question about Mary - the mom :)

[IloveJesusMyFather3:16]

I mean this in all inocency.....Do you believe that Mary is God - and what is your basis on praying to her? Do you believe Jesus died on a cross and is our savior? Do you believe that you cannot talk directly to God? Is there anyway to get a free Catholic Bible. I am so interested.

Oh, one more question: What is the difference between the King James Version Bible and the Catholic Bible?

Sorry so many questions. I'm just kinda confused right now.

[bigsierra]

Do you believe that Mary is God Mary is a human being, a creature, which means a created being. There is infinate distance between being a creature and being God. Short answer. She comes no where close to being God.

what is your basis on praying to her? What does the Bible say the saints in heaven do when one person repents? Her like them are aware of what goes on down here. Hebrews calls them a "great cloud of witnesses." They are praying for us still. The aren't dead but more alive than when here on earth. We can ask them to intercede.

Do you believe Jesus died on a cross and is our savior? Of course. Did you see The Passion of the Christ? It was made by a Catholic.
"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)." -Catholic.com

Do you believe that you cannot talk directly to God? Certainly. We can and do. We talk to all of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Is there anyway to get a free Catholic Bible The KJV Bible is very similar. The only difference really is that some books that had been considered part of the Sacred Scripture were removed in the 1500s and never made it back into the protestant bible. There are 7 Old Testament books that were affected.
Here are a couple that are online:
http://www.scriptours.com/bible/
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/

Feel free to ask any questions you might have. Others may be able to answer your questions better. I am only just now converting from protestantism to Catholicism.

[KennySe]

Welcome to the Catholic area of ChristianForums. :wave:

Before I answer your various questions, please understand that my anger is not intended for you.

I THANK you for asking US about us. So many times,, people ask a non-Catholic about the Catholic Church, and that non-Catholic person gives a wrong answer. Thank you for asking us about us.

I mean this in all inocency.....Do you believe that Mary is God - and what is your basis on praying to her?

Why do you think that we might believe that Mary is God? Did you see this in any official Catholic document, or more likely someone has filled your head with utter lies about the Catholic Church.
If I come across as angry, it is because I am angry: at those who utterly entirely continue to speard lies about the Catholic Church. Whoever told you this should ask forgiveness for bearing false witness.

No. We do not believe that Mary is God.


Our basis on praying to Mary is called the communion of saints. The One Body of Christ, which consists of all believers, is concerned about the one Body. The foot cares about the hand and the knee cares about the elbow. No parts of the One Body are dead.
Some parts are alive in Christ before the very throne of God. These parts still are concerned for the parts that are not in heaven.


Do you believe Jesus died on a cross and is our savior?

Honestly, tell me where you live and who has led you to believe anything else of the Catholic Church.
Have such persons ever looked at the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", which is free for all to see online, for example.
Have such persons ever attended a Catholic Mass, as spectators to hear the proclamation of the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Yes. We believe that Jesus died on the cross and is our Savior.

Moreso, we believe the entirety of the Nicene Creed; which per CF rules is the criteria to be considered a Christian.

We are Christians.Please spread this around. Catholics are Christians.

Do you believe that you cannot talk directly to God?

No. We do not believe that.

We believe and we do talk directly to God. We worship God.

Is there anyway to get a free Catholic Bible. I am so interested.

I don't know of where you can get a free one.

Oh, one more question: What is the difference between the King James Version Bible and the Catholic Bible?

The Catholic Bible is the complete Bible as determined by the CHurch, as early as A.D. 382, when She (the Church) listed the books that would be in the Canon of the Bible, listing the books from Genesis to Revelation.

The King James Bible of A.D. 1611, followed the canon as set forth of Martin Luther of the 1500's, moving some books to a third section of the book and mislabelling that section "apocrypha", then through the years, as the King james Bible was reprinted, that section of the King james Bible was dropped entirely, making the King James Bible that you and i have today, incomplete.

I'm just kinda confused right now.

I apologize if some of my answers may seem harsh. I want to scream sometimes.

Peace be with you, and ask us any questions about us that you may have.

I do recommend you ask in the main Catholic area. www.christainforums.com/f26,
as we are currently in a subforum, which is for the study of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church".

And I invite you to read the "Frequently Asked Questions" thread.
http://www.christianforums.com/t53299

Again, any questions about us, please do ask us. I'll be less "direct and blunt" in the future. :)

[anawim]

Do you believe that Mary is God
No.

- and what is your basis on praying to her?
Same as our basis for asking any member of the Body of Christ to pray with and for us. Those who have gone on to their reward are part of the same Body of Christ when they were on Earth. We are all part of the same body.

Do you believe Jesus died on a cross and is our savior?
Yes.

Do you believe that you cannot talk directly to God?
Yes, I can and do throughout the day.

Is there anyway to get a free Catholic Bible. I am so interested.
Well, you see, there's this guy down at the corner of 49th. and Vine.....

Unfortunately, I don't know where you can get a free one, but you can see one Catholic Edition on the US Bishops web site.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm

Oh, one more question: What is the difference between the King James Version Bible and the Catholic Bible?
There's more than one Catholic Bible. The oldest is the Duoay-Rheims. It dates to the late 16th./early 17th. century and is very similar to the KJV. It's English has been updated a few times since then.

For ecclesiatical purposes the RSV-CE is the one approved by the Vatican. However, the NAB was approved for use at Mass in the US.

Another popular edition is the Jerusalem Bible, but I stay away from the Revised edition because of inclusive language.

There have been three Catholic editions of Protestant Bibles that have been approved for children: The Living Bible (otherwise known as The Way), CEV, and The Good News Bible.

Sorry so many questions. I'm just kinda confused right now.[/QUOTE]
No problem. Ask away.

[IloveJesusMyFather3:16]

Why do you think that we might believe that Mary is God? Did you see this in any official Catholic document, or more likely someone has filled your head with utter lies about the Catholic Church.

I have lived in Tennessee and Mississippi and I have always been told that the Catholic Church is (please don't get mad) based on all man-made traditions and not the bible and that they think they are going to get to heaven by Mary and not by God and that is why they pray to Mary and that they are only about rules and not the grace of God. I'm really glad I DID ask this question (out of bordom and confusion) because I have believed the wrong thing my whole life and always felt sorry for the "mislead" Catholics. Please don't get mad because of my ignorance. I've always been told that the Catholics act like perfect christians at church and behind the scenes - the priest molest the children, people are heavy drinkers, and such.......basically because they were lead by Satan and not God. They have said that either you are lead by God or Satan - and all this Budism, Hinduism, blah blah blah religions are really praying to Satan because God said THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD AND HE IS A JEALOUS GOD and I have always been told that the Catholics are in this same group. I have known three different ex-Catholics who said they were never really allowed to read the bible when they were a Catholic and the nuns were really strict and were real bi*ches and hit them with rulers and were all about rules and not the grace of God, and that it's the only church that doesn't give free bibles.....and it sounds AWFUL!!! It just really makes me wonder why someone who was an actual Catholic would say these things to me. It really makes my brain hurt.....especially because everything you have told me sounds opposite. You know....maybe this person was just involved with "religious" people who weren't practicing what they preached.....or maybe they didn't even preach it in the first place. I suppose there are fake christians in every denomination.

I'll be less "direct and blunt" in the future.
You're fine. I would be upset too if I belonged to a particular denomination and so many people were spreading lies about it. I just hope that the Catholics believe in the grace of God and not so much the rules and traditions.....sounds like they do.

It makes me feel really good to hear these answers and to know that you DO talk directly to God. It takes the pity and anxiety away and replaces it with joy!!!!!!!!!

I saw that you mentioned Martin Luther. Didn't he believe in demons and praying to make them go away (spiritual warfare) and such? Do Catholics agree with this? I guess since we have the same bible, they do.

God Bless you all!!!
Love you!!! :liturgy: tee hee hee Love and Peace ;)

[Archbishop 10-K]

Didn't he believe in demons and praying to make them go away (spiritual warfare) and such? Do Catholics agree with this? I guess since we have the same bible, they do.

Yes. We also believe that some people may become possessed, just as described in the Gospels. If you've ever heard of the movie "The Exorcist", it's about a Catholic priest who exorcises, or drives demons out from people. It is a gift that was given to the Apostles by JEsus and passed down to today's priests through ordination.

[bigsierra]

There are real Christians in Tennessee and Mississippi? :D

Just Kidding. I'm just now converting to Catholicism and was just as surprised as you are now, when I learned the truth.

[Archbishop 10-K]

I have lived in Tennessee and Mississippi and I have always been told that the Catholic Church is (please don't get mad) based on all man-made traditions and not the bible...

I would not be surprised since, to my knowledge, that is part of the "Bible Belt", a region of America that is almost entirely made up of hardcore Protestant Christians. While they may be very good Christians, at least one of their shortcomings is their anti-Catholicism. It has gotten to the point sometimes to where Protestant church groups picket around Catholic churches to keep people from going to Mass.

[AdJesumPerMariam]

I am from Iowa, and now live in Tennessee. There are not as many Catholic Churches here, as up north. Also, as I am making my journey back home to the Catholic Church, you would think I grew horns and a tail! I have had so many 'friends' tell me I am joining a cult. I can't even explain to them what I have learned, because they will not listen. It is really sad.

[CCLMatthew]

I have lived in Tennessee and Mississippi and I have always been told that the Catholic Church is (please don't get mad) based on all man-made traditions and not the bible and that they think they are going to get to heaven by Mary and not by God and that is why they pray to Mary and that they are only about rules and not the grace of God. I'm really glad I DID ask this question (out of bordom and confusion) because I have believed the wrong thing my whole life and always felt sorry for the "mislead" Catholics. Please don't get mad because of my ignorance. I've always been told that the Catholics act like perfect christians at church and behind the scenes - the priest molest the children, people are heavy drinkers, and such.......basically because they were lead by Satan and not God. They have said that either you are lead by God or Satan - and all this Budism, Hinduism, blah blah blah religions are really praying to Satan because God said THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD AND HE IS A JEALOUS GOD and I have always been told that the Catholics are in this same group. I have known three different ex-Catholics who said they were never really allowed to read the bible when they were a Catholic and the nuns were really strict and were real bi*ches and hit them with rulers and were all about rules and not the grace of God, and that it's the only church that doesn't give free bibles.....and it sounds AWFUL!!! It just really makes me wonder why someone who was an actual Catholic would say these things to me. It really makes my brain hurt.....especially because everything you have told me sounds opposite. You know....maybe this person was just involved with "religious" people who weren't practicing what they preached.....or maybe they didn't even preach it in the first place. I suppose there are fake christians in every denomination.

AAAAAAAHHHHH! Sorry, now that I got that out of my system I feel much better. One thing I have always found is that protestant Churches who believe anything always have an ex-catholic (poor uniformed authority), believe we are all poor in bondage fools and think we are unbiblical and do all kinds of what I (as a Catholic) would call silly or evil stuff.

Servant of God Fulton J Sheen stated that there are probably only a dozen people who hate the Catholic Church. The rest just hate it for what they think it is. I have found this to be very true. I have found maybe one person to argue against Catholicism that truly understands it. The rest come to understand it and convert.:amen:

Under the Mercy,
Matthew

[IloveJesusMyFather3:16]

Sorry if I upset you. I'd be upset too! Wow, what a Revelation!!!

I hate to sound stupid but what is the bible belt? ....and are they all Protestant churches? ....and what is Protestant churches? All I know is everytime I go to a church they seem to mess my head up...that is wy I only believe the bible. ha ha ha. I go to church but I certanly don't listen to everything they say; I have been pretty mest up by doing that before. ugh.

It has gotten to the point sometimes to where Protestant church groups picket around Catholic churches to keep people from going to Mass

Whoa!!! That is insane! I can't believe that!!!

:priest: -he he

[JJM]

The "Bible Belt" is a slang term used for a geographical region in the South and the midsection of the United States that has large groups of fundamentalist Christians

A protestant church is church that isn't Catholic or Orthodox becuase they Protest the authority of the Pope

[IloveJesusMyFather3:16]

Uhhh....... (from this Catholic posting: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=9117733#post9117733)


What I belived is that if you realize that the Catholic church is the true church and you refuse to enter the church then you will go to hell because you know what Christ wants and you refuse to do it. thus you are regecting Jesus and let's face it that's why people Go to hell Because they reject Jesus. That doesn't mean that all people who aren't catholic go to hell.

I was understanding everything until this was said. Now I'm kinda weirded out. Hmmmm....... :eek:

[Protoevangel]

Uhhh....... (from this Catholic posting: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=9117733#post9117733)




I was understanding everything until this was said. Now I'm kinda weirded out. Hmmmm....... :eek:The Catholic Church believes it is the true church, and that all other churches are in error to varying degrees. They believe that people of these other Christian churches are still able to get to heaven, though. The quote you presented reflects that is someone knows the Catholic Church is the One True Church, but still rejects it, then they are in effect rejecting Christ Himself.

It is logical. For instance, if someone believed or "knew" that the Baptist church was the One True Church, yet still rejected it, woult that person not be rejecting Christ Himself, at least in their own mind?

[thereselittleflower]

Uhhh....... (from this Catholic posting: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=9117733#post9117733)




I was understanding everything until this was said. Now I'm kinda weirded out. Hmmmm....... :eek:
Hi IloveJesusMyFather3:16 !

Dan pretty much clarified it . . . you have to KNOW and knowingly reject the truth. You would have to turn your back on God.

4 years ago I started the process of converting form 30 years as a protestant to Catholicism. Many of the same "ideas" you have exressed had been filtered into my thinking about Catholicism . . .as you are learning, these "ideas" regarding Catholicism are simply myths.

If I can, I encourage you to continue asking us and seeking the truth . . it is quite amazing actually. :)

But just be prepared to encounter more things that will "wierd you out" until you understand what is meant. When you come from the perspective you have been taught to be true, there are things that you will discover about the Catholic faith that will cause you to have this kind of reaction . . simply because of the perspective you are viewing them from . .

It is much like standing outside of a Catholic Church in broad daylight looking at the stained glass windows . . they don't look very pretty, in fact they may look downright ugly, and very confusing as to what they are trying to depict . .. But come inside and look at them with the bright sunlight illuminating them, and their beauty shines forth and it is easy to see what they are trying to tell us.

The perspective you are coming from will color how you understand things like this . .. If I can make a suggestion, when you find yourself in this situation, put your reaction on the shelf, and what caused that reaction and come and talk to us about it . .. Once you have changed your perspective, it is like pieces of a puzzle falling into place.


As for a free Catholic bible .. I just recently saw a bunch of them . . but for the life of me I can't remember where! If I can locate them, I will let you know. :)


Peace in Him!

[IloveJesusMyFather3:16]

How can a church save you?? That's stupid. ...sorry. How are you rejecting Christ by not going to a certain church. Okay, that's it. I'm not coming back here anymore. Goodbye.

[Protoevangel]

How can a church save you?? That's stupid. ...sorry. How are you rejecting Christ by not going to a certain church. Okay, that's it. I'm not coming back here anymore. Goodbye.These nice people have been attempting to explain their position to you, and very politely, I might add. Whether you ever agree with them or not, just walking away is not conducive to learning. Not to mention, the manner in whjich you are doing it is extremely rude.

[thereselittleflower]

How can a church save you?? That's stupid. ...sorry. How are you rejecting Christ by not going to a certain church. Okay, that's it. I'm not coming back here anymore. Goodbye.Hi ILoveJesusMyFather3:16

I know this came up in 2 threads and you said you were not coming back . .. but I hope you do and I wanted you to consider something . .

It is very easy coming from a Protestant mindset to misunderstand the words a Catholic may use . .and what you hear is not the same thing intended by what was said . .

Consider this . . .are we saved individually or corporately?

What I mean by this is, are we saved together as part of the Body of Christ or by ourselves outside the Body of Christ?

Can we be saved if we are not part of the Body of Christ?


The Body of Christ is His Church . . Can anyone be saved if we are not a part of His Body, His Church?


Do you begin to see what we mean when we say the Church is necessary for salvation?


When it comes to those who are not FORMALLY a part of the Catholic Church, yet are part of the Body of Christ, we see them as being a part of the Catholic Church in an informal manner . . but we cannot look at someone and say they for sure are, even informally, a part of this Church for only God knows the heart, so we say that only God knows this. When one Formally joins themselves to the Catholic Church then we know they have become part of the Church.

Those who are formally a part of the Church are known to the Church . .. those who are informally a part of the Church are known to God; whether they see themselves as being part of the Catholic Church or is really immaterial . .


We hope and trust that those who claim the name of Christ outside of the Catholic Church truly do belong to Him . . but since we do not read hearts, we leave that for God to judge.


But the Body of Christ is just as important to ones salvation as the Head which is Christ . . . . The Church is necessary otherwise the Head would be bodiless and we would not be able to be joined to Christ who is the Head. :)


Peace in Him!

[Jesus my Light]

I just want to point out in the last thread above I dunno if anyone will get this message casue I am unsure how forums actually work. U say That everyone has to be apart of the catholic church to be saved.
This is a disgraceful comment I believe. Can u please direct me in a normal bible were Jesus says "You must go to a "CATHOLIC" church to be saved.
I belive it says. "If you recieve chirst into your life and belive in him and repent ur sins u will trully be saved." Now I am sorry that isn;t word for word I am very interested in learning more about the catholics and catholic church but atfer that comment I do not know if I wanna here any more about u becasue U sound very condesending and seem to be condeming non-Catholic

[EllenMoran]

May I recommend that you read Therese's post again before deciding to walk away based on not having a full understanding of what was being said? She pretty clearly articulates the position that it isn't attending a Catholic church that delivers salvation -- and does it better than I could, which is why I am recommending a re-read of her post rather than restating it myself. Also, this post of Skripper's may be helpful for you. http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1896665&postcount=94

[PreacherFergy]

Has no one mentioned the alarming quote from Ligouri? When he said that when Mary commands something, all things obey, even God!?
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Acts 4:12

[InnerPhyre]

Can u please direct me in a normal bible were Jesus says "You must go to a "CATHOLIC" church to be saved.

Can you please direct me to where a Catholic actually said this? I believe thereselittleflower just said that those who are not a part of the Catholic Church formally through no fault of their own, yet are Christians, are still part of the Body of Christ.

[Gwynne]

Can you please direct me to where a Catholic actually said this? I believe thereselittleflower just said that those who are not a part of the Catholic Church formally through no fault of their own, yet are Christians, are still part of the Body of Christ.

And that covers probably a good majority of Christians. Fault of your own would be BELIEVING that the Catholic church is the one true church and STILL denying it. ((I personally am struggling with that one. I can understand the arguments for it, but I also understand the arguments against it and I'm just really trying to figure it out...)) It's sort of like the one unforgivable sin is KNOWING that Jesus is the WAY and STILL refusing to follow him.

[Freedom&Light]

((I personally am struggling with that one. I can understand the arguments for it, but I also understand the arguments against it and I'm just really trying to figure it out...))

Same here. :hug: But I love this board for answers! :)

[Gwynne]

Same here. :hug: But I love this board for answers! :)

Yup :D I'd much rather go to a bunch of Catholics for answers about Catholicism than trust what the Pentecostal pastor down the street says about them (not good.....)

[CrystalBrooke]

and we are always very grateful when ppl come and ask US questions instead of believing what other ppl say.

[thereselittleflower]

and we are always very grateful when ppl come and ask US questions instead of believing what other ppl say.
Ditto! :)


Peace in Him!

[St. Amadeus II]

Say I want to become a RC, but I will NOT accept that Mary was a perpetual virgin, short of a divine revelation, lol. Will I be excommunicated?

[Gwynne]

Say I want to become a RC, but I will NOT accept that Mary was a perpetual virgin, short of a divine revelation, lol. Will I be excommunicated?

No, you just won't become RC until you accept it. But the RCIA, the program that you need to go through to become Catholic is so thorough that if you haven't accepted such a thing as Mary's perpetual virginity by the end of it, then there are probably a few other things you won't have accepted either and you won't want to become RC.

[JJM]

Say I want to become a RC, but I will NOT accept that Mary was a perpetual virgin, short of a divine revelation, lol. Will I be excommunicated?

In a sense the answer to your question is yes because by not excepting any teaching of the church you are excommunicating yourself. but you wouldn't be anymore excommunicated than you are now. However you probably won't be formally excommunicated because you aren't a major figure on the world scene. (Or are you ;) )

[Dawn Marie]

You're fine. I would be upset too if I belonged to a particular denomination and so many people were spreading lies about it. I just hope that the Catholics believe in the grace of God and not so much the rules and traditions.....sounds like they do. Yep, they certainly do. :) But as in any denomination or religion, there are some people who have the wrong idea, and/or do exactly what you said about rules and traditions.

While tradition can be a good thing, I found there are some people at my church who base everything around it. The other day I stayed with my mother after Mass to pray, and the people who stayed with us prayed out loud, very quickly like they were just reading useless words and didn't mean what they were saying. It's like they think just because you read the words, you are praying. But you have to mean what you are saying... and they didn't seem like they did. I mean, I don't know them personally... but I was really put off. And apparently there are lots of Catholics like this in our church. :(

I don't know if what I'm saying even makes sense. I guess my point is that there are 'slackers' (excuse that word, I can't think of a better one) in every denomination.

[><>InHisName<><]

I mean this in all inocency.....Do you believe that Mary is God - and what is your basis on praying to her? Do you believe Jesus died on a cross and is our savior? Do you believe that you cannot talk directly to God?
Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD. we pray to her because she is in Heaven, and she can perfect our prayers to her Son. Besides, Jesus does what His Mother asks Him to do....
Jesus is definitely our SAVIOR!!!!!!! Catholics believe in His death, which was the greatest gift of love anyone ever gave.
We talk directly to God all the time. Do you ask friends to pray for you? if we can ask for prayers from the living, why not the dead? those in Heaven are closer to God then we are, so our prayers, plus those of the Saints are very powerful!!
:crosseo:

[draconus71]

you explained that very well I applaud your knowledge of your faith. Its good to see others out there that do the research

[MrZoom]

Has no one mentioned the alarming quote from Ligouri? When he said that when Mary commands something, all things obey, even God!?
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Acts 4:12

Catholic Apologist, Dave Armstrong corrects some misunderstandings and distortions of Liguori (please note the correct spelling!) in this article:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ54.HTM

[masuwerte]

No, you just won't become RC until you accept it. But the RCIA, the program that you need to go through to become Catholic is so thorough that if you haven't accepted such a thing as Mary's perpetual virginity by the end of it, then there are probably a few other things you won't have accepted either and you won't want to become RC.That's not necessarily so, either. I went through RCIA recently and was told nothing about Mary's sinlessness, assumption into heaven or the proposed fifth Marian dogma. They weren't even in our textbook. I found out about them only after being taken into the Church.

[thereselittleflower]

That's not necessarily so, either. I went through RCIA recently and was told nothing about Mary's sinlessness, assumption into heaven or the proposed fifth Marian dogma. They weren't even in our textbook. I found out about them only after being taken into the Church.I am sorry the RCIA process you went through was lacking . .however, a local problem is not indicative of what happens in the Church over all .

I am really wondering how the process would have lacked something basic like this . . but I am sorry you experienced this. . .

However, what you should have been taught and accepted is that the Church teachings are trustworthy . .

We are not asked to personally approve every teaching of the Church . . we are asked if we can take a broaer view, and TRUST that the Holy Spirit is protecting the Church from teaching error . .

One really has to come to that understanding and faith to come into the Church, and if one does so, then teachings such as Mary's sinlessness, even though one may not personally understand it, present no problems as matters of faith, as we are able to trust that the Holy Spirit, protecting the Church from formally declaring error as truth, and so, can trust with childlike faith that it is true . .

There must be that trust . . that faith . . and that is something that most definitely should have been covered and which you should have been required to profess in faith during the Mass in which you were taken into the Church . .

Did that not happen either?

If you did make that profession of faith, to believe all that the Church teaches, then what happened regarding the issues of Mary that are taught formally by the Church?


Peace in Him!




Peace in Him!

[masuwerte]

Yeah, the experience seems strange now, and I don't feel good about it. From the postings at oncecatholic.org, it seems that many RCIA programs are deficient. I said at the Easter Vigil, as instructed that day, "I believe and profess all that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches to be true." When I asked about the Assumption a few weeks later, I was told that I must believe it because of my Profession of Faith. I try not to let pride interfere with worshipping God, I try not to let denominational differences get in the way, but I can't help but feel that I was tricked.

[thereselittleflower]

Yeah, the experience seems strange now, and I don't feel good about it. From the postings at oncecatholic.org, it seems that many RCIA programs are deficient. I said at the Easter Vigil, as instructed that day, "I believe and profess all that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches to be true." When I asked about the Assumption a few weeks later, I was told that I must believe it because of my Profession of Faith. I try not to let pride interfere with worshipping God, I try not to let denominational differences get in the way, but I can't help but feel that I was tricked.
I am really sorry . . and I can understand how you must have felt . .


Is the assumption of Mary something that you can't even accept as possible, and so out right reject?

Or is it something you just can't be 100 % sure of on a personal level?



Do you believe the Church can err in its teachings?


Peace in Him!

[masuwerte]

Certainly Mary COULD have been assumed bodily into heaven, and at the least she is in heaven as a saint. All generations shall call her blessed. I'm trying to keep an open mind about the Church's Mariology.

And yes, I believe that the Church, inspired as it is by the Holy Ghost, is composed of fallible human beings and capable of making a mistake.

So I'm still exploring my conscience, to see if I can be part of the Church or not.

[thereselittleflower]

Certainly Mary COULD have been assumed bodily into heaven, and at the least she is in heaven as a saint. All generations shall call her blessed. I'm trying to keep an open mind about the Church's Mariology.

And yes, I believe that the Church, inspired as it is by the Holy Ghost, is composed of fallible human beings and capable of making a mistake.

So I'm still exploring my conscience, to see if I can be part of the Church or not.It is good you are doing this. :) We don't just blindly accept the teaching of the Church . . there must be an inner conviction that the Church is right . .

Now . . I am going to get fairly direct with what I am going to say next:


But above that, there is a higher level of conviction . . that the Church cannot err in matter of faith and morals . . for if it can, then, and here I am going to be very bold, you can trust nothing of Chrsitianity . . not one thing . .

For it is the Church who wrote the New Testament, and gave you the bible choosing between what was scripture and what was not . .

If the Church can err in matters of faith and morals, then it could have erred in the writing of the New Testament, and in the colleciting of the canonical books . .

If the Church can err in matters of faith and morals, how do you know that what you have in your hand called the bible is really the inspired scriptures?

How do you know the Gospel of Thomas shouldn't be there? How do you know the letter of James should be there? How do you know Acts is accurate and inspired?

How do you know that the Church did not err when She put the scriptures together?

How do you know the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed true? How do you know the Church did not err when it declared it?

How do you know that Jesus really rose from the dead? Perhaps this is a myth and the Church erred in believing in it?


If the Church, made up of individuals, however fallible, can err collectively when teaching on matters of faith and morals, How do you know anything that you believe is in fact true?


We can then have no assurance that the Christian faith is indeed true .

Unless . . . .. there is an infallible teacher . .


If there is no infallible teacher, then there is no Christianity . .

For then, we can have no idea if what we believe is even true . .



Do you see the delima?


Protestant Chrsitianity is based on certain assumptions . . certain assumptions they cannot prove true without admitting that the Catholic Church is an infallible teacher . . for the Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church and received its teachings directly from the Apostles.

If the Church can err now, then one has to admit that the Church carrying forward apostolic teaching could have also erred . . right from the beginning.


Do you think that the Church would have canonized scripture that did not support what the Church taught and believed as true?

So if the Church can err, and thus could have erred then, what assurance do you have?



But now look at it in this light . .

Jesus made certain promises . .



He promised to build the Church on Peter . .

He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.

He promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church, through the Apostles into ALL TRUTH.

Through Paul the Holy Spirit has firmly declared that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.



If the Church was NOT led into all truth through the Aposltes . . then Christ liled . . .

If the Church WAS led into all truth, but then later erred in its teachings, the Christ also lied, for the Gates of Hell would have then prevailed against the Church . .

Satan is a liar and the father of lies . . error is a lie, a falsehood is diametrially opposed to what is true . .


Follow me a little further in this line of reasoning:


If the Church has erred, then the Church has believed and taught a lie . . .

If the Church has believed and taught a lie, then it is no longer the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth and the bible is false.

IF the Church is not longer the Pillar and Foundation of the truth, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church, bringing its lies and falsehood into the Church.

If the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church then Jesus lied, Chrsitianity is a sham, and we are most to be pitied . .



Let's take it a little further . .


If the Church CAN err . . then it has ceased to be the pillar and foundation of the truth . . .




Let me ask you this. ..


How can the pillar and foundation of the truth err?


IF the bible is true, then the Church, founded by Christ and His apostles, IS the Pillar and Foundation of the truth . .


That Church was founded on Peter . . .

That Church was at the beginning, and has continued to be for 2000 years, the Catholic Church . . .

The Catholic Church continues to be built on Peter . . continues to be the Pillar and Foundation of truth . . .


If not, then Hell has won . . . .


Do you see the delima you have presented to yourself if you believe the Church can err?

If the Church can err, then the scriptures are false . . and Christ's promises are false . .


It gets really basic here . .


This is really where the tire meets the road . .


Can you trust what the scriptures say?

That the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the truth?
That the Holy Spirit led the Apostles, and thus the Church into ALL TRUTH. . (which by nature excludes error) ?

Do you believe that the Gates of Hell will NEVER prevail against the Church?



If so . . then you can trust that in all matters of faith and morals the Church has not now erred or has ever erred in its teachings or ever will err . . you can approach this all with a simple childlike faith and by faith believe what the mind has not yet understood or even fully accepted.


Can you assent to the fact that it is the Church's teaching that Mary was assumed into heaven?


Just finding it hard to believe does not put you in a position of rejecting the Church . .. :)

There are different levels of rejection of the truth and thus of the Church . . these are found in the CCC 2089


There is first Incredulity . . this is a neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to believe . .

This is very important to understand. You are not separated from the Catholic Church because you don't understanding something or find it hard to believe . . otherwise the Catholic Church would loose most of its members overnight.

The quesiton here is a matter of will . . .

Are you willing to believe that Mary was assumed into heaven if it is indeed true?

From what you have said above, I believe you are! :)

Your inabliity to believe right now does not separate you from full communion with the Catholic Church . ..

You have not willfully refused to believe it . .


Do you see this?


You are not a heretic . . Heresy is the OBSTINATE refusal to believe. .


You are having problem with a doctrine .. but you are trying to understand it and are willing to give full assent of mind and will if indeed true . . this is NOT obstinate refusal to believe!!

There is nothing in your difficulties that separates you from full communion with the Church.

Notice the word Obstinate again . . . this means over a long periood of time . . you came into the Church and a short while later were confronted with this . . that was not a long period of time


I don't know who told you what you were told and how that was conveyed to you . . . but I am concerned that this was not conveyed properly.

The question is . . . are you WILLFULLY or OBSTINATELY refusing to believe this is true?

If you are not, then you have not rejected this teaching . . having difficulty is a human experience . . The Church does not penalize you for this or say you are less a Catholic for this.


If I can at all encourage you, please return to the Church and receive the Sacraments . .. in so doing you allow great Grace to be infused into your life and this in turn gives Grace for understanding and faith . ..


Do not separate yourself like this . . . you were not lied to or deceived regarding what the Church teaches . . something may have been neglected, but the fact that you were not able to come to a complete assent to this doctrine before coming into the Church really does not represent the problem it seems to you right now to represent. . .

I think this requirement for belief and what it means and does not mean was not fully explained to you . . The responsibility for this does not lie with you, but with those teaching and insructing you.


The Assumption of Mary, while dogma, is not a core dogma like the Eucharist.

We just came into the Church this last Easter . . while I spent 3 years throughly investigating the Cahtolic faith, my husband had not . . and he has difficulty with the CORE DOGMA of the Eucharist and the Real Presence. . .

Our priest has been very good in assuring him that this does not present a problem, for my husband is desiring to understand and believe fully . . Just as you are . .


If my husband can be in right standing and full communion with the Church having difficulty over the Eucharist, you most certainly can be with the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary . .


Do you see this?

Do not accept the judgemental nature of others . .


You cannot dissent from the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary . .for that would be willful . . . you can say, I don't know if I can believe it fully right now . . I acknowledge that it could be so, and I am willing to let God lead me into a full understanding of this doctrine and be in full communion with the Church.


It is a matter of the heart . . not a matter of the mind . .

God does not penalize you if you have trouble accepting something . . He says Come unto me . .


Have you spoken at length with your priest about this? I mean more than just a brief conversation?

What did he have to say?


If you have not done so yet, may I encourage you with all my heart to do so!

Do not let this fairly small matter (and really it is fairly small in the larger scheme of things) prevent you from receiving all you can from the Church . . Grace abounds within the Church . . Divine Sanctifying Grace :)

Do not keep yourself form it any longer than necessary! :)



Peace in Him!

[masuwerte]

Thank you for your reply. You've put a lot of effort into it. We're not allowed to debate here, are we? But thank you.

[thereselittleflower]

Thank you for your reply. You've put a lot of effort into it. We're not allowed to debate here, are we? But thank you.
No . .but we can talk :)


Peace in Him!