Christian music?

[Niko]

I dont know if im the only one, but i hate this so called "christian music." Am I the only Orthodox person that doesnt like it?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

What Christian music are you referring to? I like some of the praise and worship stuff, but I don't listen to it very often anymore. I'm sure there's some I couldn't agree with anymore. It just depends on what the song is about.

[Iacobus]

I dont know if im the only one, but i hate this so called "christian music." Am I the only Orthodox person that doesnt like it?

I'll confess that I'm with HommedeDieu on this. I used to listen to a lot of Christian music before I became Orthodox, but afterwards it just didn't have any impact for me. I think Frederica Mathewes-Greene referred to it as "Jesus is my boyfriend music", and that sums up how I feel about it.

But take that with a grain of salt. I hated praise and worship stuff even when I was protestant. Chalk it up to old-fogeyism.

James

[Oblio]

We've got a CD of EO contemporary stuff that I like given to us by Theodora/Iacobus. It is rather like some of the 'acid-folk' stuff of my college days (e.g. Donovan et. al.) but with Orthodox themes.

I like Phil Keggy though I don't think (or expect) any 'Christian' radio to play him.

Most CCM is IMO :sick:

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I'll confess that I'm with HommedeDieu on this. I used to listen to a lot of Christian music before I became Orthodox, but afterwards it just didn't have any impact for me. I think Frederica Mathewes-Greene referred to it "Jesus is my boyfriend music", and that sums up how I feel about it.

But take that with a grain of salt. I hated praise and worship stuff even when I was protestant. Chalk it up to old-fogeyism.

James
LOL. That is a pretty good description of it! Kind of falls in with the "Jesus is my homeboy" t-shirts (as well as "Mary is my homegirl").:doh:

[Akathist]

My priest commented that he doesn't like it. And a couple other people in the church said the same thing.

I still love Contempory Christian Music. (CCM) Sure, there are some lyrics that are not of sound theology.... but there are a lot worse kind of music out there when it comes to it.

The only music I listen to is CCM except for 2 CD's that the Priest gave me to listen to in my "get out of despair" kit he gave me to help me recover from my depression.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

A "get out of despair" kit?!? Where can I get one? :pray:

[Akathist]

GDE, he called it this. It was an oil "candle" that has a stand that can burn incense, some oil and incense, an Orthodox prayer book and the two CD's. The icons a friend sent to me were blessed at the altar that day too which was part of the "kit".

It really worked too. My mood is getting better. I especially like the prayer in the prayer book called "For times of trouble". I say it with my morning and evening prayers.

About Christian music.... I used to listen to CCM when feeling very depressed and now I pray instead. (There was a time that I associated this music venue as a form of prayer... but now I have seen real prayers set to "tones" that effect me at a much deeper level.)

[ufonium2]

There is not a word for how strongly I loathe contemporary Christian music.

I would rather have my (future) children listening to secular music than CCM. Here's why:

Most of the offensiveness of secular music stems from foul language and sexual overtones. A lot of this gets bleeped out on the radio, and even if it doesn't the kids know those are bad words because they get told by teachers, parents, and society in general every day that you can't say [insert swear word or dirty phrase.]

Contemporary Christian music, on the other hand, is chock-full of heresy and irreverence that never gets bleeped on the radio. It's also very rare to find a Christian adult who will say anything bad about this music, even though the theology is at best shallow and at worst dangerous.

Personally, I would rather have my kid hear a few more swear words every now and again than have him think Jesus is his homeboy.

[Oblio]

I would rather have my (future) children listening to secular music than CCM. Here's why:

...


In addition to those good points, quite frankly, most of CCM is (IMO) just awful music, both in content and in 'talent'. I think subjecting young ears to some of it would be classified as sonical abuse ^_^

[Constantine]

Christian music is about all I used to listen to, but now I'm listening more to secular.
Christian music is just secular love songs, but the girl is replaced by God, it's kinda tiring, and like you guys have said, the whole "Jesus is my home-boy" stuff is kinda lame and stoopid in my eyes.

[Alfred M]

I think we must be very careful how we approach what is called Christian music these days. Music is such an emotional medium and often times we begin to put ourselves at the center as we listen to it. It becomes for our entertainment and thus ceases to be worshipful. In my protestant past praise music was used to create more of a pep rally scenario within the worship sevice and our own personal "pepped up" spirit became the primary issue.

In one of my Orthodox CD's (FIrst Fruits by the Boston Byzantine choir) it gives a light warning of the intent of the chants produced on their CD...that it should never be used as mere entertainment and should be used to create a prayerful heart and is meant for the worship of God.

So much of the Christian Music today seems to be a way we Christians can be just like the world as long as our lyrics are correct...when we are called to be just the opposite of the world.

Oh well, Hope I didn't step out of line too much...for in the end it will be each person's heart that will be judged...just seems so much of the music is "thin ice".

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred, lowliest of sinners

[gzt]

I'm quite horrible at picking out lyrics in songs, so I must evaluate these things on an aesthetic level. I have never found a Christian contemporary song which was worth listening to. Well, mostly for lack of trying. I don't think there's a Christian version of Pavement, so why bother? If I want Christian music, I listen to Arvo Part or something.

What little I can make out, though, is so completely inane [almost as inane as Hegel or liberalism!] that I cannot see how anybody could mistake it for Christianity. It's emotion and vagueness, not theology. Can't listen to it without thinking of the Monty Python sketch where this man praying goes on and on about how very large God is.

[aesthetic]

I think it's mediocrity at its finest.

[Reader Nilus]

How does one serve God and Mammon? The so-called Christian Music is a wedding between the two, the Christian Bands are just entertainment. The faith can not be reduced to a few cute little jingles.
One of the reasons for acapella in Orthodoxy is the lyrics if you will, is where all of the attention needs to be focused, for we have a rational faith, and not one based on emotions.
Jeff the Finn

[Niko]

I just thought it was annoying. I didnt know there was heresy involved.

[xenia]

I've been to many a "Christian" rock concert in my day. The girls scream and the band eats it up. It's just like a secular rock concert- only thing missing is the smell of dope. At the Christian school where I teach, this is the stuff all the kids listen to and most of them listen to it because it's all their parents will allow. This music is sappy and sentimental and second-rate. If I really thought the whole thing honored God, I'd tolerate it for that reason, but I don't think it does honor God, I think it trivializes Him.

The musicians may start out sincere but the money and the glory and the screaming girls sort of makes 'em lose their focus, if you know what I mean. A secular rock star has it easier in a way... he's not confused as to his purpose. He just wants to get rich and famous. A Christian rock star, if there really is such a thing, also has to keep up the pretense that he's "doing ministry." They really think of themselves as ministers of the Gospel.

Ever been to a concert put on by the so-called Christian band Skillet? They look like the defunct Sex Pistols, minus the swear words, although to be honest, I could never understand one word they ever said so who knows. The Christian kids in the crowd are all dressed in the Punk style, in ripped black clothing held together with safety pins and the usual punkish sour demeanor. Oh yeah, we just want to praise the Lord. [Translation: We just want to rock! If our parents would let us, we'd be at a real punk concert instead of this watered-down imitation, but not to worry! As soon as we're 18 that's just where we will go.]

This stuff is allowed and encouraged by Christian leaders in the mistaken notion that "we will win this generation to Christ by making Christianity relevent." They are not realizing the following: when God is calling a person to Himself He the person wants something Totally Different from their old sinful life. They are sick of drugs, sex, and rock and roll and don't want a pale imitation of their old culture with a thin Christian veneer. They want to repent and convert.

My former church used to put on rock concerts- in the "sanctuary," no less. They would justify it by claiming "we had 15 decisions for Christ last night." Piffle. None of these conversion ever "stuck." Kids were just caught up in the excitment of the moment or their lust for the bass player or whatever. The band said "Wanna say YES?" and the kids said YES and the "conversion" lasted for all of 24 hours, if that long. I always suspected the "converts" said YES so they could go up and have a band member pray over them. At that age, I don't think I could have resisted such an opportunity, either.

-Xenia

[All4Christ]

There is not a word for how strongly I loathe contemporary Christian music.

I would rather have my (future) children listening to secular music than CCM. Here's why:

Most of the offensiveness of secular music stems from foul language and sexual overtones. A lot of this gets bleeped out on the radio, and even if it doesn't the kids know those are bad words because they get told by teachers, parents, and society in general every day that you can't say [insert swear word or dirty phrase.]


Contemporary Christian music, on the other hand, is chock-full of heresy and irreverence that never gets bleeped on the radio. It's also very rare to find a Christian adult who will say anything bad about this music, even though the theology is at best shallow and at worst dangerous.

Personally, I would rather have my kid hear a few more swear words every now and again than have him think Jesus is his homeboy.Just out of curiosity, why doesn't Orthodoxy make some CD's or music...or is it just not well-known?

Also, secular music isn't bad only because of the swear words. So often it talks about drugs, suicide, drinking, sex, and immorality in general....none of that gets bleeped out. http://www.christianforum.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I do see your point though...I'd never want to listen to any Unitarian music or Muslim or Buddhist, etc. etc.

What do you think about songs that are just psalms put to music, or other scripture verses that are in song?

[Reader Nilus]

There are 100's of CD's of Orthodox music on the market, in the record stores look under classical vocals for them, they come in Russian or Greek.
Jeff the Finn

[katherine2001]

Also, look on the Web on the Orthodox publishers and bookstores. There are many available, including many in English. I have quite a few and listen to them a lot of the time, though I listen to the radio at work (a classic rock station--not CCM).

[Xpycoctomos]

I'm glad someone brought up this thread. Interestingly enough I had always loathed Christian Contemporary Music in my protestant days. Don't get me wrong, my Church was totally on the whole, "hey, we have to turn Mass into enteratainment to get the kids to start coming" track, so there was definitely pressure for me to like it. Honestly, at first, there was just something plain... well... hokey about it. I mean really, 7-10 years ago when I was in high school, CCM was asthetically bad. Most people who liked it (I believe) did so because they felt it made them a good Christian. I know people are thinking "but it's bad right now"... no, it was REALLY bad. An embarrassment. I mean there were some groups like Jars of Clay but the rest, I swear, were people who got together in a group and said "Look, we need to save souls... hey, kids like music! let's listen to the radio and try to copy that... Yeah, I know how to rhyme! and I can keep a beat! This will be the hippest stuff out there, and everyone will know Jesus through it!" I mean c'mon, at least half of those bands were probably formed like that.

But I must say that Christian Music has a come a long way since then (asthetically speaking). Yes, a lot of the lyrics are hokey at best and heresey at worst ("I Wish We'd All been Ready" by DCTalk.. beautiful song.. horrible theology).

But, I have found myself sick and tired of the trash they play on secular radio stations. Honestly, there is no excuse for listening to it. I'm weaning myself off. I thought it was bad at times when I was younger... it is HORRIBLE now. The fact that I let half the lyrics pass through my mind putting filthy images past my mind sickens me. Really, listen to the lyrics of 10 songs one day. 60% is not fit for any child (and this music is aimed at them) and 40% is not fit for anyone!

So, I have found myself listening to the two genres of music I never thought I would listen to: Country and CCM. Country is the most Chrsitian yet down-to-earth music you are going to find out there. I still cringe at times... but it's good-hearted stuff. As far as CCM goes, as long as the theology is ok (and usually they don't get deep enough to make theological errors) I see no problem with it. I like songs like "He reigns" byt the Newsboys (overplayed, but good) which is just plain fun. But then there are other songs that really have good Christian messages that speak to young people (and us). "What if I stumble" by DCTalk is about falling down and getting up again and is actually a good song talent wise as well. There are countless others. It took me a while to get passed by prejudice against CCM to actually keep and open mind when listening to it. The nice thing is that I can turn on the Christian station and no that everything I hear is AT LEAST good intetioned. Yeah, the theology is bad on a lot of the Bible Message commercials.. but I knwo what I believe as an Orthodox and for others, if in the end they understand that God loves them and that He wants us to come to Him, then that is an excellent stepping stone for them and I am all for it.

If I can bore you with one more paragraph... I do, however, have concerns about my future children listening to it only because I do not want them to think that this music (often referred to as praise and worship music) is somehow comparable or equal to Liturgical Music. Now, many of our protestant friends will read this and just feel that I am another close-minded Orthodox... that's ok. But I know that my fellow Orthodox here know what I mean. There is a holiness that even the most theologically-unaware observer can feel when at a Divine Liturgy or Vespers Service compared to a "Praise Service". Hmmm... I don't know. Do you think that if my kids (that I still don't have, lol) were to listen to stations like these on a regular basis they could confuse it with worship?

Thanks for hearing me out. :)

James

[prodromos]

We have a few albums of CCM. I went through a period where I bought quite a few but stopped after I realised that on one album Jesus was not mentioned once by name. Of course being from a christian band, you assumed that they were singing about Christ, but if a Moslem or even a satanist could listen to the same song and happily listen to the lyrics as if they were referring to their own substitute "lord", something had to be seriously wrong.

I second Oblio's vote for Phil Keaggy, though I have only listened to his instrumental work and can't comment on his lyrical stuff. An old favourite of mine however, is Keith Green. Nothing wishy washy about his lyrics, you knew exactly who he was singing about and he didn't pull any punches. He really wanted christians to wake up and start living as they should. On top of that, he put all the money he made from record sales back into ministry.

Generally though, I now tend to listen only to Byzantine Chant as it is the only music I find fulfilling. Everything else leaves me feeling a bit empty.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Do you think that if my kids (that I still don't have, lol) were to listen to stations like these on a regular basis they could confuse it with worship?
They could, but if they are being taken to Church on a regular basis I think it would be less likely they would get confused about it. Although, I think there are some Orthodox adults who get confused by it. I know a lady who is cradle Orthodox but listens to a Christian music radio station and raves about it quite a bit. She also adores Joyce Meyer's books.:eek: She asked me once what I thought of Joyce Meyer, and I told her I'd been to one of her seminars is Detroit and didn't think what she teaches jives up with Orthodoxy. She said "Oh, I never really thought about that....".:doh: People who haven't had Orthopraxis are easy targets for evangelicals.

[Akathist]

Some of Joyce Meyer's stuff is fine... it is not Orthodox so it is not fair to expect her to be. For a Protestant, it is fine.

The same thing with CCM. It is not liturgical music. It is not meant to replace prayers and attendance at church.

But everyday on TV, on secular radio stations, in novels and even in the newspaper and "news" or documentary like TV stations, we are exposed to things that do not agree with the Orthodox theology.

I think that CCM is better than some other kinds of music and I would encourage any child I had to listen to this. (However, I would also encourage them to know when the lyrics are not orthodox and would try to listen to the music together or go over the words with them especially when they are younger.

I guess I might be in a bad mood today, but I am feeling rather sensitive to legalism. I do not think that legalism is a part of true Orthodoxy. It is important for us not to judge others or set up standards that are so high that people considering this faith feel that it is impossible to acheive so they give up.

I also encourage people to discuss what kind of music they listen to, what kind of TV or movies they watch with their Priest. This is the best way to make sure that you are not setting your personal standards too low or too high for where you are at in your spiritual journey.

[countrymousenc]

I do not think that legalism is a part of true Orthodoxy. Neither do I, thorny.

There are some praise&worship songs that that I like which are taken straight from the Scriptures, usually the Psalms, although I wouldn't want to hear them used liturgically. Most of the rest just don't do anything for me, but some of that is just a matter of taste.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Some of Joyce Meyer's stuff is fine... it is not Orthodox so it is not fair to expect her to be. For a Protestant, it is fine.

Do you mean that for a Protestant to read her is fine? On that, I agree. I'm not expecting her to be Orthodox. I think you may have misunderstood me or something. Most of her books are dedicated to how to live the Christian life. Do you think it is benefial for an Orthodox Christian to spend time reading books about how to live the Christian life that are written by someone who embraces teachings that the Chruch considers heresy? I don't. It's liable to cause a lot of confusion. I'm not judging any particular person if they want to do this, I'm just saying it isn't wise.

Where does your reference to legalism come from?:scratch: I'm not seeing it in any posts on this thread so far. Just people stating their preferences. If you were referring to the reference I made to my friend, I am not judging her relationship with God or the Church. I have found, however, that when talking to her about Church matters, she sounds much more heterodox than Orthodox. Not because she's a bad person, but because I think she's confused on some things. Our priest has picked up on this too, and has told her she must complete catechism before taking Communion again (even though she is baptised/chrismated Orthodox).

[Xpycoctomos]

Joyce Meyers? Isn't that the apostolic stuff, concentrates on the "Gifts"? Uhm, I sued to be Lutheran and even if I were still lutheran to this day, I would not let my kids step foot at one of her conferences. I have seen people so spiritually mislead and harmed by this vehemently anti-catholic movement. I have seen a friend change from someone who was looking at Catholicism and Orthodoxy to someone who i can't even have a conversation with (beyond the weather) because she believes that Catholics and Orthodox are probably not saved. Plus, every tiome she comes back from one of those conferences she has a new "gift" (interpretation of dreams, discernment, etc) just because someone at the Meyers conference layed hands on her. I will stop so as not to mislead this forum but I had to comment because I really do feel that this movement is dangerous.

GDE: You made a good point about CCM not having a bad effect on the children as long as we properly educate our children on Orthodoxy and let them know when a song is not of sound Orthodox theology. And anyway, most do not begin go beyond the surface, so it is difficult for them to fall into heresy lol. In the end, it is so much better than the majority of secular MTV music out there.

James

[countrymousenc]

Joyce Meyers is of the "name-it-and-claim-it" word-of-faith (WOF) prosperity gospel crowd. I'd advise steering clear of them all, other than praying for them.

[Xpycoctomos]

Amen country mouse... we do need to pray for groups like these. I will try to remember to do that more.

God bless,

James

[Mary of Bethany]

I used to listen to Steve Camp. Like Keith Green, there was nothing wishy-washy about his lyrics. But he's pretty Calvinist so I don't listen to him anymore. (And CCM shunned him because he had some not-so-kind words for the "Christian Music Industry".)


When I want to listen to popular music, I listen to U2 - I find Bono's lyrics much more edifying than most so-called "Christian" music.

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

http://www.towerrecords.com/product.aspx?pfid=1016588

[Akathist]

I don't think that I have any right to tell someone else what kind of music is allowed. That is what I mean by legalism.

[Xpycoctomos]

I don't think anyone was saying that. Unless you are referring to what I said about whether or not I should let my kids listen to CCM. I think parents have a right to prohibit some types of music. Example, my kids will not be listening to Gangsta Rap. Obviously there will come a time when they will have to make their own decisions... but that won't be played in my house :) The same would go with CCM... if I feel it would be harmful for my children's spirtuality, I have the right and the duty to do my best to make sure that that music does not have an influence on my children. But, after reading someone's post (I think Grand-Dutchess') I don't think it is such a big deal... certainly better than 60% of the trash on pop radio.

You probably weren't referring to that... but hey one more post isn't gonna hurt. I need 100 posts so I can get a job and start earning blessings (I want to help the Catholics get the Holy Grail, because they and the Lutherans are the only one's making a serious effort, so I figure I'll help my saint-prayin', sacramental lovin' brothers and sisters jejeje).

James

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I don't think anyone was saying that. Unless you are referring to what I said about whether or not I should let my kids listen to CCM. I think parents have a right to prohibit some types of music. Example, my kids will not be listening to Gangsta Rap. Obviously there will come a time when they will have to make their own decisions... but that won't be played in my house :) The same goes with CCM... if I feel it would be harmful for my children's spirtuality, I have the right and the duty to do my best to make sure that that music does not have an influence on me. But, after reading someone's post (I think Grand-Dutchess') I don't think it is such a big deal... certainly better than 60% of the **** on pop radio.

JamesYou and I are on the same page with this.:) My future children will probably hate me. There will be no MTV, no gangsta' rap, no rated R movies, my daughters will NOT EVER wear a mini-skirt while they are living in my house (especially to church ;) ), and my sons will not wear their pants so baggy that their boxer clad bums are hanging out. No body piercings except ears. Yep, I'll be hated.:D

[Patristic]

It seems like most people object to Christian music based more on the content than on the fact that a lot of it is bad. I object to virtually all secular music based on it's content and really only listen to Christian music anymore, mostly worship stuff. I believe that SCC is one of the most talented musicians I have ever heard, either Christian or secular. Will MacFarland is excellent and talented musically. I also like stuff from John Michael Talbot because I find it relaxing and soothing.

[seeking.IAM]

If you will permit a comment from a Methodist guest/seeker, I agree with Patristic. Theology aside, I think much of it is simply bad music.

seeking.IAM

[Orthosdoxa]

Comments always welcome, Seeking!

And welcome to TAW. :)

[NewToLife]

If you want good Christian music with solid theology then the classical world offers a great range, I have to confess that CCM leaves me cold by and large though.

[Patristic]

Could anyone give me any concrete names of any groups classfied within CCM that they don't like. I keep hearing a lot discredit the genre altogther without giving any specifics. Yes, a lot of it is bad but I wouldn't classify as all bad or second rate.

[Eusebios]

Lots of interesting thought shere, good thread overall I think. Although I find myself drawn more and more to liturgical music, there are3 still some, and I'll admit they are few and far between, CCM bands that I listen to. Daniel Amos is frankly one of the most brilliant bands to have ever been assembled. Their most recent CD, Mr. Buechner's Dream is brilliant, and surprisingly orthodox in content, (not that most of the earlier stuff wasn't) I've even heard that Terry Taylor, the groups brainchild, has converted to Orthodoxy, though I do not have any independent confirmation of this. Phil Keaggy, whether his instrumental or lyrical work, is solid, quality stuff.
I tend to agree that most of CCM is a ghetto that exceeds most of the secular trash out there. I listen to a good deal more of bOB MARLEY AND HIS PROGENY THAN i DO ccm. aS TO SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OF "BAD" ccm. i'D SIGHT aUDIO aDRENALINE, sKILLET (drat that caps lock!)and a good deeal more. Hope we can keep a productive discussion going here. I'd like to know, for those who do listen to CCM, what you find to be relevant and worthwhile bands?
Under His Mercy,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Oblio]

Could anyone give me any concrete names of any groups classfied within CCM that they don't like. I keep hearing a lot discredit the genre altogther without giving any specifics. Yes, a lot of it is bad but I wouldn't classify as all bad or second rate.

Dial up any CSN (calvary satellite network) station.

[Matrona]

Could anyone give me any concrete names of any groups classfied within CCM that they don't like. I keep hearing a lot discredit the genre altogther without giving any specifics. Yes, a lot of it is bad but I wouldn't classify as all bad or second rate.
CARMAN. ;)

If there is one silver lining to my sister's falling away from Christianity, it's that I will never have to listen to "Who's in the house? J-C!" EVER AGAIN!!!!

[Patristic]

Granted most of those groups are annoying, but I would rather have someone listen to them than to the alternatives in secular music which are nothing but vice filled. Besides, I think most CCM is targeted toward the teenage demographic and not really aimed at Christian adults so much. I prefer the worship music since much of it is based upon the Psalms, classical hymns, or other Scriptures.

[Xpycoctomos]

Could anyone give me any concrete names of any groups classfied within CCM that they don't like. I keep hearing a lot discredit the genre altogther without giving any specifics. Yes, a lot of it is bad but I wouldn't classify as all bad or second rate.
Unfortunately I can't give you too many specific examples for a few reasons. One, becasue I listen to CCM on the radio and, just like pop, I don't really know the names of groups or their songs. One specific song that sticks out in my mind is "Wish We'd all been Ready" by DCTalk. Don't get me wrong, I love their Jesus Freak Album and they wonderful voices.... in fact I listen to the very song I am critiquing because it SOUNDS so beautiful... but the theology is totally off borders on doomday tactics for conversion.

But, this is only one example, which proves no point whatsoever. The fact is that CCM (form what I can see) usually doesn't get into deep issues of theology (which is a good thing), although I am sure that some who were once avid listeners of CCM can cite a few more groups that have bad theology. My problem with CCM is not so much the content but how they and it's audience views worship and God. It is good and important to see Him as someone who you can go to any time and talk to with your own words. But there is a serious lack of true awe for Christ. Pop music does not leave much to be desired because no one is listening to it for depth, but protestants who listen to it think that THIS is Christianity, that this is the right way to view God. They tend to have the view that Jesus is just like your best buddy. But he's not. He's much more than that. Best buddy's mess up too, and you have to be there for them. Best Buddys will unknowingly offendyou or let you down at some point... best budy's are falible like you are... that's why he or she is your best buddy. Christ is our God. That doesn't mean he is untouchable, but it means that there is a certain reverence that we owe Him. Obviously there are many examples of this in CCM, but by and large this aspect of God (and the essence of WHAT worship IS) is ignored. So, for the educated Orthodox, most CCM is fine. For example, when I listen to the DC Talk song cited above about the end times, all though it's theologically "wack" I already know that and so I can pick out the good things (ie, preparing myself so that I am "ready" for that last day, be that death or the Judgement Day). But I worry about the influence it has on the nominal Orthodox or christian that has no sense of Tradition or reverence (not by their fault, but because that's what our culture is). I mean... "JC is in the house"? As if to compare him to Snoop Dawg. SOme flashy Superstar. That isn't the Jesus I know nor do I read about such a Jesus anywhere in the Scriptures or the testimonies of the Church Fathers.

That was totally random but there you have it. I also dont claim to be a connoisseur of CCM, so I would love to keep getting more suggestions on solid CCM artists.

In Christ,

James

PS: by the way, I should add that I really do appreciate a lot of the music of DC Talk because they do a good job at highlighting the struggles of CHrsitianity. I also have immense respect for them in regards to their Jesus Freak Books, a series of Volumes on "Jesus Freaks" people who have been persecuted/martyred for Christ's sake citing MANY Church Fathers East and West. Excellent Witness to protestants and Orthodox/Catholics alike!

[xenia]

"The Holy Ghost Hop"

Everybody used to do the twist
The mashed potato and it goes like this
The funky chicken, monkey too
There wasn't nothing' they would not do
But there's a new dance no one can stop
A leap for joy we call the Holy Ghost Hop.

Now get ready, hold steady
Don't deny it, just try it
Be bold now, let it go now
Give the Holy Ghost control now.

Chorus
Rejoice with a grateful heart
Rejoice to the Holy One
Rejoice, let your praises fill the air
Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice, rejoice
Everybody praise Him and rejoice.

Hey all you brothers and you sisters too
Don't let tradition tell you what to do
Release your worries and your fears
'Cause we've been hopping in the church for years
If King David was here I know that he
Would do the Holy Ghost Hop with me.
--------------

I apologize if these lyrics offend anyone, but I thought this would be instructive.

Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy.

-Xenia

[countrymousenc]

Well, if you take away everything but the chorus...

[Patristic]

Unfortunately I can't give you too many specific examples for a few reasons. One, becasue I listen to CCM on the radio and, just like pop, I don't really know the names of groups or their songs. One specific song that sticks out in my mind is "Wish We'd all been Ready" by DCTalk. Don't get me wrong, I love their Jesus Freak Album and they wonderful voices.... in fact I listen to the very song I am critiquing because it SOUNDS so beautiful... but the theology is totally off borders on doomday tactics for conversion.

But, this is only one example, which proves no point whatsoever. The fact is that CCM (form what I can see) usually doesn't get into deep issues of theology (which is a good thing), although I am sure that some who were once avid listeners of CCM can cite a few more groups that have bad theology. My problem with CCM is not so much the content but how they and it's audience views worship and God. It is good and important to see Him as someone who you can go to any time and talk to with your own words. But there is a serious lack of true awe for Christ. Pop music does not leave much to be desired because no one is listening to it for depth, but protestants who listen to it think that THIS is Christianity, that this is the right way to view God. They tend to have the view that Jesus is just like your best buddy. But he's not. He's much more than that. Best buddy's mess up too, and you have to be there for them. Best Buddys will unknowingly offendyou or let you down at some point... best budy's are falible like you are... that's why he or she is your best buddy. Christ is our God. That doesn't mean he is untouchable, but it means that there is a certain reverence that we owe Him. Obviously there are many examples of this in CCM, but by and large this aspect of God (and the essence of WHAT worship IS) is ignored. So, for the educated Orthodox, most CCM is fine. For example, when I listen to the DC Talk song cited above about the end times, all though it's theologically "wack" I already know that and so I can pick out the good things (ie, preparing myself so that I am "ready" for that last day, be that death or the Judgement Day). But I worry about the influence it has on the nominal Orthodox or christian that has no sense of Tradition or reverence (not by their fault, but because that's what our culture is). I mean... "JC is in the house"? As if to compare him to Snoop Dawg. SOme flashy Superstar. That isn't the Jesus I know nor do I read about such a Jesus anywhere in the Scriptures or the testimonies of the Church Fathers.

That was totally random but there you have it. I also dont claim to be a connoisseur of CCM, so I would love to keep getting more suggestions on solid CCM artists.

In Christ,

James

PS: by the way, I should add that I really do appreciate a lot of the music of DC Talk because they do a good job at highlighting the struggles of CHrsitianity. I also have immense respect for them in regards to their Jesus Freak Books, a series of Volumes on "Jesus Freaks" people who have been persecuted/martyred for Christ's sake citing MANY Church Fathers East and West. Excellent Witness to protestants and Orthodox/Catholics alike!

I agree that that particular DC Talk song is bad theology and that's the one song performed by them that sticks out in my mind as one I stay away from. I also agree that most CCM music gives a wrong impression of worship. It's too emotional and I think it attempts to appeal to it's listener on a consumer level similar to other secular music. People like it because it's fast paced, and gets them all excited or makes them want to dance. This I think is a travesty and is one reason I became tired with Evangelicalism. I think it's wrong to substitute that music in Church to replace traditional modes of worship, but I don't see anything wrong with listening to Christian music as a substitute for secular music.

Besides, like I said before I am not really into CCM, but more a fan of worship music. Stephen Curtis Chapman, Chris Rice, Paul Baloche and a few others that I mentioned before are mostly what I like to listen to now. I know Stephen Curtis Chapman is coming to the Norfolk area in November and I would like to try and get tickets to see that concert.

[Theophorus]

I think it is generally disrespectful and in bad taste. The evangelical thinking that underpins it believes that in order for Christianity to be understood or practiced, it must be relevant, or conform to modern cultural expressions, and mores. In that way I do not see it as orthodox.

[Xpycoctomos]

Besides, like I said before I am not really into CCM...
Even if you were into CCM, I wouldn't be concerned for you. You seem to have a very healthy and balanced view on the good and bad of CCM. I was just posting some concerns I have regarding the Music, most of which you seem to agree with.

Thanks for your point of view.

Brother in Christ

James

PS: Xenia... regarding the Carman lyrics... :eek:

[Suzannah]

If King David was here
I know that he Would do the Holy Ghost Hop with me.
--------------

I apologize if these lyrics offend anyone, but I thought this would be instructive.

Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy.

-Xenia

:liturgy:

Lord have mercy!

Does this person have any concept of what worship is????
Or what reverence is????
Thanks for posting it...now I know exactly what to do with the "Christian" music CD my daughter got from a friend....It has this guy on it....should I just toss it or should I sit her down and tell her why we are throwing it away? Advice please?

[Reader Nilus]

The tripe has been around a good many years. When I was in college back in the early 70's there was this little ditty that the college Jesus People would sing:
Give me gas for my Ford keep me chuggin for the Lord,
Give me gas for my Ford I pray,
Give me gas for my Ford or I will trade it in for a Chevrolet
I have to this day not figured out what that had to do with any sort of religion.
Jeff the Finn

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The tripe has been around a good many years. When I was in college back in the early 70's there was this little ditty that the college Jesus People would sing:
Give me gas for my Ford keep me chuggin for the Lord,
Give me gas for my Ford I pray,
Give me gas for my Ford or I will trade it in for a Chevrolet
I have to this day not figured out what that had to do with any sort of religion.
Jeff the Finn
Ah, come on, Jeff! Where's your faith?!;) ^_^ Lord help me, I've actually taught kids that song at church camp! Here are some alternate verses, just for kicks:

Give me wax for my board, keep me surfin' for the Lord
Give me wax for my board I pray [halelluah!]
Give me wax for my board, keep me surfin for the Lord
Keep me surfin' 'till the break of day....

The original verses were this:

Give me oil for my lamp, keep it burning, burning, burning
Give me oil for my lamp i pray [halelluah!]
Give me oil for my lamp, keep it burning, burning, burning
Keep it burning 'till the break of day....

I think it was supposed to be referring to the parable of the virgins who had no oil for their lamps.

Now I'll lead everyone in our favorite song about Noah's Ark....

The Lord said to Noah, you better build an arky arky!
.....Build it out of.......gopher barky barky,
children of the Lord..............^_^

[Suzannah]

Now I'll lead everyone in our favorite song about Noah's Ark....

The Lord said to Noah, you better build an arky arky!
.....Build it out of.......gopher barky barky,
children of the Lord..............^_^

I remember that song!!!!! ^_^ Don't worry folks, there's only a hundred more verses!!!!

Actually, this brings to mind the fact that this summer, my daughter (age 9) went to Orthodox Christian camp...it's a WONDERFUL camp in Jackson, California in the Serbian diocese.... It's on a beautiful property in the trees and fields and they have a wonderful set up there. Anyway, I went to the "talent show" the last night of camp intending to pick her up the next day after camp was over...they did all these beautiful and I do mean ASTOUNDING LY BEAUTIFUL hymns, in Serbian.....but then they brought out the little children from age 5-7. These children were so precious and they sang, complete with hand motions :

The wise man built his house upon the rock,
The wise man built his house upon the rock,
The wise man built his house upon the rock,
And the rains came tumbling down!

The rains came down and the floods came up,
The rains came down and the floods came up,
The rains came down and the floods came up,
And the house on the rock stood firm.

The foolish man built his house upon the sand,
The foolish man built his house upon the sand,
The foolish man built his house upon the sand,
And the rains came tumbling down!

The rains came down and the floods came up,
The rains came down and the floods came up,
The rains came down and the floods came up,
And the house on the sand went SPLAT!

The blessings came down as the prayers went up
the blessings came down as the prayers went up!
The blessings came down as the prayers went up
And the house on the Rock stood firm!


It was one of the most precious things I think I have ever seen....The "choir director" was a monk from one of the monasteries....Funny how that same monk had a long entourage of children whereever he went. Everyone remarked at the lunch on the last day, how this monk seemed to be the "favorite" of all the children....:)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I remember that song!!!!! ^_^ Don't worry folks, there's only a hundred more verses!!!!

It was one of the most precious things I think I have ever seen....The "choir director" was a monk from one of the monasteries....Funny how that same monk had a long entourage of children whereever he went. Everyone remarked at the lunch on the last day, how this monk seemed to be the "favorite" of all the children....:)
I think it was St. Stylianos, who was also a monk, who had a similar effect on children. What a blessing!

[ufonium2]

Now that we've branched into the vacation Bible school realm, does anybody have a clue what we were supposed to learn from "Father Abraham"? For those of you unfamiliar with this one, it goes:

"Father Abraham had many sons.
Many sons had Father Abraham.
I am one of them and so are you.
So let's just praise the Lord, right arm!"

At this point you'd shake your right arm. Then you'd sing the exact same verse, only adding "left arm" to the end and then shaking both arms, then adding more body parts but repeating the exact same verse for like ten minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a musician and an extremely auditory learner, so I understand the benefit of putting things to music in order to learn. In fact, to this day I have to sing a Bible school song to remember the names of the Apostles. But, what is "Father Abraham" trying to teach?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Now that we've branched into the vacation Bible school realm, does anybody have a clue what we were supposed to learn from "Father Abraham"? For those of you unfamiliar with this one, it goes:

"Father Abraham had many sons.
Many sons had Father Abraham.
I am one of them and so are you.
So let's just praise the Lord, right arm!"

At this point you'd shake your right arm. Then you'd sing the exact same verse, only adding "left arm" to the end and then shaking both arms, then adding more body parts but repeating the exact same verse for like ten minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a musician and an extremely auditory learner, so I understand the benefit of putting things to music in order to learn. In fact, to this day I have to sing a Bible school song to remember the names of the Apostles. But, what is "Father Abraham" trying to teach?
Why, it teaches us that Abraham's sons, which means you and me, know how ta' get jiggy wit' it!!!:P ^_^

[Matrona]

I've got the joy joy joy joy down in my heart!
Where?
Down in my heart!
Where?
Down in my heart! I've got the joy joy joy joy down in my heart!
Where?
Down in my heart to stay! And if the devil doesn't like it he can sit on a tack!
Ouch!
Sit on a tack...

[Xpycoctomos]

now I know exactly what to do with the "Christian" music CD my daughter got from a friend....It has this guy [Carmen] on it....should I just toss it or should I sit her down and tell her why we are throwing it away? Advice please?I'm not a parent yet, but I would suggest making a learning experience out of it. SIt her down and talk to her about it. Show her where these songs (lyrics and attitudes) do and do not fit into Christianity (i.e. Orthodoxy). Throwing it out may just make her mad and/or more curious about such CDs. It might also give her the idea that Orthodoxy feels threatened easily. SInce she is 9, you probably don't want to get into deep theological issues. But explain to her that while God is always there for us, and while he wants us to speak to Him in our own words not lessening the importance of set prayers), talk to Him about our problems and our fears and thank him for all the blessings He's given us, He is also someone who deserves a lot of respect and that Jesus is not about being "in style" or "cool." He's a lot better than that. He's the one who will always be there for us no matter what and that sometimes this music can make Jesus seem less important and holy than He really is. And then talk to her about how the Liturgy helps us remember that He is Holy and what Holy even means.

These are only suggestions and obviously you have to change all of this to fit your daughter's personality, but hopefully it gives you some ideas. I would talk to her even if you decide to throw it out. Maybe also, if you have a CD burner or something, burn her a CD of the songs on that CD that you approve of. It's alright for her to have fun, but that Carman song is pitiful and offensive. I showed it to my Catholic roommate and after gasping for air he jokingly said he needed to go to confession tomorrow just for having read it. While he was joking, it's true that it leaves one with a sickening feeling... doesn't it? I would not want my children listening to disrespectful music like that, however good-willed (and innocently mislead) Carmen was when he wrote that.

Sorry about my babling.

God bless,

James

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The ironic thing is that Carmen was raised Roman Catholic.:o I've been to several of his concerts in the past. When he gives his "testimony" about being "radically saved" from "dead tradition", I'm sure it only contributes to the prevalent anti-Catholic attitude found in charasmatic evangelical circles.

[Dust and Ashes]

I don't listen to music much but I do like to sing some while I'm working or driving alone and I tend to fall back on many of the worship songs we sang at my former charismatic church. I'm very sensitive to the theological content but most of them are just choruses of worship and adoration.

What about "Gospel" music? Growing up in the South, I listened to a lot of it and some of those songs still speak to me even though I'm watchful of the theological content.

[Marjorie]

What about "Gospel" music? Growing up in the South, I listened to a lot of it and some of those songs still speak to me even though I'm watchful of the theological content.I love gospel! It makes me happy.

As for protestant "praise and worship" songs or CCM in general, they've never really been part of my life and to me they seem a little odd, but I have no big theological beef with them or anything, except when they're borderline heretical or whatever.

I have terrible music taste though.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Suzannah]

Now that we've branched into the vacation Bible school realm, does anybody have a clue what we were supposed to learn from "Father Abraham"? For those of you unfamiliar with this one, it goes:

"Father Abraham had many sons.
Many sons had Father Abraham.
I am one of them and so are you.
So let's just praise the Lord, right arm!"

At this point you'd shake your right arm. Then you'd sing the exact same verse, only adding "left arm" to the end and then shaking both arms, then adding more body parts but repeating the exact same verse for like ten minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a musician and an extremely auditory learner, so I understand the benefit of putting things to music in order to learn. In fact, to this day I have to sing a Bible school song to remember the names of the Apostles. But, what is "Father Abraham" trying to teach?
LOL!!!
I'm fairly certain that this is a skewed theological (???) take on the promise that God gave to Abraham in the OT and which was quoted in the NT by Jesus :

"Through you, all nations will be blessed!"

However, as the old apolgetic saying goes, "If I stand in my garage, and go beep!beep! over and over again, it will not make me a car."

[xenia]

Earlier I posted a polemic against CCM, but I ought to say that there are some perfectly harmless and even edifying praise songs, especially from the early days of the movement. Some of the earlier songs were just Psalms set to gentle folk guitar, and I think this music is quite lovely. It's not Church music, though. It's nice music to hummm along with as you're driving your car or doing chores, but it's not something that should take the place of the ancient hymns of the Church on Sunday morning.

-Xenia

[Patristic]

Earlier I posted a polemic against CCM, but I ought to say that there are some perfectly harmless and even edifying praise songs, especially from the early days of the movement. Some of the earlier songs were just Psalms set to gentle folk guitar, and I think this music is quite lovely. It's not Church music, though. It's nice music to hummm along with as you're driving your car or doing chores, but it's not something that should take the place of the ancient hymns of the Church on Sunday morning.

-Xenia

This is exactly how I feel. I like listening to Christian music in the car on my way to classes in the morning and on my way back home. I think it's a good substitute for the other nonsense they play on secular stations. Nevertheless, I don't like it when churches substitute this music for more ancient and traditional modes of worship.

[Xpycoctomos]

well stated guys! I agree.

[Suzannah]

I'm not a parent yet, but I would suggest making a learning experience out of it. SIt her down and talk to her about it. Show her where these songs (lyrics and attitudes) do and do not fit into Christianity (i.e. Orthodoxy). Throwing it out may just make her mad and/or more curious about such CDs. It might also give her the idea that Orthodoxy feels threatened easily. SInce she is 9, you probably don't want to get into deep theological issues. But explain to her that while God is always there for us, and while he wants us to speak to Him in our own words not lessening the importance of set prayers), talk to Him about our problems and our fears and thank him for all the blessings He's given us, He is also someone who deserves a lot of respect and that Jesus is not about being "in style" or "cool." He's a lot better than that. He's the one who will always be there for us no matter what and that sometimes this music can make Jesus seem less important and holy than He really is. And then talk to her about how the Liturgy helps us remember that He is Holy and what Holy even means.

These are only suggestions and obviously you have to change all of this to fit your daughter's personality, but hopefully it gives you some ideas. I would talk to her even if you decide to throw it out. Maybe also, if you have a CD burner or something, burn her a CD of the songs on that CD that you approve of. It's alright for her to have fun, but that Carman song is pitiful and offensive. I showed it to my Catholic roommate and after gasping for air he jokingly said he needed to go to confession tomorrow just for having read it. While he was joking, it's true that it leaves one with a sickening feeling... doesn't it? I would not want my children listening to disrespectful music like that, however good-willed (and innocently mislead) Carmen was when he wrote that.

Sorry about my babling.

God bless,

James


God bless you James...I think you're going to make a wonderful father someday! :hug:

This was exactly what I needed....Thank you...God bless you.\
Love,
Suzannah

[gzt]

I always liked the one about Zaccheus. Sometimes I get the urge to sing it, but I always forget how it goes after "A wee little man was he...".

I also always liked old-school Mississippi Delta blues, like Skip James, which obviously drew a lot from Gospel music and occasionally was explicitly Christian, though the theology is a bit suspect. But I don't think anybody is searching for spiritual guidance from Skip James, right?