pagan influence?

[simchat_torah]

Shalom everyone.

A user has pm'ed me the following and has given me permission to reproduce her pm here:pagan influence

Hello! Greetings in friendship in our Lord.
I have followed a lot of your posts, because I am interested in something and I am always hoping it will come up in the Messianic forum, but it never does! and I don't want to stir up something if my question is not appropriate or if it would "inflame" or upset people. So I'm hoping you would be willing to help me with this question because you seem very wise and are a moderator. If I make any errors in etiquette in phrasing, or anything, please forgive me and correct me! Here is my concern:

It seems to me, that Satan is always on the hunt for Israel and that he is always trying to discredit Israel, and by doing so, has the goal of casting a shadow of doubt upon Jesus. In current events, I can see evidence of this every day when I pick up my newspaper. The headlines show a distinct bias against Israel, and I can only conclude that God's people are still under spiritual attack. The attitude of some Christians, that Israel has been "replaced" is simply another extension of this lie. (I dont' believe in replacement theology)
I also see anti-semitic arguments from New Agers and "eastern" religions that are forever pointing to the sacrifices of the OT to "prove" that the God of the Hebrews is a bloodthirsty, revengeful and wrathful God and that therefore, no one should worship Him. The insidiousness of this causes me to feel anger because these people fail to understand the history, tradition and teachings of this, and then also fail to compare this to the pagan sacrifices of young females, genitally mutilated, to Isis! Its irritating! The deception then continues into : one should follow any path to the truth, and that all paths lead to God.
I have pointed out the anti-semitic nature of these arguments to some New Agers, and a few have responded favorably but on the whole, most of them fail to recognize the truth and the history and full tradition behind sacrifices in the Temple etc, in the OT. Can you recommend a resource, a book, perhaps, that fully explains this issue and shows that God is not "bloodthirsty" but rather explains the fullness of the history of all this?
Perhaps I am way off base in even asking this question, but I find that this argument is so prevalent, and people, even many Christians, fail to see its satanic origin. I hope I am making sense and that I am not saying anything that is offensive to you.
If you can help me with this, I will be very grateful for your sharing!
Sincerely,
XXXXXX (name blocked for privacy)


I think this is an intruiging topic. I couldn't think of any specific book titles off of the top of my head, but I can certainly see that this could be a wonderful discussion.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Agreed. Paganism has crept into all faiths. Some can be proven through scholarly means, while other are based on half truths and conjecture to fullfill a need doctrinally.

[MorphRC]

I agree Satan is working quite hard these days, just turn on the TV, what do you get? Nudity, Sex, Gloath, Violence against one another. I dont know where these "Christians" got the idea that Israel has been replaced, seems like jeaslousy of the State of Israel, or most probably slight anti-semitic judgments, anyhow, in revelations I believe Israel is still needed for Christs second coming, that will be the new Israel, and the New jerusalem. Maybe they got mixed up.

It seems even the Jews are getting blamed for paganistic material, just like the Catholic Church, it would be nice if they actually studied our religions and saw where things developed and were revealed, instead of making, rash connections for personal glory.

[simchat_torah]

Ah, I forgot this thread existed!

This very question arose not too long ago here in the MJ section. We had discussed breifly starting a thread with this very topic...

well, here ya go!

;)

shalom,
yafet

[rooster]

For christian history i recomend "Two Kingdoms; the church and culture through the ages" by R. Clouse, R, Pierard, E, Yamauchi. I have another christian history book but it hints of replacment theory.
For those who think that our God is vengenful and bloodthirsty what better medicine then a better understanding of the gospels. i would recommend a good expositry writing about the gospels and i personally would recomend "Message of Matthew" by Michael Green. M. Green is not about radical christianity but about christians living radically for christ, it does not have the paganistic rationalization or hellene thought mixed in, just a good faithful expositry on the Gospel.

[blessed2]

We know that the "wolves" are in the church/synagog. I see that the "wolves"
, by their ung-dly deeds, speech and attitudes casts their vile reputation upon us all as a whole and I think that it is meant to cause the people of the 1st and 2nd covenants to be at odds and both a hated thing in the eye's of the world.
I wonder why satan would so strive to keep us from uniting? What power would the people of G-d possess if the true followers of the covenants were to unite under the banner of our 1 G-d.... to allie together in love and absolute support?
How can we convince the jewish people......
That as a true follower:
I will stand for you in the face of all enemies.
I will die with you and for you.
There have been differences mostly due to the fact that we have been raised
with corrupted teachings but there is hope.
See the numbers that exodus the traditional denominational christian churches....
who are seeking truth and the original roots of our faith? See how G-d exalts the original branches....to lead H-s lost children back to H-m?

[Linda8]

Judaism was also infiltrated by some external influences from the Babylon era.

These things are handed down from generation to generation and are quite difficult to stamp out.. in much the

same way as pagan inputs crept into Roman catholic doctrines etc..

[simchat_torah]

Judaism was also infiltrated by some external influences from the Babylon era.

This claim has been tossed around more than a few times. Things like, the temple was designed after pagan centers, etc...

But I have never seen any proof.

-yafet

[IKTCA]

simchat-torah,

I wonder if we missed the point of the PM. He specifically asked about animal sacrifice of torah and if it is influenced by pagan sacrifice.

[Linda8]

[/font]

This claim has been tossed around more than a few times. Things like, the temple was designed after pagan centers, etc...

But I have never seen any proof.

-yafetYou would have to probe well into the period before the Babylonian exile to compare events in order to see the proof in the manner you desire.

You must realise that these things were passed down and when you are born

into an environment, you grow up following what goes on around you.

Pretty tough to avoid...

Would you not be wary of anything associated with the Nebuchadnezzar like

era influences ? I would be very worried...

[simchat_torah]

You would have to probe well into the period before the Babylonian exile to compare events in order to see the proof in the manner you desire.

I have probed deeply and found nothing.

Would you not be wary of anything associated with the Nebuchadnezzar like era influences ?

Yes, I would be. However, I am not one to follow blindly. I question my beliefs continually. I challenge myself and others. I have never ever ever found any proof to these claims.

Not only must one first establish a similarity between two practices, but then... even more importantly... explicitly prove that one is the origin of the other.

Shalom,
yafet

[Hix]

You would have to probe well into the period before the Babylonian exile to compare events in order to see the proof in the manner you desire.

You must realise that these things were passed down and when you are born

into an environment, you grow up following what goes on around you.

Pretty tough to avoid...

Would you not be wary of anything associated with the Nebuchadnezzar like

era influences ? I would be very worried...


Linda, there is a difference. With the likes of christianity the paganisms that got mixed with it are easy for all to see, they make up its very core foundation. However Judaism still remains centered on the Torah in all that it does.
Now Im not saying some outside influences didnt affect the Jews at some point or another. The Esscenes for example were deeply involved with Roman culture and theology and were thusly excommunicated from Judaism by the Sanheidren. Also there are a few unimportant symbols such as the now popular "hand with eye" on it that wards off the evil eye which started as a pagan tradition. And theres some debate over whether the Magen David also started as a pagan star also.

But this is all unimportant. The difference here is those genuinely have nothing to do with Judaism and its core message. The true heart of Judaism is still centered on Torah after 4000 years, yet christianitys true message has Mithras and Dionysis (and countless others) written all over it.

Everyone gets affected by other people, some jewelry and B'nei Yisrael turning to gods not their own at certain points in history is proof of that. But Judaism after 4000 years of attempts to wipe it out from the face of the earth, of scattering to this corner and to that in cultures foreign to our people is STILL centered entirely on Torah. And that is what is important

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[IKTCA]

I am not a scholar on anthropology or archaeology. I don't know much about pagan sacrifice. But I will write a few lines on animal sacrifice from the scriptures.

The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thought of their hearts was only evil continually.......So the Lord said, "I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created." (Genesis 6:5, 7)

Noah and his sons built an ark and entered it.

The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (Genesis 7:12)

After the earth became dry, Noah and his sons came out of the ark.

Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings. (Genesis 8:20)

Since G-d wiped out all men and women except Noah and his sons and their wives, all men and women living on the earth now are desendants of Noah. All the Gentiles and Jews came from Noah.

Noah gave the first burnt offering from clean animals and birds. Animal sacrifice in non-Jewis religions came out of Noah. But Noah did not burn unclean animals or his sons or their wives. All pagan practices of burning sons and daughters or unclean animals came from their evil hearts. Neither G-d commanded it nor Noah practised it.

Let me write a few more lines on the question on "bloodthirsty G-d."

Do I eat the flesh of bulls,
or drink the blood of goats?

Offer to G-d a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
and pay your vows to the Most High. (Psalm 50:13-14)

G-d does not drink blood. He wants his people to offer thanksgiving offering by burning a few from their own flock. Our G-d is not blood-thirsty. Our G-d is thanksgiving-thirsty.

[debi b]

I wonder if a better question concerning sacrifices wouldn't be to look at it the other way around. It is hard to prove a positive from a negative...

What is the point for sacrifices? It is hard for us to relate because it isn't relevant for most of us. So we don't tend to spend much time thinking about it. But there is alot of real estate in Scripture about sacrifices so perhaps it is worthy of more thought.

A burnt offering
It can be from the herd, flock, dove, or grain. It is offered by the participant for no other reason than desire. The offerer recieves no "benefit". There is no sin involved but a "kafar" or "covering" is made. When the offering is completed there is nothing left, all goes up to Adonai. One of the procedures involved is washing of the insides and the legs.

When Paul encouraged believers to offer themselves as living sacrifices I wonder if he was drawing on imagery from a burnt offering. If we did this we would be wholly given over to Him and there would be nothing left of us when we were done.

When Yeshua and Peter had the conversation about washing feet and he said you are clean but he still wanted to wash his feet,I wonder if we can glean something again from a burnt offering?

There are many sacrifices for many reasons.....

[EchadHashem]

Beresheit 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, mitzvah, chuqqah, and Torah.

Sometimes I wonder if this whole question shouldn't be reversed. It appears that Abraham kept Torah. Given that he had such a profound influence on many cultures and was the father of many nations isn't it to be expected that there are alot of "paganized" forms of Torah in many cultures. I rather expect it myself. I would suspect that the Truths of HaShems Torah from Abraham would slowly become perverted in these cultures to the point of hardly being recognizable....yet, in some cases, they are clearly related.

Any thoughts.

Shalom.

[Dominus Fidelis]

same way as pagan inputs crept into Roman catholic doctrines etc..

They did? When?

[Hix]

ugh, who bumped this topic? >_< May I suggest a moderator locking/deleting this?

DOF - when the non-baptised Pagan Mithras worshipper Constantine decided what the "churchs" doctrine would be, and added his own beliefs to the mix.

Someone lock this before we get more complaints
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Dominus Fidelis]

I'm not going to report you, don't worry.

However, I am calling you out.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=2070111

[Henaynei]

Some suggestions aare just too good to pass up!!!

This thread is closed as it is just too great temptation for transgression of forum rules.
Jewish law requires that if one sees a stone or hole in the road that might cause another to stumble they are required to eleviate the situation..... This has now been done!

Henaynei
Moderator