Do you feel like a liberal "NOC agent"

[McCravey]

How many of you feel like you have been "implanted" into a congregation that doesn't understand you.

When I talk about Christ in my Sunday School class I get a lot of blank stares. A handful of people understand what I am talking about but 98% (just an estimate) don't. Sometimes I wonder why God has me there.

Use this thread to share your thoughts about your situation.

[Toney]

I would really like to know more about your situation, if you feel like sharing.

Some years ago, I recall reading a book written by a clergyman whose daughter had observed, "Dad, you (Christianity) have correct answers to questions no one is asking any longer," or words to that effect.

If God has you speaking to only 2% of your Sunday School class, what are their questions?

[NOC = No Official Cover]

[Treasure the Questions]

There are two possibilities. Perhaps McCravey is out of touch with what people find relevant today, but it could be that for most people Christianity is just something they tack onto the rest of their lives and don't take too seriously, so if McCravey is really trying to follow Jesus they might not understand his perspective.

I've certainly found it's hard to get people talking about what it really means to follow Christ.

Karin

[Polycarp1]

My wife and I spent twenty years in the Episcopal Country Club in our home town -- actually, it's a large stone church given by a Governor's daughter in memory of her father, but the ambience was far more country club than worshipping community. And we discovered that the best thing about beating your head against a brick wall is how good you feel after you stop. So I can surely relate.

Now we belong to a church whose theology, practice, and community spirit is almost perfectly on target for what I want -- slightly too laid-back for her more ceremonially-oriented taste, but not at all bad by her standards either. And it's like "I've served my time in Purgatory, and it made me appreciate Heaven the more!" :)

[GreenPartyVoter]

Well, I am a liberal Christian attending a conservative evangelical "Bible-believing" church. And I am afraid to come of out the closet there as far as my thoughts on God. *lol*

If I did come out, not only would I get blanks stares, I would either get people really mad (What do you mean the Fall of Man is allegorical only?) or they'll try to "save" me from my "perversion" of their faith. :P

[CaDan]

Well, I am a liberal Christian attending a conservative evangelical "Bible-believing" church. And I am afraid to come of out the closet there as far as my thoughts on God. *lol*

If I did come out, not only would I get blanks stares, I would either get people really mad (What do you mean the Fall of Man is allegorical only?) or they'll try to "save" me from my "perversion" of their faith. :P

Likely they would have no idea what you were talking about!

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Well, we need every type of Christian in every type of church! All hand churches work no better than all feet churches!

[Kaonashi]

I have felt like that many times. I often get blank stares from the others in my youth group when I talk about Christ and my youth pastor has even questioned my salvation several times. They would rather question my salvation because of the questions I have been asking rather then answer my questions. I would leave and find another church but my 13 year old sister really likes this AOG church we are at now. I feel guilty already for dragging her around church after church with me.

[CaDan]

I have felt like that many times. I often get blank stares from the others in my youth group when I talk about Christ and my youth pastor has even questioned my salvation several times. They would rather question my salvation because of the questions I have been asking rather then answer my questions. I would leave and find another church but my 13 year old sister really likes this AOG church we are at now. I feel guilty already for dragging her around church after church with me.

I think you have stumbled on the definition of liberal Christian--the ones who ask the questions. And we won't stop asking until we get some answers!

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Indeed. Take Karin's screen name, for example - Treasure the Questions.

That, of course, is a quote from Saint Martyn of Wales, aka Martyn Joseph, who also wrote "Liberal Backslider" - a phrase you may have seen around the place ;)

[Polycarp1]

Indeed. Take Karin's screen name, for example - Treasure the Questions.

That, of course, is a quote from Saint Martyn of Wales, aka Martyn Joseph, who also wrote "Liberal Backslider" - a phrase you may have seen around the place ;)
...And of whom I'd never heard -- but if he inspired you two in particular enough to take your screen names from his works, it sounds like I've got some interesting reading ahead of me. Any recommendations on which books to start with/ avoid until I've read other stuff by him/etc.?

[Treasure the Questions]

He hasn't written any books. He's a singer/songwriter. http://www.piperecords.co.uk/martynj/

He started out singing songs for an evangelical audience, but I think it gradually dawned on him that the mainstream evangelical view was too simplistic. He went to Thailand with Chrisitian Aid in his late 20's/early 30's and that impacted his songs quite powerfully. He seems to be changing direction again, not so sure about promoting the Christian faith and more interested in interacting with the pain of everyday life, but that might change again, who knows. He is on his own journey of life and faith and the path seems to be winding at the moment.

Thunder and Rainbows is his "best of", and definitive album.

P.S. he mentions "dented saints" in a song. I think he'd see himself as one of those, if any sort of saint.

He'll be in Canada and the US very soon:

September

16 Sept, Hugh's Room, Toronto ON, (tel: 416-531-6604)
17 Sept, Brantford Folk Club, Best Western, Brant Park Inn, Brantford, ON, (tel: 519-759-7676)
18 Sept, Live at the Schoolhouse, Peterborough, ON (tel: 705-743-9908)
19 Sept, Black Sheep Inn, Wakefield, PQ, (tel: 819-459-3228)
20 Sept, Billy Bob Productions, Club One, Montreal, QC, (tel: 514-393-1663)
23 Sept, Acoustic Celebration, Temple Shearith Israel, Ridgefield CT, (tel: 203-431-6501)
25 Sept, Pawtucket Arts Festival, Stone Soup Folk Festival, Pawtaucket RI, (tel: 401-724-5200)
26 Sept, The Point, Bryn Mawr, PA, (tel: 610-527-0988)
30 Sept, Schuler Books, Grand Rapids, MI, (tel: 616-942-9660)

October

1 Oct, Milwaukee Irish Festival, Irish Fest Center, Milwaukee WI, (tel:414-476-8999)
2 Oct, Cafe Carpe, Ft. Atkinson WI, (tel: 920-563-9391)
3 Oct, Cedar Cultural Center, Minneapolis MN, (tel: 612-338-2674)
http://www.piperecords.co.uk/martynj/TourDates_assets/Hor_Line.gif

[McCravey]

Well I'm back from the storm. I've read your comments and based on that I would like to add some further explanation.

I live in a very fundamental Christian community....dominated by Southern and Independent Baptists, Pentecostal, and other non affiliated churches.

I am a fundamentalist by training. But I had questions...or better yet, God inspired my questions. It became somewhat like a conversation.

He put questions in my mind....and he gave me different meanings or definitions to words I already knew.

I began to dream and my dreams were instructional in nature. They began to change the way I thought, and the way I now think.

That's when I realized that my faith was more than I thought it was.

I came to realize that my faith was founded on shaky ground. It was based on the words and teachings of men. When God began to teach me it was clearer and from a different perspective....a different way to think (let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus....)

Before my mind was running off my AC (alternating current) and now it is running off of DC (Direct Current), (just an analogy, of course). When you find your mind switching over your thinking straightens out.

The problem with this is you no longer have easy answers, and then God asks you to teach...with only questions...few answers.

I don't teach by stating the facts...Or this is the way it is..etc. I just teach from that way of thinking. It seems to unravel traditional thinking.

I felt like I was undermining the teachings of my church, like a spy sent in to sow discord (a NOC agent, like I said), there are a few people who like everything I say, come to my class, then don't go into the church to hear the preacher. They just leave after my class.
This became uncomfortable for me and I tried to quit. When I did God stopped showing me things...I went dry, so I prayed about it. The next day my pastor asked me to take the class back again. I said yes, and started back, doing it all over again. Every now and then my pastor asks me to preach...even though I seem to be terrible at it. I get the same look every time I teach or preach...a blank look, a few compliments, then nothing, with a handful of people almost in tears thinking it was the best thing they've ever heard.

I guess that's the reason I like the liberal forum. Plenty of questions that are OK to ask....and not many easy answers.

[artybloke]

I think you have stumbled on the definition of liberal Christian--the ones who ask the questions. And we won't stop asking until we get some answers!

And then we'll ask some more questions about the answers we just got!

[sculpturegirl]

I find myself constantly asking questions, and sometimes I come to conclusions. Often the conclusions I come to look very much like conservative conclusions (especially about lifestyle choices), but seem to come from a different way of thinking. I don't know if that makes any sense.

I feel that I am neither conservative nor liberal, nor am I lukewarm (quite the contrary- I am very passionate about everything and it is exausting!) Where does that leave me? Is anyone else here, too?

[Treasure the Questions]

Well, as someone who could be called a liberal, I think "conservative lifestyle choices", may just mean that you take your faith and what Jesus requires of you seriously, which many liberals do. With our emphasis on God's love and grace, though we are more likely to realise that God loves us as we are and forgives us our sins, and we hopefully show a whole lot more grace to our fellow sinners than some conservative Christians do. Being a liberal Christian doesn't mean we feel a licentious lifestyle is OK. :)

Karin

[sculpturegirl]

Well put, Karin, thank you :)

[seebs]

I do grant that liberals are often more likely to do things which other people consider "sinful" than conservatives - however, I think that this is largely a result of modern phariseeism, where people make up elaborate lists of ways you can avoid offending God without any hint of actually changing your nature.

In other words... Liberals are more likely to listen to rock music, and less likely to avoid rock music while feeling smug about being better than people who listen to rock music.

Maybe sometimes the liberals are "too liberal" - they do something which really is wrong.

SO WHAT? We are forgiven our shortcomings and errors; what is important is not any specific action we take or don't, but our attitude of love for God and neighbor. It is not identifying a specific sin and repenting that matters; it is learning about your sinful nature and repenting of it in general. If you miss a few spots, God can clean them up - but if you only clean up a few spots, and ignore the underlying whole... Well, I guess He can handle that, too.

[Treasure the Questions]

I agree Seebs. I think Jesus asks us to take risks, and sometimes even to risk sinning or ignoring someone else's sin, if by taking that risk we can reach out to others and enjoy his purpose us for, or help others to enjoy the purpose he intended them for. They say love covers a multitude of sins and I think that's true for God's love, too.

I'm not saying we should sin deliberately, but I think it is better to mix with other people in the world around us in order to put God's love into action and risk being "led into temptation" than to sit in a "holy huddle" afraid to interact with the world in case you are led astray.

Karin

[Duggie]

It's amazing how easy it is to be in-doctrinated into a specific fellowship's ways and attitudes. I remember when I first became a Christian and I was attending, what I considered to be a progressive, outward looking, open church. I knew the Pastor and had many friends who attended there and equally who could relate to the kind of background I came from. At the time I had long dreadlocks and never in my life were they an issue. When I went for a job, when I was at uni etc.. but then one day after the church service the Pastor approached me and offered me a position as youth leader. I was pleased and very enthusiastic about it because I knew that this was something I felt called to do. Anyway, she told me that it would be a good idea if I cut my hair. I was slightly taken aback by her proposal and asked her why she felt I needed to cut my hair. She thought that my appearance should be smart and it would be a way of showing God that I'm no longer associated with a certain lifestyle and I'm moving on. I felt strongly that she was missing the point and that God wasn't looking at my hair, He was more concerned with my heart. I thought long and hard about it and decided to cuy my hair because I wanted to work with these young people and I felt it was worth it. I stayed there for a couple of years and learnt so much and witnessed things that totally blew my mind, but I wasn't at peace. They didn't touch alcohol, listen to anything other than Christian music etc.. It was inward looking and very difficult to have an identity of your own. I left the church and unfortunately my leaving wasn't amicable, which I found discouraging and hurtful.
If you have come from a certain background and as a result can identify with certain people then I believe that as Christians we should be able to not only love those people, but also relate to them. That doesn't mean that I should follow them to the clubs or do drugs with them or even listen to some of the music they listen to. However I should be able to be in their presence without them thinking I'm any different to them or worst still, better than them. My friends know I'm a Christian and they know that God has changed certain aspects of my life. Never do I want to become this person that says you must look a certain way or think as I do, if you want to be a Christian. In order for us to reach the world, we don't have to be worldy, but we must have an appreciation of who people are and be able to understand and love them regardless. :)