Pray4Israel; Noahide Laws?

[Valid Name]

Greetings!

I am writing this as an offshoot of Pray4Israel's thread "Where do I fit in to Messianic Judaism?"

I have spoken briefly to Rabbi Cohen about this subject, and also have seen in this thread those who promote the 'Noahide Laws' for Gentiles.

Often, Acts 15 is said to show that Gentiles were only bound to the Noahide Laws. My question would then be, why did they give only four laws? What about stealing? Surely this should have been mentioned?

So, for me, if you do not accept the New Testement, then this idea is not going to apply to you, however if you do, we might have a contention on our hands.

We are taught in Romans 5 that sin was in the world before the Law, but where there is no Law, sin is not imputed. A good example of this would be a small child. If your two year old walked out of a store carrying something that belonged to the store, would you punish them like you would a 15 year old who knows the difference? Of course not. So likewise, when there is no Law given, the sin is not imputed.

Now After Adam had sinned, no Laws had been given, except to those who had known the Law by some way shape or form of HaShem revealing it to a select few. However, the contention I have with the Noahide Laws, is that if they were being given to the population as a whole around the time of Noah, then imputed sin is going to be in the World, because people will be transgressing these Laws.

This is where the New Testement comes in:Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Paul concludes that Between Adam and Moses, there was no Law. If there had been Noahide Laws Paul's statement in 14 would not make sense. If HaShem had given Laws for people, then people would be Transgressing these Laws just as Adam Transgressed his commandment "thou shall not eat." Paul concludes that people were dying Who had not Transgressed A Commandment in the Way Adam did (the similitude). The only way that I see this as possible, is if there were No Commandments to Transgress, because the Noahide Laws were not given.

If anyone has any thoughts about how this can be reconciled with the Noahide Laws, please feel free.

Peace,
Valid Name

[Henaynei]

The first thing that jumps to mind is the Flood. HaShem said He was cleansing the world because of the rampant wickedness in all mankind. Only in Noach did He find righteousness.

This of course begs the question: if there was no Law how could there be either wickedness or righteousness??

Torah scholars teach that there was always the Law, but it was "codified" and given to Israel as guardian at Sinai.

The sons of Adam knew about sacrifice

Ya'acov knew that adultry was a sin against G-d

Avraham knew to give a tithe to Melek'Tzidek

There are many more examples..... between Adam and Moshe`

[BenTsion]

Valid Name,
Shalom!
Some argue that the other Noahide laws were already practiced by believers and therefore the apostles only mentioned the ones that were in fact controversial. Also, I once saw an article by a noahide (whose link I posted elsewhere in this forum - I have to look it up again) where it shows that the Noahide Laws aren't alien to Brit Hadasha theology, and that the three other laws can be found elsewhere in it.

As for Rav. Sha'ul's statement of the Law, I tend to see it as a reference to the uniqueness of the Torah. Previous laws, which Henaynei has already done a fine job illustrating, were not the result of a bi-lateral commitment in which transgression resulted in death. So, I believe the Torah pointed to our sinfulness, which the previous laws might not have done so much. Just a thought...

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

[Pray4Isrel]

This is an excellent branch of discussion from the thread I had started. I greatly look forward to reading everyone's replies!

When time allows, I will post my thoughts in this thread.

[Henaynei]

When a ger (gentile) chooses to convert to Judaism they approach a Rabbi with their request. The Rabbi is tradition bound to refuse them on at least their first 2 approaches. On or before their third approach the Rabbi will explain to them that it is unnecessary for a gentile to convert to Judaism in order to serve G-d, all they need do is keep the Noachide Laws. If/when the ger is finally accepted into the Jewish community to begin study for conversion they must be keeping the Noachide Laws. This assumes, of course, that the Rabbi and the conversion sought are Orthodox.



In ancient times the Noachide Laws were the minimum a ger who chose to abide within the community of Israel had to keep in order to be ceremonially clean enough to reside in the community.

[koilias]

What Paul probably intends by the statement: "for until law sin was in [the] world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" is that no record of sin is kept in heaven when the sinner has not "heard" a commandment "to do / not to do so and so" from God. According to Paul, until Moses, only Adam disobeyed a direct commandment from God. Following good Jewish tradition, Paul assumes that the entire world heard the laws given at Sinai, and so from Sinai on, the world is held liable to the Torah. (The Jew has even more responsibility because his forefathers swore to keep Torah at Sinai...the pain of not keeping Torah, for the Jew, is the curses listed in Deuteronomy...Unlike the gentile, the Jew has made a covenant.) The Torah did exist before Sinai, it just wasn't "declared" to everyone by HaShem until Sinai.

The Torah intensifies Grace, in Paul's logic, because it means that Grace has to be the main ingredient in a sustained relationship with God. A sinner's knowledge of Torah implicates him or her in the heavenly court. Therefore, more Grace than before (Sinai) is needed on God's part to forgive that person. God's Grace takes away the curse hanging over our heads. To "stand under Grace" as Paul so wonderfully puts it, we must have the kind of relationship with God that Abraham had with God.

Note: the Rabbis say: Israel "stood under the Torah" at Sinai, which is how the Rabbis interpret that they, Israel, "stood under Sinai" literally in the text...Jewish tradition had it that the entire mountain was suspended in the air above them waiting to crush them, when HaShem declared Torah--it is against this oppressive fear of the Torah that Paul is combating with his phrase "stand under Grace"! In other words, HaShem was threatening Israel, "Accept the Torah or else!"...Paul wants Israel to accept the terms of Torah, rather, as Abraham had accepted the terms: voluntarily and with heartfelt devotion. (If you understand this, you'll get the rest of Paul's writings, believe me!) Like Abraham, we choose to take upon ourselves, voluntarily (not under the threat of a gun, so to speak) the Torah. It's a heartfelt decision to be loyal to God, to show "Grace and Truth to HaShem" in Hebrew-speak. "To show Grace and Truth" as a supplement to: "To obey".

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom All,

Valid Name is presenting a good explanation as to when mankind became accountable for sin. Before anyone can be held accountable for sin, a law/Torah has to be given. This happened at Sinai, not at the flood. Paul realized that sin was committed BEFORE Sinai, but it was not imputed because there was no law/Torah. If there were Noahide laws in effect, then there would have been accountable sinners. Elohim gave the law/Torah at Sinai so that sinners could be made accountable and then become transgressors. To be a transgressor, one must break a command given by Elohim. Up until the giving of the law/Torah, only a select few had this opportunity. Adam, being the first to transgress a command, died for HIS sin. Between Adam and Moshe, mankind died because of this trangression by Adam, not their own. The giving of the law/Torah corrected this injustice. After the giving of the law/Torah, sinners could now die for their own transgression. This in effect (the giving of the law/Torah), increased transgression (breaking a command that was given by Elohim).

Increasing transgression automatically increases Grace. This is simple to understand when you see it, but it's difficult when you don't. The Grace of Elohim IS the free gift of righteousness. Righteousness is ALL of Yahweh's commands (Ps 119:172). This is how it works...The law/Torah makes all sinners into transgressors. We are now accountable for our sin just like Adam. The law/Torah also has within it the just (righteous) requirements which a sinner must do for their transgression. And what is that? Sacrifice! When one sacrifices for their sin, they are performing a command given by Elohim, and this is righteousness. Paul spoke of this righteousness, and he tried to convince Jew and Gentile alike that if one accepted Yahshua as THEIR sacrifice, then they were accomplishing the just requirement of the law/Torah. All sinners now have the opportunity to be righteous because they have sacrificed Yahshua in their transgression. One MUST be a transgressor to accomplish this righteousness (the sacrifice of Yahshua), so the more transgression (breaking of the law/Torah) there is, the more we have Elohim's Grace abounding (the Spiritual doing of the law/Torah through the sacrifice of Yahshua). Can you see it? By sinning, we are performing righteousness. When we transgress, we sacrifice Yahshua, and in doing this, we fulfill what the law/Torah required us sinners to do. So by increasing transgression, Grace (this free gift of righteousness) increases all the more. When a sinner truly sees this righteousness that is performed as a result of their transgression, they MUST turn from their sin. Anyone who delibrately sins (falls back INTO a life of sin) after coming to this knowledge of the truth, re-crucifies Yahshua. Yahshua allowed us to sacrifice Him so that we would come out of sin, not stay in it. This was the purpose of His sacrifice, to free us from sin (bring us OUT of sin). He just USED sin to show us the terrible consequence of it, His death.

Sorry, I made this a little longer than I wanted, but I feel it necessary to include the explanation of how transgression increases Grace.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[Henaynei]

Valid Name is presenting a good explanation as to when mankind became accountable for sin. Before anyone can be held accountable for sin, a law/Torah has to be given. This happened at Sinai, not at the flood. I, as well as the ancient Rabbis of wisdom and learning, hold that some form of the Law was given LONG BEFORE the Flood. But if they, and I, are wrong and if what you say is true, please explain how a loving and just G-d could kill all of mankind (except the few who "found grace in the eyes of the L-rd") in a flood because of their "wickedness" and "evil" if there was no Law? If there is no sin without Law and grace is found where sin abounds - how/why did G-d destroy all of mankind, how was "wickedness" and "evil" defined or measured, and how/why and on what basis did G-d judge that Noach was "just" and "perfect?"

Bereshit

6:5
And GOD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) saw (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07200&version=kjv) that the wickedness (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07451&version=kjv) of man (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0120&version=kjv) was great (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07227&version=kjv) in the earth, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0776&version=kjv) and that every imagination (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03336&version=kjv) of the thoughts (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04284&version=kjv) of his heart (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03820&version=kjv) was only (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07535&version=kjv) evil (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07451&version=kjv) continually. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03117&version=kjv)

6:6
And it repented (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05162&version=kjv) the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) that he had made (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06213&version=kjv) man (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0120&version=kjv) on the earth, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0776&version=kjv) and it grieved (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06087&version=kjv) him at (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0413&version=kjv) his heart. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03820&version=kjv)

6:7
And the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) said (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0559&version=kjv), I will destroy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04229&version=kjv) man (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0120&version=kjv) whom I have created (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01254&version=kjv) from the face (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06440&version=kjv) of the earth; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0127&version=kjv) both man, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0120&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05704&version=kjv) beast, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0929&version=kjv) and the creeping thing, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07431&version=kjv) and the fowls (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05775&version=kjv) of the air; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08064&version=kjv) for it repenteth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05162&version=kjv) me that I have made (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06213&version=kjv) them

6:8
But Noah (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05146&version=kjv) found (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04672&version=kjv) grace (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02580&version=kjv) in the eyes (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05869&version=kjv) of the L-RD. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv)


6:9
These are the generations (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08435&version=kjv) of Noah: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05146&version=kjv) Noah (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05146&version=kjv) was a just (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06662&version=kjv)man (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0376&version=kjv) and perfect (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08549&version=kjv)in his generations, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01755&version=kjv)and Noah (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05146&version=kjv)walked (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01980&version=kjv) with G-d. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv)

AND - note what Ya'acov says here..... hmmmmm "sin?"

Bereshit
39:7
And it came to pass after (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0310&version=kjv) these things, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01697&version=kjv) that his master's (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0113&version=kjv) wife (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0802&version=kjv) cast (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05375&version=kjv) her eyes (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05869&version=kjv) upon Joseph; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03130&version=kjv) and she said (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0559&version=kjv), Lie (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07901&version=kjv) with me.

39:8
But he refused (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03985&version=kjv), and said (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0559&version=kjv) unto his master's (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0113&version=kjv) wife, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0802&version=kjv) Behold, my master (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0113&version=kjv) wotteth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03045&version=kjv) not what is with me in the house, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01004&version=kjv) and he hath committed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05414&version=kjv) all that he hath (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03426&version=kjv) to my hand; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03027&version=kjv)

39:9
There is none greater (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01419&version=kjv) in this house (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01004&version=kjv) than I; neither (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03808&version=kjv) hath he kept back (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02820&version=kjv) any thing (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03972&version=kjv) from me but thee, because (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0834&version=kjv)thou (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0859&version=kjv) art his wife: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0802&version=kjv) how then can I do (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06213&version=kjv) this great (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01419&version=kjv)wickedness, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07451&version=kjv) and sin (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02398&version=kjv) against G-d? (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv)


Shalom,
Henaynei

Victory to the righteous and courageous of G-d - Khanuah!

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

I agree with you Henaynei.

Although IMAHEBREW is correct to an extent, the Rabbis have taught through the Bavli that the first glimpse of the Noachide laws were seen in Bereishis (Genesis) 2:16-17, where God told Adam not to eat from the tree. In Genesis 9, we read of the Covenant with Noah which solidifies the 7 Noachide laws. The laws were in existence before Sinai, but were re-iterated at Sinai along with the additional laws of Torah.

I think that a big problem that Christians have with the Noachide laws is the fact that one must rely on the Rabbis to learn of them. They are not all obvious in the written Torah, but are spoken of mostly in the oral Torah. It is obvious from the writings of the Rabbis that the Noachide laws existed before time just as the Torah existed before time, since the Noachide laws are part and parcel to the entirety of Torah.

~cleopa

[ShirChadash]

Shalom All,

Before anyone can be held accountable for sin, a law/Torah has to be given.

I agree.


Paul realized that sin was committed BEFORE Sinai, but it was not imputed because there was no law/Torah.

I completely disagree.

Reference Cain and Abel. Genesis 4:3-15



3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.



Who told them to bring sacrifices? If G-d had not been the One Who told them to bring sacrifices, then why would there be such a thing as an "unacceptable" sacrifice at this time? Why was the sacrifice of Abel acceptable and the sacrifice of Cain unacceptable? Scripture does not tell us that there was any difference between the attitudes with which they brought their offering, nor with the quality of their offerings -- the only thing Scripture tells us that is the difference between the two offerings is that Cain's was of the fruit of the ground, and Abel's was of the flock.



6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."



The L-rd asks Cain, "Why are you angry?", essentially asking him, "What right do you have to be angry?!" "If you do well, will you not be accepted?" This indicates to me that Cain already knew what it was to "do well", since G-d expects him to know the difference between doing rightly and not doing rightly. Cain had been instructed by G-d what to bring as an acceptable sacrifice. Cain, in his pride, wanted to bring the fruit of HIS labor, rather than to have to go to his brother to procure an acceptable sacrifice -- he wanted G-d to affirm the work of his own hands and be pleased with the sacrifice he brought, rather than to obey G-d and bring the acceptable sacrifice. He rebelled against G-d's teaching -- His Torah, His "Law".



8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 9 Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11 So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth."



The L-rd said to Cain, "So now you are cursed from the earth." Sounds to me like Cain had sinned, was accountable before the L-rd, and received punishment.

13 And Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14 Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me." 15 And the Lord said to him, "Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him.

:) Cain said... "My punishment is greater than I can bear!" Punishment. If Cain had not sinned, why would G-d punish him? If he had not transgressed any Law, and G-d imputed no accountability to him, then G-d is at best unjust to punish Cain. No. The Law of G-d has never changed -- it is perfect, holy, an immutable part of G-d's eternal identity, not some new set of rules He just "came up with" at Sinai. It was given by His own Word to Adam and Eve while they fellowshipped in the garden with Him. It was taught to their children's children's children. It was Written by G-d on stone, and spoken to the people through Moses at Sinai. Many believe it is already written on our hearts now. One Torah/teaching of G-d, His standards for all who belong to Him. It cannot be removed from G-d or separated from G-d. Abraham himself believed on the Word (The Memra) of G-d. Who is the Memra? Yeshua -- the Living Word. It is often believed that Yeshua, the Memra, is the One Who walked in the garden, fellowshipping with Adam and Eve. Yeshua, the Memra, as the WORD of G-d, gave the Law to Moses and to His people. Yeshua, the Memra, gave us His Spirit (the Spirit of G-d), and said "If you love Me, obey my commandments." What are His commandments? The commandments in the TaNaKh, the only Bible in existence when He spoke this to his followers. The Torah teaching of G-d has never been and cannot be separated from G-d Himself, and His worship.

just my .02

[Henaynei]

I agree with you Henaynei.
Todah cleopa :)

I think that a big problem that Christians have with the Noachide laws is the fact that one must rely on the Rabbis to learn of them. They are not all obvious in the written Torah, but are spoken of mostly in the oral Torah. It is obvious from the writings of the Rabbis that the Noachide laws existed before time just as the Torah existed before time, since the Noachide laws are part and parcel to the entirety of Torah.
~cleopa
I think the biggest problem they have is that the halakah of Ya'acov the Elder of the Yerushalyim Beit Din in Acts would mean that Christians need to actually obey *some* Torah (including some kosher laws) to honor and obey HaShem - this is diametrically opposed to all they have been taught for the last several hundred years and antithetical to the current theology accepted as "orthodox" (i.e. - straight or non-heretical) by the main denominations and the majority of Christians. The spiritual dissonance this causes is more than most can bear and their only alternative is to label it Judaizing and Legalistic in order to justify their rejection.:(

The bright and hopeful spot is that more and more everyday are coming to terms with Truth.:clap:

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

Once again we are in agreement.

Shalom,

~cleopa

[Valid Name]

Greetings All,

I must tell you, that ImAHebrew is a good friend of Mine! We both do have ALMOST the exact same view of this as is possibile.

So far however, what has been told, has contradicted what Paul says about trasngression. As I said before, if you would like to disregard what Paul says, that is not problem by me. I however believe Paul over others (no offense of course). Paul in what seemse various areas does have a good grasp upon what he is talking about.

Now Paul Talks about sin being in the World before Transgressions. What he is teaching is that if there is no law, there is no Transgression. And simply, if there is no transgression, there is no Law. Which of course means, if the Law was Was not Implemented between Adam and Moses, there could be no Transgression, because there must be a Law for there to be a Transgression, and sin could exist without Transgression.

What my point is, if you can RECONCILE this dispute with Romans 5, that is absolutly fine by me. However if you admit that trasngression happened between Adam and Moses (besides to those who were where given the Torah), how did this Happen?

Peace,
Valid Name

[Henaynei]

So far however, what has been told, has contradicted what Paul says about trasngression. As I said before, if you would like to disregard what Paul says, that is not problem by me. I however believe Paul over others (no offense of course). Paul in what seemse various areas does have a good grasp upon what he is talking about. If Paul seems to contradict or void Torah, then Paul is misunderstood (which Kefa says he often is).



Sha'ul (Paul) is an inspired teacher of HaShem's truths, BUT he is building on Torah Truth - without Torah he has nothing of value to say.



If anything in the Ketuvim Natzrim seems to contradict, void or change Torah then we misunderstand the KN and need to return to davening that the Ruakh might enlighten our darkness.



Salvation is not voided or violated or negated or endangered if the entire KN is "disregarded" (which I am NOT recommending, just making a point). Yeshua and salvation are in every book of the T'NaKah. In fact, our salvation stands firm and alone based solely on T'NaKah. It is the source, the foundation and capstone of the salvation of HaShem.



Shalom,

Henaynei

[koilias]

ImAHebrew and ValidName, what Haneyni is pointing out is not to be lightly dismissed. Jewish tradition, in every ancient sect as far as I'm aware, agreed on the fact that Abraham practiced Torah. The Torah was known to him and to many others before Sinai. I don't think that the sect of the Notzrim, Paul either, would have denied Abraham knowledge of Torah. The tradition is very ancient, as the literature attests.

That being said, the understanding that the Torah was known and disseminated before Sinai did cause some controversies among the ancient expositors. Most importantly, what to do about the fact that Reuben wasn't stoned to death for sleeping with his father's wife, as the Torah demands, and more importantly, why wasn't Judah burned alive for consorting with Tamar, his daughter-in-law?? We have evidence that the matter was a topic of hot debate one or 2 centuries before the birth of Yeshua.

The book of Jubilees (c. 150 BCE), which goes to great lengths to show that the Patriarchs were Torah observant in general, says the following on the matter of Reuben and Bilhah (Jubilees ch. 33):

14 For to no man who does so (as Reuben did) in Israel is it permitted to remain alive a single day on the earth, for he
15 is abominable and unclean. And let them not say: to Reuben was granted life and forgiveness after he had lain with his father's concubine, and to her also though she had a husband, and her husband
16 Jacob, his father, was still alive. For until that time there had not been revealed the ordinance and judgment and law in its completeness for all, but in thy days (it has been revealed) as a law of
17 seasons and of days, and an everlasting law for the everlasting generations. And for this law there is no consummation of days, and no atonement for it, but they must both be rooted out in the midst
18 of the nation: on the day whereon they committed it they shall slay them.

In this instance, Jubilees, much like Paul, accepts the existence of Torah before Sinai, but acknowledges that some of the Patriarchs had incomplete knowledge of it and therefore were off the hook in regards to the punishment dictated by the Law. Simply put, Reuben was not yet liable to the curse, but the violation nonetheless stands: he can't be forgiven. In so many words, Reuben is "unclean" without possibility of atonement, later Jacob strips him of his double-portion as a result. However, in the matter of Judah and Tamar, Jubilees presents an explanation that seems mutually contradictory to the approach spelled out in the Reuben case.

In ch. 41 of Jubilees, we read:

23...And Judah acknowledged that the deed which he had done was evil, for he had lain with his daughter-in-law, and he esteemed it hateful in his eyes, and he acknowledged that he had transgressed and gone astray, for he had uncovered the skirt of his son, and he began to lament and to supplicate before the Lord because of his transgression.
24 And we told him in a dream that it was forgiven him because he supplicated earnestly, and lamented,
25 and did not again commit it. And he received forgiveness because he turned from his sin and from his ignorance, for he transgressed greatly before our God; and every one that acts thus, every one who lies with his mother-in-law, let them burn him with fire that he may burn therein, for there is
26 uncleanness and pollution upon them, with fire let them burn them. And do thou command the children of Israel that there be no uncleanness amongst them, for every one who lies with his daughter-in-law or with his mother-in-law hath wrought uncleanness; with fire let them burn the man who has lain with her, and likewise the woman, and He will turn away wrath and punishment
27 from Israel. And unto Judah we said that his two sons had not lain with her, and for this reason
28 his seed was stablished for a second generation, and would not be rooted out. For in singleness of eye he had gone and sought for punishment, namely, according to the judgment of Abraham, which he had commanded his sons, Judah had sought to burn her with fire (!).

Judah is acquitted not for ignorance of Torah, but for two other reasons: (1) he had plead for forgiveness with a humble heart, and (2) when he heard that Tamar had played the harlot, he had honestly attempted to have her executed, thus proving he was zealous for the law (inspite of his spotty righteousness). Thus, Jubilees seems to contradict itself: one can indeed be forgiven as long as you prove that you are contrite and zealous for the Law first.

But, would Yeshua have agreed with this midrash in Jubilees? What was his ruling over the Judah and Tamar case??

Interestingly, we do know what he thought about the matter! Most people are completely unaware about the halakhic controversy between the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Pharisees on this intractible Biblical case. The Essenes believed that the Torah should be followed to the letter without exception, and, indeed, it was an early Essene who had written the book of Jubilees. In their view, all adulterers should be cut off, and there was no possibility for atonement for them (for the Torah provides no recipe for atonement concerning the sins of murder and adultery--that's the purpose of execution!). Apparently, many adulterers who got caught in the act during the second temple period had tried to play the "Reuben and Judah (and David) card" in arguing their cases, pleaing thus for forgiveness. The Essenes, however, showed the transgressors in their communities no mercy as can clearly be discerned by the language of Jubilees (they were the "ultra-orthodox" fundamentalists of their day). Some of the Sadducees and the Pharisees (the "teachers of the Law") knew what a touchy subject this was and how quickly tempers could flare in debating the Judah and Tamar case, particularly between the Essenes and the liberal school of Hillel. Seeking to create rank division among Yeshua's followers, they drag a woman caught in adultery before Yeshua. This was an ingenious ploy, for Yeshua was going to have to establish a position, controversy couldn't be avoided, for the question at stake was whether the punishments meted out by the Torah could be taken seriously or not. Yeshua mentions nothing about the fact that the Judah and Tamar incident had happened before Sinai. Note what he does instead. He points out a fact that the Essenes had seemed to have lightly dismissed, the fact that Judah, the head of the household upon whose word Tamar's life depended, had forgiven Tamar, therefore HaShem forgave Judah! Effectively, what Yeshua was saying was:

"My dear Tsaddukim and Parushim, do you think your are more righteous than Yehudah?? Are you sure there are no skeletons in your closet? How do you know that it was not your teaching or lack of teaching that led this woman to this sin??? If you fling one stone upon this woman, how many stones are waiting to be cast at you before the heavenly court?? Therefore,...he who is without sin cast the first stone!"

Barukh atah, Melekh haMashiaH, Rabbinu haTsadik!!:bow: