Good benefits of adding text of Yeshua's life and teachings to Talmud.

[Wills]

The slant of the Christian -based details of Yeshua's life as seen by Messianics and Jews

has led to a state of unfamiliarity of Yeshua amidst his a number of his own Jews, which is

obviously upsetting since He first taught his message to the Jews and lived with

them as a Jew. Queries typically come from many Jewish sects and some lack of agreement

exists across beliefs all due to simple variance of basic teachings/records.

The way things are going, blaming the pagan issues of Christians for lack

of Jewish knowledge (or disagreements) about what Yeshua came to primarily teach,

is a cop out because Yeshua will not blame pagans for lack of Jewish knowledge of Torah.

and also because Jewish sages have kept track of even earlier events

of Jewish people who lived earlier and around the time of Yeshua's life .. WHY not He?

Reason for adding Him-- He came to fulfil the Torah!. The only one to do so.

His life and death fulfilled the CORE Law of the Talmud and He belongs right in Talmud.

This has nothing to fear from the texts of Paul or Peter-- this is the direct Jewish understanding of

a Jewish Teacher who had an important message apart from fulfilling a mighty Law.

The other Biblical texts have non Jews reading about Jewish teachings of Jewish prophets such as Elijah,
Samuel, Malachi etc thus Jews being unclear about Jewish Yeshua seems unexcusable.

Hence, there is no excuse for not keeping a JEWISH account of Yeshua's teachings for the

benefit of Jews. I mean why should a gentile have more familiarity with what

Yeshua taught (albeit with disputes) as opposed to his own Jewish kin.


Time to set things smooth gain wisdom in G-d since judgement is direct and based on individual status

effort must not be spared in adding Yeshua's life to the Talmud.

There can be no excuse at all, it in no way whatsoever promotes any idolatry

since Jews will have their own account, free from whatever disagreements they would have

with

This would be a really fulfilling addition, setting all hearts at ease and freely

alllowing all Jews to individually read and make up their own minds... Baruch Ha-Shem!

Share this with your friends and Rabbis and I am sure this would set people at ease.

In this day of hi tech ability, His proper Jewish details would not be tough to add to the Talmud

at all.

Yeshua never promoted idolatry as the later Christian slants may imply hence the Talmud will be even enhanced with the details of His teachings.

Remember Yeshua was not a product of christianity and died before christianity's establishment.

Lets hear views from all on this highly insightful issue.

Shalom Ubracha

[Henaynei]

The only one to do so.
[snip]
His life and death fulfilled the CORE Law of the Talmud and He belongs right in Talmud.
[snip]
Time to set things smooth gain wisdom in G-d since judgement is direct and based on individual status effort must not be spared in adding Yeshua's life to the Talmud.
[snip]
There can be no excuse at all, it in no way whatsoever promotes any idolatry
since Jews will have their own account, free from whatever disagreements they would have.
[snip]
In this day of hi tech ability, His proper Jewish details would not be tough to add to the Talmud at all.
Dear Zealous Friend,

The Talmud has been "closed" for several centuries. There can be no additions nor distractions from it's pages.

Perhaps your vigor of intent can come up with another concept that is possible?

[simchat_torah]

?????????????????

[Wills]

Dear Zealous Friend,

The Talmud has been "closed" for several centuries. There can be no additions nor distractions from it's pages.

Perhaps your vigor of intent can come up with another concept that is possible?

My good friend,

Thanks for your response. I know this was kind of surprising but lets discuss and see why.

Yeshua's writing is being done RETROACTIVELY since he lived in the 1st century. Hence it was not
"closed" then.

The closing you refer to was not by G-d but by man. I believe you agree on that.

What was the source of the command to close it? If so, G-d would consider Talmud "closed" right after

G-d gave the final words well before King David was even enthroned.

Again, you agree with me. That would nullify all later changes especially after 500BC and in this millenium.

Can Yeshua not write Talmud especially since so many Rabbis opened and added to the Talmud after it was

finalised by G-d himself to the Jews? Obeying the Law in 200BC required additions by Sages over time well

after it was given to Moses.

From that perspective, locking up and closing the Talmud means locking up Yeshua from all Jewish
believers which surely is not what any Jew desires.

Would you close yourself to Ha-Shem by restricting yourself to the closure of Talmud by man?

In sending Yeshua, did G-d close Yeshua to the Torah? G-d is not divided against himself.

You can see how it is justified.

[Wills]

?????????????????

Hello friend,

I await your response. I understand why you were taken aback but I know you will speak

in due course.

[ShirChadash]

:confused:

[Henaynei]

My good friend,
Thanks for your response. I know this was kind of surprising but lets discuss and see why. Yeshua's writing is being done RETROACTIVELY since he lived in the 1st century. Hence it was not "closed" then.The closing you refer to was not by G-d but by man. I believe you agree on that. I am not sure I agree with you at all.What was the source of the command to close it? If so, G-d would consider Talmud "closed" right after G-d gave the final words well before King David was even enthroned.
Again, you agree with me. That would nullify all later changes especially after 500BC and in this millenium.Again, I'd have to say that I don't think I do agree with you. Can Yeshua not write Talmud especially since so many Rabbis opened and added to the Talmud after it was finalised by G-d himself to the Jews? Please, can you provide book/chapter/verse to support this assertion that G-d finalized the Talmud before King David?Obeying the Law in 200BC required additions by Sages over time well after it was given to Moses.Ah, something to which I do agree.
From that perspective, locking up and closing the Talmud means locking up Yeshua from all Jewish believers which surely is not what any Jew desires. Yeshua is NOT "locked up" from all Jewish believers: this statement is both inaccurate and self contridictory:sigh: Would you close yourself to Ha-Shem by restricting yourself to the closure of Talmud by man? Tell me again how *I* am closing myself to HaShem because the Talmud is closed? Are you aware that this is a forum for Jewish Believers (as well as non-Jewish believers) who honor Torah?? In sending Yeshua, did G-d close Yeshua to the Torah? G-d is not divided against himself.I do not believe "G-d sent Yeshua" - Rather I believe that G-d's spirit was in Yeshua, the same G-d, the same spirit that gave the Torah. Therefore my reading of you statement sounds some what like "Did G-d close Himself off from His very nature and Law?" The answer is of course no. But that has nothing to do with the Talmud. The Mishna, the heart of the Talmud, was still "open" at the time of Yeshua and indeed Yeshua is mentioned in the Talmud. You can see how it is justified.I am sorry, but no, I certainly can see nothing like that at all.
The Talmud is closed and I must tell you that I believe that that is and was the will of HaShem. Jewish people are hearing the truth of Yeshua by the testimony of Jewish people who love and serve HaShem and also love and keep His Law. There is quite enough in both T'NaKah and Talmud for the seeking heart to support the truth of Messiah, and neither needs additions to fortify that.

[Wills]

The Talmud is closed and I must tell you that I believe that that is and was the will of HaShem. Jewish people are hearing the truth of Yeshua by the testimony of Jewish people who love and serve HaShem and also love and keep His Law. .

Henaynei,

Good post. The main direction of our discussion stems from your first response which

assumed a date (not given) for the closure of Talmud so let us clearly identify and understand your
statement on when the Talmud was closed.

Please state when it was closed since mine was in response to your assertion in Post #2.

We know from what you said in your second response that it was open in the time

of Yeshua.

Please explain with Bible verse and give when in your opinion, the Talmud was closed and

state which RABBI made this statement.

That would help buttress your explanation because without that, one cannot

agree on whether it is REALLY closed or not. That would then clearly support your point.

[Wills]

Yeshua is NOT "locked up" from all Jewish believers: this statement is both inaccurate and self contridictory:sigh: Tell me again how *I* am closing myself to HaShem because the Talmud is closed? .

Shalom,

Do not misunderstand me. What I meant was that YESHUA being totally ABSENT from Talmud

regarding His teachings, is not available to the millions of Jews who derive input from the

AUTHORITATIVE text, the Talmud. One cannot gain familiarity with an absent teaching.

You cannot find what you cannot read or is absent from a text and invisible to you.

The Talmud is the main source for a huge number of Jews hence how can a Jew who does not know of
Yeshua from his daily readings of Talmud, even know who he is, how much more what to learn from Him.

You are in agreement with me on this, my friend.

[Henaynei]

Shalom,

Do not misunderstand me. What I meant was that YESHUA being totally ABSENT from Talmud

regarding His teachings, is not available to the millions of Jews who derive input from the

AUTHORITATIVE text, the Talmud. One cannot gain familiarity with an absent teaching.

You cannot find what you cannot read or is absent from a text and invisible to you.

The Talmud is the main source for a huge number of Jews hence how can a Jew who does not know of
Yeshua from his daily readings of Talmud, even know who he is, how much more what to learn from Him.

You are in agreement with me on this, my friend.
No, I am not.

It is the attitude and deportment of followers of Yeshua, more than any written or unwritten testimony that hinders the vision of the Jewish people.

[Wills]

No, I am not.

It is the attitude and deportment of followers of Yeshua, more than any written or unwritten testimony that hinders the vision of the Jewish people.


I guess you raise a good point.

Their behaviour, however, is not due to Yeshua as you agree, and is not really a major stumbling block,
especially today. In the past, yes, there were very bad times.

How do we look at Yeshua today without being adversely distracted by the deviations of those

who hold onto His name (some followers). We should not fall in that trap at all.

The most important point to note is that Yeshua will not excuse anyone who professes

not to know of him because of the attitudes of "christians".

We must carefully realise that everyone has to come to terms directly

and not allow those followers to "push" you away from Yeshua.


From your perspective, how do you think that Yeshua can be properly known to Israel since

each day that progresses without increased knowledge bodes no good.

It all boils down to his words being available in the most read text... no other way.

Would we allow anger, irritability, all works of Satan, to rob us of so precious

a blessing?

[Wills]

Am I missing something here? :scratch:

Shalom,

We are realising the difficulty in knowing about Yeshua without having access to any of his teachings

in text that forms the core source of spiritual guidance for Jews.

It is virtually imposible for find Him if you are isolated from him.......

[simchat_torah]

Wills,

I have carefully read everything you have written. I have much I'd like to address, but one overwhelming thought invades my mind....

Do you even know what the Talmud is????

Everything you have stated seems that you are, and please don't be offended by this statement, ignorant of what the Talmud is.

No offense, its just something I can't shake.

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Wills]

Wills,

I have carefully read everything you have written. I have much I'd like to address, but one overwhelming thought invades my mind....

Do you even know what the Talmud is????

Everything you have stated seems that you are, and please don't be offended by this statement, ignorant of what the Talmud is.

No offense, its just something I can't shake.

Shalom,
Yafet.

Shalom,

I encapsulated some of my points in summary but that does not detract from the main points I was

driving at. Commentaries on the Mishnah and Midrash cannot be considered in a mutually exclusive
manner with respect to Yeshua's texts.

Of course, there have been many commentaries and comments on comments (ahem) with the usual "athletic" debates over the years, without a unified voice as it was before.

What help did Rav Ga'on receive regarding insight at the Pumbedita yeshiva being away from home?

Was there far less focus on producing commentaries on the Books of the Prophets in the Tanakh as opposed

to the extensive studies of the Mishna etc.?

How much did Ezra contribute regarding organising the texts etc in the period after the Babylonian captivity ....Did He have the discussions/comments memorised during captivity.?

I believe you have a lot to add and as I said, take your time and clarify your position.

W.

ps Have you ever evaluated the current spiritual condition of Jews as a whole? What do you think?

[Wills]

Wills,

I have carefully read everything you have written. I have much I'd like to address, but one overwhelming thought invades my mind....

Do you even know what the Talmud is????


Shalom,
Yafet.

On a humorous note, which one were you asking about ?

Seriously though, would you say there are enough commentaries on the Brit Chadasha?

2.**
Were the early Rabbis who started work on the Talmud in the 500- 200BC era

referred to by name in post captivity era Books of Tanakh like Nehemiah,

Ezra, Zechariah, Malachi etc and were they named by G-d in the same way as He had close knowledge of
the likes of Moshe, Jeremiah ,Zechariah, Elijah, Samuel, Isaiah etc?

Did G-d specify the Talmudic Rabbis as He did the men known above in the Tanakh?

Shalom
W.

[Henaynei]

Shalom,
We are realising the difficulty in knowing about Yeshua without having access to any of his teachings in text that forms the core source of spiritual guidance for Jews.
It is virtually imposible for [you] find Him if you are isolated from him.......Wills,
1) Literally millions of Jews HAVE found Yeshua without ever reading the Torah, much less the Talmud.
2) The majority of Judaism has never even SEEN a Talmud.
3) No one can change the Talmud - the Rabbis will not, and no Rabbi would ever consider any change done by you or me or any one alive today as anything but DESECRATION most foul of their holy book. This would not draw them closer nor "open their eyes", but drive them to further animosity!
4) The entire world is "isolated from Him" and all have access to resources about Him, including the New Testament, which is for sale everywhere in Israel.

I guess you raise a good point.
Their behaviour, however, is not due to Yeshua as you agree, and is not really a major stumbling block, especially today. In the past, yes, there were very bad times. Yes, it is a stumbling block today to the Jew just as it is to the gentile. How do we look at Yeshua today without being adversely distracted by the deviations of those who hold onto His name (some followers). We should not fall in that trap at all. WE don't usually have that problem, but then WE are the "choir." It is not WE that we are speaking about.
The most important point to note is that Yeshua will not excuse anyone who professes not to know of him because of the attitudes of "christians". While that is equally true because of the Jew and the gentile, neither does it excuse those whose behavior and practice have set a stumbling block in the path of the weak.
We must carefully realise that everyone has to come to terms directly and not allow those followers to "push" you away from Yeshua. Why do you keep making reference in such a manner as to call my realtionship with HaShem into question? As I mentioned, you are "preaching to the choir" as relates to needing a salvation relationship with G-d through Yeshua. From your perspective, how do you think that Yeshua can be properly known to Israel since each day that progresses without increased knowledge bodes no good. It all boils down to his words being available in the most read text... no other way. I would say that Pray4Isrel's way, going to Israel and living and working with them and letting them, one on one, to get to know you and watch you live is the best way, hands down. Much better than insisting on violating their holy books and inciting their abhorance to new levels. Indeed, there are MANY "other ways!"
Also, I would be willing to wager that the Talmud is not the most read spiritual text by the Jewish people. It is ONLY the most read text of the religious observant community. I would also be willing to wager that the majority of Jews in this world, the overwhelming majority of which are totally non-religious and totally secular, particularly from the 50's generation forward, have read more from and are more familiar with the New Testemant than they are with the Talmud. Those in Israel who have ever touched, much less read or studied Talmud are such an infinitesimal portion of the population as to be a shock to you. You can generally see almost all several thousand of them (out of a nation of some 12 million) at the Western wall every Shabbat evening.
Would we allow anger, irritability, all works of Satan, to rob us of so precious a blessing?Again, "rob us?"
Anyway, I would suggest that if you nave not read this that it would serve you well in your zeal to reach G-d's Chosen People. Our Hands Are Stained With Blood by Dr.Michael L. Brown. (http://www.chosen-people.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CPM1&Product_Code=3078&Category_Code=C9)

Shalom,
Henaynei

[Wills]

Wills,

I have carefully read everything you have written. I have much I'd like to address, but one overwhelming thought invades my mind....


Shalom,
Yafet.


But I think for the obvious outlined reasons above you would be missing the point of the Talmud... to interpret Halacha and the Mitzvot.


We see a view (using Oral Torah) on parts of Chumash
Taking a look at the relevant sections of Mishna regarding the Mitvot.....
Yeshua is seen in a number of Mitzvot for example, those relating to Kodashim
Your views on the relevant Kodashim (masekhtot) for which there exist Gemara
involving understanding how the Jews made atonement via Yeshua ..

You could expand on that..

[simchat_torah]

ok, let's start with the title:
Good benefits of adding text of Yeshua's life and teachings to Talmud.
Our first problem starts here. Many of Y'shua's teachings and Halachic interpretations are found in the Talmud. Granted, he himself is not mentioned directly, but he borrowed many Rabbinic teachings, parables, and halachic decisions and those can clearly be found in Talmudic sources.

Second of all, the Talmud was composed by non-messianic Rabbinate Courts. It is obvious they would not include the 'teachings' of a Messiah they consider spurious.

Finally, as Henaynei pointed out, the Talmud is a closed cannon.

The way things are going, blaming the pagan issues of Christians for lack of Jewish knowledge (or disagreements) about what Yeshua came to primarily teach, is a cop out because Yeshua will not blame pagans for lack of Jewish knowledge of Torah.
I don't think that anyone blames Christianity's pagan attributes for the lack of Torah observance. They are two seperate issues. Christianity adopted paganism and Christianity has chosen to reject Torah. These are seperate issues that are not affected by the other.

and also because Jewish sages have kept track of even earlier events of Jewish people who lived earlier and around the time of Yeshua's life .. WHY not He?He is recorded in numerous other Rabbinic sources, why specifically must the Talmud refer to him?

The Talmud is first and foremost a theological work, not a historical work. You want history? Turn to Josephus.

The other Biblical texts have non Jews reading about Jewish teachings of Jewish prophets such as Elijah, Samuel, Malachi etc thus Jews being unclear about Jewish Yeshua seems unexcusable.Yes, and it is through the Talmud, Midrashim, etc that we can point to Y'shua's Messiahship. Through these theological works, we can prove that he fulfilled the prophecies concerning Moshiach ben Yosef. Without these theological works, one can hardly point to his fulfillment of messianic expectancies.

Hence, there is no excuse for not keeping a JEWISH account of Yeshua's teachings for the benefit of Jews.
You're right. But guess where they are recorded? The Brit Chadasha, aka the Ketuvim Netzarim, aka... the New Testament.... a set of Jewish books written by Jewish authors who had Jewish Rabbinical training and written to Jews!

I mean why should a gentile have more familiarity with what Yeshua taught (albeit with disputes) as opposed to his own Jewish kin.
The Ketuvim Netzarim is open to all. That's the great thing about it. You don't have to be a gentile to walk into a store to purchase a Brit Chadasha! Why then are Jews not familiar with this man called Y'shua? Because they choose to.
Forcefully placing him in the Talmud will only add a chapter to the Talmud that will be ignored.

But hey, if you want to go before the Beit Din in Jerusalem and demand that Y'shua be added to the Talmud, be my guest. But I think for the obvious outlined reasons above you would be missing the point of the Talmud... to interpret Halacha and the Mitzvot.

anywho...

Time to set things smooth gain wisdom in G-d since judgement is direct and based on individual status effort must not be spared in adding Yeshua's life to the Talmud. There can be no excuse at all, it in no way whatsoever promotes any idolatry since Jews will have their own account, free from whatever disagreements they would have
So, let me get this straight... you would prefer that the Messianics have a seperate talmud than the non-messianic sects of Judaism?

This would be a really fulfilling addition, setting all hearts at ease and freely alllowing all Jews to individually read and make up their own minds... Baruch Ha-Shem!
Well, I agree. However, I think they can just as easily pick up a Brit Chadasha if they are so interested. There are even those that exist with a Jewish slant such as the Complete Jewish Bible by Stern, or The Orthodox Brit Chadasha, etc.

Remember Yeshua was not a product of christianity and died before christianity's establishment.
Omein.

Yeshua's writing is being done RETROACTIVELY since he lived in the 1st century. Hence it was not "closed" then.
Yes, but it is now.
The 'biblical' cannon was not closed in the 2cnd century, yet the book of I Enoch was not included in it.... why?
(just an example)

The closing you refer to was not by G-d but by man. I believe you agree on that.
No, actually... I do not agree.

What was the source of the command to close it?
What was the source of the command to include the life of Y'shua in the Talmud. In fact, what is the source of the command to have a talmud at all?!!?!!!

If so, G-d would consider Talmud "closed" right after G-d gave the final words well before King David was even enthroned.
Again, I am led to believe that you are unfamiliar with the Talmud. It is a collection of Halachic decisions made by men who primarily lived in the second century (and there-abouts). It can not find its origins anywhere near the centuries that King David lived.

not even close.

Again, you agree with me.
again no. ;)

That would nullify all later changes especially after 500BC and in this millenium.
ummm... the Talmud wasn't even complied until 200 ce - 500 ce (depending on which Talmud, there are two).

Can Yeshua not write Talmud especially since so many Rabbis opened and added to the Talmud after it was finalised by G-d himself to the Jews?
Wha???
The Talmud was compiled at once by a single council. Granted, it took a few years to compile its works, but it was never redacted.

????


Obeying the Law in 200BC required additions by Sages over time well after it was given to Moses.
The Talmud didn't exist in 200 bce.
The Talmud didn't exist in 500 bce.
The Talmud didn't exist in the time of King David.

Do you see why I tend to think you aren't familiar with what the talmud is?

From that perspective, locking up and closing the Talmud means locking up Yeshua from all Jewish believers which surely is not what any Jew desires.
1) Why did you come to this conclusion.
and
2) What about the Ketuvim Netzarim???

I can point to numerous Jewish historical figures that are not to be found in the Talmud, that doesn't mean they are 'locked up from the Jews' simply because they are not within the Talmud.

As well, there is an extensive ammount of historial writing about Y'shua.

Would you close yourself to Ha-Shem by restricting yourself to the closure of Talmud by man?
Man wrote it. Man created it. Man started it. Man finished it.
I fail to see where HaShem commanded any part of the Talmud's creation, from its beginning to its end. Why are you so concerned then with the finishing of the Talmud if HaShem never commanded it to be written down in the first place???

In sending Yeshua, did G-d close Yeshua to the Torah? G-d is not divided against himself.
wha huh?
Y'shua came before the Talmud. The Talmud was compiled several centuries after his life. What does the Torah's relationship have to do with the comissioning of the Talmud? How is G-d divided on this issue?

These two sentances seem to be randomly written. I have no clue what you're trying to say here.

You can see how it is justified.
again, no. Not at all. ????

Please explain with Bible verse and give when in your opinion, the Talmud was closed
The biblical authors had no idea the Talmud was going to be written down several centuries after their death. The talmud never was mentioned in the Bible. The Talmud came along long after the Biblical texts were recorded.

Again, I tend to think that you don't know what the Talmud is my friend.

Do not misunderstand me. What I meant was that YESHUA being totally ABSENT from Talmud regarding His teachings, is not available to the millions of Jews who derive input from the AUTHORITATIVE text, the Talmud.
The Talmud is used by Halachic courts to determine how to apply and write new Halacha. It is also studied to gain understanding of Midrashic interpretation of scripture.
It is not seen as 'authoritative' in the daily lifestyle of a Jew. In fact, very few Jews read the Talmud. Only the Jews who study for Rabbinical ordination use the Talmud as reference material.

Once again, your next statement hints to me that you are unfamiliar with what the Talmud is:The Talmud is the main source for a huge number of Jews hence how can a Jew who does not know of Yeshua from his daily readings of Talmud
A Jew does not have the Talmud as his 'daily readings'.
There are a limited number of sources that are typical of Jewish required reading. I might be missing one or two, but here are the only ones I can think of:
1) The Siddur. This is used during Shabbat Services.
2) The Parsha. This is a section of the Torah. The torah is typically broken down into a 1 year cycle where each week a section is read, these sections are called Parashot.
3) Haggadah. An excellent example of a Haggadah is the Pesach Haggadah.
4) The Haftorah. This is the Tanach references included with each week's Parsha.
5) Pirkei Avot. The Teachings of the Fathers... this is required reading at certain times of the year.
6) Daily Prayers. These aren't exactly readings, but heck, I wanted to be completely all inclusive ;)

You are in agreement with me on this, my friend.
Again... hehe... no.

in text that forms the core source of spiritual guidance for Jews.
Again, the Talmud doesn't form spiritual guidance, but rather forms halacha.

Commentaries on the Mishnah and Midrash cannot be considered in a mutually exclusive
manner with respect to Yeshua's texts
They aren't.

How much did Ezra contribute regarding organising the texts etc in the period after the Babylonian captivity ....Did He have the discussions/comments memorised during captivity.?

The text, comments, and quotes from the Talmud are primarily from teachers of the first few centuries ce. Not from Ezra's time or before... this again, points me to believe that you don't know wha tthe Talmud is.

On a humorous note, which one were you asking about ?
Either. They both reference Rabbinical sourcs from the centuries following Y'shua.

Seriously though, would you say there are enough commentaries on the Brit Chadasha?
I might say there are too many... lol. Seriously , have you read John Lightfoot's commentary on the Brit Chadasha using the Mishanh, Talmud and other Rabbinic Sources? If not, I reccomend picking one up from CBD. I think the set is about 100 years old or so. You'll find it highly enlightening.

Were the early Rabbis who started work on the Talmud in the 500- 200BC era
No. 200-500 CE era.

Did G-d specify the Talmudic Rabbis as He did the men known above in the Tanakh?
G-d never ordained the compilation of the Talmud.

Well, I hope these comments will help you form a better understanding of the Talmud. Here is a brief history of the Talmud for your edification:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_39_-_Talmud.asp

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Wills]

The Talmud didn't exist in 500 bce.
The Talmud didn't exist in the time of King David.
Shalom,
Yafet.

simchat_torah,

Thanks for your good post. The very first point that we would expand on is the date since it led to some

slight misunderstanding and repetition ....... we are actually in agreement somewhat on that.

This was a very important part of my discussion and I mentioned the date 500-200BC for a specific
reason. I agree that the Talmud came into being after 200CE onwards.

1. The 10 tribe Kingdom fell first after 800BC and later on the Kingdom of Judah

was also conquered by the Babylonians. There was no means of obeying the

Law after all tribes were captured etc since the Jews were in captivity and disarray for a number of decades after both kingdoms fell.


I wanted to know how Ezra was able to read and understand the Written Law of Moses after their return

from exile since the Talmud had not been written yet. ( I know what the Talmud ..is I NEED to know how
Ezra was able to understand the written Law after His return from captivity)

Again I would like to emphasise on my query on how Ezra, Nehemiah, Zerubabel etc understood

what they read from the Book of the Law of Moses during their return in the 400BC era.

I agree that the Talmud was compiled much later from the time after 200 CE

How did Ezra and other Jews gain understanding to interpret the Written laws from the Written Torah
that He read CENTURIES before 200CE from the Book of Law as described in (Nehemiah 8:1-10)

Once you clarify this, the repetitive date issue would be clear and sorted out.

The other points would then be explained.

Shalom

[Wills]

The closing of the Talmud you refer to was not by G-d but by man. I believe you agree on that.






No, actually... I do not agree.




Would you close yourself to Ha-Shem by restricting yourself to the closure of Talmud by man?



Man wrote it. Man created it. Man started it. Man finished it.
I fail to see where HaShem commanded any part of the Talmud's creation, from its beginning to its end. Why are you so concerned then with the finishing of the Talmud if HaShem never commanded it to be written down in the first place???



I am concerned because it is IMPLIED that the closure of the Talmud was by G-d, not man.
You therefore agree that Man started it, wrote and closed it and was Not commanded by God hence the Talmud was closed by man. I am not forcing anything, just being consistent with the fact that the Talmud was STARTED and closed by Man and NOT closed by God... (same as man also closed Christian texts)
My initial statement may have introduced some ambiguity. We therefore agree that HaShem did NOT close the Talmud. Again, I am not forcing anything.. just making a consistent observation.

Only G-d alone knows his intent..... but that is obvious anyway.

[Wills]

Millions of Jews are vastly influenced by the REPUTATION of Rabbinical scholars and not Brit Chadasha. The World has the statistics for all to see... Messianic Jews are a small minority.
Non religious Jews are indirectly influenced by the Norm....Midrash scripture interpretation... as that is more common in the Jewish environment dominated Rabbinical Judaism.

More influence also comes from the Holy land which requires a more Rabbinical perspective ...which must proceed on REBUILDING the Temple and obeying FULL TORAH LAWS.

The Temple is provided by Ha-Shem... is he not a Provider.? Move ahead in faith and the path clears.


Millions of Jews already passed away in earlier centuries who were in PURELY Rabbinical environments.
The point here is that Talmud text (from Rabbinical Judaism) has been presented as the only RELIABLE
source yet made by man after 200CE thus Yeshua is blocked from Jews. The dichotomy is clear.

Who can say that Talmudics as Moses Maimonides , Rebbe Judah the Prince , R. Akiva, Rav Samuel etc

do not influence many Jews (even from past) till now regarding Midrashic interpretation of

HOW TO IDENTIFY A MESSIAH? You identify a Messiah by what Talmudic influenced Midrash teaches

since that is what is dominant in Judaism and Jewish life, thus preventing you from independently analysing

text for oneself. New Testaments cannot open themselves automatically... humans cannot open

them if naturally and psychologically dominated by influence of Talmud (Midrash)


key point is HOW DOES JUDAISM INFLUENCE THE IDENTIFICATION of a Messiah??

What heavily dominates the Messianic identification process in an environment very dominated by

teachings of Midrashic interpretation which cannot properly recognise Yeshua?

[sojeru]

Talmudic reading everyday.
Hi Simchat, well
actually, it is commanded by the Rabbinate courts that a Jew should study or at least read a little of talmud each day. And so it is included in the siddur if one should read the commentaries in the siddurim and there is also ( i think, but not sure) in the birkat ha Mazon of you were to read it through.

The same i hear is that a certain amount of blessings should be given to HaShem throughout the day so that is why also many blessings are written for almost everything to cause a persons mind to focus and also- give this certian amoutn of blessings

oh well whatever

shalom u'bracha

[Henaynei]

Talmudic reading everyday.
Hi Simchat, well
actually, it is commanded by the Rabbinate courts that a Jew should study or at least read a little of talmud each day. And so it is included in the siddur if one should read the commentaries in the siddurim and there is also ( i think, but not sure) in the birkat ha Mazon of you were to read it through.

The same i hear is that a certain amount of blessings should be given to HaShem throughout the day so that is why also many blessings are written for almost everything to cause a persons mind to focus and also- give this certian amoutn of blessings

oh well whatever

shalom u'bracha
True, in the shakrit there is both a short section of Torah and Talmud that is read.

It is usually only observant and religious that do the shakrit and this small reading in no way exemplifies that to which Wills was alluding. The fact remains that a very miniscule porttion of the Jewish world pop;ulation do more than read that same paragraph of Talmud each day :)

[ShirChadash]

Henaynei, if I may, what is the shakrit?

(I'm just unfamiliar with the term/work/?)

Thank you :kiss:


~Z~

[Henaynei]

Henaynei, if I may, what is the shakrit?

(I'm just unfamiliar with the term/work/?)

Thank you :kiss:


~Z~
Zem, I am so glad you asked!!!!

There are three times for prayer during the day. They reflect the times and activities of the three sacrifices daily in the Temple.

They are Shakrit - morning prayer
Minkha - afternoon prayer
Ma'ariv - evening prayer

The order of service and prayers for these can be found in any rabbinic siddur (prayer book), and much more besides. Very few Messianic (I know of none) siddurim (plural) have the complete services and prayers. If you are interested I would suggest the ArtScroll Siddur - either the transliterated or the Hebrew/English (I suggest this for folks who don't know Hebrew and need to know the meaning of the prayers and/or read the service in English). At this level either the Ashkenazi or Sefardic versions will surfice, though if you choose to get the transliterated I would strongly suggest the Sefardic as that is the pronunciation form that has majority in the spoken Hebrew in Israel. Siddurim usually run about $20-30 at the website Artscroll.com.

A great many of these prayers have been part of Jewish observance and practice since before Yeshua's time. These prayers and services are done at the same time every day all over the world in every land where there are Jews. Everyone as one spiritual community going before HaShem and saying the same prayers that our ancestors have said for millenia. These siddurim are also full of lots of other footnoted information that the student will find both intruging and enlightening.

I have, with varying regularity, made a practice of doing the bedtime Shema and the shortened version of the Shakrit (as I am neither male nor in a minyam there are some prayers and sections it is not permissible for me to do). However, I feel sure there are men here much more versed in the use and tradition of the siddur and services than I. I would that one or more of them will chime in!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_4_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[simchat_torah]

ArtScroll Siddur - either the transliterated or the Hebrew/English
I actually saw one in the catalogue last week that had Hebrew, English AND transliteration!
very cool...

[Henaynei]

I actually saw one in the catalogue last week that had Hebrew, English AND transliteration!
very cool...Kewl - many have been waiting for that one!!!

[simchat_torah]

Yeah, I think I'm going to pick it up. If I remember correctly, they had that one in Ashkanaz and Sephardic, as well as full hard bound and a small travel soft cover one too (basically its just a cheaper version for those who can't afford the hard covered one).