Is Jesus a "pagan" name?

[Higher Truth]

Many in the sacred name movement, and even some in the messianic movement have stated that Jesus is a pagan name, and is not valid. Does the name Jesus have a real etymological origin? Many have also stated that the name God is of pagan origin as well. Any opinions?

[Pray4Isrel]

I am so very glad you started a thread on this. It is something I have always wanted to discuss, but didn't know how to ask without sounding silly :sorry:

I really would like more evidence about the pagan origins of the name Jesus, if there is any. I have assurance though that Messianics aren't going to be the only one that make it to heaven... I believe we will see many of our Christian friends there as well... and though they call Him "Jesus", Yeshua knows their hearts and how can their lack of education on the origins of His name hold them back from truly knowing Him personally? Does the Messiah not know their intentions? If they have called upon His name in order to receive Salvation, can that Salvation be denied just because they cried out "Jesus" instead of "Yeshua"? I don't think so.

What I try to do is tell my Christian friends about the Name Yeshua. That it will add a dynamic to their relationship with Messiah and I encourage them to explore the Jewish roots of the Faith.

[simchat_torah]

I have a friend who has his Doctorates in Greek. He has his masters in Divinity and a doctorates in Greek. He is not messianic, just a christian. He was the first to point out to me some of the origins of the Greek name. I will get to that later though, possibly posting some of the notes I wrote down when I studied with him. However, I'm really not wanting to get into this subject too deeply right now.

I also have another friend that goes to Princeton and studies under Dr. Charlesworth. He too has a number of insights into the greek name (which is what we base our English transliteration off of).

I'll see if I can get him to come and make a few posts at our humble forum. He is truly a brilliant person. Actually, he was the best man at my wedding and I was his.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

I will make note that the idea of the name "j e s u s" coming from pagan origins does not originate with the Sacred Namers. While they have lept onto that with a vengence, it is not originally a Sacred Name idea.

I personally have little to no respect for the Sacred Name movement. Its very gross in what it has done and created. But that's another discussion all together.

[Pray4Isrel]

Yafet, thank you for all the information. I would love to hear from your friends on the subject as this topic greatly interests me.

I agree with you about the Sacred Name mvmnt... it is quite fractioned within itself and seems not to adhere to a specific structure... and on top of that it is very confusing.

[BenTsion]

Higher Truth,
Heresy often starts when a symbol becomes as important as what it symbolizes. Though symbols are meaningful and helpful in our spiritual growth, we must be careful not to worship the symbol itself. That is truth about anything, such as the Lord's supper (some churches believe it is only valid if we use red wine and bread - but what about an indian tribe in Amazon, where are they going to get wine or wheat?), baptism (many churches believe only immersion is valid - if you've been sprinkled than you're not baptized), and even our L-RD's name.

Just as Yeshua illustrated how the altar is more important than the offerings on it, we must be careful not to focus on the wrong things. I love the name "Yeshua" because it is original and meaningful (it means salvation... the name Jesus means nothing), but do you rely on a bunch of letters put together for salvation or do you rely on the L-RD G-D manifested in flesh? Sacred-Name theology is heresy to say the very least. If you named a garden fairy 'Yeshua' and relied on it for salvation, would you be saved? It simply doesn't make any sense!

As for the origin of the name, Jesus derives from the Greek IESOUS... it is not pagan. The apostles probably used that name when preaching to many gentiles in the Roman world (Greek was the lingua franca much like English is nowadays). I prefer to use the name 'Yeshua' because it is far more meaningful (plus I wouldn't like to have my name translated), but I cannot condemn anyone for calling our lord and savior Jesus.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Pray4Isrel]

Higher Truth,
Heresy often starts when a symbol becomes as important as what it symbolizes. Though symbols are meaningful and helpful in our spiritual growth, we must be careful not to worship the symbol itself. That is truth about anything, such as the Lord's supper (some churches believe it is only valid if we use red wine and bread - but what about an indian tribe in Amazon, where are they going to get wine or wheat?), baptism (many churches believe only immersion is valid - if you've been sprinkled than you're not baptized), and even our L-RD's name.

Just as Yeshua illustrated how the altar is more important than the offerings on it, we must be careful not to focus on the wrong things. I love the name "Yeshua" because it is original and meaningful (it means salvation... the name Jesus means nothing), but do you rely on a bunch of letters put together for salvation or do you rely on the L-RD G-D manifested in flesh? Sacred-Name theology is heresy to say the very least. If you named a garden fairy 'Yeshua' and relied on it for salvation, would you be saved? It simply doesn't make any sense!

As for the origin of the name, Jesus derives from the Greek IESOUS... it is not pagan. The apostles probably used that name when preaching to many gentiles in the Roman world (Greek was the lingua franca much like English is nowadays). I prefer to use the name 'Yeshua' because it is far more meaningful (plus I wouldn't like to have my name translated), but I cannot condemn anyone for calling our lord and savior Jesus.
I would have a hard time accepting a viewpoint that expresses disdain for the Christian use of the name Jesus... they are simply uninformed, it does not mean they have no relationship with Him. It would be prideful for anyone to say that because one calls Him Jesus, they are not truly "Saved".
In Messiah,
Ben TsionI completely agree with all that you have said and I believe you communicated this eloquently.
This topic has always interested me because I am one that goes over to foreign countries and tries to serve and set an example of the Love of Yeshua. I believe that even though many call His Name Jesus, that it does not invalidate their relationship with Him in any way. It would be prideful to believe otherwise and passing judgement upon a soul according to the Name they use, whether it be Yeshua or Jesus, is risky.

[simchat_torah]

No matter what name one uses, I doubt it affects salvation at all. This is one of the grevious errs that Sacred Namers enter into. That doesn't mean we should take his name lightly. As well, it does not negate the truth of history, truth, etc.

But I would never base anyone's salvation upon any particular name.

[Higher Truth]

HT:

The "common" language of the Jews from Jesus day was Aramaic. The language of commerce was Greek. Many scholars say that Paul addressed his fellow Jews outside the temple in the book of Acts 22 in Aramaic. They also believe that Jesus addressed Paul on the road to Damascus in Acts 26 in Aramaic. The church of the East still holds a copy of the NT scriptures that is dated from the 5th century that is written in script Aramaic [Estrangelo]. It is a different dialect than Jesus would have spoken, and He would have most probably written in block [Asshuri] Aramaic which is what was found on the lid of the James ossurary.[bone box] In this book which is commonly known as The Peshitta, He would be known as Eesho M'sheekha" meaning "Jesus the Messiah".

Eesho [Eastern Aramaic]

Yeshua [Hebrew]

Iesou[s] [Koine Greek]

It is quite easy to see how His Name went easily from the Aramaic/Hebrew to the Greek. Is their a real etymological proof of the transliteration scheme? Below is an explanation from a man who is well versed in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. This is one of the most scholarly explanations I have seen:


Yeshua (short form) or Yehoshua (long form)--Hebrew Joshua--comes across into Greek as Iesous. Greek has no consonant y, so it uses initial i (cf. Ioudaios for Yhudim), which comes out sounding like a y when it's pronounced together with a following vowel anyway. Greek also has no letter equivalent to Hebrew shin (/sh/), so the standard transliteration is sigma (/s/). The final a in the Hebrew forms is a glide-element that shows up in other Semitic languages but isn't really part of the word per se. The final vowel should be u, but because of the gutteral consonant 'ayin that comes at the end of the name, an a-vowel is added. So the final u-sound is paralleled by Greek ou (Greek upsilon would have a different sound--like French long-u or German u-umlaut). The s on the end is part of a standard conversion from other languages to Greek. Since Greek nouns almost always have case endings, including names, the s is added to give the name the right feel. We get the same rendering for Joshua in the Greek OT, so I don't see any reason that it would mean something different in the NT.

Trevor Peterson

CUA/Semitics

[simchat_torah]

Higher_Truth,

Thank you for sharing this information. I enjoyed it much actually. This topic is definatley not something I'm closed minded on.

The one thing that does concern me about the above article is that no real linguistic scholarship is shown from transliteration to transliteration. The author simply states:
It is quite easy to see how His Name went easily from the Aramaic/Hebrew to the Greek.

While I tend to agree, I'd like to actually see what the transliterations are/were and how they made the steps to change it from language to language.

This is what my 2 friends have done who study Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic for a living. I'd actually like to see them post here presenting both sides of the argument rather than simply their opinion... so we could evaluate it for ourselves.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat,

It was I who stated this:

"It is quite easy to see how His Name went easily from Aramaic/Hebrew to the Greek."

Sorry if there was any confusion.

This is his explanation:

Yeshua (short form) or Yehoshua (long form)--Hebrew Joshua--comes across into Greek as Iesous. Greek has no consonant y, so it uses initial i (cf. Ioudaios for Yhudim), which comes out sounding like a y when it's pronounced together with a following vowel anyway. Greek also has no letter equivalent to Hebrew shin (/sh/), so the standard transliteration is sigma (/s/). The final a in the Hebrew forms is a glide-element that shows up in other Semitic languages but isn't really part of the word per se. The final vowel should be u, but because of the gutteral consonant 'ayin that comes at the end of the name, an a-vowel is added. So the final u-sound is paralleled by Greek ou (Greek upsilon would have a different sound--like French long-u or German u-umlaut). The s on the end is part of a standard conversion from other languages to Greek. Since Greek nouns almost always have case endings, including names, the s is added to give the name the right feel. We get the same rendering for Joshua in the Greek OT, so I don't see any reason that it would mean something different in the NT.

Trevor Peterson

CUA/Semitics

[Higher Truth]

This article dispels the Jesus zeus argument:

http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/JesusZeus.htm

[Higher Truth]

BT:

(it means salvation... the name Jesus means nothing)

HT:

When there is etymological proof of a name, it retains the same meaning as the original from which it was derived. If your statement was correct, then Jeremiah, John, Jonah, Jacob, Isaiah, etc. would have no meaning as well.

[Aethelsige]

The question is in any greek documents did that name exist prior? I had always thought that the greek culture was pagan.

[Higher Truth]

The Septuagint was a Greek copy of the five books of Moses hundreds of years before the time of Jesus.[the age is disputed by some] Historians state that this book was translated from Hebrew into Greek by 70 Hebrew scribes. In this book, they rendered Yehoshua [Joshua] as Iesous. This is how Jesus [Iesous] is written in the Greek NT writings. I personally view the Septuagint as a historical document only.

[simchat_torah]

My friend at Princeton essentially states (and this is common among Aramaic scholars as well) the grammatical error in translating the Semetic letter "a" (Yashu"a" [ayin]) to the letter "s" in the Greek, which is unprecendented in any other Hebrew/Aramaic name that ends in "a" (ayin). It should be translated with a "u" or the Greek Iesou rather than Iesous. This brings in the possibility of Roman Hellenistic influence and influx, and is often argued that it was done in order to reflect Zeus' name.... and in Greek would depict "Healing Zeus".

Other such scholars, such as the one that Higher_Truth pointed out, state that the Greek form of the name is "Iasous" with the "os" ending is used to make it declinable.
Obviously the Catholic ch-rch has done a lot to preserve the pagan heritage of its doctrine, but this particular thing is hard to swallow only because it is the 'name' of the messiah.

However, I haven't fully bought the arguments used by either side. I can probably argue just as well from either standpoint, which only confuses me even more. Yes, I can see how the transliteration from Aramaic/Hebrew into the Greek Iesous is rather vague, and most likely incorrect. However, it is another step yet to declare that it was done with malicious intent.

I have yet to cross the thresh-hold of either camp.

I do, however, see the value in preserving the name of Y'shua. Out of purity of tongue I have chosen to abstain from using "j e s u s" at this point in time because honestly I don't know which side correct.

-Exodus 23:13 "Do not speak the names of other g-ds; do not let them be heard upon your lips."

Because of this clear instruction, and because I honestly do not know I have chosen to not use the Greek rendition and English transliteration of that name. I have chosen to use a name I do know is pure and right.

I would never cast judgement upon others for using whatever name they want, and as I stated previously, I would never base anyone's salvation upon whatever name they have seen fit to call the Messiah (within reason ;) ).

I'll try to bring some more notes in later.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

A quick note on the word "g o d":
Gad is a Syrian or Canaanite deity of good luck or fortune. In Hebrew, it is written GD, but with Massoretic vowel-pointing, it is "Gad." Other Scriptural references to a similar deity, also written GD, have a vowel-pointing giving us "Gawd" or "God." Gad, or Gawd is identified with Jupiter, the Sky-deity or the Sun-deity.

Similarly, the word "l o r d" also has pagan influence:
There was an Etruscan house deity whose name was Lar, which signified "Lord." It was also known as Larth, who later on became very popular in Rome and became known as Lares (plural) because as idol statues they were usually in pairs. The Greek equivalent of this name was Heros, which was another name for Zeus. A feminine form was known as Lara, who was the beloved of the god Mercury. Lord has since been derived from Lar and Larth. The letters "th" and "d" were virtually interchangeably used, in various nations. It was also common to find "o" and "a" interchangeably used in Old and Middle English. The word "Lord" can also be traced back to Loride, a surname for the Teutonic god Thor, and to Lordo, another deity

-Online Encyclopedia Britannica

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

This brings in the possibility of Roman Hellenistic influence and influx, and is often argued that it was done in order to reflect Zeus' name.... and in Greek would depict "Healing Zeus".

HT:
zeus is actually rendered ze. The us is added just like the s is on Iesou. The words are not the same at all. I have heard this argument before, but no one is able to prove it linguistically.

[simchat_torah]

zeus is actually rendered ze. The us is added just like the s is on Iesou.

I don't think I quite follow Higher_Truth.

Zues is a Greek name. How can additions in Greek be added to a Greek name?

not quite sure I follow...

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Higher Truth]

If I remember correctly it is rendered as ze, and the us is added for pronunciation purposes. I will check.

[Shekinah]

Higher Truth--

I personally view the Septuagint as a historical document only.

I'm interested in hearing why you view this copy of the Tanakh as "a historical document only."

Blessings.
Wanda

[simchat_torah]

In the English?

If it is added for enunciation in the Greek, then it would be part of the Greek word, would it not?

If it exists in the Greek, then the argument falls apart and it remains a possibility that Iesous is derived from Zeus. If it does not exist in Greek, then why is it added to Iesous in the English transliteration (which makes absolutely no sense at all)?

this doesn't make any sense HT.

????

a bit confused,
yafet.

[simchat_torah]

I guess I'll just wait for you to find the documentation...

maybe I'll give my friend a call. errr, nevermind, I think its like 11pm his time and I know he has a DSS class at 8am. bah, I'll just email him, see what he has to say.

shalom!
yafet.

[Philip]

The Greek version of The Wisdom of Jesus benSira was recovered from Qumran. BenSira is called Joshua in the Talmud. It is proof that the name Jesus is a transliteration (even if a poor one) of Joshua.

[Higher Truth]

Wanda:

I'm interested in hearing why you view this copy of the Tanakh as "a historical document only."

HT:

Because I prefer the Hebrew Masoretic text. I refer to it occasionally for alternate readings, and also to see what Greek words were chosen in place of the Hebrew.

[Higher Truth]

I cannot find my files on the grammar application of the greek. [I will keep looking] From memory, I believe that with Greek names, the spelling may change with application. [subject, object, etc] but I will have to check further. Here is an interesting article that I found:

http://www.letusreason.org/sacna4.htm

I do not know much about this site.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

If it exists in the Greek, then the argument falls apart and it remains a possibility that Iesous is derived from Zeus.

HT:

From the article that I posted a link for earlier in the thread:

This statement is a prime example of the pseudo scholarship that seems pervasive within the Sacred Name Movement.
The quotation has the name of the Greek goddess of health and healing as Iaso. In Greek, the nominative case of this word is spelled with the Greek letters Iota, Alpha, Sigma, Omega - Iasw. The Greek word Jesus in nominative case is spelled Iota, Eta, Sigma, Omicron, Upsilon, Sigma - IhsouV. Didn't anyone at Institute for Scripture Research notice the different second letters - Alpha and Eta - in the two words?* Sure they did. They just hoped you and I wouldn't notice. We did.

This brings us to the mention and use the Institute makes of the genitive forms of the two words. For Iaso, the genitive, as given by ISR, in Greek letters is IasouV. For Jesus, the genitive in Greek letters is Ihsou. The impression the Institute desires to leave with us and certainly with avid Sacred Name converts who read their bible and its notes is that the words are the same. However, the words are not at all the same. They are like the English words bell and ball. Consider the genitive forms of these words, bell's and ball's. That one letter makes them entirely different words.
Bell's and ball's may look alike and even sound a bit alike, but that is the end of their similarity. One is not derived from the other. The Greek words IasouV and Ihsou to some may look alike and they, too, sound a bit alike. There ends their similarity. One is in no case derived from the other. The people at Institute for Scripture Research know this.


http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/JesusZeus.htm

[Philip]

Perhaps this page will help:

http://www.amfi.org/mailbag/Zeus.htm

I hope AMFI is not offensive.

[The Thadman]

The word Jesus has a long etymological history. Off the top of my head:

It starts out in the Hebrew, "Yehoshua" which means "YHWH Saves."

In Aramaic, instances of the tetragrammation lose their Heys, so it is transformed into "Yeshua`" which can either mean "YHWH saves" or "He will save."

Later when it was translated into Greek, there had to be some phonetic re-arrangements, as the Greek alphabet is insufficient for reproducing all of the sounds of the Semitic.

Y e SH U a ~
I E S O U S

There is no "Y" sound in the Greek alphabet, so the Yood was transliterated an Iota, followed by the Rbotso (the "EY" vowel in Aramaic) translitterated directly to an Epsilon. There is no unvoiced post-velolar fricative in Greek ("SH") so Sigma was employed in place of the Sheen. We know that this transliteration was in use, because other words in the Greek NT where Aramaic is transcribed employ it (shvaqtonee to sabachthani for example). The combination Omicron-Upsilon replaced the Wau, as the only way to obtain an "OO" sound in Greek is with a dipthong. The `E is dropped altogether, as the Greek alphabet has nothing even CLOSE to something like sound that precedes vomiting, and it is theorized that in some dialects of Aramaic, `Es were silent like modern Hebrew's Aiyn. It is alternatively theorized that the Upsilon was used to translitterate the `E instead, but this would lead to a voweling of the word that is nowhere on record. Finally, to make the word masculine, as Jesus -was- a man, a terminal Sigma was added to signify the Masculine Singular.

Next, the name went through Latin, where it was translitterated, dropping the omicron, as the "OO" sound is reproducible by the Latin letter U, giving us IESUS.

In later church Latin, initial I's were changed to J's, a new letter on the block, today, less than 500 years old, giving us "JESUS" (pronounced "YAY-SOOS"). I believe that this convention was created in Germany, where in German J is pronounced much like the English Y, but have yet to confirm this for the language at that time. This, if I am correct, is where we get initial Js for all of our Biblical words beginning with Yoods, as most of our modern Bibles went through Germany with Martin Luther and his contemporaries. To this day, the vast majority of Aramaic and, I think, Hebrew study comes from Germany.

Finally this Germanized Latin was transmitted directly into English, where all rules for pronunciation change.

- First, J has a different pronunciation. Instead of a closed frontal vowel ("EE"), J is a voiced palatial approximant ("JUH").

- Due to it's position in the word, the E is pronounced long ("EE" as opposed to "EH" or "EY").

- The first S, in its position sandwiched between vowels, gets voiced (so the first S sound like "Z"); and

- The U, due to it's position in the word, is pronounced short ("UH" as opposed to "OO"), giving us our modern English spelling identical to the Germanized Latin, but the pronunciation now as:

"JESUS" (JEE-ZUS)

Jesus in the end is not pagan, but an English Greco-Latinized Semitic word with German influence.

WHAT a game to telephone to play through 6 languages over 2000 years!

Shlomo,
(Peace)

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

A quick note on the word "g o d":
Gad is a Syrian or Canaanite deity of good luck or fortune. In Hebrew, it is written GD, but with Massoretic vowel-pointing, it is "Gad." Other Scriptural references to a similar deity, also written GD, have a vowel-pointing giving us "Gawd" or "God." Gad, or Gawd is identified with Jupiter, the Sky-deity or the Sun-deity.

HT:

Gad is a common noun found in the Hebrew language. It is also the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Did God not forsee this naming happening? He spoke to the prophets of old, surely He could have worked something out if this name was an abomination in His eyes.


Simchat:

Similarly, the word "l o r d" also has pagan influence:
There was an Etruscan house deity whose name was Lar, which signified "Lord." It was also known as Larth, who later on became very popular in Rome and became known as Lares (plural) because as idol statues they were usually in pairs. The Greek equivalent of this name was Heros, which was another name for Zeus. A feminine form was known as Lara, who was the beloved of the god Mercury. Lord has since been derived from Lar and Larth. The letters "th" and "d" were virtually interchangeably used, in various nations. It was also common to find "o" and "a" interchangeably used in Old and Middle English. The word "Lord" can also be traced back to Loride, a surname for the Teutonic god Thor, and to Lordo, another deity.


HT:

I have heard this argument as well, but the bottom line is that 13 million Jews use the Name Adonai, which is translated as Lord. baal is translated as lord [small l] or master. Adonai is translated as Lord [capital L].With this in mind translate baal shem tov [the kabbalists name] into english.It appears that Jews were not afraid of these names.

[simchat_torah]

Gad is a common noun found in the Hebrew language. It is also the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Did God not forsee this naming happening? He spoke to the prophets of old, surely He could have worked something out if this name was an abomination in His eyes

It isn't about 'finding something similar', but instead pointing to why a particular word was historically chosen. " g o d " was chosen specifically because of its pagan heritage and connection.

I have heard this argument as well, but the bottom line is that 13 million Jews use the Name Adonai, which is translated as Lord. baal is translated as lord [small l] or master. Adonai is translated as Lord [capital L].With this in mind translate baal shem tov [the kabbalists name] into english.It appears that Jews were not afraid of these names.

Yes, I understand quite well what translation is currently used today. I am not so dumb.

However, I was examining what specifically are the origins of this translation. Why was a translation used instead of a transliteration? And why would a particular word be chosen as the translation?

There is a history behind everything.

We would be wise and discerning to discover this history.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[ShirChadash]

[/font]
I am not so dumb.

Anything but, IMO. I just had to say so.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

I am not so dumb.

HT:

I concur totally. We may get into heated discussions sometimes, but I would never question your intelligence or zeal. :-)

[simchat_torah]

Thadman,

While you're here, I was wondering if you could shed any light on the subject for us. In your opinion, how does one derive Iesous from ܝܶܫܽܘܥ (yeshoo' - Aramaic) ?

I have read in numerous places that the 's' was added to denote masculinity, but what I fail to see is where the semetic 'ayin' (http://www.activeips.com/sensei/yiddish/ayin3.gif) went to from the Hebraic language? If this was a true transliteration the Ayin would have remained intact, nu?

Anyway, that was just an afterthought.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[The Thadman]

Thadman,

While you're here, I was wondering if you could shed any light on the subject for us. In your opinion, how does one derive Iesous from ?????? (yeshoo' - Aramaic) ?

I have read in numerous places that the 's' was added to denote masculinity, but what I fail to see is where the semetic 'ayin' (http://www.activeips.com/sensei/yiddish/ayin3.gif) went to from the Hebraic language? If this was a true transliteration the Ayin would have remained intact, nu?

Anyway, that was just an afterthought.

Shalom,
Yafet.

I already have in my previous post here. `E/`Ayin in some dialects of Aramaic was silent like it is in most dialects of modern Hebrew, hence it was not transcribed. This is also why some manuscripts read Jesus words as "talitha koum" instead of "talitha koumi": In some dialects of Aramaic (like Modern Western Syriac), terminal Yoodhs are silent, where in others they are voiced (Modern Eastern Syriac, Chaldee, etc.).

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[simchat_torah]

oh sorry, I must have overlooked that.

:(

[The Thadman]

oh sorry, I must have overlooked that.

:(

Perfectly alright :-) I did kinda ramble on a bit, as the etymology of "Jesus" is really long and convoluted. When one works with any translation it gets difficult, but when you're working with translations of translations, it gets even more tricky.

Moryo `amokh,
(Lord YHWH be with you,)
-Steve-o