Understanding Kabbalah

[Reformed Baptist]

Can anyone tell me what kabbalah is? I've heard what Madonna has to say, can anyone shed light on this topic for me?

[Reformed Baptist]

Before anyone answers, should this question be moved? I'm not sure where to ask and I thought it was somehow connected with Jewish mystical traditions...

[iitb]

Do a search for "kabbalah" in this forum. I think there are two threads that shouldn't be any further back than the second page.

[iitb]

Here are the two most recent discussions:
http://www.christianforums.com/t80926
http://www.christianforums.com/t67133

I will warn you that Kabbalah discussions never seem to go smoothly here. There are very strong opinions in both directions, so read at your own risk! ;)

[simchat_torah]

Just as a quick note:

There are two forms of Kabbalah. One is a secular paganistic and almost satanic form of Kabbalah, and is often spelled Qabalah. This is the form that Madonna and other celebrities follow. Then there is an ancient Jewish philospophy and form of spiritual expression that strictly is concerned with understanding G-d's attributes. That is the true Jewish Kabbalah.

That's just one thing everyone should udnerstand before delving into the topic.

Shalom,
yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Sorry Simchat, but as you are aware, I cannot agree with your statement. It is all a blur, or greater and lesser forms of the same thing, which is mysticism. No offense, just my personal opinion.

[simchat_torah]

Thank you for your opinion Higher Truth.


The two forms of Kabbalah do not resemble each other in any way what so ever. One form of Kabbalah has texts that study the attributes of G-d, his nature, his mercy, his justice, etc. This form of Kabbalah is based on ancient Jewish texts, mostly found and/or written in Spain. This form of Kabbalah rejects magic, paganism, New Age, etc. It is only concerned with studying G-d. It focuses soley on G-d.

The other form of Kabbalah, often called Qabalah, has nothing to do with studying G-d at all. It studies the 'power of man', new age theology, satanism, etc. This form of Qabalah rejects the study of G-d. This form of Qabalah does not base its doctrine on the ancient Jewish texts. It focuses soley on man.

They do not resemble each other in any way, shape, or form.
It is only the ignorance of people that lump the two together.

It would be the same as calling Gnosticism and Christianity the same thing. To the unscholarly eye, sure, they seem to be the same thing. To the ignorant, it would appear that Gnosticism and Christianity are the same religion. However, even with the slightist bit of scholarship we can see they are unique religions unto themselves. In the same way, one can see that Qabalah and Kabbalah have nothing in cammon and are not the same.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

Higher Truth,

Please understand I am not calling *you* ignorant, but rather the general populace who lumps the two forms of Kabbalah together into one.

shalom,
yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat,

No offense taken. We have some heated battles, but I do not take any of this personally, and once again, I respect your zealous nature.

Let's take a look at the author of the zohar, Moses ben Shem Tov of Leon. First of all, define the meaning of his name from the Hebrew. Then take a look at the name of Baal Shem Tov, founder of the modern day chassidic movement.


kabbalists have tried to define creation. Do you recognize any of these terms:

1]seven palaces in the uppermost of the firmaments.

2]contents of the palaces

3]the measurements and secret names of the body parts of the creator

4]the thirteen attributes of Gods mercy represented as the beard of one of the divine faces.

5]the tetragrammaton written magically, with each letter containing many circles of radiating light




I believe that these terms are from what you would consider legitimate kabbalah. David Stern, of The Complete Jewish Bible has even said publicly that "kabbala is a form of mysticism based on gnostic and other occult non-biblical importations into Judaism, and thus giving it no credibility." Also see Jewish New testament Commentary pg 643 item number 9. This is a guy who uses what some would consider to be kabbalist terminology stating this.

[Hix]

Moses ben Shem Tov de Leon was not the author of the Zohar. He lived in 13th century Spain and was the only person to be able to interperet this difficult text. The real author of the Zohar was Simon bar Yochai who lived in the 2nd century, it truely is amazing how the Zohar itself was created so long ago yet contains discoveries that science is only finding out in these modern times.

The Zohar is a midrashic commentary, a Midrash does not concern legal enactments and provisions, but merely inquires into the meaning and significance of the laws or where it only uses the words of Scripture as a vehicle to convey a moral teaching or a religious instruction and consolation.
As for David Stern we are talking about a man who added Yiddish words into the greek New Testament and had to retract comments he put about Rashi that were false.

So Higher Truth have you studied fully Kabbalah under an orthodox rabbi? Or is all your saying the information you have found over the internet? Either which way I respect your opinion and hope you dont take this as personal, G-d bless you!

[simchat_torah]

As for David Stern we are talking about a man who added Yiddish words into the greek New Testament ...

haha, exactly. David Stern has no formal education in either language or religion, has not studied Rabbinical Judaism, and is a christian. He simply added some Hebrewisms to his 'new testament'.

Not to be mean, but to use him as an 'authority' on Kabbalah is a joke.

I too would encourage those who want to define Kabbalah to talk to an Orthodox or Chassidic Rabbi. Otherwise, one is relying upon layers of misinformation on the always reliable (*sarcasm*) internet.

now, specifics my dear watson:
the thirteen attributes of Gods mercy represented as the beard of one of the divine faces.
The Thirteen attributes of G-d can be found in Exodus. This is not unique to Kabbalah.

the tetragrammaton written magically, with each letter containing many circles of radiating light
Sure, there are some fancy renditions of the tetragrammatron, but none of it is considered Magical in Kabbalah (the Jewish version, not the secular version).
Yes, the Tetragrammatron is understood to be a powerful word, and is to be reverred highly... it is the very name of G-d. But it is not magical.

the measurements and secret names of the body parts of the creator
I'm afraid that this is one of the greatest misunderstandings of Kabbalah. Kabbalah is never to be taken literally. It is highly symbollic.

I have explained this multiple times in other threads, but here is a small quotation:
Now, my own words:

What is Kabbalah? Kabbalah is literally 'the study of G-d's nature. It is studying G-d in a mystical nature, beyond literal physical knowledge. It has also been said that Kabbalah is like a Fire. The Torah is like an oven. A fire within an oven can bring warmth and food. A fire outside of an oven can bring destruction. When Kabbalah is contained with a Torah mindset and lifestyle it is productive. Kabbalah outside of Torah is a destructive force. Kabbalah is very symbollic in it's writings and was never meant to be taken literally.

However, there are fringe groups today that have taken Kabbalah literally. They also take Kabbalah outside of Torah. Some examples of this are: Yoga, Satanism, Mormons, etc.
=======================

======================
Earlier I had referenced that Kabbalah was meant to be symbollic, not literal. For example, there is a passage within a Kabbalistic text (Zohar) there is a story of a fisherman who cut open a fish and spilled it's guts on a stone table and was able to predict the future from this act. The story, as taught by the Zohar itself and by Rabbis, is figurative of G-d's mercy. It is highly symbollic. It was not meant to teach others to spill the guts of fish to predict the future. It was highly interprative of one of G-d's attributes: Mercy.

These symbollic descriptions are never meant to be taken literally. It is a way for our finite minds to understand the infinite.

G-d is infinite. We are finite. How can the finite understand the infinite? Let’s say that knowledge can be measured in units. Say you know 10 units of Knowledge. What percentage of G-d do you know?

0%

What if you knew 1,000,000,000 units of knowledge about G-d. What percentage of G-d do you know?

Still 0%



In otherwords, the Infinite is unknowable by the finite. Yet we are finite beings, nu? How do we maintain a relationship with that which we can never know????



How about this: You can not define G-d. IF you define him, you have just limited Him. If he is limited by a definition, he is no longer infinite.
You can never give G-d a definition.



How can we know that which is unknowable and undefinable?



Thus HaShem created “attributes”…. Or finite knowable symbols of his character. Does ‘mercy’ describe G-d? Yes. Does Judgement describe G-d? Yes. But Mercy and Judgement are opposing definitions. That is why you can not use the ‘attributes’ (or seferot) to define G-d… they are merely attributes of His Nature.



In the Book Essential Kabbalah Daniel Matt paints us two pictures. Imagine if you will several Jars. Each Jar is transparent but is tinted a certain color. When you put water, which is colorless, into one of the Jars, the water seemingly takes on the color of the Jar. However, you can move that same water to another jar of another color and it will take on that color as well. Ruach HaKodesh (the holy spirit) and HaShem are like the water. These ‘jars’ are the attributes. At times, HaShem seemingly is full of Mercy. Yet at other times he seems to be a Judge.



The other picture Matt paints is that of a stained glass window. As the light passes through the glass window it seeming changes color to whatever the stained glass is painted as. Yet the light itself is colorless. Can you define the light as “Blue” when it passes through a pane of glass? Obviously no. However, your eyes perceive the light to be blue at that time.



This is where Kabbalah comes into play, or rather the 'symbols' and 'attributes'… to help us understand (or perceive) the infinite unknowable G-d.


My final thoughts are on mysticism itself.
It is all a blur, or greater and lesser forms of the same thing, which is mysticism
It seems as though mysticism is being implied as inherrently evil. Mysticism is essentially acknowledging that HaShem is outside of the grasp of our finite minds. He is mystical in nature, beyond our understanding.

Thus we create philosophies and forms of 'mysticism' to grasp in our finite minds how magnificent and beyond us HE truly is.

I hope all of this helps.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Hix:

As for David Stern we are talking about a man who added Yiddish words into the greek New Testament ...

Simchat:
haha, exactly. David Stern has no formal education in either language or religion, has not studied Rabbinical Judaism, and is a christian. He simply added some Hebrewisms to his 'new testament'.

Not to be mean, but to use him as an 'authority' on Kabbalah is a joke.

HT:

I agree with much that you have stated and was not using him as any "authority". I do not use his "translation" or books, but many in the messianic movement hold him as an authority, so I felt that I should quote him. The only point that you stated that I disagree with, is that he labels himself as a messianic, not a Christian, and his "translation" terminology reflects this.


I will be back later with more questions and statements when I have a little time.

[simchat_torah]

He might be attending elsewhere as of late, but some odd years ago when I researched who this Stern guy was, he was attending a church in California.

[Shekinah]

He might be attending elsewhere as of late, but some odd years ago when I researched who this Stern guy was, he was attending a church in California.

As at least since 1998, Dr. Stern and his family had made aliyah, and were/are living in Israel.

Blessings.
Wanda

[Higher Truth]

Is PaRDeS a system developed by kabbalists to interpret Scripture? When did it come about and by whom?

[simchat_torah]

Yes, PaRDeS is used by Kabbalists. However, it was created as a system of interpretation long before Kabbalah was formalized.

The most basic explantion of PaRDeS:
It is a form of systematic theology, aka: a way to interpret scripture.

Whether one directly uses the PaRDeS system, everyone at one point or another views various verses of the Bible using the 4 levels of interpretation.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Moses ben Shem Tov was the first writer to mention the acronym PaRDeS. He did this around 1290 is a book titled Sefer Pardes. Hillel had a list of seven hermeneutical principles. A rabbi by the name of Yishmael expanded it to thirteen a century later. Eliezer ben Yose then took it to thirty two. None of these writers mention PaRDeS. It is a kabbalistic system invented by a sephardic kabbalist in the late 1200's, and is not a technique that was used by Yeshua and the apostles to interpret Scripture as some have errantly claimed.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

It seems as though mysticism is being implied as inherrently evil.

HT:

I personally do not fool with "mysticism". One of my main reasons is that it is a "fire" that will consume you. It starts out all love and light, but as you progress it becomes darker and darker, and ends up as a lust for personal power and esoteric knowledge. Unfortuantely, once you become involved, you will lose your ability to discern this.

The other reason that I stay from it is because it is forbidden in scripture:


Deuteronomy 18
9 When you come to the land which YHVH your Elohim is giving to you, you shall not learn to do according to the hateful acts of those nations.
10 There shall not be found in you one who passes his son or his daughter through the fire, one that uses divination, an observer of clouds, or one divining, or a whisperer of spells,
11 or a magic charmer, or one consulting mediums, or a spirit-knower, or one inquiring of the dead.
12 For all doing these things are an abomination to YHVH. And because of these filthy acts YHVH your Elohim is dispossessing these nations before you.
13 You shall be perfect with YHVH your Elohim.
14 For these nations whom you shall expel listen to observers of clouds, and to those divining. But as to you,YHVH your Elohim has not given to you to do so.


What do all of the above things we are warned against have in common? They are all forms of lust for a secret knowledge.Various books in mysticism were written by automatic writing, commonly know as channeling.They were written by men that were not believers in the Messiah. The Messiah clearly said that if you are not for Him, then you are against Him, therefore we have no business learning about Him using techniques developed by unbelievers.Many claiming to be Torah observant, are in fact by their actions, going against Torah. I find it funny that people in this movement will go on and on about Christmas being "pagan", and then turn around and use a system that came into the culture initially during the babylonian captivity, and then at a later time became a written system.Mysticism is not new , and has plagued the children of Elohim since the beginning of time. Why did Eve eat the apple? The lust for forbidden knowledge. Yes, mysticism has been around since the beginning of time, and the people who have relied on it as a means of learning, are the same ones who "missed", and are still missing the coming of the Messiah and His completed work.

[simchat_torah]

Hillel had a list of seven hermeneutical principles. A rabbi by the name of Yishmael expanded it to thirteen a century later. Eliezer ben Yose then took it to thirty two.

Hermeneutical principles are not the same as levels of understanding. Hermeneutical principles deal strictly with exegetical interpretation. This is a way to expount the scriptures by using context, other verses, and historical interpretation. It has nothing to do with spiritual application.

I might add that while it is true PaRDeS was not labelled as such until the 13th century, its concepts date much further back. The four levels of understanding/interpreting can be seen in the Talmud, Mishnah, and various other documents that are much more ancient than our good Rabbi Moshe ben Shem Tov.

Regardless, it does not automatically denote 'evil' because something can not be explicitly found in the first centuries.

As well, I could also argue that we don't have any Torah scrolls that date back to Moshe. Thus, in the same way, we have no physical evidence that the Torah was actually written by a man named Moshe.

Thus, one must look at historical and textual clues to gather evidence for the existence of the Torah, PaRDeS, etc.

The other reason that I stay from it (mysticism) is because it is forbidden in scripture:


Deuteronomy 18
9 When you come to the land which YHVH your Elohim is giving to you, you shall not learn to do according to the hateful acts of those nations.
10 There shall not be found in you one who passes his son or his daughter through the fire, one that uses divination, an observer of clouds, or one divining, or a whisperer of spells,
11 or a magic charmer, or one consulting mediums, or a spirit-knower, or one inquiring of the dead.
12 For all doing these things are an abomination to YHVH. And because of these filthy acts YHVH your Elohim is dispossessing these nations before you.
13 You shall be perfect with YHVH your Elohim.
14 For these nations whom you shall expel listen to observers of clouds, and to those divining. But as to you,YHVH your Elohim has not given to you to do so.


Once more Kabbalah is NOT magic. Nor is it divining, communicating with the dead, or any of the other horrific things you accuse it of.

As pointed out to you earlier, there are two forms of Kabbalah. Your refusal to seek guidance and instruction on this matter from an Orthodox Jew only compounds the ignorance you post. You base your interpretation of Kabbalah on your 'internet findings', not on something solid. Please stop making these accusations until you have actually studied out what it is you want to demonize.

They are all forms of lust for a secret knowledge
There is a difference between loving G-d and wanting to know him and a 'lust for knowledge'. I would say that your evaluation is incorrect. But this really boils down to a personal view.

Various books in mysticism were written by automatic writing, commonly know as channeling.[/qoute]
None of the Kabbalistic texts were written using 'channeling'. None.

Now this is where we need an accurate eye to discern between the two forms of Kabbalah. There is an anceint Jewish practice where one will meditate on... say a Hebrew letter for example... and begin writing ideas concerning this letter (or word, or concept, etc).

Channeling is directly involving a spirit controlling one's own body and this person becomes an empty vessel communicating a message. This is done in Qabalah. Not Kabbalah.

[quote]They were written by men that were not believers in the Messiah.
Careful achi... you are delving awefully close to antisemetic statements here.

The Messiah clearly said that if you are not for Him, then you are against Him, therefore we have no business learning about Him using techniques developed by unbelievers.
1) Orthodox Rabbis have pointed out, just as our dear friend Hix has done, that Kabbalah is much more ancient than the 13th century.
2) Once again you are bordering awefully close to antisemitism.

I'll touch on this again later. You know better Higher Truth.

Many claiming to be Torah observant, are in fact by their actions, going against Torah[/qoute]
This claim hasn't been verified yet.

[quote] find it funny that people in this movement will go on and on about Christmas being "pagan", and then turn around and use a system that came into the culture initially during the babylonian captivity, and then at a later time became a written system
So when was Kabbalah formed?
You keep changing your story!
Was it during Babylonian captivity? Was it during the 13th century? which was it?

Mysticism is not new , and has plagued the children of Elohim since the beginning of time.There is a difference between mysticism and magic.
Mysticism is a simple acknowledgement that there is more than meets the eye. We are but finite beings. HaShem is infinite.
He is mystical.
We are physical.

Why did Eve eat the apple? The lust for forbidden knowledge.
And as I pointed out multiple times earlier, Kabbalah is soley concerned with knowing G-d.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

As far as this debate is concerned. I think we have both made our points.

*You think Kabbalah is evil. I think that Kabbalah has wonderful insights into the nature of G-d.

*I think you haven't done your research and lump the two forms of Kabbalah together. You think there is no difference between Kabbalah and Qabalah.

So, unless there is anything new to present, I'd reccomend that we let our arugments stand. Don't get me wrong, if there's new evidence you want to bring to light, I'll certainly be glad to debate those issues, but at this point there's nothing new.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

1) Orthodox Rabbis have pointed out, just as our dear friend Hix has done, that Kabbalah is much more ancient than the 13th century.

HT:

Since Hix lists their age as eighteen, they probably have not studied kabbalah under the supervision of a rabbi as you state needs to be done to have knowledge and understanding.

As I pointed out as well:

"and then turn around and use a system that came into the culture initially during the babylonian captivity, and then at a later time became a written system."


Simchat:

So when was Kabbalah formed? You keep changing your story! Was it during Babylonian captivity? Was it during the 13th century? which was it?


HT:

As stated above, the exposure initially came to the Jews during the captivity, and the sephardics in Spain came up with a defined written system.

Simchat:

Your refusal to seek guidance and instruction on this matter from an Orthodox Jew only compounds the ignorance you post.

HT:

Should I seek out a Lubavitcher, who certainly would be considered orthodox. Through the use of kabbalah as a form of scriptural interpretation, they determined that their rebbe was the Messiah.They were very disillusioned when he did not return. There is a history of this occuring.


Simchat:

2) Once again you are bordering awefully close to antisemitism.

HT:

Let's not use the anti-semitism card in place of scholarship. This is a ludicrous accusation, as some of my family members are known as Reuven and Levi, and a host of others. Is the statement below not true?

"They were written by men that were not believers in the Messiah."

[simchat_torah]

Since Hix lists their age as eighteen, they probably have not studied kabbalah under the supervision of a rabbi as you state needs to be done to have knowledge and understanding.
The 40 year old age requirement has since been done away with.

Through the use of kabbalah as a form of scriptural interpretation, they determined that their rebbe was the Messiah.
I have read many articles and discussed with Lubavitcher Rabbis the idea of the Great Baal Shem Tov as Messiah, and not a single one of them used Kabbalah as a proof. I've never seen that once.
They interject that he fulfilled various scriptures.

Should I seek out a Lubavitcher, who certainly would be considered orthodox.
;)
This would be a start! ;)


Let's not use the anti-semitism card in place of scholarship.
Well, you attempted to use the idea that since they have a false messiah we can toss scholarship out the window.

However, I'm not proposing the idea we replace antisemetic rhetoric with scholarship. I was both pointing out a false proof and protecting the Jewish community at the same time.

Is the statement below not true?

"They were written by men that were not believers in the Messiah."
Yes, the statement is true, but does that make them evil?

When one assumes evil where others don't accept the messiah, they are entering antisemitism.

This is what Hitler did, this is what you would suppose we should do.

I'm sorry, but I won't bite.
Shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

Now again, achi... if you don't have something new to bring up, might we drop this debate?

If you honestly do have new material, I'd be glad to address it. But I don't want us to continue beating this dead horse.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

Yes, the statement is true, but does that make them evil?

HT:

I have never stated that my un-believing Jewish brothers and sisters are evil. Many of my closest friends are un-believing Jews, and one is even a former Lubavitcher. I am stating that by using this system to interpret scripture, the outcome is incorrect. Many could end up following a false messiah due to this.

[iitb]

Honestly, fellas, I think you've been baited. The original poster picked the one topic in this forum that can create pages and pages of heated debate...and then never returned.

[simchat_torah]

Actually Justin, you've been baited. Reformed Baptist, HT, and myself were all in a conspiracy together just to get you to make the above statement.

Now you owe me 5 bucks.

[iitb]

Ah, you suckered me in. ;)

I hope we're talking $5 Canadian.

[LibertyChic]

Actually Justin, you've been baited. Reformed Baptist, HT, and myself were all in a conspiracy together just to get you to make the above statement.

Now you owe me 5 bucks.

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]!! You made me snort on that one!! ^_^

[Higher Truth]

Hey Simchat....I get $1.66 of that.... which is about .40 after the US exchange rate.

[simchat_torah]

ouch, that's a hefty penalty achi.

;)

at least you're not paying in pesos.

[simchat_torah]

Ok, let's change the course of this discussion a bit...

Y'shua and Sha'ul quoted from Rabbinical sources that did not accept Y'shua as HaMoshiach... not only did they quote from these sources, but even used their methods of interpretting scripture.

How do you deal with this Higher Truth?

Shalom ;)
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:


Y'shua and Sha'ul quoted from Rabbinical sources that did not accept Y'shua as HaMoshiach... not only did they quote from these sources, but even used their methods of interpretting scripture.

How do you deal with this Higher Truth?

HT:

Judaism today, and Judaism of the first century differ from each other. The kippa for example, is a latter addition. Messiah and the apostles most probably wore tallit in the temple.This is most likely what Paul was holding as the crowd stoned Steven. If you want to discuss these things, you need to be a little more specific. Are you referring to talmud? We all know who Pauls mentor was initially, but he finished his schooling under the tutelege of the Holy Spirit and the Messiah. Did Messiah and the apostles use PaRDeS to interpret Scripture? This you would need to prove, because it would go against what Scripture actually teaches us.

[simchat_torah]

Did Messiah and the apostles use PaRDeS to interpret Scripture? This you would need to prove, because it would go against what Scripture actually teaches us.

Actually, scripture does not give us an answer on how to interpret itself.

shalom,
yafet.