Ebionites: The Real Jewish Followers of Jesus?

[Ebion]

Hello,

My user name is Ebion and I am a former Unitarian Christian in the process of converting to Ebionite Judaism!

My reason for joining the Christians Forums is that I still like to talk with open-minded Christians and Messianic Jews in the hopes that I will learn from them as much as they will learn from me.

For those of you not familiar with Ebionitism, allow me to re-post the following introduction:
The Ancient Ebionite Movement

Most people realize that Jesus (we will hereafter refer to him as Yahshua) was a Jew, and his activities, as best they can be reconstructed, were totally within the Jewish first century milieu. Not only that, but his students and followers were overwhelmingly Jewish or people attracted to Judaism and contemplating conversion. I use the term Judaism here loosely just as I would Christianity for at the time under discussion neither existed as they do in their present theologically developed forms. It is more accurate to talk of Yahwism, that is, the religion based on the Hebrew Torah and prophets centered on the revelatory experience of the single god, Yahweh. Yet, within Yahwism there were more than one interpretation and expression of the religion.

Most are familiar with the Pharisees (P'rushim), the Sadduccees (Tsaduqqim), Zealots (Qinna'im), and, now, the Essenes (`Ossim) who may be responsible for the documents discovered beginning in 1948 in the area of the Dead Sea. All different, yet all held the Torah and prophets at their core.

The relationship of the itinerant teacher from the Galilee and these movements is complex. Some will claim he was a Pharisee, while others an Essene (who were most likely a separatist branch of the Sadduccees), and others still see him as a revolutionary. Later, under a pagan influence, he would be worshipped as a god in Christianity.

Much of the Christian writings cannot be trusted at face value, and often not at all for information concerning Yahshua and his teachings. In fact, because of Christianity it is hard to be sure there was a Yahshua if it weren't for detailed critical reconstruction. But Ebionites consider the following as being more reliable than the theological mythology presented by Christianity:


* Yahshua was not divine.

* He was a religious Jew.

* His teachings were fully within the framework of Yahwism, yet may have conflicted with other sectarian views.

* He was not a Pharisee, or a "Qumran Essene" yet was aware of their issues and in agreement on some issues.

* Yahshua was perhaps able to achieve miraculous feats, though not necessarily those attributed to him as recorded.

* Yahshua had a political-social agenda.

* Yahshua was "liberal" in his halaka on Torah.

* He was a reformer, trying to recapture an earlier spirit and purity of Yahwism.

* He was not the Messiah but undertook a messianic mission. He called people to accept the Reign of God, i.e., prepare for the Messianic Age by living as if they were already in it. In this way Yahshua was trying to bring the Messiah and Messianic Age by righteousness and loving-kindness.

* He was unsure of his ability to bring this about, and his feelings concerning messiahship were tied to that doubt.

* After his death his immediate Jewish followers' further dealt with the messiahship issue, and came to terms with it correctly, developing their movement on the relationship of action, faith, and community to messiahship and the Messianic Age considering Yahshua to be "a" messiah---i.e., someone furthering the goal of a Messianic Age.

* Non-Jews focused on a deified person, objectifying and mythologizing in the manner of the Mystery religions of the time, placing all in the realm of allegory to compensate for what obviously did not happen---the Messianic Age.

* Yahshua took a prophetic stance imitative of earlier prophets condemning casulatry, legalism, and divided loyalty; yet, was devoted to Yahwism, and elements of new testament writings denigrating Yahwists and Yahwism can be dismissed as later Christian polemics.

* As part of Yahshua's social agenda, he appealed to those who had little stake in existing socio-economic structure, e.g., those disenfranchised by the rich, semi-Jewish Herodian regime, and religious elite.

And this brings us to those disenfranchised ( "poor" ), or 'evyonim who responded to Yahshua's ideas. Yahshua was their champion and eventually their martyr. They were politically powerless and probably adverse to such machinations and therefore, were not able to impress their movement or glamorize it, unlike the sect of Jewish Mystery Religion initiated by Paul of Tarsus who did have and use political connections and influence. They remained simple Jewish peasants, and were eventually drowned by false sects who commandeered the man Yahshua to gain both wealth and political influence, or integrated him into new age, gnostic systems of belief. Christianity itself is little more than a first century "new age" religion which integrated Yahshua into the position usually occupied by some version of a savior god, like Mithras or Orpheus.

As the Christian Mystery cult grew powerful, and Judaea and Jews were repeatedly crushed under the Roman boot, the Jewish followers of Yahshua either conformed in part ( for example, the "Nazarenes" ) to the now "Universal Church" of "Christ" accepting the myths of virgin birth, divinity and incarnation, and Christ-hood of "Jesus," or they were criminalized as heretics (the 'Evyonim), demonized along with other Jews, and pushed into areas outside the power of the Church. These are represented in history as the sect encountered by the Muslim historian Abd al-Jabbar almost 500 years later than most Christian historians admit for the survival of the Ebionites, as al-Jabbar wrote at around 1000 CE.

Some "Jewish-Christians" considered to be Ebionites veered into gnostic teachings, but are better identified as the Elchasites. At some point Christian scholars categorize all non-orthodox (i.e., orthodox in accepting the tenets the Nazarenes did) Jews holding some doctrine about Yahshua as Ebionite, though this is an incorrect generalization, as there were many views and sects related to some belief in Yahshua, yet they were not all Ebionite.Any thoughts?

[Linda8]

Hello,

My user name is Ebion and I am a former Unitarian Christian in the process of converting to Ebionite Judaism!

My reason for joining the Christians Forums is that I still like to talk with open-minded Christians and Messianic Jews in the hopes that I will learn from them as much as they will learn from me.

For those of you not familiar with Ebionitism, allow me to re-post the following introduction:

Later, under a pagan influence, he would be worshipped as a god in
Christianity.

Much of the Christian writings cannot be trusted at face value, and often not at all for information concerning
Yahshua and his teachings. In fact, because of Christianity it is hard to be sure there was a Yahshua if it
weren't for detailed critical reconstruction.

Any thoughts?


Hi there,

The first point is to define whether people worship Christ as a "god". There are no believers in Yeshua

who worship him in that form since the only Biblical texts on Christ indicate Him speaking about the

Father as the ultimate direction of worship but ONLY through Yeshua.

No matter how you cut it , no believer can worship Yeshua because the NT does not command that.

However, you CANNOT worship God without acknowledging Yeshua's salvation hence that confuses many

people into thinking that two separate worships are offered. It has never been done on earth.

Blame the false "Christian", not the New Testament. Pagan Christian theory are cannot be used to describe
or categorise Yeshua. The so called New Testament does not even command worship of Yeshua.


On the other hand, any worship intended for the Lord without acknowledging Yeshua's blood is paganism since blood is the key for cleanliness without which God would introduce death punishment.


We first need to find out what you mean by "Christian" writings since books such as Isaiah and Micah

are not strictly Pauline products. They existed well before Yeshua was born and speak of Yeshua as deity.

Isaiah 9:6 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be
upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The
mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

**** This is no mere Rabbi as we clearly see here.

Micah 5: 2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of
Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

No Rabbi can ever be described as one whose goings were from old and everlasting, not even Moses.

Hence any step in speaking about Yeshua must start from the Prophets associated with the Torah era

who speak of His deity WELL BEFORE the likes of Paul who may have made statements that were not

deemed agreeable. The big CHALLENGE for you therefore, is to verify the authenticity of the Old
Testament.

Is Isaiah false? Is Blood offering as in Torah pagan? No, Therefore without Yeshua's blood , worship is pagan.

Yeshua is defined as not a mere human being well before the so called Christian texts you speak of.

Pagan Christians worship Mary and focus on praying to Saints KNOWING FULL WELL that Yeshua does not get tired with his name and does not require any one to INTERCEDE as pagans use Saints to intercede in prayer.

[Henaynei]

Any thoughts?
Shalom Ebion,

Well, those are some interesting assertions you present. May I refer you to our Messianic Jewish FAQ (http://www.christianforums.com/t63396) for reference??

For those unfamiliar with what Ebionites are/believe may I refer you to Ebionite FAQ from their home web site (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/ebionites.htm). Although, Ebion has done a fair job of presenting their stand above.

Shalom
b'Shem Yeshua http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/989.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[Ebion]

Well, those are some interesting assertions you present. May I refer you to our Messianic Jewish FAQ (http://www.christianforums.com/t63396) for reference??

For those unfamiliar with what Ebionites are/believe may I refer you to Ebionite FAQ from their home web site (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/ebionites.htm). Although, Ebion has done a fair job of presenting their stand above.Although I wasn't the one who wrote that introduction to the Ebionites I posted, I thank you for the compliments. :blush:

[Reformed Baptist]

Ebion, can you direct me to a site of this modern day recreation of the Ebionites?

[Henaynei]

Ebion, can you direct me to a site of this modern day recreation of the Ebionites?See the link in my post:)

or click here (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/ebionites.htm)

[simchat_torah]

I have always viewed Ebionite Judaism as a sect (or form) of Messianic Judaism.

[Henaynei]

I have always viewed Ebionite Judaism as a sect (or form) of Messianic Judaism.
I wonder.

They clearly state they reject the divinity of Yeshua or that He was/is the Messiah.

[BenTsion]

I have always viewed Ebionite Judaism as a sect (or form) of Messianic Judaism.


No offense, but I find it hard to consider them anything close to Messianic Judaism, at least according to Ebion's post. Everything that makes Messianic Judaism "Messianic" (ie. Yeshua being Mashiach/G-d, His sacrificial atonement, inspiration of Brit Hadasha, whom His apostles were, etc.) is denied in the Ebionite movement.

Thinking that Yeshua was simply a "great rabbi" is not a new idea and makes them in essence no different from non-messianic Judaism, which often also acknowledges that.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[simchat_torah]

It is to my knowledge that they accept him as Mashiach ben Yosef.

am I incorrect?

[simchat_torah]

Allow me to clarify..... I'm not sure whether Ebionites are fully within the Messianic flagship, however, they clearly do have a messianic leaning. I have seen Ebionite teachers fully proclaim Y'shua was Moshiach ben Yosef, and I've seen others that simply state he fully embodied the spirit of Moshiach ben Yosef but wasn't the Messiah.

I suppose either the movement needs to clarify itself, or individuals need to draw the line on the messiahship of Y'shua themselves.

Curious Ebion, where do you stand?

shalom,
yafet.

[Henaynei]

It is to my knowledge that they accept him as Mashiach ben Yosef.

am I incorrect?
* Yahshua was not divine.

* He was a religious Jew.

* His teachings were fully within the framework of Yahwism, yet may have conflicted with other sectarian views.

* He was not a Pharisee, or a "Qumran Essene" yet was aware of their issues and in agreement on some issues.

* Yahshua was perhaps able to achieve miraculous feats, though not necessarily those attributed to him as recorded.

* Yahshua had a political-social agenda.

* Yahshua was "liberal" in his halaka on Torah.

* He was a reformer, trying to recapture an earlier spirit and purity of Yahwism.

* He was not the Messiah but undertook a messianic mission. He called people to accept the Reign of God, i.e., prepare for the Messianic Age by living as if they were already in it. In this way Yahshua was trying to bring the Messiah and Messianic Age by righteousness and loving-kindness.

* He was unsure of his ability to bring this about, and his feelings concerning messiahship were tied to that doubt.

* After his death his immediate Jewish followers' further dealt with the messiahship issue, and came to terms with it correctly, developing their movement on the relationship of action, faith, and community to messiahship and the Messianic Age considering Yahshua to be "a" messiah---i.e., someone furthering the goal of a Messianic Age.
I have higlighted the sections/phrases that specifically deal with you question, S_T. That does not mean that I agree with all the unhighlighted areas, however.:)

I saw nothing on their espoused "official" site that even claimed that Yeshua was Moshiakh Ben Yosef.

Also they are Yahwists and use the misnomer Yahshuah.

These are all points made by their own doctrinal statements.

[simchat_torah]

Sorry, I guess I was drawing from personal experience rather than research. I'm going to have to look into this a bit deeper tommorow... i'mma off to bed now.

peace, shalom, and all that good stuff.
-yafet.

[Hix]

While we are on this point, would it be considered to not be allowed within the messianic movement if you do not accept Yeshua is divine, or that he shouldnt be worshipped? Il admit that I fall highly into that category.

Im just wondering if this is the same sect as you can find at http://www.torahofmessiah.com which call Yeshua "Yahshua" and believe that modern day MJ's follow the antichrist :S

So Ebion if im reading right your type believes in the "messianic age" like some reformed jews do these days? The messianic age being the time when the Lion would lie down with the Lamb, and all would worship HaShem...?
Just a question but is Ebionite Judaism an accepted form of Judaism? And I kinda got the feeling you dont accept the Talmud as being authoritive? Thanks in advance for answering these questions!

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Ebion]

Ebion, can you direct me to a site of this modern day recreation of the Ebionites?Yes. Here are the two official links to the modern Ebionite Jewish Community: http://members.tripod.com/ebionite/indexold2.htm (http://members.tripod.com/ebionite/indexold2.htm) or http://ebionite.org/index.htm (http://ebionite.org/index.htm)

I have always viewed Ebionite Judaism as a sect (or form) of Messianic Judaism.Since Ebionites do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, Ebionite Judaism cannot be and does not want to be considered a sect of Messianic Judaism.

It is to my knowledge that they accept him as Mashiach ben Yosef. am I incorrect?You are incorrect. Although he is acknowledged as the son of Joseph, Ebionites do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

No offense, but I find it hard to consider them anything close to Messianic Judaism, at least according to Ebion's post. Everything that makes Messianic Judaism "Messianic" (ie. Yeshua being Mashiach/G-d, His sacrificial atonement, inspiration of Brit Hadasha, whom His apostles were, etc.) is denied in the Ebionite movement.No offense taken since you are absolutely correct. So far…

Thinking that Yeshua was simply a "great rabbi" is not a new idea and makes them in essence no different from non-messianic Judaism, which often also acknowledges that.Wrong. Ebionite Judaism is unique in that it acknowledges that Jesus could have become the messianic priest-king of Israel but was chosen to be the last and greatest of the prophets.

Allow me to clarify..... I'm not sure whether Ebionites are fully within the Messianic flagship, however, they clearly do have a messianic leaning. I have seen Ebionite teachers fully proclaim Y'shua was Moshiach ben Yosef, and I've seen others that simply state he fully embodied the spirit of Moshiach ben Yosef but wasn't the Messiah. I suppose either the movement needs to clarify itself, or individuals need to draw the line on the messiahship of Y'shua themselves. Curious Ebion, where do you stand?All ancient Ebionites viewed Jesus as the Messiah until his death and failure to return. Their prayers led them to an understanding that Jesus was not the Messiah but rather the last and greatest of the prophets. The overwhelming majority of modern Ebionites including me believe this as well.
Also they are Yahwists and use the misnomer Yahshuah.Why is "Yahshuah" a misnomer?
Sorry, I guess I was drawing from personal experience rather than research. I'm going to have to look into this a bit deeper tommorow...Here are a few links that might help:

Nazarenes and Ebionites - An Introduction (http://www.ancientpaths.org/APJTnazandeb.html)
Evidence of the Ebionites (http://members.tripod.com/~ebionite/mac15.htm)
Im just wondering if this is the same sect as you can find at http://www.torahofmessiah.com (http://www.torahofmessiah.com/) which call Yeshua "Yahshua" and believe that modern day MJ's follow the antichrist No. We are a different sect and we do not believe that Messianic Jews follow the Anti-Christ. However… a few Ebionites believe that Paul was the Anti-Christ but this isn’t a widely-accepted belief in the Ebionite Community. Thank you for the link!
So Ebion if im reading right your type believes in the "messianic age" like some reformed jews do these days? The messianic age being the time when the Lion would lie down with the Lamb, and all would worship HaShem...? No. The Messianic Age is interpreted differently.
Just a question but is Ebionite Judaism an accepted form of Judaism? And I kinda got the feeling you dont accept the Talmud as being authoritive? Thanks in advance for answering these questions!Ebionitism is a form of Karaite Judaism. Does that indirectly answer your question?

[BenTsion]

While we are on this point, would it be considered to not be allowed within the messianic movement if you do not accept Yeshua is divine, or that he shouldnt be worshipped? Il admit that I fall highly into that category.


With all due respect, I certainly hope there is congregation within the Messianic movement holding such beliefs. One thing is to argue about HOW Mashiach was divine, G-d's nature, etc. (since those things are not really clear in scriptures and were they essentials, G-d would've made them clearer) - to say Mashiach was not divine is completely different. Without getting into matters of faith itself, the greatest practical problem I see with that is that anyone who claims he wasn't divine would not be able to accept the Brit Hadasha the same way we Messianics do. They would have to adopt one of the following stands, none of which is compatible with what I know of the Messianic movement:

1 - Not accept the entire Brit Hadasha as inspired. That is very dangerous, for who will judge what is inspired and what is not. Messianics hold that the Brit Hadasha is inspired. OR

2 - Claim that some sort of conspiracy took place and the Brit Hadasha as we know it today is not trustworthy because it has been seriously tampered with. Its not much different from the position above. OR

3 - Overlook or give excuses to the hundreds of scriptural claims within the Brit Hadasha that Mashiach is divine. That would be quite cultic.

Besides, I guess most Messianics would probably agree that Mashiach had to be divine in order to justify us. There is a difference between ATONEMENT and JUSTIFICATION. One could argue that a non-divine sinless being could atone for our sins. For his sacrificial death would represent that our pardon has been bought. But Justification is much more than that. Scripture is clear that we are JUSTIFIED through and in Mashiach. Justified is different from forgiven. Justified means being declared just, as if we hadn't sinned at all. Since only HaShem can do that, for He is our Judge, then Mashiach has to be HaShem. Otherwise, we would've been forgiven but not justified.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Ebion]

While we are on this point, would it be considered to not be allowed within the messianic movement if you do not accept Yeshua is divine, or that he shouldnt be worshipped? Il admit that I fall highly into that category.This is only my opinion but I think, although traditional Messianic Jews may see you as an heretic, your position would be as valid as that of Unitarian Christians who justifiably reject the doctrine of the Trinity but are Christians nonetheless even if Trinitarian Christians do not view them as such.

[simchat_torah]

All ancient Ebionites viewed Jesus as the Messiah until his death and failure to return. Their prayers led them to an understanding that Jesus was not the Messiah but rather the last and greatest of the prophets. The overwhelming majority of modern Ebionites including me believe this as well.

This is exactly what I was talking about. I have met Ebionites who still hold to the messinaic doctrine of Y'shua. The Ebionite movement is slightly divided on this issue, though the majority only see that the fullness of the spirit of the messiah was upon Y'shua and that he did not fulfill the propheices, and thusly did not become the messiah. However, there are Ebionites (as you have admitted) that are messianic.

It seems that this tradition is very ancient and much can be gained from studying their texts.

shalom,
yafet.

[simchat_torah]

I myself am not attracted to the Ebionite movement for they:

1) Lack the established Beit Din and are more or less a self proclaimed new 'revived' movement.
2) Are somewhat confused on their stance of who the messiah is/was when it comes to Y'shua.


However, there is an ancient Ebionite sect in North Africa that claims to have no broken links dating back to Y'shua and they are actually messianic. They accept he full messiahship of Y'shua. There was a special on 60 minutes a few years back where they interviewed this ebionite sect and on their tombstones they had the Mogan David as well as the cross. Judaism rejected them as a valid form of Judaism because of their messianic leanings.

As well, these North African Ebionites claimed to have direct descendence of Levite bloodlines. 60 minutes did extensive Gene sampling and found it to be a true claim.

Interesting...
Yafet.

[Hix]

Ebion - thanks for clearing that up, Ive seen a sect of karaite B'nei Noach online and was sure somewere there would be a similar sect of karaite Judaism in existence. Just a few more questions while I think about it, are you and many other of the ebionite community Jewish by halacha? And does your faith clash with Rabinic Judaism in any ways that may require they switch to Ebionitism?

BenTsion - Todah, I dont want to drag this topic off its original purpose, but thank you for informing me of this. I do accept Yeshua as HaMoshiach, but worship only HaShem becuase he says in Dueteronomy that anyone, even if their prophesies are true, if they change the way the Jews worship HaShem alone or change him, then he is false. I had figured that since I accepted Yeshua as the messiah that I would be included within Messianic Judaism, I see now that I would not be accepted.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Ebion]

This is exactly what I was talking about. I have met Ebionites who still hold to the messinaic doctrine of Y'shua. The Ebionite movement is slightly divided on this issue, though the majority only see that the fullness of the spirit of the messiah was upon Y'shua and that he did not fulfill the propheices, and thusly did not become the messiah. However, there are Ebionites (as you have admitted) that are messianic.Indeed.
It seems that this tradition is very ancient and much can be gained from studying their texts.:clap:

[Henaynei]

I do accept Yeshua as HaMoshiach, but worship only HaShem becuase he says in Dueteronomy that anyone, even if their prophesies are true, if they change the way the Jews worship HaShem alone or change him, then he is false. I had figured that since I accepted Yeshua as the messiah that I would be included within Messianic Judaism, I see now that I would not be accepted.

That depends on what you mean by worship. It is true that even Yeshua instructed us not to pray to Him but only to HaShem.

It does seem to me that in the Revelation of Yochanan that Yeshua is seen receiving worship, but I could be wrong.

[Ebion]

I myself am not attracted to the Ebionite movement for they: 1) Lack the established Beit Din and are more or less a self proclaimed new 'revived' movement.Sad but true. However, some Ebionite missionaries are working to change that...

2) Are somewhat confused on their stance of who the messiah is/was when it comes to Y'shua.The modern Ebionite Community is quite clear on this issue. However, if one wants to talk about confusion, we simply have to look at the thousands of sects within Christianity that have conflicting stances on every doctrine imaginable! :eek:

[BenTsion]

BenTsion - Todah, I dont want to drag this topic off its original purpose, but thank you for informing me of this. I do accept Yeshua as HaMoshiach, but worship only HaShem becuase he says in Dueteronomy that anyone, even if their prophesies are true, if they change the way the Jews worship HaShem alone or change him, then he is false. I had figured that since I accepted Yeshua as the messiah that I would be included within Messianic Judaism, I see now that I would not be accepted.


This is a matter of perspective. If you believe Yeshua is HaShem incarnated, then how is it that He has changed the way Jews worship Him? Yeshua did not come to change worship, He came to justify us. We can either accept that justification and enter His kingdom or reject it. Worship remains the same: to be given to HaShem and HaShem alone! And, mind you, a great deal of messianics do not accept the concept of the Trinity, but do hold that Yeshua is HaShem.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Ebion]

Ebion - thanks for clearing that up, Ive seen a sect of karaite B'nei Noach online and was sure somewere there would be a similar sect of karaite Judaism in existence. Just a few more questions while I think about it, are you and many other of the ebionite community Jewish by halacha?Yes.
And does your faith clash with Rabinic Judaism in any ways that may require they switch to Ebionitism?The official position of the Ebionite Jewish Community is that Ebionitism, Karaism, and Rabbinism are all legitimate subsets of Judaism. It does not proselityze to Jews but asks them to reconsider Jesus as a man, Jew, teacher, and prophet liberated from Christian mythology.

My personal opinion is that Rabbinic Jews should switch because Rabbinism may never recognize Jesus as a prophet and Ebionitism relies solely on the Hebrew Bible as the basis for religious law and the teachings of Jesus; rejects the authority of the Jewish oral law; and does not rely on the Mishna, Talmud, or any of the rabbinic works that stem from the Talmud.

[simchat_torah]

The modern Ebionite Community is quite clear on this issue. However, if one wants to talk about confusion, we simply have to look at the thousands of sects within Christianity that have conflicting stances on every doctrine imaginable!

One of the many reasons I attend a synagogue and not a messianic congregation my friend. ;)
MJ'ism seems to be very confused lately as well. Some support Torah observance, some deny Torah is even applicable. Some celebrate christmas and easter, while others reject all pagan festivals and celebrate the Leviticus feasts instead.

MJ'ism is a mixed bag.

Doesn't mean there isn't truth in it. I see Ebionites in a similar fashion. I'm obviously not as familiar with the Ebionite movement as you are, but I see similar things going on in that sect as well. There seems to be a lot of confusion about fundamental doctrines. As well, just what halacha do the Ebionites follow?

Anyway, welcome to our forums ;)

Shalom,
Yafet.

[Hix]

Thank you again Ebion,

lol sorry I just have so many questions: Are there any snyagogues/shuls/temples for Ebionite Judaism? I ask becuase I was wondering what sort of role Yeshua would play in every day ebionism, since you do not stray from the Tanakh. I may be totally wrong but I feel you think of him as someone who came to set an example to lead the way to the messianic age? I have heard of this before that the "no man shall come to the father but by me" thing can mean "no man shall come to the father but by IMMITATING me" in other words, doing good deeds, praying, observing mitzvot etc. I have actually heard of rabbinic jews who have used that to dismiss Yeshua, was wondering if that is the case with Ebionitism.

I have always thought without the Talmud it must be very diffucult to interperate the law. Saducees who were kariates interperated Tallits to be nailed to the walls of the house for example o_O or so Ive heard.

If Ebionite Judaism accepts Yeshua as a great teacher (which he was as well as moshiach) then too do you have respect for Rashi, Maimonidees and many other of the great sages? I am glad to see at least you are indeed Jewish through halacha, that link I showed you earlier were they said MJs followed the antichrist was actually almost entirely gentile. Speaking of which, what is your view on salvation for the gentile? Do you accept the idea of B'nei Noach or do you think that gentiles need to convert to Judaism?

Todah and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Ebion]

One of the many reasons I attend a synagogue and not a messianic congregation my friend. ;) MJ'ism seems to be very confused lately as well. Some support Torah observance, some deny Torah is even applicable. Some celebrate christmas and easter, while others reject all pagan festivals and celebrate the Leviticus feasts instead. MJ'ism is a mixed bag.uh, Judaism is also a mixed bag. It is divided into four denominations: Orthodox Judaism (which includes Hasidic Judaism, Ultra-Orthodox Judaism and Modern Orthodox Judaism) Conservative Judaism (Outside of the USA it is known as Masorti Judaism) Reform Judaism (Outside of the USA also known as Progressive Judaism and in the U.K. as Liberal Judaism) and Reconstructionist Judaism. These denominations contain a good number of sects as well with some different beliefs and practices.

Doesn't mean there isn't truth in it. I see Ebionites in a similar fashion. I'm obviously not as familiar with the Ebionite movement as you are, but I see similar things going on in that sect as well. There seems to be a lot of confusion about fundamental doctrines.I disagree. However, even if that was true, it is typical of all religions including Judaism.

As well, just what halacha do the Ebionites follow?The "easy yoke" halacha of Jesus.

Anyway, welcome to our forums ;)Thank you.

[sojeru]

While we are on this point, would it be considered to not be allowed within the messianic movement if you do not accept Yeshua is divine, or that he shouldnt be worshipped?

Personally, I see that to have the philosophy that the Messiah is "mighty G-D" (notice not "ALMIGHTY G-D") is not needed.
Also, the term "G-D/EL" is used for judges. So the Messiah is "Mighty Judge" who will govern- however, the only title that gets me is "everlasting father".
But hey, not everyone is required to believe that the Messiah is divine.
But, thats for those that are unlearned- for even our sages knew that the Metatron was a divine being however not to be worshipped as HaShem is worshipped. He is not to be worshipped as G-D however as a divine king.

Im just wondering if this is the same sect as you can find at http://www.torahofmessiah.com (http://www.torahofmessiah.com/) which call Yeshua "Yahshua" and believe that modern day MJ's follow the antichrist :S
this group is anti-missionary Orthodox Jews. I actually recieve much of their teaching- however never put blame on MJ's as the followers of the anti-Messiah (well depends on which groups within the MJ movement I believe are misled by christianity.

And the "messianic age" is also accepted within Orthodox Judaism along with the "messiah"- the reformers have only taken part of what Judaism teaches and tore the belief apart.

If some only wish to see Messiah Yeshuah as a Great Rabbi, then let them. if some want to recieve him as the evyonim- then let them. if some want to recieve him as the Messiah ben Yosef- then let them. if some wish to go the extra step of believing that Yeshuah is "Mighty G-D/Everlasting father" then let them.

However, let no person reject the authority of this man Yeshuah, and let no one reject ANY of those that Yeshuah gave authority to. All of those who are the head of Messiah have great insight to who Messiah is.
And this includes those that are the leaders of Rabbinic Judaism as Messiah said we are to follow their Halachic rulings (mat 23)

[simchat_torah]

Moshe was called "G-d" to pharoh. We are called G-ds over this Earth.

The term Elohim simply denotes authority.

I doubt any messianic, no matter how much they question the trinity, would have a problem with acknowledging the authority of the messiah. nu?

[Ebion]

Thank you again Ebion, lol sorry I just have so many questions: Don’t worry. I love answering them. :)

Are there any snyagogues/shuls/temples for Ebionite Judaism?Not at this time. That’s why they are encouraged to go to the synagogue of any Jewish denomination but Karaite if possible.

I ask because I was wondering what sort of role Yeshua would play in every day ebionism, since you do not stray from the Tanakh. Correction: Ebionites rely solely on the Tanakh AND the teachings of Jesus. He plays either a major or minor role depending on the individual and the congregation.

I may be totally wrong but I feel you think of him as someone who came to set an example to lead the way to the messianic age? You are totally right.

I have heard of this before that the "no man shall come to the father but by me" thing can mean "no man shall come to the father but by IMMITATING me" in other words, doing good deeds, praying, observing mitzvot etc. I have actually heard of rabbinic Jews who have used that to dismiss Yeshua, was wondering if that is the case with Ebionitism. Ebionites do not recognize the Gospel of John as Scripture nor do they believe the words ascribed to Jesus in that gospel are truly his own.

I have always thought without the Talmud it must be very difficult to interpret the law. Sadducees who were Karaites interpreted Tallits to be nailed to the walls of the house for example o_O or so I’ve heard. Hmmm… Perhaps you should read the Karaite FAQ (http://www.karaite-korner.org/karaite_faq.shtml).

If Ebionite Judaism accepts Yeshua as a great teacher (which he was as well as moshiach) then too do you have respect for Rashi, Maimonidees and many other of the great sages? Of course. However, I would reject their negative opinions of Jesus if they expressed any.

I am glad to see at least you are indeed Jewish through halacha, that link I showed you earlier were they said MJs followed the antichrist was actually almost entirely gentile.Why does this fact make you glad?

Speaking of which, what is your view on salvation for the gentile? Do you accept the idea of B'nei Noach or do you think that gentiles need to convert to Judaism?Interestingly enough, ancient Ebionites actually had a great interest in seeking a path reflected in the pre-Sinai revelation, especially the time of Enoch to Noah. But to answer your questions, Ebionites encourage Gentiles to convert to Judaism even if they are not obligated to. However, they will be granted salvation if they follow the Noahide Laws.

[Ebion]

Hence any step in speaking about Yeshua must start from the Prophets associated with the Torah era who speak of His deity WELL BEFORE the likes of Paul who may have made statements that were not deemed agreeable. The big CHALLENGE for you therefore, is to verify the authenticity of the Old Testament. Is Isaiah false?Since I don't have time nor the interest to debate this particular topic for now, allow me to refer you to an interesting essay from the Things We Didn't Find Out In Sunday School website entitled The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 (http://www.mindspring.com/~bab5/BIB/l8.htm)...

[Linda8]

Since I don't have time nor the interest to debate this particular topic for now, allow me to refer you to an interesting essay from the Things We Didn't Find Out In Sunday School website entitled The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 (http://www.mindspring.com/~bab5/BIB/l8.htm)...
We can be brief about it if you wish but you came to debate so feel free

and comfortable to do so.

I read the website and it lists out the various views. So in your opinion, the

sufering servant is already on earth, partly gathered back to Zion . That is goodnews.

What is the Sufferingservant waiting for since the servant is already gathered.?

When would the nations feel their wisdom and insight and the global leadership that is their right from G-d? Could you please give me some info on what the scripture says about what would be the transformation conditions that would usher in the time when the Suffering servant will Lead the nations?

[Ebion]

We can be brief about it if you wish but you came to debate so feel free and comfortable to do so.I do but, as I said, I don't have the time nor the interest to debate this particular topic for now.

I read the website and it lists out the various views. So in your opinion, the sufering servant is already on earth, partly gathered back to Zion. That is goodnews. What is the Sufferingservant waiting for since the servant is already gathered?Wrong. Not all the lost tribes have returned to the Promised Land yet.(See Isaiah 43:5-6, Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3; Isaiah 11:12; Zechariah 10:6; and Ezekiel 37:21-22)

When would the nations feel their wisdom and insight and the global leadership that is their right from G-d?After the building of the Third Temple I presume. (See Ezekiel 37:26-28, Ezekiel 40-48 and Isaiah 33:20)

Could you please give me some info on what the scripture says about what would be the transformation conditions that would usher in the time when the Suffering servant will Lead the nations?Ezekiel 37 is a good place to start. In this chapter, the prophet clearly teaches that we can recognize the coming of the messiah when: the resurrection of the dead, the building of the final Temple that will stand forever in Jerusalem, the universal knowledge of God and obedience to His Law, the restoration of the lost tribes, and the complete restoration of the Jewish people to their land all take place. When we consider that none of this has occurred, we can be assured that although many thousands of individuals have claimed to be the messiah throughout the centuries, Jesus included, none of them is.
;)