Moses, the burning bush and Commandments

[Linda8]

Hi,

I have a question regarding the commandment that warns against idols.

The Lord appeared to Moses in a burning bush as described in Exodus 3:4-6.

How does this impact on issues of the weaknesses of idolatry in human worship?

Could the burning bush create idolatrous behavior or could the burning

bush be accused of idolatry/deification?


So what if instead of the burning bush, a human form (like Moses but NOT an angel) spoke to Moses

in Exodus 3:4-6? How would that be different from the burning bush or a cloud (as in

Exodus 13:21-22) regarding issues of idolatry? Is the burning bush/cloud etc allowable

as opposed to a human?

Blessings

[BenTsion]

Linda,
Shalom!
I believe the burning bush was probably a necessity. Let's take a quick look at Moses' religious background: he grew up worshipping the egyptian idols, all of which could be seen and touched. So I think G-d knew that Moses needed a visual aid of some kind until he became spiritually more mature.

As for the reason why G-d did not appear in human shape, I think G-d was trying to make a statement. Mind you, the egyptian idols, much like almost every idol ever built by human beings, had a human + animal shape. When G-d chose to manifest Himself to Moses in a different way, He was stating that He was not like any of the gods of Egypt that Moses was familiar with. And such message was reinforced by His introduction as "I WILL BE WHATEVER I WILL BE".

As for idolatry, as far as the children of Israel were concerned, I don't think it would've made a difference. The root of idolatry is in the human heart, not in the object of worship. A close look at the book of Sh'mot (Exodus) suggests that the golden calf was an attempt to represent G-d. So I figure no matter how G-d manifested Himself, idolatry was imminent after Israel had spent so many years being poisoned by a sinful environment (Egypt).

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Henaynei]

Linda,
Shalom!
I believe the burning bush was probably a necessity. Let's take a quick look at Moses' religious background: he grew up worshipping the egyptian idols, all of which could be seen and touched. So I think G-d knew that Moses needed a visual aid of some kind until he became spiritually more mature.

As for the reason why G-d did not appear in human shape, I think G-d was trying to make a statement. Mind you, the egyptian idols, much like almost every idol ever built by human beings, had a human + animal shape. When G-d chose to manifest Himself to Moses in a different way, He was stating that He was not like any of the gods of Egypt that Moses was familiar with. And such message was reinforced by His introduction as "I WILL BE WHATEVER I WILL BE".

As for idolatry, as far as the children of Israel were concerned, I don't think it would've made a difference. The root of idolatry is in the human heart, not in the object of worship. A close look at the book of Sh'mot (Exodus) suggests that the golden calf was an attempt to represent G-d. So I figure no matter how G-d manifested Himself, idolatry was imminent after Israel had spent so many years being poisoned by a sinful environment (Egypt).

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion
Good post!!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_7_13.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[sojeru]

i see the fire to the point- "I CANNOT BE TOUCHED and dealt with in any way by human hands"
while with idols, they are fashioned and made into any way by the human hand.
HaShem was saying by the burning bush that he cannot. And if tried, the human will get burned if not die.
"for HaShem is a consuming fire"

[Linda8]

Linda,
Shalom!
I believe the burning bush was probably a necessity. Let's take a quick look at Moses' religious background: he grew up worshipping the egyptian idols, all of which could be seen and touched. So I think G-d knew that Moses needed a visual aid of some kind until he became spiritually more mature.

As for the reason why G-d did not appear in human shape, I think G-d was trying to make a statement. Mind you, the egyptian idols, much like almost every idol ever built by human beings, had a human + animal shape. When G-d chose to manifest Himself to Moses in a different way, He was stating that He was not like any of the gods of Egypt that Moses was familiar with. And such message was reinforced by His introduction as "I WILL BE WHATEVER I WILL BE".

As for idolatry, as far as the children of Israel were concerned, I don't think it would've made a difference. The root of idolatry is in the human heart, not in the object of worship. A close look at the book of Sh'mot (Exodus) suggests that the golden calf was an attempt to represent G-d. So I figure no matter how G-d manifested Himself, idolatry was imminent after Israel had spent so many years being poisoned by a sinful environment (Egypt).

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

Shalom Ben,

Indeed you put it very well and a related point is that G-d's ability to appear in different forms

should not be misunderstood by others to result in some forms of polytheism.

[Linda8]

i see the fire to the point- "I CANNOT BE TOUCHED and dealt with in any way by human hands"
while with idols, they are fashioned and made into any way by the human hand.
HaShem was saying by the burning bush that he cannot. And if tried, the human will get burned if not die.
"for HaShem is a consuming fire"

Exactly.
G-d made it clear He was beyond what humans could rationalise and think of thus introducing His Almighty nature to Moses.

[Charlesinflorida]

A close look at the book of Sh'mot (Exodus) suggests that the golden calf was an attempt to represent G-d. So I figure no matter how G-d manifested Himself, idolatry was imminent after Israel had spent so many years being poisoned by a sinful environment (Egypt).

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

Greetings on this fine Sabbath,

This is an important point. The calf was meant to be a symbol of Adonai not a turning to another God. These folks had no idea how to access the one God, YHVH. So they did so in the form that they were most familiar with, the Egyptian Pagan tradition. Now if we fast forward a few thousand years we se the "Church" doing the exact same thing. Pagans who were coming to faith in Yeshua he Messiah and entering into fellowship in the synagogue enviornment were in a squeeze to be faithful to the Gospel of faith and to comply wih the still legalistic Jews who did not yet know Yeshua as Messiah and in the mix also were those both Jews and Gentiles who had come to a right balance. With the pressure of the Jewish wars in the late 60's, and persecution from the Roman auhority against Jews, some in the church began to look for ways to separate themselves from the Tzionist faction which was deeply entrenched in Judaism of that day. The hope was that this separation would remove the Roman pressure. As the mature leadership, from the apostles like Paul, Pete, James ect, were killed and with the routing from Jerusalem of all "Messianic types", the churh began to fall back into Pagan type traditions, and refitting them as a system of religion, to approach the one God. But YHVH had said, " You shall not worship me in the way that the Pagans worship their Gods, for I am one God." But that is exactly what they did, they began to worship the one true God in the way the Pagans worshipped their gods.

This is why most of what orthodox chistianity calls the "The traditions of the elders", or the teachings of the "church fathers" is really almost three centuries into this apostasy. They fail to go back to the true beliefs and actions of the first churchs, in Israel. So what happens,, is a church who disregards the commandments and live in complete contadiction to the basic teachings of Yeshua and the Talmidum. Christians today with fight to keep the "Ten Commandments" posted in public places, but they reject it's validity to their own lives, and reject its teachings. Do they "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy"? No, they keep the Sun-day, the verniable day of the sun god mithras. (Roman god of the sun) When was Messiah Born?; on the first day of Sukkot. What does the church recognize as the birth?; Dec 25th, the very same day that the Pagans recognized as the birth of Mithra. Does the church keep the passover? No, they keep the feast of Eshitar, the Roman fertility goddess, which was celebrated with eggs, rabbits, chicks and all sorts of fertility symbols.

So the bottom line is that the church has long practiced traditions of Golden calf substituion, where they have polished up old Pagan things and given them a fresh coating of Chrisitian paint. In the writings of the early church fathers this system of assimilation was seen as a great inovation or the inclusion of the Pagans. But it is all an abomination to YHVH, if we are to really learn the lesson from Sh'mot.

I wonder some times about the mark of the beast in revelation. It is on the hand and/or forehead, which indicate, what you think (head) and what you do (hand). Messianics believe and do what God has told us, and what Yeshua and his talmidum did. The Christian church does the traditons of the calf, established after Constantine. Do we not bear the mark already, by which Adonai will identify his own?


Charles in Florida

[Henaynei]

CharlesInFlorida,

You do have some interesting insight here. Interesting to read. :)

Shalom
Henaynei
in Florida, too

p.s.
it was a bit difficult to read due to numerous typos. I know the spellchecker here is tedious and I don't use it. I usually either write up my post in Word or copy it over to Word and let the spellchecker in Word fix my goofs. Then I paste it back into the post window.

hint - you can have fun using more fonts that way too!

[Charlesinflorida]

CharlesInFlorida,

You do have some interesting insight here. Interesting to read. :)

Shalom
Henaynei
in Florida, too

p.s.
it was a bit difficult to read due to numerous typos. I know the spellchecker here is tedious and I don't use it. I usually either write up my post in Word or copy it over to Word and let the spellchecker in Word fix my goofs. Then I paste it back into the post window.

hint - you can have fun using more fonts that way too!

Greetings,

Sorry for that. :D

I went back and edited the post after I prematurely hit the post button. I am still trying to get my old stiff fingers to get used to the new lap top I purchased a month ago. Haven't used it much until this week. The Keying is a lot different than my desk top units of the past. Since we moved into a R.V. as our main residence, I needed something smaller so ...The Laptop is all I have now.

None the less, I am glad that you found my comments interesting.
as I too have been enjoying the other posts here.

Charles

[Shiphrah]

So what if instead of the burning bush, a human form (like Moses but NOT an angel) spoke to Moses

in Exodus 3:4-6? How would that be different from the burning bush or a cloud (as in

Exodus 13:21-22) regarding issues of idolatry? Is the burning bush/cloud etc allowable

as opposed to a human?

Blessings

I think the reason God didn't come in human form would be that Moses would not believe him. I mean think about it, your out in the hot dessert wandering around then poof there is a man telling you that he is God and he wants you to go back to Egypt and set His people free.

I think that a burning bush that was not consumed by the fire would be much more eye catching ( can you just imagine what Moses wife thought when he came back from his little excursion?)

[Henaynei]

I think that a burning bush that was not consumed by the fire would be much more eye catching ( can you just imagine what Moses wife thought when he came back from his little excursion?)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_4.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) YEEEES, deeeear.

[Charlesinflorida]

Another point on this "Burning Bush", it was a contradiction in basic understanding, something that could not be faked by man, I believe. It was as I understand it, a living bush, yet appeared to be on fire. Not a dead burning bush, which no one would consider. But a living green shrub, which was burning and not consumed, or whithered, is altogether another matter, one which went beyond the most powerful magicians of Egypt to perform.

Look now at the miracles of Yeshua and we find once again that he did things that no other priest or holy man could do. In fact some of what he did was assigned as things that only Messiah would be able to do. For example restoring the hearing to a man who was born deaf, the priests could not do this, because as act of healing for them required that they speak to the demon and get it to pronounce its name and then cast it out. One born without speech or hearing would not be able to do this. The priests might were given authority to heal, and to deliver, but not to orgive sins and in the process, to restore and heal as the proof of this forgiveness. If there was any trade mark act of God it is to give life or to restore that which was missing. Yeshua raised dead men, and gave sight to men who never had sight..

In the story of Yeshua who restored the sight to a man born blind, he says the man was not born blind because of his sin or his parents sin but that the glory of God could be revealed. And in this particular case Yeshua bends down and makes clay out of the dust and his spittle. Why? Because man was formed from the clay of the earth, in Genesis. What is really happening here I believe, and the reason it rose such a commotion is that the man was not "Born blind" as such but was born "without sight" in other words he was born without eyes (eyeballs). And Yeshua demonstrated his ability as the creator by taking clay and forming for the man brand new eye balls. Notice he presses the clay into the eyes, not onto them. And where does all this take place? At the pool where the people are massing together for the water ceremony during Tabernacles, where they meet to realign themeselves with the creator of all things. As the people and the priests come to get water and to ask God to bless them with rain for the year, which means life itself in that arid climate, here Yeshua says, If any man thirsts let him come to me and out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Fresh flowing non-stagnent life, He says, comes through Him. Yeshua!

YHVH is the God of the otherwise impossible.

Blessings,

Charles in Florida