works.

Look at Act 15:20 and we see what was prescribed for the Gentile Pagan converts. They are to practice certain Kosher laws conerning food and righteous behavior so that they can enter into fellowship with more mature believers and then they are instructed to attend the local synagogues in their own towns to study Torah (Moses) there each Sabbath.

AC 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. [20] Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. [21] For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Learning the Torah is key importance!

NU 15:13 " `Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. [14] For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. [15] The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: [16] The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.' "

Same rules for both Israel and the Gentiles who are attached to them. Neither Paul nor Yeshua ever abrogate the Torah. It is foundational. To destroy it you destroy the New testament which is built upon it and the Messiah, who is the fruit of it. Think of it, without the Old Testament (Tanakh) then the New testament is only a first century copy of the "national enquirer".
Man heals 10 lepers. Man from Galiless raises the dead. Crucified man seen alive by hundreds in Judea. Who would ever believe it?!! It is because all that Messiah Yeshua was and did is fortold in Tanakh that makes it a truth you can rely on. Desregard Torah and make it of no value, and you destroy the foundation of Yeshua as the Messiah!

You say "Your Torah". It is not my Torah it is God's Torah and as such it is also YOUR Torah!

Yeshua said "Not one Jot nor Tiddle of the law shall pass away!" It is all valid for today.

Charles In Florida

[BenTsion]

The Torah is part of the Word of G-d that we have in our Bible also. So you misunderstood my intent.

OK, I'm glad that you cleared that up. However, I'd like to point out that a lot of you call 'tradition' is actually coming straight from the Torah, such as wearing a tallit, dietary laws, putting a mezuzzah on our doors - Christians often think of these things as traditions and they are not, they are commandments.


I found Jesus Christ not knowing anything about the Torah.


I have a hard time believing you found out about Him without knowing anything about the Torah. If not from the Torah where then did you get the notion that you were a sinner and that you needed to be atoned for? If you say you read it in the NT, now that it was a direct reference to the Torah, so, in other words, it is impossible to really really REALLY know Yeshua without having some knowledge of the Torah.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Trish1947,


Well I dont know what CF thinks about your post, But I find it very offensive that you would say that you hate our Pagan ways, and thats what divides us.

Allow me to humbly point out that there honestly are many pagan practices within the 'church' of today. In fact, christianity, for the most part, recognizes these pagan adaptations. However, it is a fundamental part of Judaism to reject all forms of paganism. Thus, these additions to the christian faith are in fact a dividing point among the two camps of believers.

This is not said in such a way to cause offense, but rather as a statement of fact. It simply is a dividing point.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

I'd like to point out that a lot of you call 'tradition' is actually coming straight from the Torah, such as wearing a tallit, dietary laws, putting a mezuzzah on our doors

Actually, no.

;)

Tallit
The Tzitzit were founded in the Torah, but the Tallit is an addition.

Dietary Laws
While Kashrut is defined in scripture, much of what makes meats, etc labelled 'kosher' comes from halacha.

mezzuzah
While the torah ordains the 'nailing to the door' the Sh'ma, no where does it define how it should be done. This all comes from tradition and halacha.

hehe, so while you are right... it is only partially so. ;)

Shalom!
Yafet.

[Trish1947]

I have a hard time believing you found out about Him without knowing anything about the Torah. If not from the Torah where then did you get the notion that you were a sinner and that you needed to be atoned for? If you say you read it in the NT, now that it was a direct reference to the Torah, so, in other words, it is impossible to really really REALLY know Yeshua without having some knowledge of the Torah.

No Torah involved in my conversion, shemchat_ torah, I was always since a small child wondered if there was really a God. So I asked him. I remember my grandmother telling me the story of Jesus.. Thats all it took. I knew I was a sinner when I stole my first candy bar from a store. I knew that if there was a God he would not approve. You dont need the Torah, telling you that your a sinner, The Bible says that "In every man there is the knowledge of God. So there's really no excuse was my thinking.

[BenTsion]

While the torah ordains the 'nailing to the door' the Sh'ma, no where does it define how it should be done. This all comes from tradition and halacha.
hehe, so while you are right... it is only partially so.


I know that there is halacha involved in it, and that there is tradition as to HOW to keep these mitzvot. However, my point was that these things would be dismissed by Christians as MERELY tradition.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[ShirChadash]

Shalom Trish. Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have been involved in your coming to faith in Messiah. And Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have had a thing to do with your acceptance of the gift of salvation. However may I mention this: Have you ever heard, ever in your entire life, even once, that you are a "sinner" who needed salvation? Where do you suppose that idea originated? Someone, somewhere, at some time, learned from the Torah that G-d has standards for His people, and that to fall short of those standards is sin, which requires repentance and atonement. Torah was definitely involved somewhere along the line, somehow, in order for you to be saved, since you don't realize that you need a savior if you have no understanding that you sin -- and SIN is only SIN because G-d calls it so, in His Torah.

Torah is teaching which instructs us how to go forward to live as a new creation in Yeshua once we are in Him and have his Spirit. Torah is instruction in how to live as G-d expects His children to live, according to HIS standards.

Yeshua said, "If you love Me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. When the Messiah spoke these words, the only commandments that had been handed down to the followers of our mighty G-d were the "Old Testament" commandments, and the "New Testament" writings were not yet remotely in existence. So which commandments do you suppose Yeshua was telling His followers to embrace and follow?

Furthermore, in verse 16 then, Yeshua proceeds to tell us HOW we will be enabled to keep the commandments (which is through the power of His Holy Spirit which He will send) 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Yeshua was a Jew. He was born a Jew and died a Jew and the fact remains that the faith OF Yeshua was Biblical Judaism. The only religion ever handed down from G-d to man, given by G-d for His children to follow once they recognized Him as G-d, was Biblical Judaism.

As a non-Jew thoroughly and well-taught in "christianity",
I must say that I am now leaving behind what has become a faith ABOUT "Jesus" and embracing the faith OF Yeshua... I am embracing and seek to now learn the faith that Yeshua (as the Word of G-d, the Memra) handed down to His people in the TaNaKh... the faith that Yeshua also established (maybe ratified is a good word?) and correctly interpreted in the Brit Chadasha... the faith that Yeshua told His followers to embrace and follow by the power of His Spirit.

Yeshua doesn't save us to then merely leave us in the same place where He finds us -- He grows us, and expects us to follow Him with passion as He grows us. We are free from the law of sin and death to now follow the Torah of Life, by the power of His Holy Spirit working within us. No practice found in Torah is mere tradition... these are the teachings of G-d, given by the Word of G-d (Yeshua), through the power of the Spirit of G-d and filled-full by the Son of G-d when He came, Messiah Yeshua. I believe that studying, embracing and following G-d's teaching for His children -- HIS Torah -- is a vital part of a mature and growing walk of faith in our Messiah.

Just my $.02

Many blessings!

[Trish1947]

Shalom Trish. Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have been involved in your coming to faith in Messiah. And Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have had a thing to do with your acceptance of the gift of salvation
Well the laws of God we're in effect in the universe even before the Ten Comandments we're given. There was 8 people that new Gods laws in their hearts before the earth was flooded. There was some people that had knowledge of Gods laws before he distroyed Sodom and Gahmorra, right? Like I said the knowledge of God is in every man, if he wants to listen.

[simchat_torah]

No Torah involved in my conversion, shemchat_ torah
1) It was someone else who addressed this issue.
2) It's actually "simchat_torah"
3) Torah may not have been explicitly mentioned in your conversion, however, Torah is what defines sin.

Shalom!
Yafet.

[Charlesinflorida]

Trish,

Yeshua died to cleanse us from Sin. Sin defined by scripture is "Breaking the law (of God). If Yeshua was going to abolish the law, then there was no need to die a bloodly ugly death to forgive transgressions of the law that he was in the process of abolishing.

You are correct in saying that there is an eternal nature to Gods law. If we read Torah: Gen 26 we find some very interesting words about Abraham, who is the father of those who are saved through faith.

[4] I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring* all nations on earth will be blessed, [5] because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

There is a part of all of us, call it conscience, that even the most debased individual contains a bit of truth, enough to draw him toward repentance. Abraham, knew God in a strong and personal way, enough to know the details of his commandments. Perhaps your grandmother had this kind of relationship.
But most of us, inluding your grandmother I suspect, learned what she knew about God and what He equires of us through the Torah. This is passed on to our children by moral nurturing. Yet for the church much of this revelation has been abolished, abolished by the church but not by God. Where does God even once say that the Sabbath is no longer the Sabbath, but that it is replaced by another day, especially the day that all Pagans in history seem to observe, the vernible day of the Sun? What does the Lord Say?

Ex 31: [16] The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. [17] It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "

As one saved through the Jewish Messiah of Israel, are you not grafted in to Israel?
Is the Pagan church traditions of Roman Mithraism which entered the church in the 4th century more important that obedience to the eternal father?

Charles In Florida

[simchat_torah]

FYI, without the Torah, there would be no messiah.

[ShirChadash]

Shalom Trish :) Just my usual disclaimer, please keep in mind as you read this, I speak only for myself and my family.

Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have been involved in your coming to faith in Messiah. And Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have had a thing to do with your acceptance of the gift of salvation
...meaning, if you are saying that you see Torah as only the old testament laws governing Jews, or as applying only to Jews or to people before they believe in Yeshua, then I can see where you might think Torah had nothing to do with your conversion and salvation process.

Well the laws of God we're in effect in the universe even before the Ten Comandments we're given. There was 8 people that new Gods laws in their hearts before the earth was flooded. There was some people that had knowledge of Gods laws before he distroyed Sodom and Gahmorra, right? Like I said the knowledge of God is in every man, if he wants to listen.
Aha -- again we totally agree. And I am so glad you stated this, because I think it is a Truth that so many miss... "Well the laws of God we're in effect in the universe even before the Ten Comandments we're given. " YES! John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d and the Word was G-d. If we believe that Yeshua is the Word of G-d, (Hebrew, "Memra"), then we realize that G-d gave His Torah teaching through Yeshua, His Word, by the power of the Spirit of G-d. There is no way the standards of Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) can be SEPARATED from Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit); There has never been and there will not be an end to the Law of Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) for believers in Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) until heaven and earth pass away, and Yeshua said so Himself; G-d's standards for us today are the same standards that He has always had, always and forever in time past and in times to come; and following the commandments/standards of Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) is part and parcel of the worship of Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) and belonging to Elohim. Our G-d truly IS unchanging.

There was 8 people that new Gods laws in their hearts before the earth was flooded. There was some people that had knowledge of Gods laws before he distroyed Sodom and Gahmorra, right? Right on. And the worship of G-d has never been separate from following His Teaching/ "Law". Even Cain and Abel knew to bring sacrifices, and when Cain brought the "wrong" sacrifice, G-d rebuked Him and then later said, "Why are you angry? If you do well, will you not also be accepted?" This implies Cain knew the "right" thing to do, the "right" sacrifice to bring, and G-d was essentially saying, "Hey what right do you have to be angry? Cain, I TOLD you what to bring and how to do this, but you chose your own way."

-------------------------------------

So... if what G-d expects of His people is clear and is in our hearts, why read the Torah and study it, why worry about following it? (This is what we gentiles think.) HM. A question for anyone who is reading... Do you ever need reminding of anything that you should already know, in life, in work, in parenting, in relationships? I know I do. Often. Even in simple little things that should be second-nature to me, by now. Not to mention, needing help to stay motivated to DO those things. What about the command to "study to shew thyself approved"?

And on top of that, something I have been pondering a lot lately: if G-d's Holy Spirit is guiding us and is in our hearts, so we don't need the Word to remind us of how to live, to teach us G-d's standards, and to remind us of His standards and intentions for His children... then why do we see all of these differing churches with teachings that vary so incredibly much, even on the most basic fundamental things about which G-d's Word is very clear (OT as well as NT)? Why is it that every denomination claims that the "Spirit" led them to this belief system, but the very Spirit of G-d simply isn't going to teach people different and contradictory things, contrary to the Word of G-d. And even in individual believers, there is constant rampant sin in our lives but we skip along merrily on our way telling people that we either haven't been convicted of it so we don't have to worry about it, or the "spirit" told me that it's all right for me to do "XYZ" (even when XYZ is clearly abominable in G-d's eyes according to the Word, etc.)....

My point here is that the true Spirit of G-d will never ever convince us that it is all right to act and believe differently from the very Word of G-d, nor compel us to believe and act against the Word of G-d, which is revealed in both the Old Testament and the New. Period. G-d does not change, right? So how is it that we see so many in the "church" holding completely differing views on what constitutes SIN? It's because we most often refuse to go to the Word, including the Torah, to figure out just what G-d Himself says is sin in His eyes. (I have no problem with legitimate differences on doctrinal stands on the "minor points", by the way. I am simply saying that when it comes to sin and G-d's standards of living, G-d is the one Who determines what SIN is, and the true Holy Spirit of G-d simply won't "convict" or teach against His already-given standards. So people who claim that they aren't convicted by the "spirit" that they have to live any certain way, and also declare that G-d's Torah isn't important or needed to teach us anymore... um, HUH? And people who flat-out declare that G-d's holy Spirit has told them that it is just fine for them to live in a blatantly sinful way, um... watch out. THAT is dangerous ground, IMHO.)

This world has thrown out G-d's standards from our schools, our homes (by and large) and from our governments... and there are so many "voices" telling people what is "right" to think and do and believe... and in the absence of G-d's objective Word, we tend to base our ideas of "right and wrong" solely on what we have been taught and have seen modeled in our daily living. So how do we truly know what is right? How do we know that our stand on anything regarding sin, regarding how G-d wants to be worshipped, etc., is in line with what G-d says is True and with what He wants for His children?
Torah. TORAH. It is G-d's teaching for LIFE, handed down to His children for them to follow and everything we believe and do should fall in line with it... which is only possible when we esteem Torah and learn it.

As I see it, we HAVE LIFE in Yeshua (our salvation) and we LIVE that LIFE through Torah, G-d's Teaching for life. "...Choose life so that you and your children may live." Over and over in the Bible, much comment is made that we are to choose life and embrace life, that we may live. What IS life? In the Old Testament, it is clear that the WAY OF LIFE is to walk according to God’s Way, the Instruction He has given, The Torah of God; the way of DEATH is to walk outside of and in ignorance and rebellion to God’s Way, the Instruction He has given, The Torah of God.


From Deuteronomy 30. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. "

19, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20, that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

And Yeshua said, “I have come that you may have life and have it to the fullest.” What is He saying? The same thing He said when He declared, “I have come, not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.” He has filled Torah full, that we may embrace it and follow it by His Spirit, according to His example for us; so that we may have life, which comes from following, not rejecting or ignoring, G-d's teachings... His Torah. He even said... Matthew 19:17, "So He said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'"

[Trish1947]

FYI, without the Torah, there would be no messiah Bear with me on this. Isn't that backwards? without the Torah, there would be no messiah?? Shouldn't it be without the Messiah, there would be no Torah?
The Father, Son, Holy Spirit, "the word became flesh and dwelt among us".
Jesus said, those that have seen me, have seen the Father.. Before Abraham was, I am.

[Trish1947]

And Yeshua said, “I have come that you may have life and have it to the fullest.” What is He saying? The same thing He said when He declared, “I have come, not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.” He has filled Torah full, that we may embrace it and follow it by His Spirit, according to His example for us; so that we may have life, which comes from following, not rejecting or ignoring, G-d's teachings... His Torah. He even said... Matthew 19:17, "So He said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'"
There is absolutley nothing in your post that I disagree with Zemirah, we see exactly the same way.

Now to get to the confusion that I have, I have read alot of posts on this site that really bother me. About what to observe, what not to observe, what to wear, when not to wear it, what feast days, holydays,traditions to follow, what not to follow, my goodness the list goes on and on.. forever.. what books are acceptable to follow, whats not good to follow, the list is amazing.

I claim to know nothing except Jesus Christ and Him cusified for me. I have to abide in Christ and what He saved me from, and what he saved me for.. Do you understand my point.?

[sojeru]

Hi Trish,

No, to say that "without Torah there would be no messiah" Is in fact in great fullness correct. However, half of the story.
However, you did add the other piece.
"Without the Messiah there would be no Torah"

Without Torah there would be no messiah and Without the Messiah there would be no Torah- this means that Torah and Messiah are the same exact being...both are the word of G-D! Both give freedom (look at psalms 119)! Both give light both are the light!
Both give and promise Life to those that obey their commands!
They are the same being.
Torah as we have it in a book it the WRITTEN WORD OF G-D.
Messiah as we know is the LIVING WORD OF G-D, WHICH IS THE SPIRIT OF THE TORAH.

shalom

[Trish1947]

sojeruHi Trish,

No, to say that "without Torah there would be no messiah" Is in fact in great fullness correct. However, half of the story.
However, you did add the other piece.
"Without the Messiah there would be no Torah"

Oh, I see your point. Sorry I misunderstood you.

[ShirChadash]

There is absolutley nothing in your post that I disagree with Zemirah, we see exactly the same way.

Now to get to the confusion that I have, I have read alot of posts on this site that really bother me. About what to observe, what not to observe, what to wear, when not to wear it, what feast days, holydays,traditions to follow, what not to follow, my goodness the list goes on and on.. forever.. what books are acceptable to follow, whats not good to follow, the list is amazing.

I claim to know nothing except Jesus Christ and Him cusified for me. I have to abide in Christ and what He saved me from, and what he saved me for.. Do you understand my point.?
*nod* Yes, Ma'am I surely do! :hug:

[ShirChadash]

Without Torah there would be no messiah and Without the Messiah there would be no Torah- this means that Torah and Messiah are the same exact being...both are the word of G-D! Both give freedom (look at psalms 119)! Both give light both are the light!
Both give and promise Life to those that obey their commands!
They are the same being.
Torah as we have it in a book it the WRITTEN WORD OF G-D.
Messiah as we know is the LIVING WORD OF G-D, WHICH IS THE SPIRIT OF THE TORAH.

Amen and amen!

:bow:

[sojeru]

Now that you can see this view. Read Matthew 5:17-20 and wherever it uses the "law" (properly said the Torah) replace it with Messiah.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Messiah or the prophets. I did not come to abolish but to complete.

For, So be it, truly i say to you, until heaven and earth are gone, not the smallest letter or crown on the letters, will disappear from the Messiah until everything is accomplished.

Therefore, whoever annuls one of the least of these divine commandments given by G-D, in His mercy, to Moses and teaches thus to the sons of men (humanity), these shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven;but whoever practices and teaches to observe them, this one will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

For I say unto you that unless the righteousness of you exceeds (if you are no better than) that of the scribes and pharisees (the best of the best of the observers of Torah), you will certainly not enter the kingdom of Hevaen.

If you break even one- you nullify what the messiah did for you at the cross.
With a greater measure of Torah comes a greater measure of Grace. Dont abuse any of these two but with faith establish them both.

Didnt you realize that Messiah made the Torah harder by his Oral teachings of the Torah?
And so- if he made it harder there is also more grace- but it is never to be abused by SINNING (breaking Torah/Messiah)