B.C. Congregation defies Episcopal Bishop

[MariaRegina]

Church 'terminated' in same-sex battle
B.C. congregation defied bishop, would not marry gays

Michael Higgins
National Post

Tuesday, December 23, 2003
Michael Ingham, Bishop of New Westminster Diocese, approved the closure of Holy Cross church after it refused to submit to his authority.
CREDIT: Bill Keay, CanWest News Service

An Anglican church defying its bishop by refusing to support same-sex unions has been "terminated" only days before Christmas.

The decision by Bishop Michael Ingham to close Holy Cross in Abbotsford, B.C., is the latest action in a dispute that is threatening to split the Anglican church worldwide.

Despite the closure, the priest at Holy Cross, the Rev. James Wagner, vowed yesterday to celebrate mass on Christmas Day with parishioners.

"As far as the diocese is concerned we do not exist. We are a non-entity," Mr. Wagner said yesterday. "But I will not abandon these people. I will continue to pastor and pray for them in the midst of this crisis."

He said the decision by Bishop Ingham to close the church was a surprise because "it's so close to Christmas."

Ronald Harrison, executive archdeacon of the Diocese of New Westminster, said Holy Cross brought the closure upon itself by seeking episcopal oversight from another bishop. He said that a result of the church declaring itself "independent" was that its funds had been stopped and eventually the bishop was forced to close it.

The decision by Bishop Ingham to sanction same-sex unions, and the broader issue of homosexuality, has caused a deep division in the Anglican church. In October, Anglican leaders met at a crisis conference in London called in part because of Bishop Ingham's approval of same-sex unions.

The Canadian House of Bishops has also set up a task force to look at parishes opposed to Bishop Ingham's decision.

Holy Cross, a mission church that relies on its funding from the diocese, is part of a group of breakaway churches in New Westminster that was seeking episcopal oversight by Bishop Terry Buckle of the Yukon.

In October, the Diocesan Council of New Westminster voted to close Holy Cross but needed Bishop Ingham's approval. However, funding was withdrawn from the church.

In a letter dated Dec. 18, Bishop Ingham informed Mr. Wagner that he had decided to close the church.

Mr. Wagner said he told parishioners the news on Sunday.

"They were shocked and surprised that it would come at this time. When they got the news, it was four days before Christmas."

None of the other churches in the breakaway group have been closed. Because they are incorporated individually, and don't rely on funding from the diocese, they have been able to carry on.

Mr. Wagner said the church was being ostracized within the diocese although it was still aligned with Anglican-thinking worldwide.

"Substantially we are right in step with Anglicans throughout the world and that has great consolation for them [the parishioners] because they very much want to be Anglicans. They are not doing things rebelliously and very much want to be a part of the family of Anglicans throughout the world."

The termination of the church meant they were, "like sheep without a shepherd," he said.

He said although they would celebrate Mass on Christmas Day, they would not be recognized as Anglicans.

"It's not just that the Diocese of New Westminster will not recognize us as Anglicans, the really sad thing is that unofficially there are many Anglicans who want to recognize us, but officially there is no one that will recognize us as such."

Mr. Wagner had already had his pay cut off by the diocese and now needed to consult with his lawyer to see what his position is.

"I don't regret what I am doing or the circumstances I find myself in. I think that Jesus often talked about his disciples having to count the cost and having to take up their cross," he said.

He called on the Canadian House of Bishops and primates internationally for clear leadership.

Mr. Wagner said they had already been in discussion with the House of Bishops' task force.

The task force was set up to establish, "adequate provision for Episcopal oversight of dissenting minorities."

It followed a call from Dr. Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, who warned the church was in danger of splintering over the issue of homosexuality.

After the task force was set up, Bishop Ingham wrote to Holy Cross offering to restore their funding if they accepted his authority.

Mr. Harrison said the bishop had never had a satisfactory reply except from Mr. Wagner to say that he was consulting his lawyer.

"We support and fund all kinds of things, including mission initiatives, but if they have openly declared their hostility to the diocese and the diocesan bishop and will not rescind that even when the bishop has stepped back from the plate, the question is: 'Why would we fund that?'

"The decision was made months ago and the bishop withheld his decision while he waited for the parish to respond favourably. They didn't correspond with him. It has nothing to do with Christmas. We have been waiting for their response for some time."
© National Post 2003

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=40504029-ab5b-4d11-a979-4f61d537fe9c

[MariaRegina]

http://www.americananglican.org/

What is this group? Is it a more traditionalistic Episcopalian group?

Perhaps this is the group to watch?

Let's pray for those in the Anglican and Episcopal Church that they may be saved.

[Polycarp1]

Huh.

A group insists on going into schism rather than remaining in dialogue because they are convinced that their bishops have gone astray from the faith, and an Orthodox woman believes that they are the ones in need of prayer. May I respectfully suggest that (a) everyone, on both sides of the disagreement, need prayer, me most especially, and (b) the stance you outline is contrary to Orthodox principles in one sense though in keeping with them in another.

Minor bit of vocabulary, too: "episcopal" with a small E means of or pertaining to bishops, or of a church which has bishops in governance. In this sense, the Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox churches are episcopal. But with a capital E it refers specifically to two churches -- those in communion with the See of Canterbury in the United States of America and in Scotland. The other churches in communion with Canterbury describe themselves as Anglican, including the Anglican Church of Canada. To refer to the Bishop of New Westminster as "an Episcopal Bishop" is a solecism on a par with referring to all you folks who post in the Ancient Way as "Greek Orthodox."

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I would say that a church that is willing to be cut off from their funding and even closed because their parent organization is teaching things that are obviously against the scriptures is in the right and has done the only right thing that they can do. If their parent organization insists that they teach false doctrine then they must refuse and if that refusal results in a schism then it is the fault of the corrupt parent organization and not the fault of the single church that stood up for what is right and scriptural!

[Polycarp1]

I would say that a church that is willing to be cut off from their funding and even closed because their parent organization is teaching things that are obviously against the scriptures is in the right and has done the only right thing that they can do. If their parent organization insists that they teach false doctrine then they must refuse and if that refusal results in a schism then it is the fault of the corrupt parent organization and not the fault of the single church that stood up for what is right and scriptural!
Believe me, I do understand your point.

But by the same token, would you say that a church that believes that its parent organization's attitude of condemning unrepentant homosexuals goes against God's Law as stated by Christ is actually in the right?

It seems to all depend on what you take as "Scriptural" and what you understand as "false doctrine" based on misreading of Scripture.

[MariaRegina]

http://www.americananglican.org/

What is this group? Is it a more traditionalistic Episcopalian group?

Perhaps this is the group to watch?

Let's pray for those in the Anglican and Episcopal Church that they may be saved.

Dear Polycarp,

I amended my post as this is what I meant to say. I do pray for the salvation of all. However, not all choose to be saved unfortunately.

P.S. I'll try to be more careful in my use of pronouns.

[BarbB]

http://www.americananglican.org/

What is this group? Is it a more traditionalistic Episcopalian group?

Perhaps this is the group to watch?

Let's pray for those in the Anglican and Episcopal Church that they may be saved.

chanter - this group comprises the conservative parishes which do not approve the election of Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire. Perhaps there might be a way for a Canadian church to affiliate as the name is American, as in North American. My experience is that the churches thus affiliated tend to be the spirit-led born-again types. I've attended 5 different episcopal and anglican churches. All but one were affiliated with AAC and as a quasi-pentacostal I loved the worship!

My church in Mass. as well as the Central Florida diocese have affiliated with them. I approve all their actions! This issue may split the church, but the liberal 2/3rds knew that before the vote. If schism is the result, it will be on the heads of both groups!

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

My church in Mass. as well as the Central Florida diocese have affiliated with them. I approve all their actions! This issue may split the church, but the liberal 2/3rds knew that before the vote. If schism is the result, it will be on the heads of both groups!



Well I do not think it would be on the heads of both groups, only the group forcing false teachings to be accepted.


But by the same token, would you say that a church that believes that its parent organization's attitude of condemning unrepentant homosexuals goes against God's Law as stated by Christ is actually in the right?


Your question is a bit obtuse, can you please elaborate so that I do not answer something you have not asked?

[MariaRegina]

chanter - this group comprises the conservative parishes which do not approve the election of Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire. Perhaps there might be a way for a Canadian church to affiliate as the name is American, as in North American. My experience is that the churches thus affiliated tend to be the spirit-led born-again types. I've attended 5 different episcopal and anglican churches. All but one were affiliated with AAC and as a quasi-pentacostal I loved the worship!

My church in Mass. as well as the Central Florida diocese have affiliated with them. I approve all their actions! This issue may split the church, but the liberal 2/3rds knew that before the vote. If schism is the result, it will be on the heads of both groups!

Newly edited:

Thanks for the information.

St Paul said that we are to correct one another in love (cf. Corinthians). Sometimes tough love is needed and those in error need to be excommunicated. Or sometimes when the majority of the church is in error (as during the time of the Arian heresy in the 4th century) the laity need to correct the hierarchy. Saint Athanasius (a Bishop in the early church) was very alone in standing up against the heterodox of his times. It was the devout laity and his teachings which finally won the day and the Arian heresy was put to rest. Or was it? Do people truly believe that Christ is the Incarnate God in the flesh? Is Christmas just a meal or is it the belief that the Savior God was born in the flesh - God with us?

If Christ is truly God, then shouldn't we be a Holy People of God? Are we?

May we be blessed with men of St. Athanasius's calibre today.

Prayerfully yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[Andre]

I support that churche's action 100%.
That exemple should be followed by many.

[MariaRegina]

I support that churche's action 100%.
That exemple should be followed by many.

I guess we all have to be careful in our use of pronouns and descriptive adjectives. Mea culpa. Please tell me, Andre -- what do you mean by "that church" and "that example" -- which church and what example?

Thanks,

Elizabeth

[Cary.Melvin]

The decision by Bishop Ingham to sanction same-sex unions, and the broader issue of homosexuality, has caused a deep division in the Anglican church. In October, Anglican leaders met at a crisis conference in London called in part because of Bishop Ingham's approval of same-sex unions.

It followed a call from Dr. Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, who warned the church was in danger of splintering over the issue of homosexuality.

If I were the Archbishop of Canterbury, I would have had this Bishop striped of his position for spreading heretical beliefs. What is he waiting for? The total colapse of the Anglican Church? I think its about time he excersised some authority to nip this problem in the bud.

[Polycarp1]

chanter, thanks for your courtesy. I'll try to be worthy of the kindness you have shown me. newlamb, I appreciate your placing the clarification of who the Anglican group is on the board. Actually there are several groups: the "American Anglican Council" (AAC) is a large group of conservative Episcopalians who have not schismed but are working for the reform of the church to what they believe to be Biblically and morally correct. The "Anglican Mission in America" (AMIA) is a fairly small schismatic group that split in 1977 (or thereabouts) over the adoption of the new Prayer Book and the ordination of women as priests. And there are other smaller groups that meet the last description as well -- most of them led by folks who refused to work together, and so split off from the AMIA.

To anwwer cary.melvin's question, the Anglican Church of Canada and the Episcopal Church in the US are autocephalic churches, over whom the Archbishop of Canterbury has no authority save moral leadership. I'd ask chanter or Oblio's help in explaining this, but it's much as though the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople were to speak out on what the Orthodox Church in America or the Antiochan Exarchate chose to do here in the US -- they'd listen respectfully, but they and they alone will decide what is the proper course to take.

[MariaRegina]

chanter, thanks for your courtesy. I'll try to be worthy of the kindness you have shown me. newlamb, I appreciate your placing the clarification of who the Anglican group is on the board. Actually there are several groups: the "American Anglican Council" (AAC) is a large group of conservative Episcopalians who have not schismed but are working for the reform of the church to what they believe to be Biblically and morally correct. The "Anglican Mission in America" (AMIA) is a fairly small schismatic group that split in 1977 (or thereabouts) over the adoption of the new Prayer Book and the ordination of women as priests. And there are other smaller groups that meet the last description as well -- most of them led by folks who refused to work together, and so split off from the AMIA.

To anwwer cary.melvin's question, the Anglican Church of Canada and the Episcopal Church in the US are autocephalic churches, over whom the Archbishop of Canterbury has no authority save moral leadership. I'd ask chanter or Oblio's help in explaining this, but it's much as though the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople were to speak out on what the Orthodox Church in America or the Antiochan Exarchate chose to do here in the US -- they'd listen respectfully, but they and they alone will decide what is the proper course to take.


Do you remember when the Orthodox Patriarchs of Constantinople and Russia refused to honor each other at Communion during the Divine Liturgy. It caused an international scene! This is what happens when the Orthodox disagree in matters of faith and morals. By not mentioning a particular church at the celebrating of the Eucharist, it indicates that the other is not in communion (excommunicated so to speak).

How does the Anglican Church handle this?

[BarbB]

If I were the Archbishop of Canterbury, I would have had this Bishop striped of his position for spreading heretical beliefs. What is he waiting for? The total colapse of the Anglican Church? I think its about time he excersised some authority to nip this problem in the bud.

The previous Archbishop talked another homosexual into resigning his bishopric. this is a new Archbishop who obviously had a different agenda.

what I read in my AAC newsletter is that the Archbishop is considering separating the churches with the bishop of Pittsburgh in charge of the more conservative churches. We'll have to see.

Hi polycarp! Check out the latest news at americananglican.org

[MariaRegina]

Good, the PECUSA is better off without them!

I hope the door DOES hit them in the a$$ on the way out.

They deserve to be excommunicated!

Kiwimac

Who is the PECUSA anyway?

[Polycarp1]

Who is the PECUSA anyway?
Original name of the Episcopal Church: Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America. In 1784 when the name was selected though, to its founders "Protestant" meant merely "separate from the Roman Catholic Church" -- so the name meant "the church separate from the Romanists which preserves (the apostolic tradition and) the historic episcopate" and did not carry the focus that American Protestantism has given it. Accordingly, several decades back, the decision was made that, while keeping the original name for historic and legal reasons, the church would refer to itself as the Episcopal Church, with "in the USA" added where necessary for clarification.

To answer your other question, I do not believe that any member church has ever been excommunicated from the Anglican Communion. The Church of Kenya's refusal to recognize us would be the first occasion.

[Andre]

I guess we all have to be careful in our use of pronouns and descriptive adjectives. Mea culpa. Please tell me, Andre -- what do you mean by "that church" and "that example" -- which church and what example?

Thanks,

ElizabethSorry, I mean the that I support the church that didn't comply with the new changes by the Episcopal Church and refused to acept homosexual unions.

[JVAC]

This is all pretty interesting, in the Lutheran Church, (which is in full communion currently with the Episcopal) is having trouble the other way, renegade churches marry homosexuals and are cut off from the Synod. I can only imagine next we will have cats and dogs befriending eachother.

Well, I am glad not all of the Episcopalian Church has gone to the dogs. Unfortunately another church starts living of the earth instead of on the earth. I am not sure how long the Lutherans can hold fast in this liberalizing world. We come to a dilema, how can we ban brothers and sisters in christ, yet how can we tolerate heresy??

Satan is wickedly crafty, and he has been trying to get into our churches for years. Like that hymn says, "The old satanic foe, hath sworn to work us woe." Schism isn't pretty, everyone must hate to see a Church torn apart. The Bible teaches us to above all strive to keep unity. Should we take members off the body, at the same time, "If you eye causes you to sin, cut it off..."

Such a thing can only be of the devil, there are false sons in the Churches Pale, who are they? Only through fervent faithful prayer can the true children of God be delivered from Poneros (evil, the embodiment of evil, the evil one).

This reminds me so much of a story told in the hymn, "The Church's one foundation"

The Church’s one foundation
Is Jesus Christ her Lord,
She is His new creation
By water and the Word.
From heaven He came and sought her
To be His holy bride;
With His own blood He bought her
And for her life He died.

Elect from every nation,
Yet one o’er all the earth;
Her charter of salvation,
One Lord, one faith, one birth;
One holy Name she blesses,
Partakes one holy food,
And to one hope she presses,
With every grace endued.

The Church shall never perish!
Her dear Lord to defend,
To guide, sustain, and cherish,
Is with her to the end:
Though there be those who hate her,
And false sons in her pale,
Against or foe or traitor
She ever shall prevail.

Though with a scornful wonder
Men see her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed:
Yet saints their watch are keeping,
Their cry goes up, “How long?”
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song!

’Mid toil and tribulation,
And tumult of her war,
She waits the consummation
Of peace forevermore;
Till, with the vision glorious,
Her longing eyes are blest,
And the great Church victorious
Shall be the Church at rest.

Yet she on earth hath union
With God the Three in One,
And mystic sweet communion
With those whose rest is won,
With all her sons and daughters
Who, by the Master’s hand
Led through the deathly waters,
Repose in Eden land.

O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we
Like them, the meek and lowly,
On high may dwell with Thee:
There, past the border mountains,
Where in sweet vales the Bride
With Thee by living fountains
Forever shall abide!


To all those churches expereincing such a trial:
"May the Lord bless you and keep you,
May the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you
May the Lord grant you his peace
In the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen"

-James

[MariaRegina]

Here's some more news that another Christian sent me:

Please pray for the salvation of the Anglicans that they may be saved.

Gay.com UK
Tuesday 30 December, 2003 12:20:
More churches split from Anglicans

The impact of the first openly gay Anglican bishop is still being felt across the worldwide communion, with another Church cutting ties this week.

The Anglican Church in Zambia has announced it will cut its ties with the New Hampshire dioceses in the US, after it consecrated Gene Robinson in November.

While the move brought the Church, which has 70 million worldwide members, to the point of schism, its leader Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams called for calm while he set up a commission looking into the Church’s stance on sexuality.

Some churches have already said they cannot wait for the results of this, and have effectively cut the Church out. These churches include those in South East Asia, some countries in Africa, including Nigeria and Uganda, and more conservative followers in the USA.

However, the Zambian Church says it will also cut its ties with Williams, because he has so far failed to enforce a rejection of Robinson.

Bishop Derek Kamukwamba said the consecration of a gay bishop is “appalling” because same sex relationships go against Biblical teachings.

[endure]

people refuse to merge with homosexuality and filthiness of the flesh at all costs...

PRAISE GOD!

chanter
i commend you for your lack of discussion and rather focus on the need for prayer for a broken people... thats so beautiful.
bless you.

kiwimak
well...that wasnt very loving was it?
i mean, God wants them saved too, ya know?
mercy got them in the church, and mercy should desire they be able to stay for their sake... if we really cared we pray and fast for them instead of deciding "OK, THEY DIDNT LISTEN, OUT WITH THEM!" so quickly.

i mean, there is a love that covers sin and even though sin is present, mercy's only priority is that they be restored, not get theirs.
if it comes to excommunication then so beit, but we should all rather it be a diffrent way...

[New Creation]

I attend St. Andrew's church on the Sunshine coast. We are one of the breakaway churches. I have only been a Christian for a year and therefore with this church only 10 months so I haven't had to go through as much as my fellow parishoners, but let me just give you a human toll here.

We are a tiny church in a fishing village. We are definitely not rich (materially anyway- otherwise, we are blessed). Our pastor is a strong, spirit -filled loving man of God who is ready to go the distance for Jesus. Because of this situation, he has been unable to minister to his flock as he would like to. People have suffered. One of the strongest couples in our congregation split up for a brief time. I had issues as a new Christian that I worked out without his help because I felt he just ahd enough on his plate as it was. Many others have done the same. There hasn't been the outreach necessary for the area. He is always having to go to some meeting somewhere or write some papers or praying or networking.
Our congregation voted 100% to break from New West though, so they were ready to make sacrifices. They have been going through this for over two years now. Our pastor has had a heart attack because of the stress. Quite a few people left the church (some came back however!) We are always under the threat of our pastor being fired and it's possible they could take our church too. even though the local community built it, it is owned by the anglican Church of Canada. Many people who live around here have labelled us bigots, gay-bashers, and the like. Our pastor is NOT very well liked by non-Christians. We live in a super-liberal area.
We pray for Michael Ingham every week. We pray for the healing of homosexuals. We pray for the healing of the church. We are being refined and we feel privileged to be able to stand for the Lord.
Because the Terry Buckle situation did not come through, we are now asking the AMiA to take us in. We need leadership that is biblical, not politically correct. It is truly an amazing thing that we may be missioned to by the bishop of Rwanda. He told us at the meeting of all 8 churches back in September that the people of Rwanda are praying for us all in North America, for our spiritual poverty. Indeed, we could use the prayer. We need it.

On behalf of the people of the breakaway 8, I thank you all for your prayer. Please continue, for the battle is nowhere near over.
God bless you all.

[mrversatile48]

When BBCi's "Have your say" debated homosexuality, nobody who tried to post Romans 1:18/32 was printed, but that passage charts the downward road to decadent perversion, as starting with refusing to acknowledge God as God, or to thank & praise Him as God - that, it says, results in hearts being darkened by sin & thinking becoming futile - the end result is the perversions that the Bible also calls abomination

True Freedom Trust has been successful, for over 30 years, in ministering deliverance

Type the name to a search engine for further help: Martin Hallett is the founder

[tigersnare]

I don't understand this, why are people in the Church so blind to blatent sin. Why do we not discipline the Church in the prescribed way, anymore?


This is a blanket statment, I'm just upset about the state of the Church in general, no only the Episcopalian Church.

[Polycarp1]

I don't understand this, why are people in the Church so blind to blatent sin. Does this bishop not read his bible anymore? Why do we not discipline the Church in the prescribed way, anymore?
Perhaps because we Episcopalians see what Jesus said as the most important things to do as more important than what He commanded us not to do as regards the judging of our fellow men.:mad: And perhaps because we understand Scripture to be speaking of other sins than the particular one you have in mind -- ones Jesus explicitly condemned, but which seem to be the mainstay activity of some branches of the people who call themselves "Christian."

And, let me ask, what sort of "discipline" do you have in mind? And what gives you the right to call for it?

I am perfectly and absolutely disgusted by the attacks on my church made by other supposed brothers and sisters in Christ -- with those from a church many of whose bishops have been engaged in covering up child molestation, and from a church whose just-retired leader rewrote the doctrines of the church to force his political opponents out of the denomination, being among the leaders in doing so. Perhaps they might take a good look at Jesus's teachings about the mote in the eye of another!

[tigersnare]

Perhaps because we Episcopalians see what Jesus said as the most important things to do as more important than what He commanded us not to do as regards the judging of our fellow men.:mad:

First of all, Jesus pointed out it was his judgment not ours. I agree, I'm not saying anybody is good, bad, hell bound or heaven bound, but when I see a friend in sin I use Jesus prescribed method in matthew, I want to know why this is not happening.

Second, if you by saying "we episcopalians see what Jesus said as the most important things to do" as loving God and loving your neighbor, than good for you. If you see that as ingnoring the rest of the stuff he said about confronting sin and dealing with it in a loving manner than......well.....ok.



And perhaps because we understand Scripture to be speaking of other sins than the particular one you have in mind -- ones Jesus explicitly condemned, but which seem to be the mainstay activity of some branches of the people who call themselves "Christian."

So basically you're questioning the "Christian-ness" of those that don't see all sin as physically and spirituall harmful to the body.


And, let me ask, what sort of "discipline" do you have in mind? And what gives you the right to call for it?

Not me....Paul.


I am perfectly and absolutely disgusted by the attacks on my church made by other supposed brothers and sisters in Christ -- with those from a church many of whose bishops have been engaged in covering up child molestation, and from a church whose just-retired leader rewrote the doctrines of the church to force his political opponents out of the denomination, being among the leaders in doing so. Perhaps they might take a good look at Jesus's teachings about the mote in the eye of another!

I'm sorry you are disgusted, I can understand you see the hipocrasy. Please know I am not attacking you or your Church I am sad for the Church as it functions, as a whole. I see sin abounding in my Church yet, no one is rebuking or disciplining out of love for bretheren and the body. And this seems to be normative.

Anyways, please accept my apology, school starts tomorrow and that's it for me and these boards for quite awhile. I'm am sorry if I offended you, it was not my intent to attack any one, even though from my post I can easily see how that could be read, that post has been edited, and what's left should be turned into a whole nother thread by itself.

Take Care, Polycarp, I will be praying for the state of all our Churches and the universal Church as well.