Help how much in trouble is she?

[dyke]

Hello you all!

Im new here and I got a question for all you friends.

I got a friend, she lives in Australia, her parents are Greek orthodox christians, they found out recently that she is gay. I spoke to her on the phone and she told me that she can never talk to me again because she is big trouble and that she can't have any contact with anybody anymore. From the tone of her voice I know that she is in big trouble. Her parents locked her up in her room a few times and used violence against her. Please be honest is she in big trouble? Does she HAVE to get married, or maybe she will be kidnapped and be taken back to Jordan where she is from...who can inform me a little about it.

Thanks a lot!
Love,
Dyke:bow: :kiss:

[Oblio]

Welcome to TAW. :wave:

If she is a practicing lesbian she needs prayer and to be brought to repentance. A continued life of willfull sin counter to the word of God will bring her far more trouble than her parents have. Violence by her parents is not the answer to this, prayer and the work of the Holy Spirit is.

[dyke]

Thanks for your reply...I understand that orthodox christians are against homosexuality? In what way? What will happen if you are? Can you tell me something more about your religion?

Thanks

Love,
dyke:bow: :kiss:

[vanshan]

If her parents resort to violence, they need our prayers as well.

I would think her choices are a reasonable cause for sorrow, but she has liberty to make decisions for herself. I think we all would agree that anyone who is led around like a bull with a ring in its nose by distorted desires for someone of the same gender is injuring themselves spiritually. We all are guilty of living by our passions too much, so no one can cast stones at her or you, but for your health and well-being consider resisting any desires you have for other women. You are created in God's image and have a much greater purpose in this life and the one to come than living out an identity defined by sexuality.

Basil

[Orthosdoxa]

As Oblio said, welcome. :)

We understand homosexuality to be against God's plan for man, as Any sin committed by Anyone is. We believe that sex was designed only for a man and a woman who are sacramentally united in marriage.

I don't know what will "happen" if an Orthodox Christian is gay. They do need to repent and abstain from sinful behaviour, however. I personally believe that it is not something someone chooses, but rather a podvig that someone is born with, ie, a struggle - we are all born with the propensity towards certain sins, just because of the fallen world we live in. Somebody struggling with same sex attraction is to be loved, accepted, and prayed for. However, someone living in willful sin, in open and purposeful defiance of the Church's teachings, is another story. They will most likely be excommunicated until such time as they repent, and once they do, welcomed back with open arms. Excommunication is not a punishment per se, but more like a medicine intended to help them get better, as well as to protect them.

I feel sorry for people that struggle with this issue. Their feelings, which are not their choice, are not sinful, IMO. But their behaviours can be. They need to repent - as do we all.

Katherine

[Orthosdoxa]

You are created in God's image and have a much greater purpose in this life and the one to come than living out an identity defined by sexuality.

Basil
Beautifully stated, and so true.

[Akathist]

You asked about what kind of trouble she is in. I am thinking that you are not thinking about what kind of "eternal trouble", but rather what kind of trouble is she in with her parents.

I noticed a reference to the country of Jordan in your post.

Please understand that what I am saying is a guess. I have an understanding of the culture of Jordan equilvalent to someone with one or two college classes in the subject and some college friends from Jordan. That is it.

I suspect that her trouble with her parents is unrelated to their "Orthodox" beliefs and more cultural in nature. Within Orthodoxy there is a strong belief (to my limited understanding of Orthodoxy) that no one is allowed to judge another. However, parents have a responsibility to use their influence to assist a child to abstaining from sinful behavior.

However, in Jordan culture there are less liberal beliefs (in some people) who see women and especially a female child as property on some level. (Not that they don't love their children, they do, but the attitudes don't include a lot of "rights" for children. Please note, many American's have this same belief but it is rarely exposed publically.)

She might be forced to marry. She might not be allowed the freedom to come and go as she wishes.

But these are not "Orthodox" beliefs. This would be based upon "Jordan" cultural standards which have their origin in a conservative branch of Islam. (And again, this does not reflect all of Islamic theology too for I am sure that many would argue that Islam also does not teach the loss of individual freedom even for women in its more liberal form.) (For example, the President of Saudia Arabia is an Islamic woman.)

Within Orthodoxy, from my understanding, she would not be allowed to take communion if she was actively living a lifestyle of sin. (And, no one living with their boyfriend could take communion either, this is not just applied in one instance.)

Everyone committs sins every day. Our prayer life is full of repentence. As long as we are seeking to abstain from sin and repent from past sin, we maintain our standing with the church community and therefore may partake fully of the sacraments. (At least those who are Orthodox by birth or conversion.)

[Akathist]

Did I manage to write my comments in an unoffensive fashion?

If not, I humbly ask for forgiveness.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Did I manage to write my comments in an unoffensive fashion?

If not, I humbly ask for forgiveness.
I think you were fine.:) I was going to address the issue of cultural influence (Jordan is a conservative Muslem country), but you did it better than I could. I was going to give more of a reply, but I don't trust myself to do it properly. I'll either come across as too preachy or somehow wishy-washy. You guys did a great job, I think.

[Happy Orthodox]

Oftenly children of Orthodox Christians have weakened faith or even no faith whatsoever. It depends on the parents, I think. If parents are too strict and too "pushy" (like force their kids to go to church, pray and fast with threats to punish them), children grow resistance to religion. And that drives the parents even more crazy. Orthodoxy should be voluntary even for children, and when someone tries to force it, they get the opposite result (I think that is the case with any religion also). So, if that girl is consciously and voluntary chooses to sin and not be in the church, she should be given that. But if she admits that her passion is bad, and is voluntary choosing to fight her sin, then that is a different story. However, in many countries that are traditionally Orthodox (especially in the Middle East and close areas), she might be forced, as said above, to marry or to do something else. And that again depends on the parents and where they live. Boy, that aint a happy family there! I personally have no idea how this all would end, but it's all in God's hands.

[Alfred M]

I think everone's answers have been marvelous! Just to reinforce what others have said, yes to practice homosexuality is in direct conflict with the Orthodox faith, yet we do not presume to judge another's state of repentance. If in open defiance to a priest's instruction excommunication could result.

I believe too, that homosexuality is an inborn trait but also as stated above, each of us probably has a heavy cross that we bear...whether that be sexual in nature, pride, covetting, gossiping, or any other myriad of sins in which we fall short of the glory intended by God. We must struggle and make conscious decisions to develop the image of Christ that is within us all. Spiritual warfare it may be called...and the battlefield is in your heart.

I agree to with the cultural aspect addressed by thornygrace. Rest assured that your friend is loved by God as much as anyone...it is what we choose to do with that love that will determine the homeland of our hearts.

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred, chief of all sinners

[dyke]

First of all I would like to thank you for your replies. I got a mail from 2 moderators that I have to change my name, because it's offensive. How can a closing dam be offensive???? Im from Holland, that's why I picked the name. We have many dykes here...without them we would need straws to breathe! We would be literally under water! That the name is used for lesbians too...well yeah...but there are many names given to gay people.

Love,
Dyke

[Father Rick]

Well...

I'm Old Catholic not Orthodox, but our views on this are identical to the Orthodox.

For what it's worth, I can only say 'ditto' to everything that has been posted so far.

When you change your username, drop back in and let us know. We'll be glad to answer any questions you may have.

Pax Christi!

[Basileus]

I don't know about the rest of you...but I am NOT falling for this!!!:mad:

[vanshan]

This may be a topic for another thread, but I'm really not interested in this topic to start a new one. I just think it's interesting how many say they believe homosexuality is inborn.

One psychologist at Columbia University did a study showing that it is possible for homosexuals to change their orientation. Dr. Spitzer was actually one of the psychologists who worked to have homosexuality removed from the DSM catalogue of disorders, but, to his own surprise, his study a few years ago concluded it is possible to change orientation, which to me seems to indicate that homosexuality is not programmed into anyone. It is perhaps a product of conditioning, just like Pavlovs dog learning to salavate at a bell. I think with the right stimuli we can probably sexualize almost anything. We can see some of this by the diverse fetishes and orientations that exist.

Study: www.newdirection.ca/research/spitzer.htm


Basil

[MaRiNa_Orthodox]

Noone was born homosexual. It's the satana that wants us to think that so that everyone accepts it, and soon everyone will. And when satana gets into everyones hearts and we accept that then his job is done and he will be satistifed. Homosexuality is a big sin becuse God made Adam and Eve to love each other, not Adam and Steve. And if it was normal to be homo why don't homos make children as a product of their "love" like God said boy and girl should? And if it was true that ppl are born homo than why would our Lord make us gay if he makes us by the way he looks like? Even thogh i think like this, I think treating gays like that is very very wrong because I see them as ppl who have problems with sins just like all of us, except that their sin is very very big but that doesn't mean we don't have even bigger sins. I think homosexuality can be cured and that's not with medicines but faith in God. As someone said, maybe for them it has to be their biggest podvig(hey we say same in Serbian, is it an English word?) adn i am sure if they win that sin they will be blessed by God more than any of us. Now since I come from culture similar to Greek I will tell you why her parents did what they did. In Balkan cultures it's considered immoral and something very very bad when someone is gay. And if someone is gay, it makes the whole family look bad and it's just a big catastrophe. If it's about guys, it's even bigger shame because they are the ones that will carry out the last name of the family and if they are gay family won't go on, plus being gay is considered unmanly and ppl who are gay are looked down upon(that's a cultural thing, it has nothing to do with Orthodoxy). I even heard about some ppl from my ****ry that kicked their child out of the house because he is gay and told him that devil is in him and untill it gets out of him, he is not welcomed. Now for girls that are gay it's the same deal. First of all it's a big shame and it's considered so bad if a girl is gay. Second of all, in a culture where your parents wait their whole life to have grandchildren and take care of them(like my grandma did to me and my sisters) how will they have grandchildren if their daughter is lesbian? I guess because Balkan cultures are so much about being a man(a very manly one) and being a girl that is a girl type(stay home, clean, make dinner and stuff like that) it is considered the worst thing if u r gay. I dunno what else to say. I am sure this parent's decision is not because they are religious, but because they think being gay is so wrong and don't want their own daughter to be one and make their whole family name ashamed. that's what I think, now who knows what really lays behind this. I hope you find out and I hope they stop beating her and start helping her. I hope i helped at least a little bit. Bye byez

P.S. Sorry again if this offended some people here

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Marina, thanks for sharing some of your culture with us!:thumbsup:

[Eusebios]

[mod hat on] This is not the appropriate forum for discussions regarding the issue of homosexuality. I'm affraid this thread is going places it ought not go, particularly due to some cultural and linguistic aspects. As others have stated, the op is more than welcome to ask questions here, but we need to keep things in their appropriate places. This thread is now closed.[/mod hat]