Statements made about other denominations

[feo]

I was reading somewhere that the Catholic church made a few statements; saying Orthodox and Protestants were not "equal" with them. While it may be natural for everyone to think that their own church is the "true" church, how do you guys feel about this?

Has any... high up Orthodox guy made any statements about Orthodoxy being the best? Do you guys take offense at the Catholic church's stance?

I posted a thread in OBOB: to see what they thought on it. And I'm curious to read what they have to say.

Uhm, as well as you guys! Take care! :wave:

[Moros]

The official stances of the Orthodox Church are not allowed to be posted here unfortunately, due to this site's fanatical e-crusade against possibly offending someone.

[countrymousenc]

Hi feo :)

The safest thing to do is to refer you to some websites where you can find the EOC's official attitude about other churches. The easiest websites for finding this info would likely be:

oca.org
antiochian.org
goarch.org

And thanks for asking.

[Oblio]

The Orthodox Church is the fullness of the faith once delivered to the Saints. She is the ship of Salvation for all mankind through Christ her head. All members of other faiths are welcome to board this ship, but they are not known to be part of it.

I do not take offense to the RCC stand, I disagree with it, and it does not affect me or the Church. I am not aware of any 'high up' statement made regarding the official standing of the Hererodox with the Church.

[vanshan]

Here's a very definitive list of articles that explain the Orthodox view of those outside it:

www.orthodoxinfo.com/searchresults.aspx?kw=heterodox

What I have always heard is that we do not know how God chooses to work beyond Orthodoxy. We do maintain that we have preserved the fulness of the faith through our canonization of the Bible, preservation of Holy Tradition, and Apostolic Succession.

Basil

[feo]

... I disagree with it, and it does not affect me or the Church.

Is there a specific part that you disagree with?

Is it mainly with the attitude or the wording?

I was saved in a protestant church, and I never remember such statements being said.. such as "Protestants have the fullest of the gospel". While I'm pretty sure many believe that, it was never... thrown around.

I guess if there was one part that I disagree with, it would be the "defective" remark. Don't get me wrong, I've seen horrible things happen in protestant churches... but I've seen equally wrong things happen in Catholic churches. So is the name calling justified?

Yet, on the other hand- I believe that "tolerance" can be a bad thing. I have friends who claim "Muslims, Jews, Christians- they all worship the same God" which... just makes me cringe. So is the way that I think because of that no different to the statements that were made by the Catholic church?

Or maybe I'm just thinking too hard about this? :scratch:

[Oblio]

Is there a specific part that you disagree with?


Well, I was thinking of this ...


saying Orthodox and Protestants were not "equal" with them.


But I examined it closer and I see that I do agree with it ;) Further, we are not 'equal' with Protestants in terms of ecclesiology.

At any rate, I disagree strongly with any branch theory or broken leg theory. If you are not part of the Orthodox Church, you are apart from her, and we pray for all to return to her. IIRC this is different from the RCC view that sees non-RCs as separated members of the Church somehow mystically joined in Baptism and like an errant son that is wandering astray. (This is all IMO from what I have read here at CF)

[Peter]

Dear leo,

I, too, was introduced to the person of Jesus Christ in a Protestant setting. I was raised by Protestant parents and attended a Protestant college and now work in a Protestant high school . There is much in my life that I owe to the Protestants.

As has already been said, we as Orthodox do not venture to say how God works outside of Orthodoxy. But one thing that did impress me aboout her, was the use of the phrase "the fullness of the faith." Like you, I don't recall ever hearing this about any of the many denominations I've been part of. In fact, when I left my Protestant church, the "fullness of the faith" line was used by the pastor as an accusation against Orthodoxy as bewing arogant. "We don't make that claim," he said. To this I silently replied, "And you wonder why I am leaving."

For me, the fullness of the faith statement rings with the same tone as when the listeners of Jesus proclaimed, "He speaks with authority, not like our religous leaders." (Matthew 7:28-29 and John 7:46) Because Jesus is the real, physical head of His body, the Church (Ephesians 1), His body then can speak in like manner. St. Paul's letter to the Ephesian people says that the Church is the "fullness of Him who fills all." (Ephesians 1:23 NASB) That is, His Church has the fullness of Him who fills.

I have a very good friend, who is a Protestant, who is a history professor in a Reformed college. Particularly troublesome to him, and to other Protestants, is the inability to prove the fullness of their particular denomination by historical means. He knows that to argue from a purely Biblical standpoint is a circular argument whose only offramp involves answering some pretty tought questions regarding who was granted the authority for assembling the books we have in Holy Scripture. In one of our conversations he made this comment, "I was hoping we would keep our discussions to the Bible. But once you bring up history, we Protestant don't have a leg to stand on."

Now, I say all this to point out the following:
1. We are saved by God's grace.
2. God established His Church and made Christ the Head of it.
3. We Orthodox believe that this real body could never go into error as that error would involve the Head going with it.
4. We also believe that if you are Orthodox, you WILL find salvation.
5. We believe that God's grace is bigger than our own understanding. Therefore, we cannot presume to say that God will not save someone who is not Orthodox.

My parents were never Orthodox. I would venture to say that they didn't even know Orthodoxy existed. Yet these two people loved their Creator God, through His Son, Jesus Christ, to their dying breath. I am fully convinced that God's grace rested on my parents and I do not despair at their souls being eternally lost.

We, as Orthodox, may some times forget that "God so loved the world," and not just the Orthodox. However, we do have our boundries, and we say without fear, "yes is yes and no is no" when it comes to being the fullness of Him who fills all things.

Peace.

Peter

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Dear leo,

I, too, was introduced to the person of Jesus Christ in a Protestant setting. I was raised by Protestant parents and attended a Protestant college and now work in a Protestant high school . There is much in my life that I owe to the Protestants.

As has already been said, we as Orthodox do not venture to say how God works outside of Orthodoxy. But one thing that did impress me aboout her, was the use of the phrase "the fullness of the faith." Like you, I don't recall ever hearing this about any of the many denominations I've been part of. In fact, when I left my Protestant church, the "fullness of the faith" line was used by the pastor as an accusation against Orthodoxy as bewing arogant. "We don't make that claim," he said. To this I silently replied, "And you wonder why I am leaving."

For me, the fullness of the faith statement rings with the same tone as when the listeners of Jesus proclaimed, "He speaks with authority, not like our religous leaders." (Matthew 7:28-29 and John 7:46) Because Jesus is the real, physical head of His body, the Church (Ephesians 1), His body then can speak in like manner. St. Paul's letter to the Ephesian people says that the Church is the "fullness of Him who fills all." (Ephesians 1:23 NASB) That is, His Church has the fullness of Him who fills.

I have a very good friend, who is a Protestant, who is a history professor in a Reformed college. Particularly troublesome to him, and to other Protestants, is the inability to prove the fullness of their particular denomination by historical means. He knows that to argue from a purely Biblical standpoint is a circular argument whose only offramp involves answering some pretty tought questions regarding who was granted the authority for assembling the books we have in Holy Scripture. In one of our conversations he made this comment, "I was hoping we would keep our discussions to the Bible. But once you bring up history, we Protestant don't have a leg to stand on."

Now, I say all this to point out the following:
1. We are saved by God's grace.
2. God established His Church and made Christ the Head of it.
3. We Orthodox believe that this real body could never go into error as that error would involve the Head going with it.
4. We also believe that if you are Orthodox, you WILL find salvation.
5. We believe that God's grace is bigger than our own understanding. Therefore, we cannot presume to say that God will not save someone who is not Orthodox.

My parents were never Orthodox. I would venture to say that they didn't even know Orthodoxy existed. Yet these two people loved their Creator God, through His Son, Jesus Christ, to their dying breath. I am fully convinced that God's grace rested on my parents and I do not despair at their souls being eternally lost.

We, as Orthodox, may some times forget that "God so loved the world," and not just the Orthodox. However, we do have our boundries, and we say without fear, "yes is yes and no is no" when it comes to being the fullness of Him who fills all things.

Peace.

Peter
EXCELLENT!:thumbsup: Thanks for sharing that, Peter.:)

[Niko]

No i dont think we are equal to them. They are diffrent then us. We have stayed the same for 2000 years.

Do they have a right to disagree with the original church. Their heritage!

Its just hubris and pride. Not even worth thinking about.

But to make yourself seem better than everyone else and call yourself a Christian? That deserves pity.

Pray for them. :pray:

[Carrye]

I was reading somewhere that the Catholic church made a few statements; saying Orthodox and Protestants were not "equal" with them
I hope you're not trying to start a bashing thread Feo, because that's what it sounds like to me.

:wave: Orthodox brothers and sisters.

[Rick of Wessex]

:wave: clskinner! And welcome.

In XC,
Rick

[feo]

I hope you're not trying to start a bashing thread Feo, because that's what it sounds like to me.

How so?

[Happy Orthodox]

I was saved in a protestant church, and I never remember such statements being said.. such as "Protestants have the fullest of the gospel". While I'm pretty sure many believe that, it was never... thrown around.
Sure, I've heard a lot of Protestants saying: "We have the fullness of the Gospel! Come and see! Read the Bible and you will see that we are the ones that got it right!"

But what it means -- the fulness of the Gospel? Aren't those people disagree on many things even within their own denominations or even single parishes? So, there isn't a fulness of the Gospel. One needs the Apostolic tradition (not man-made tradition like Catholics have, but the original that runs from the Apostles), the Apostolic explanation and understanding of the Gospels. I like to explain the importance of tradition like this.

One anthropologist (a little dum one) went to Africa to research one tribe. She shared an idea that all people have same values and they understand the world in the same manner. So, to prove that, she decided to read Hamlet to those tribe people, and boy was she (and I) surptised how they interpreted it! Their story was really off! There were witches, Hamlet was evil, his mother was evil, and all that stuff. They didn't buy the tragedy of Hamlet's father being killed by his brother. And they surely didn't by Hamlet's argument that the brother married the dead king's wife in a month (because it's a brother's responcibility to marry his dead sibling's wife in a short time in this tribe). So, see how background affects our understanding!

How to baptise? How to worship? What many passages and phrases mean? Why did Christ say that He does not have a shelter to a guy who wanted to follow Him? Why those things happened the way they happened? What happened afterwards? All those questions were answered by the Apostles as they preached orally in the churches, and that knowledge was passed on, and is called the Apostolic tradition now.

So, that's what real fulness means -- you gotta have the "instructions" along with the book.



I guess if there was one part that I disagree with, it would be the "defective" remark.
There are a lot of things in which Orthodox disagrees with the Catholics. Catholics want to rule the world, what to say? But there is a head of the Church already -- Christ.


Don't get me wrong, I've seen horrible things happen in protestant churches... but I've seen equally wrong things happen in Catholic churches. So is the name calling justified?
We are not perfect people, as well as muslims and hindus and all the rest. And certainly bad things happen as the devil has his hands on them. And the level of people's sinfulness is not a criteria for the "true religion". One guy, when he was converting to Orthodoxy, was told by his former Protestant pastor: "Don't expect it to be full of perfect people", but that's not the point, he (and we all) was expecting it to be the perfect church, governed by perfect God -- the Spottless Bride of Christ.


Yet, on the other hand- I believe that "tolerance" can be a bad thing.
Tolerance -- no. Compassion.



So is the way that I think because of that no different to the statements that were made by the Catholic church?
I do not completely understand, what do you mean by that?


Or maybe I'm just thinking too hard about this? :scratch:
Thinking is a good thing, when you think in the right direction ;)

[Akathist]

I recommend that instead of seeking a church that has perfect people, you seek the Head of the Church. The church is a "hospital" for the "spiritually ill" to come to for healing.

From what I have been taught, Orthodoxy believes that this is the original Church, established by Jesus and the origional apostles (and the 70, including Paul). It is felt that Orthodoxy has preserved the fullness of the Tradition and teaching of the early church and therefore has more truth.

However, it is also taught that salvation is decided by God, not by mankind and we are not to judge others.

I am not yet Orthodox. So, I guess I might be considered still protestant because that is how I grew up. I also used to consider myself "saved" in the protestant church. Now I believe differently. I understand now that God's perspective is different than man's perspective and it is not for me or any other human to fully understand salvation or to fully grasp the totality of the "Fullness of Truth".

"Any God that can be fully known by a human is not a God, but an idol." (I think Bishop Ware said this.)

BTW, In my opinion, ignore all the threats that you are causing trouble by asking this question. There are too many people here that stifle expression and it makes it hard to say anything at all in order to please them. I say, focus on pleasing God. That is hard enough for me that I need all my attention on that alone.