Sex before, with or after marriage?

[Droobie]

In today's society, it seems that sex outside of marriage is common. Take many of the 'teen' movies produced. Many depict sex outside the bounds of marriage as commonplace. Some movies have sex outside of marriage as the actual topic of the movie. What are your thoughts?

[Dawn Marie]

I think it's fine... as long as it's not with more than one peron.

[jesus_freak_for_life]

well then you'd be wrong and need to read your Bible.

[King John]

I don't think it's moral per se, but define "marriage"....

[Dawn Marie]

well then you'd be wrong and need to read your Bible. LOL

[msjones21]

The Bible says we are to abide by the laws of the land and the laws of the land define marriage as the legal union between one man and one woman. Unless of course the state recognizes common law marriage after so many years, but that's a cop-out. WHy live together for ten years but not get married? Where's the commitment?

[Eleana]

Our body is a temple for the Holy Spirit. I'm going to keep it holy and clean.

[Konnie]

No!

[DXRocker73]

No, it's not ok. Sex is sacred and should be kept to a loving marriage.

[caley]

I put that I'm not sure, but to be honest, I think it's more of a personal decision than anything. I used to be really really anti-premarital sex, but I'm not 100% convinced anymore.

[JillLars]

I didn't answer the poll, I agree with what dawn marie said, and I also think its important to define marriage. I don't think that casual sex is ok, and it seems that is what the media portrays most of the time, friends sleeping with friends, sleeping with your date on the first or second date (I couldn't imagine ever sleeping with someone I've only been out with two times). I think that sex is meant to be shared with one person, and one person only.

[Neenie]

.

[Bonhoffer]

I think the main thing is if your in a committed loving relationship which is like a marriage. Obviously being married is better and I am personally going to wait (sex doesnt really bother me that much), but as long as you are not sleeping around or behaving purely out of carnal love then God wont be too displeased.

[Bevlina]

In today's society, it seems that sex outside of marriage is common. Take many of the 'teen' movies produced. Many depict sex outside the bounds of marriage as commonplace. Some movies have sex outside of marriage as the actual topic of the movie. What are your thoughts?No way Droobie. It's not on cobber.

[JillLars]

just out of curiousity what does "it's not on cobber" mean?

[Bevlina]

WHOOPS!!!!...Good job I checked my email before going to bed.
Australian talking to Australian Jill. Sorry...I spoke pure Aussie there!!!
"it's not on cobber" means...."it's not the right thing to do friend". Sorry about that. I forgot for a second & spoke as an Australian does to an Australian. Droobie is an Australian. So am I.

[Lizquests]

I put that it would be wrong... Clearly stated in the Bible. I know that it is God's word, but I still have a problem with not doing it before marriage. I believe in being intimate before the marriage (or if it is a long term relationship).

But that is me.

[DMX]

From a Biblical point of view, the issue is not even worth discussing.

[Eleana]

I think sex before marriage is O.K if you are going to be them long term, you need to know what the person is like before you marry them.

erm....so is that mean you're going to use sex to test whether he is the right one for you to marry? :confused:

What if you will be having 10 relationships before you really meet the right one?

no offense...

[Bob Moore]

The great myth of our day is that sex is merely another recreation. That is, of course, until the consequences arrive.

[ALL4J3SUS]

LOL

Yea, I wouldn't laugh tho

[Neenie]

.

[coolangel]

it's not right but i was backslidding so i sliped and now i got a consiquince out of it and now i am a single parent trying to raise a little girl who i adore very much and it's hard trying to do it on my own so that's another reason u should wait till marrige

[Bevlina]

Oh my God. Where is Love.

With love comes respect. A person who truly loves another person would not even consider jeopodising a girl's future nor her name let alone leave her alone to rear a little baby. Yet, it's a way of the world today isn't it?

Love versus lust.

[heavenliejediofthebeach]

i of course promised god i would wait till marriage...i have a bf i luv verie much and vice versa.....i so want to make luv with him but i will wait like i said...but i probablie wont ever get to cuz he'll probablie find sumone better than crappie ol me :sigh: :(

[Bevlina]

I think sex before marriage is O.K if you are going to be them long term, you need to know what the person is like before you marry them.
Like as in character Janine.......not in bed. The day may come when they are working out how to fix adverse affects in the human body caused by taking a 'pill'.

[Bevlina]

i of course promised god i would wait till marriage...i have a bf i luv verie much and vice versa.....i so want to make luv with him but i will wait like i said...but i probablie wont ever get to cuz he'll probablie find sumone better than crappie ol me :sigh: :(
HEAVENLIE!!!! Don't you ever dare say a thing like that about yourself! You are a person and you are a beautiful person! I'll have a talk to you on I.M. my Pet!
He loves you! He loves you for what you are and for who you are! For just being YOU. And, believe me, you ARE special!:hug:

[bethlehemONE]

one of the main reasons why we are on the brink of social collapse here in the UK is down to loads of sex outside of marriage and commitment. Gods laws are common sense laws, if you have loads of sex outside marriage you will create loads of unwanted children. What we see now are mothers as young as 13 having kids and bringing them up in a moral/social void. The more we refuse to acknowledge Gods laws on pre-marital sex the more we will continue to breed an under-class in our society.

[mrslinky]

It's not realistic. Especially when you're a pathetic thirty something like me.

[sOuLifieD]

Absolutely no. A marriage is supposed to be an example of Christ's relationship with the Church...His Bride...and God designed sex for marriage. I believe that pre-marital sex is like being a lukewarm Christian. Saying you're committed to God, but not wanting to go ALL the way with it...trying to partake in the goodness of having an intimate relationship with God, but not going "too deep" and surrendering all of yourself to Him.
Why not just get married? In the Bible, Paul says that because of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. What other sexual immorality is it besides premarital sex? Getting married doesn't save you from adultery, or homosexuality, it saves you from premarital sex with your spouse.

That's my opinion, but anyway, no, I believe sex before marriage is absolutely wrong.

[Bevlina]

AND...the human body is the temple of God. Why should a woman allow a man to defile it.

[daydreamergurl15]

I'm 100% positive that sex should be enjoyed by a man and a woman who are married. I believe that it is one of the most precious gifts you could ever give to your partner. Knowing that they have not gotten sloppy seconds. Also, God tells us do not be conformed but transformed by the renewing of your minds and it takes a strong will person to actually follow God's advice and say no to sex until marriage. Look at what sex had done now; given ppl STD'S, pregnancy's (here comes abortions), and hurt more than help a relationship and God knew it would that is probably why He told us to wait until we get married and have sex only with each other.

[Roman Soldier]

well then you'd be wrong and need to read your Bible.

Which verses? I've never been shown a single verse which commands that people wait until marriage to engage in intercourse. I've been given vague passages, but no firm evidence that pre-marital sex is against Christianity.

[project]

Captain Jackson

lets put it this way What Would Jesus Say - forget the bible forget the verses you haven't read , if you had to ask God to his face "did you think sex before marriage is ok ?" what do you think he would say?

[creeb]

just thought i'd point out once more that it aint ok and it lessens the length of the relationship thats not me just saying so it an actual statistic check it out if u dont believe me

[Roman Soldier]

Captain Jackson

lets put it this way What Would Jesus Say - forget the bible forget the verses you haven't read , if you had to ask God to his face "did you think sex before marriage is ok ?" what do you think he would say?

Since God appears to have multiple personality disorder, I have to ask which form of God I'd be talking to.

Many Christians claim that actions are sins without a Biblical basis for thinking such, especially with respect to sexuality and birth control issues.

[project]

all fall short

[maka_jun]

Its fine! Geeez guys...its purely personal. Be a little realistic!

[cindylou]

I think this is definitely something that Christians need to talk much more about. It has become fairly clear that many "Christians" believe having sex before marriage is OK if it is a long term relationship and many "Christians" even live together for a while before they get married. It seems they find this very modern and acceptable. They argue that in this time of so much divorce, a trial marriage is acceptable. So let's get to the point. Scripture is clear that any sex outside of marriage is immoral. Sex is a gift given to married couples only. Basically, if you are not ready for marriage, you are not ready for sex. However, our society has helped perpertuate the myth that sex is a right and should be experienced by all. Now with so many birth control options, who wouldn't have a sexual relationship with a long term mate? A Christian wouldn't. Quite simply, having sex outside of marriage is not our choice. God choose sex to be a by product of marriage. If we are Christians, then we do what God asks us to do. He has asked us all, young and old, to abstain from sexual relations of all kinds (including oral sex) until marriage. Not my choice, but God's

[reigning_fire]

Amen cindylou

[scigirl]

Hello everyone,

I'm trying to figure out which Biblical verse most clearly states why sex outside of a holy marriage between a man and a woman is wrong.

I've narrowed it down to these four passages:

Genesis 38:6-10
Numbers 31:1-18
Exodus 21:4
Deuteronomy 22: 28-29

Thanks in advance for your help,

scigirl

[Geoff_Conn]

The answer is simple no and I can't believe some people think otherwise.

[Echoes Peak]

Absolutely no. A marriage is supposed to be an example of Christ's relationship with the Church...His Bride...and God designed sex for marriage. I believe that pre-marital sex is like being a lukewarm Christian. Saying you're committed to God, but not wanting to go ALL the way with it...trying to partake in the goodness of having an intimate relationship with God, but not going "too deep" and surrendering all of yourself to Him.
Why not just get married? In the Bible, Paul says that because of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. What other sexual immorality is it besides premarital sex? Getting married doesn't save you from adultery, or homosexuality, it saves you from premarital sex with your spouse.

That's my opinion, but anyway, no, I believe sex before marriage is absolutely wrong.:clap:

[Mr.Pious]

Maybe not through a biblical point of view. But sex between to consenting people is fine. As long as they are willing to except the conciquences that can occur.

[Neenie]

My bottom line on any sexuality is that love is the most important thing. That love is it. Any way people want to love each other is OK by me. That's different from abuse. I found out through reading forums that many Christians have had sex before marriage anyway, Yet are the same one's trying to stop other's doing it saying it's "immoral". It makes me angry when I see Christians making a big fuss and bashing on about sexual immorality, but are nearly silent on key issues such as institutional greed, feeding the poor, and social justice, and they are they issues that was central to Christ's ministry, more than sexual immorality.

[Geoff_Conn]

My bottom line on any sexuality is that love is the most important thing. That love is it. Any way people want to love each other is OK by me. That's different from abuse. I found out through reading forums that many Christians have had sex before marriage anyway, Yet are the same one's trying to stop other's doing it saying it's "immoral". It makes me angry when I see Christians making a big fuss and bashing on about sexual immorality, but are nearly silent on key issues such as institutional greed, feeding the poor, and social justice, and they are they issues that was central to Christ's ministry, more than sexual immorality.

Just cause other Christains have had sex before marriage, does'nt make it all right. And whaty is the big fuss? :( If the word of God goes against it, then we should'nt be doing it. As a Christain we should'nt lust after the flesh.

[Roman Soldier]

Genesis 38:6-10
Numbers 31:1-18
Exodus 21:4
Deuteronomy 22: 28-29

scigirl

I'll read through these verses later. They're all from the Old Testament, and there are several commandments in the OT that Christians today don't follow. There are probably more verses in the Bible condemning working on the Sabbath than there is about pre-marital sex.

[scigirl]

Ok Captain.

Hmm another question I have: Someone told me once that there was no such thing as pre-marital sex in the Bible because girls were married off as soon as they started menstruation. So if this is true - isn't it fair to say that the Bible really honestly *couldn't* give us advice on the subject? If women married at 13, then there was no possibility to even have premarital sex.

That being said, the thought of carrying out the actual Biblical tradition is a bit icky isn't it? Who here would marry off their 13-year-old daughter?

scigirl

[Neenie]

There're probably more verses in the Bible condemning working on the Sabbath than there is about pre-marital sex.

There are a lot of things more in the bible more than Pre-marital sex, such as looking after the poor and showing love to others. It's not about bashing people over the head about sexual immorality. It’s like many Christian’s see a hierarchy to sin.

[Roman Soldier]

Ok Captain.

Hmm another question I have: Someone told me once that there was no such thing as pre-marital sex in the Bible because girls were married off as soon as they started menstruation. So if this is true - isn't it fair to say that the Bible really honestly *couldn't* give us advice on the subject? If women married at 13, then there was no possibility to even have premarital sex.

That being said, the thought of carrying out the actual Biblical tradition is a bit icky isn't it? Who here would marry off their 13-year-old daughter?

scigirl

Yes, it is astounding that people today are taking moral advice from the ancient people who did such.

[Serapha]

In today's society, it seems that sex outside of marriage is common. Take many of the 'teen' movies produced. Many depict sex outside the bounds of marriage as commonplace. Some movies have sex outside of marriage as the actual topic of the movie. What are your thoughts?
Hi there!

:wave:

It doesn't make any difference what I think.


Exodus 10:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.


Heb. 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

~serapha~

[Roman Soldier]

Scigirl,

Your profile says that you are a medical student. How can you possibly have time to post on forums such as this?

[reigning_fire]

I'll read through these verses later. They're all from the Old Testament, and there are several commandments in the OT that Christians today don't follow. There are probably more verses in the Bible condemning working on the Sabbath than there is about pre-marital sex.
all it should take is one, and no more, if god says no, it shouldn't be. just because he says more about 1 thing, does not make another of less importance.

[Neenie]

.

[Neenie]

Where have the Christian police gone?

[Eleana]

Conscience is the Lamp of the Holy Spirit...heard this from a pastor. And I believe it's very true.

If the lamp in you is dark, most probably you wont even know whether are you committing a sin or not when you have premarital sex. But I do know...for anyone who walk in the light of God, their conscience is shining bright. and we know that premarital sex will not please God. the guilt that will be in us after the act probe by the Holy Spirti, the lust that involved...aint all these sinful enough?

[The-Doctor]

My view, if we stuck strictly to what the bible told us both new and old testament probably most of us would have been put to death in one form or another.
"He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." and "Judge not lest you be judged."
Whether someone has sex outside of marriage or they don't, whilst I encourage debate on the subject lets not go judging people because they dont conform to someones personal values.

[mindlight]

Sex outside marriage is clearly wrong in scripture and in the historic teaching of the church. Sex should involve a real commitment to a person and not a 'as long as it suits me' one (That should also rule out divorce but popel are very clever at finidng loop holes aren't they). Without being judgmental because that would be wrong the UK culture it seems is very far removed from the American one on this. Sex before marriage is commonplace even in the church in this country. Maybe you Americans shoudl start praying for a revival over here.

[Neenie]

Sex outside marriage is clearly wrong in scripture and in the historic teaching of the church. Sex should involve a real commitment to a person and not a 'as long as it suits me' one (That should also rule out divorce but popel are very clever at finidng loop holes aren't they). Without being judgmental because that would be wrong the UK culture it seems is very far removed from the American one on this. Sex before marriage is commonplace even in the church in this country. Maybe you Americans shoudl start praying for a revival over here.

Where in the bible does it say clearly that pre-marital sex is sin?

[GodBoy809]

i say no.

[Roman Soldier]

Where in the bible does it say clearly that pre-marital sex is sin?

Since only one person (an atheist) gave an answer after I asked that question mutliple times, I don't think you should hold your breath awaiting a response.

[Roman Soldier]

Chapter 38

6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.

7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.


I don't understand how this condemns pre-marital sex. It could be seen as condemning adultery, but not pre-marital sex.

God was certainly in a smitting mood in that chapter.

[t1wGl]

What a popular discussion. Anyone who is not 3 steps from the grave most likely has to deal with the temptations and urges of sensuality. Well I will share some of my personal experiences I have had as a christian, hopefully giving some insight to those struggling with sexual temptations and things pertaining to it.

QUICK NOTE: If I say anything that you find offensive please do not take it the wrong way. I only want to offer what I believe is good advice based upon my personal experiences. I will try to keep it as clean as possible without sacrificing important aspects of the subject. If it takes me a moment to get to the subject below please bear with me.

1. Are you a christian?
The answer to this question will weigh heavily on your reasoning with this topic. I will continue assuming your answer is yes.

2. Sex before or after marriage? It's more complicated than that.

Here I go. I grew up being taught not to have sex before marriage, but unfortunely no one ever gave me any sound reasons I could relate to of why I should wait. Now that I have been through it as a christian (which does make a difference) having made the wrong choices and suffered for them I want to offer to others what no one was able to offer me.

If you think sex is just sex you are mistaken. Especially if you are a Christian.
Why? Someone who is a Christian has been made new through Jesus Christ and truly does become a new person. They experience Love and intamacy with their Creator which changes their life completely.

If you are a virgin (never had sex with someone else) then their is a type and level of intamacy you have never experienced with another human being and is only surpassed by your intamacy and experiences with God. Not to say that sex is the ultimate intamacy, but that it is the ultimate intamacy tool concerning a man and a woman.

If you are like I was, you would say "I want that kind of intamacy with someone else"

The problem with this is that if the person you experience that intamacy with is the wrong person their WILL BE very painful and destructive consequences for opening up to them and what's worse is many of the effects of the intamcy tool called sex are irreversible and those things that are reversible take more will power than most men or women have although I do know a few.

The way they succeded was by staying as much in the presence of God as possible. (church, prayer groups, worship services, etc...). Those that mingle with the world while trying to overcome their flesh are falling into a trap of Satan.

A person you have had a sexual relationship with has access that you have given them (wether you realize it or not) into your heart and if a person is not being led by the Holy Spirit of God this is where that person can do serious damage to another and not even know they are doing the damage.
In my opinion, as a Christian your sexuality is not something you want to even toy around with outside the marriage bed. It can create tension in an otherwise harmonious relationship. It can do that even when people are already married especially when they have had painful past experinces.

If you are thinking you can give in once and it will satisfy your curiosity, be warned this is just another trap of the devil. Once you give in it becomes that much easier to do the next time and that much harder to resist.

The reason sex can be such a horrible sin is because it has the influnce over human nature to cause more harm to others and relationships between parents, children, friends, girlfriends/boyfirends and even God and the individual than anything to my knowledge that exists.

There are hurts I have caused my wife, myself and others that I would have never dreamed of commiting accept that I was drawn and blinded by my own
lust.

If you have not made the mistake of sex before marriage then you do not need anyone to congratulate you. You will see the fruit of your own right choices in your own life in contrast to the vast number around you who fail to follow that narrow path.

If you are considering losing your virginity outside of the marriage bed let me warn you; Lust that is not brought into the submission of God's wonderful, perfect Will is the enemy of true Love and intamacy.

If you are like me and have made the wrong decisions the best advice I have to offer is get involved in a church that is on fire for God and only marry someone who is as passionate about God as you are.

God's Grace through Jesus Christ is the foundation. What we build on that foundation is what we build. May it be good in His sight.

[Roman Soldier]

Numbers 31
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Mid'i-anites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Mid'i-anites, and avenge the LORD of Mid'i-an.

4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phin'ehas the son of Ele-a'zar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7 And they warred against the Mid'i-anites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Mid'i-an, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Mid'i-an: Ba'laam also the son of Be'or they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Mid'i-an captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses and Ele-a'zar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Ele-a'zar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, Num. 25.1-9 and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


What a holy group of people! Examine the past of the past of the people you have captured, and kill them if you think they are unpure!

People actually base their moral standards on the thoughts of this civilization?

[santaclaus]

I think it's ok, it is more than ok, sex before marriage is a way to showing your love for another person, I guess.

[Eleana]

we dont express love through sex. If that's the case, is that mean we make love to everyone since God wants us to love one another?

Reserve your sexuality to your spouse is a privilege you give to yourself and to the other party.

God wants us to keep ourselves holy and treat our body as a temple of the Holy Spirit. I dont understand why so many christians in this forum say it's okay to have sex before marriage. Any sexual act and lust that is done outside marriage is sin. Alot of things dont have to clearly spell out in words found in bible. Your conscience and your heart will make known to you.

[t1wGl]

What a holy group of people! Examine the past of the past of the people you have captured, and kill them if you think they are unpure!

People actually base their moral standards on the thoughts of this civilization?

Moses had not started this war against Midian, until God ordered it. When these Midianite women had seduced the Israelites and mixed with them, it was against God, as much as against the Israelites. These women had caused the men of Israel to commit adultery, and even caused them to bow to false gods.

We as Christians are only holy because Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross and traded our sins for His righteousness.

God is Holy and nothing that is unholy will ever be able to exist in His presence.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Accept a man recieves God's righteousness through faith in His Son Jesus Christ he will never be able enter into heaven.

Jesus Christ is the Gift of God the Father to the world to take it's sins away. If the world refuses to recieve His gift, how then can one say that God did not love the world.

It is the world that did not and does not recieve the Love of God.

[oNe_TrUsTeD_aDvIsOr]

definitley dont believe in sex outside of marriage

[refusethemark]

Absolutely not!

[Roman Soldier]

definitley dont believe in sex outside of marriage

That's fine, but do you have Scriptural back-up for telling me that sex before marriage isn't ok?

[JesseB.]

I think it's OK. Now I am not going to respond after this. The reason I think it is OK is because it is the person's decision. We shouldn't spend so much time worrying about what is sinful. Instead, we should try to evangelize more people.

[Roman Soldier]

Ok.

[t1wGl]

As far as the Bible making the statement that there should not be any sex outside of marriage, the truth is there is no where in the Bible that it says exactly that. On the other hand there are many Scriptures that could be interpreted as saying that.

Is adultery cheating on your wife or is it having sex with anyone other than someone you are married to? This opinion varies.

There is a Scripture in 1st Corinthians that indicates if two christians happen to be intimate with each other that they should not be scolded, but should be allowed to marry. To me this Scripture shows that although sexual relations outside of marriage should not be encouraged, things do happen and we should not judge on technical aspects, but upon the thoughts and intents of those in question. If they were having recreational sex and were planning to switch partners then their is definitely going to be hurt involved in the relationship and we know that we as Christians are commanded to love one another. If we love one another we will not hurt each other, thus we will not engage in a sexual relationship or any other action that would cause hurt.

I have never been in any position to pass judgement either way.

I do not think sex outside of marriage is right, but I think there are alot of things that are not right.

When it happens to someone you love a great deal, pity and compassion hopefully tend to kick in and although you might not agree you tend to understand.

[Eleana]

I think it's OK.........We shouldn't spend so much time worrying about what is sinful. Instead, we should try to evangelize more people.

I dont agree with what you say. We as christians should ourselves set good example and to hate sins as God commands us to....

if we continue doing things that are sinful, yet thinking that it's is okay and think to ourselves that we should not spend time worrying so much abt it. is your life a good testimony to others, esp ppl that you evanglize? We should think through what we are doing...is it really pleasing to God and will it bring Him glory...

[Kathy]

Only sex within a marriage...meaning your own that is. LOL

[Livinloud316]

NO!

[kevinward256]

Well this is topic that can anger alot of people, but here is where I stand. Sex outside of marriage is just wrong it is fornication. God tells us not to be fornicators. 1 Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Sex is for the marriage bed and only for the marriage bed, Hebrews 13:4 - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. I believe we should be celebate until we are married.

Go for purity. :angel:

[pinPoint]

lost hope, unsure answers, wrong decisions. Truly our bodies are supposed to be Temples to worship the Lord. Sex is reserved as a package that goes with Marriage but most ppl steal it before Marriage. If you are not sure, ask yourself why im I not sure? Im I still a Christian? think about it.

[Roman Soldier]

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Sex is for the marriage bed and only for the marriage bed,

We may finally have the verse I've been looking for. Now all I need is a bibilical definition of fornication.

Although that verse does contradict other Biblical teachings....

B]Hebrews 13:4[/B] - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- that verse doesn't condemn pre-marital sex.

[cjwsb]

In the real world, I don't think there's anything wrong with sex before marriage. There are certain things you have to know about a partner before taking the plunge. You should definitely live with them for a while, and engage in sex. It ensures that you know what you are getting into for the rest of your life.

[Blessed-one]

definitely not outside marriage, see all the problems with abortions and diseases?? that's what you get with sex outside marriage.

i think loving someone because of sex is not real love. If you loved someone enough, you should be willing to marry him/her even one aspect of him/her is not as.. good? besides, having sex is the most intimate one can get into a relationship, in terms of physical giving that is, so it should not be abused.

[Roman Soldier]

definitely not outside marriage, see all the problems with abortions and diseases?? that's what you get with sex outside marriage.


Sex before marriage doesn't mean sexual irresponsibility. Diseases and abortions come from people not using condoms. It is possible for one partner to give the other partner a disease, or for a married couple to have an unwanted child.

[engiin]

The best is no sex. Since all sex is sin.

However, if you must have sex. Then marriage first.
And then, if you can't wait for marriage, make sure it's with someone you really care about and would like to spend your life with anyway, who also cares about you.
And then, if you can't even wait to find this right person, at least make sure the person cares about you, and not just who you want.
And then, if this wisdom fails, try it only with someone you like.
And if the urge to merge is too great even for this, remember this truth:
All men and women are here because of sex.
Sex is not love.
Sex is lust.
Lust is a battle between two forces.
They are hate and greed.
Hate causes us to push things away.
Greed causes us to pull things towards us.
For this reason Lust involves pushing and pulling.
There is no love involved.
That's why there's such a thing as rape.
Love doesn't push, neither does it pull.
Love offers, accepts, and forgives.
You never hear anyone complain about forced love.
There's no such thing. It's not possible.
But people confuse love and lust.
So, best there be love first, before engaging in lust.

When there is love, individuals automatically forgive the hate and greed
passions of their partner's lust, recognise each other's weakness for the
flesh, spiritually bond, and emotionally experience the joys that come from
unconsciously sharing this compassion of souls connecting and caring for each
other. So, it can be a very emotionally fullfilling experience.

Without love, however, partners find themselves in court, arguing about
who didn't give who what and when, as the selfish souls play out their
true passions in a more public setting, having outgrown the ritual of
the bedroom, which no longer provides the self-satifaction it once did,
as the novelty wore off a long time ago, and like a drug, the need for
this satisfaction, of the true passions the relationship was built on,
has grown with time, and they, fully addicted adicts, want more, now!

Now, the thing is, not only does lust keep the male flesh chained to
female flesh, but lust also keeps the living spirit chained to the material
fleshy body. At death of the body, the spirit is liberated, but still
hungers after the flesh, and so must seek life on earth again, until
it no longer desires to engage in the passions of lust.


Overcoming the passions of lust in the flesh then, is the first step in
overcoming the passion for the flesh entirely. This is why the order
of the rules is given above for sex. Everyone is on the ladder, at some
particular rung, from the lowest passions to the highest goals. But to
determine what is higher and what is lower, we only need to look at
how God has designed the human body.

When we stand up, with our feet on the ground, our head is the highest
part of the body. Parts closer to the ground are more material and less
spiritual, and parts higher up are more spiritual and less material. Parts
in front the body are more important, to be glorified, and parts behind
and beneath are intended to be shunned. It is possible to develop an
infatuation with any part of the physical body, but by design the parts
to be glorified lift us up while the parts to be shunned pull us down.

You know, a man and woman can get great pleasure just from making
eye contact across a room, that they could never obtain from twiddling
their toes together. This does not detract from the expert toe twiddlers,
who may have mastered their art. But the point is that without that
eye contact, the toes would never get the opportunity to twiddle. The
eye is simply much more powerful an organ of the body in determinine
the pleasure of the union. Best of all, of course, is our imagination, which
resides in the mind, tentatively located in the brain above and around those
eyes.

So, decide whether you're going up the ladder or down, and pick a rung
you think you can stand on, being mindful of the order God has laid out
for you to see. There are angels and demons, men and beasts, look at
how they share and decide which you would emulate. The "form" you
emulate determines the passions you feed, and the character you'll
develop, and maybe even what you'll look like in the next life when you
return in the flesh :)

[jimmywhite]

i think of sex like your heart...you shouldnt give it away unless you know you love that person. {Marrige}

~JimmyWhite

[Roman Soldier]

The best is no sex. Since all sex is sin.

I definitely need to see some Biblical references for this one. Why do sex organs exist, then?

What's WinAce's AOL handle again?

[Neenie]

.

[engiin]

Matthew|5:27
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:


Matthew|5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Galatians|5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians|5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

etc...

James|1:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James|1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

etc...

1 John|2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.

IF ANY MAN LOVE THE WORLD, THE LOVE OF THE FATHER IS NOT IN HIM.

1 John|2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

etc..

To answer your question, sex organs exist to provide a mechanism for sin to find a way to express itself and work its way through error by suffering for a "limited time", rather than being eternally trapped with no hope of redemption in some perpetual state. So, things of this world have birth, age, and death. And the cause of new birth is the sin of sex between two people. That sin has a limited time to express itself here on earth. The drama experienced by the soul teaches it about sin. Life on earth is supposed to be suffering. It's not supposed to be fun. The suffering is tempered by moments of levity. But overall, the whole point is that man should want to leave this place, not to stay here. That is the Christian message of the bible.

[Neenie]

.

[Neenie]

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[Neenie]

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[dialogue]

It would be interesting to have another poll to see how many Christians actually practice what they preach, i.e. celibacy until marriage.

-Cordelia

[Neenie]

.

[Yalith]

Some people think the bible says that sex outside of marriage is a sin. But the bible is unclear. In Exodus, chapter 20, in the 10 commandments, we are told you should not commit adultery. Adultery is not defined as having sex outside of marriage. It is defined as having sex with a married person. Nothing is said prohibiting sexual relations between two unmarried people. In fact, in Leviticus we are given a list of every situation in which we should not have sex. We're not to have sex with married people, or with family members, or with animals. I don't know where it says we are prohibited from having sex with an unmarried person who is not in our family.

Some places in the bible state that fornication is a sin. Some people interpret that to mean sex outside of marriage. What if they are wrong?. The greek translation identifies fornication as being any "illicit (illegal) sexual activity". But in Leviticus, the bible does not mention sex between two unmarried people as being illicit.

I was reading Genisis 24 and Isaac and Rebekah had no formal ceremony, They were in love and married in the eyes of God.

As I said earlier, my bottom line on any sexuality is that love is the most important thing, Sex that is in a loving relationship is not sin!, That is different from abuse.
:clap: Yeah I completely agree. I've been trying to think of a way to say what I'm thinking and it's been difficult. My husband and I "lived together" *gasp* for nearly 9 months before we were married, but we made a promise to each other long before we took our vows and went through what was in our eyes merely a legal formality. Our love for each other was what made it right and good. After all God is LOVE! Sex without love is the true sin.

[Neenie]

.

[cindylou]

Yes it would!


I firmly believe that if you’re in a committed loving relationship with your partner God will not condemn you for it, just as long as it's built on love not lust.

Sorry, but Christ has spoken. Sex outside of marriage is a sin, regardless of how two people "feel" about each other. Feelings have absolutely nothing to do with how to follow what Christ teaches. We do it because we love God. Besides if your partner to be reallly loves you, then they want even suggest having sex.

[Droobie]

What of those who were "in love at the time". For a person who has had... for example 10 sexual partners in the past 2 years, each time, moving from one relationship to the other, each time thinking... "this is the one for me... we're in love" this person perhaps may truly be in a loving relationship each time, or they have confused lust with love. Is this a case where one would say sex before marriage is okay, or does it promote promiscuity? Apart from health risks, there are emotional, psychological and spiritual effects of sex before marriage.

[Yalith]

What of those who were "in love at the time". For a person who has had... for example 10 sexual partners in the past 2 years, each time, moving from one relationship to the other, each time thinking... "this is the one for me... we're in love" this person perhaps may truly be in a loving relationship each time, or they have confused lust with love. Is this a case where one would say sex before marriage is okay, or does it promote promiscuity? Apart from health risks, there are emotional, psychological and spiritual effects of sex before marriage.

There are emotional, psychological and spiritual effects of sex even within marriage. Now I understand your point about people confusing lust with love. But we have to be careful to distinguish the two. I think that with a lot of contemplation and prayer that God will lead us in the right direction

Sorry, but Christ has spoken. Sex outside of marriage is a sin, regardless of how two people "feel" about each other. Feelings have absolutely nothing to do with how to follow what Christ teaches. We do it because we love God. Besides if your partner to be reallly loves you, then they want even suggest having sex.


Feelings have everything to do with what Christ teaches. We aren't supposed to follow the rules, just because they are there and they're the rules. We should follow them because of the love we have for Christ and the love he has for us. We should respect him enough to follow his commands. And I recall nowhere that Christ taught or stated that sex outside of marriage is a sin. If I am incorrect please provide me with a reference.

I also think it is incorrect that if someone loves you they won't suggest having sex. But I do feel like they will respect your feelings towards sex. If you want to wait until marriage then they should try to understand and respect that.

Jessica

[Neenie]

.

[Neenie]

Feelings have everything to do with what Christ teaches. We aren't supposed to follow the rules, just because they are there and they're the rules. We should follow them because of the love we have for Christ and the love he has for us. We should respect him enough to follow his commands. And I recall nowhere that Christ taught or stated that sex outside of marriage is a sin. If I am incorrect please provide me with a reference.

I also think it is incorrect that if someone loves you they won't suggest having sex. But I do feel like they will respect your feelings towards sex. If you want to wait until marriage then they should try to understand and respect that.

Jessica

Amen!

[Droobie]

I recall nowhere that Christ taught or stated that sex outside of marriage is a sin. If I am incorrect please provide me with a reference.
Christ did not specifically mention a lot of things, which does not necissarily mean that what He did not mention is wrong or right.

[Neenie]

Christ did not specifically mention a lot of things, which does not necissarily mean that what He did not mention is wrong or right.

It's okay if people want to think that premarital sex is not good. However, there is not biblical justification to believe that premarital sex is bad.

[Droobie]

It's okay if people want to think that premarital sex is not good. However, there is not biblical justification to believe that premarital sex is bad.
Just to clarify, premarital sex between people who are in 'truly/deeply' in love is okay...

[Neenie]

Just to clarify, premarital sex between people who are in 'truly/deeply' in love is okay...

Yes if you are in a long term relationship and want to get married. Why does it need to be formal for? Is there a way to get married in God's eyes without legal formality?

"Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. "
Romans 13:13

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"
1 Corinthians 6:9

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; "
Galatians 5:19

"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. "
Ephesians 5:3

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. "
Colossians 3:5

[Droobie]

So what is 'sexual immorality'? Where is the line drawn?

[Neenie]

So what is 'sexual immorality'? Where is the line drawn?

sexual immorality
1. [n] the quality of being lewd and lascivious.

lewd
adjective DISAPPROVING
(of behaviour, speech, dress, etc.) sexual in an obvious and rude way:

Definitions of lascivious:
adjective: driven by lust; preoccupied with or exhibiting lustful desires.

I think you can draw the line there; Sex with a married person I think also is Sexual immorality.

I believe that for every couple making love, there are two less people out there causing serious trouble ;)

[indigo tree]

Sex outside of marriage- No.
Why? Its not that I don't understand that you can truly love someone outside of marriage. Its just that I think its good to make sure sex isn't the ruling part of a relationship. Therefore, its good to wait until marriage so that way you know your truly in love.

And besides, come you wedding night, what is there to give to your soul mate? Noithing that he/she hasn't already seen before. In that situiation that moment becomes less special, less powerful.

That being said, I think "making love", though it sounds nice, is the wrong terminology. If you are having sex with someone that your already fully and completely love, what love is there to make? You should already be in love with the person . "Sharing love" is more of what it is.

I wouldn't start a relationship with him if he didn't turn me on, is that bad?
Eleana, I believe brilliant sex before marriage with your right partner, lights the way to paradise. what do you think of that brand of salacious Christianity? ;)Last time I checked love is the greatest igniter of them all. If your in love with the person, and they love you back there should be no problem with being "turned on".
I think its a sad, pathetic world, when someone loves another person based on whether there good in bed or not.

Sex doesn't equal love, sex is not going to make love. Sex is sharing love with someone you already love. And when a couple undertsands that, I think thats when sex starts working its magic.

[Droobie]

I believe that for every couple making love, there are two less people out there causing serious trouble ;)
Hmm... okay... what about couples who are under 'legal' age? There's no mention of age in the Bible. Age of consent is something made up by the legal system. So if you have to people who are 'in love' one is 13 years old, and the other is 43... would that be okay?

[engiin]

But you don't get into your car looking for a traffic jam LOL.

That's the whole point. People don't know there's a traffic jam around the corner, that's why they get into their car and start off that way down the road. They can't see what's ahead. Jesus came and said, "Look guys, Dad sent me to tell you what's coming up ahead if you carry on this way. If you make a left turn at the next intersection, you'll get stuck in a traffic jam. If you make this right turn here and now, you'll get clear sailing all the way home. I just wanted you to know." Then, people came along and read the instructions he left, and decided on their own meanings. Some adopted a very philosophical view, "Well, if there's going to be a traffic jam, there's going to be a traffic jam. Nobody can do anything about it. That's the way of the world. Everybody knows that we meet traffic jams from time to time. It's just something we have to accept. God created everthing in the world, even traffic jams. If he didn't want traffic jams to exist, he wouldn't have created any. How does this guy know that the traffic jam isn't going to clear up by time we get there anyway? What's the date on that book? Look, this is 2000 years old. It's outdated anyway. That traffic jam is old news. It doesn't apply today. We have new rules. Things are different now. We have traffic lights, if you didn't notice. They didn't know about traffic lights 2000 years ago. That's probably why Jesus was so alarmed and brought the message. Today, everything is under control. There are probably fewer traffic jams today that they were before they had lights regulating everything for us. So, it was a bigger issue back then. Today, as we can see, traffic jams are no big deal."

[scigirl]

Scigirl,

Your profile says that you are a medical student. How can you possibly have time to post on forums such as this?
Hi Captain Jackson,

I don't. (http://www.christianforums.com/t80172) I'm on break!

scigirl

[Neenie]

Sex outside of marriage- No.
Why? Its not that I don't understand that you can truly love someone outside of marriage. Its just that I think its good to make sure sex isn't the ruling part of a relationship. Therefore, its good to wait until marriage so that way you know your truly in love.

And besides, come you wedding night, what is there to give to your soul mate? Noithing that he/she hasn't already seen before. In that situiation that moment becomes less special, less powerful.

That being said, I think "making love", though it sounds nice, is the wrong terminology. If you are having sex with someone that your already fully and completely love, what love is there to make? You should already be in love with the person . "Sharing love" is more of what it is.

Last time I checked love is the greatest igniter of them all. If your in love with the person, and they love you back there should be no problem with being "turned on".
I think its a sad, pathetic world, when someone loves another person based on whether there good in bed or not.

Sex doesn't equal love, sex is not going to make love. Sex is sharing love with someone you already love. And when a couple undertsands that, I think thats when sex starts working its magic.


Well I agree with most of What you said, Except for that comment I made over a week ago which I regret saying because that comment was made out of frustration and isn't the true me, I was frustrated because everywhere I look I see having sex with anyone you want is acceptable in society, if it feels good do it! I do believe that romance is good, but it's just gotten a little too hardcore through the media over the years, and the only way I could release my frustration at that, and people who disagree with me, was to be immature about it, that comment was spur of the moment . Please forgive me I made a mistake :sigh: .
But I'm being sincere that do believe it's O.K to have sexual relations with the person you love with "your partner" before marriage I’m in a relationship right now with my boyfriend and we do love each other! And we will soon get married. Yes some people say it doesn’t work, but sometimes marriages don’t work either, that’s my opinion that’s what I believe please don't judge me too harshly.

[Neenie]

Hmm... okay... what about couples who are under 'legal' age? There's no mention of age in the Bible. Age of consent is something made up by the legal system. So if you have to people who are 'in love' one is 13 years old, and the other is 43... would that be okay?

I don't agree with that, it's not moral. It sounds more like Child abuse or pedophilia.

[Neenie]

That's the whole point. People don't know there's a traffic jam around the corner, that's why they get into their car and start off that way down the road. They can't see what's ahead. Jesus came and said, "Look guys, Dad sent me to tell you what's coming up ahead if you carry on this way. If you make a left turn at the next intersection, you'll get stuck in a traffic jam. If you make this right turn here and now, you'll get clear sailing all the way home. I just wanted you to know." Then, people came along and read the instructions he left, and decided on their own meanings. Some adopted a very philosophical view, "Well, if there's going to be a traffic jam, there's going to be a traffic jam. Nobody can do anything about it. That's the way of the world. Everybody knows that we meet traffic jams from time to time. It's just something we have to accept. God created everthing in the world, even traffic jams. If he didn't want traffic jams to exist, he wouldn't have created any. How does this guy know that the traffic jam isn't going to clear up by time we get there anyway? What's the date on that book? Look, this is 2000 years old. It's outdated anyway. That traffic jam is old news. It doesn't apply today. We have new rules. Things are different now. We have traffic lights, if you didn't notice. They didn't know about traffic lights 2000 years ago. That's probably why Jesus was so alarmed and brought the message. Today, everything is under control. There are probably fewer traffic jams today that they were before they had lights regulating everything for us. So, it was a bigger issue back then. Today, as we can see, traffic jams are no big deal."

This thread is a traffic jam :sigh: Maybe I’ve lost my conscience what if I’m right what if im wrong? I don't know.

[engiin]

This thread is a traffic jam :sigh: Maybe I’ve lost my conscience what if I’m right what if im wrong? I don't know.

You're right we should love, love, love. But the right type of love.

You know, we love to lust, but we don't lust to love. Therein is the mystery of sin. People use the word love to mean desire to do just about anything. I love icecream. I love chocolates. I love her. Etc... We want to use the word love because its a good word. It makes us feel we're doing right. But when we carefully examine how we use the word, we see that we're really stealing the goodness of the word away and applying it to coverup the badness of our sinful thoughts. That icecream feeds the flesh, not the spirit. Same with that chocolate. The flesh can't love, only lust. When a boy in his teens says to a young girl "I love you", he usually means "I know you want to hear love, so I'll say love, because maybe I'll score. But I know if I'm honest and say I lust after you, it's likely I'll get a slap instead. I'm certainly not looking for a slap. So, I'll use the word love to be safe."
Everybody borrows the word love, because it's respectable, and liked. The same sort of thing happens today with the word "Science". Now we have "Christian Science" and "Scientology" and all sorts of newfangled Scientific religions. And there isn't a bit of science in these things. Like the teenager who borrows the word love to intrigue his girl flame, these young groups feel the need to borrow credibility from an acceptable term. That's how love gets misused. But the trick is, real love doesn't 'expect' to get anything. If you can withhold your love from your guy, to punish him for not giving you what you want, it's not love, it's the other thing. Real love can't be withheld once it comes into being. It bursts out the heart and fills up the universe to envlop all the stars in it's flame. And the giving of it is what makes you feel good, nothing has to come back to you.

Rather than thinking of premarital sex as bad or good, think of the sex/love problem interms of good, better, best. It's good to have lust with love, it's better to be married too, and it's best to abstain altoghether if you can.
When Jesus came, he didn't say "Now listen guys, the rules you've been told to follow all along are bad. Follow my new instructions instead, because they are good." What he said basically was, "Listen guys, the rules you've been told to follow all along are good and righteous. But now you must exceed that standard and be even better and more righteous than what you've been told before." In one example, relevant here, he said "That no adultery rule, in the ten commandments, as previously interpreted by the scribes and priests, is good. But now you must exceed that standard, and not even contemplate the lust, much less act it out." So, he wasn't dividing things into bad and good, but into good and better. The problem most people have is they think Jesus came and said all that old stuff is bad, and you must now do these things because only that is good. If you think in terms of good, better, best, your problem may be solved.

[Sierva_de_Dios]

¿Sex outside of marriage? :eek: NO WAY!!! Not under any circumstances whatsoever!!!!! The Bible clearly and repeatedly states that fornication/adultery is a sin. Anyone who believes otherwise needs to read their Bible, or understand the meaning of "morality," "dignity," and "integrity."

[PistGurl]

I believe that if God gave us free will, and gave us the joys of sex, why not do it? Of course being overly sexual is wrong, as it can spread disease etc, but why not? When the bible was written, it was illegal to have sex before marriage, that is what it means by 'follow laws of sex', but now it is not, so it is not against any laws.

[Yalith]

Christ did not specifically mention a lot of things, which does not necissarily mean that what He did not mention is wrong or right.
You're right, that means that we have to trust our own conscience to tell us where to go on these matters. A lot of you out there feel like sex before marriage is wrong under any circumstances, and if that's the way you feel, then that is the right path for you to take. But if you feel as I and several others do that love and commitment are the important things, and marriage is just a piece of paper declaring it to the world, then premarital sex may be the right path for you. It's purely individual.
I have seen no scripture that specifically bans premarital sex, "sexual immorality" is a very relative term. Just pray and follow your heart. Hope I haven't offended anyone with my opinion. :pink:

[cindylou]

I believe that if God gave us free will, and gave us the joys of sex, why not do it?
Because the joy of sex was designed as a by product of marriage. Having free will means the ability to choose to follow God or not.

When the bible was written, it was illegal to have sex before marriage, that is what it means by 'follow laws of sex', but now it is not, so it is not against any laws.
Following "cultural" or "societal" law does not exclude us from following God's law. Arranged marriage was also the norm, so girls at age 12 were marrying 50 year old men, but that's another story. Divorce is not "illegal" in our country either, but Jesus specifically requested that we not do it.

[scigirl]

Following "cultural" or "societal" law does not exclude us from following God's law. Arranged marriage was also the norm, so girls at age 12 were marrying 50 year old men, but that's another story. Divorce is not "illegal" in our country either, but Jesus specifically requested that we not do it.
But - why is it another story? If the Bible is a moral guide, it's a moral guide. Are you saying that parts of the Bible are moral guides and other parts can be ignored because it was the custom of the day?

Jesus did not make that distinction. He apparently followed and believed Judaeic laws. He did get mad at people who followed them without thinking (the sabbath laws for example) but He did not seem at all concerned about the local marriage practices of polygamy and arranged marriages. Why?

If those customs are wrong now, why weren't they wrong then? Why didn't Jesus at least mention, "um, hey guys, arranged marriages between 50 year olds and 13 year olds is, like, wrong. Oh and so is treating women like property, oh and slavery too, and some other stuff."

Alas, He did not. His silence on so many issues that we now consider immoral speaks volumes to me. Namely, that the Bible is nothing more, and nothing less, than a product of its time.

scigirl

[secretdawn]

It would be interesting to have another poll to see how many Christians actually practice what they preach, i.e. celibacy until marriage.

-Cordelia
I had a child before I became christian...so if i didn't have sex again until I got married would that count as practicing what i preach?

[cindylou]

But - why is it another story? If the Bible is a moral guide, it's a moral guide. Are you saying that parts of the Bible are moral guides and other parts can be ignored because it was the custom of the day?

Jesus did not make that distinction. He apparently followed and believed Judaeic laws. He did get mad at people who followed them without thinking (the sabbath laws for example) but He did not seem at all concerned about the local marriage practices of polygamy and arranged marriages. Why?



Alas, He did not. His silence on so many issues that we now consider immoral speaks volumes to me. Namely, that the Bible is nothing more, and nothing less, than a product of its time.

scigirl
First of all we cannot compare Jewish life in Christ's time to our own lives in modern times. The same laws do not apply mainly because we are not Jewish. Jesus very clearly states that he did not come "to change the Law, but to expand it." In other words, he changed everything. For example, the offense for stealing was to cut off a person's hands. This is still practiced in some Islamic culture. Arranged marriage was not addressed, because it would not be a "sin" so to speak. It was purely a custom which served a purpose. The sin would be to have sex outside of marriage and that moral code applies to all. We can and should use a lot of what we read in the Bible as a way to understand the people, but Christ came to spread the message of love and selflessness.

[aanjt]

AND...the human body is the temple of God. Why should a woman allow a man to defile it.

And sometimes it is defiled out of force that the woman did not allow.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

[Eleana]

I am very sorry, but I disagree with what you say :sigh: . Do you have any evidence being in a loving relationship it is a sin?. Is love a sin? I am with a loving partner and God has been blessing our relationship, because he knows we love each other. Do you think all sex is bad?.
I don’t believe in having 10 relationships you need to be careful.


Love doesnt mean you have to give your body or have sex with someone. If the person really loves you, he will respect your body as well and wont want to condemn it.

[Neenie]

Love doesnt mean you have to give your body or have sex with someone. If the person really loves you, he will respect your body as well and wont want to condemn it.

True...

[StevenH]

Its sad how so many people conveniently twist and spin the true meaning of the bible to accomadate their lust...

[Neenie]

Its sad how so many people conveniently twist and spin the true meaning of the bible to accomadate their lust...

No one is twisting the bible, people have different interpretations.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
Mathew7Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.

Romans2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself.

[Yalith]

But - why is it another story? If the Bible is a moral guide, it's a moral guide. Are you saying that parts of the Bible are moral guides and other parts can be ignored because it was the custom of the day?

Jesus did not make that distinction. He apparently followed and believed Judaeic laws. He did get mad at people who followed them without thinking (the sabbath laws for example) but He did not seem at all concerned about the local marriage practices of polygamy and arranged marriages. Why?

If those customs are wrong now, why weren't they wrong then? Why didn't Jesus at least mention, "um, hey guys, arranged marriages between 50 year olds and 13 year olds is, like, wrong. Oh and so is treating women like property, oh and slavery too, and some other stuff."

Alas, He did not. His silence on so many issues that we now consider immoral speaks volumes to me. Namely, that the Bible is nothing more, and nothing less, than a product of its time.

scigirl

Well, I have to slightly disagree with you. But only a little. The Old Testament is very much a product of it's time. Much of it is merely a list of ancient Judaic laws that are extremely outdated. And there is no Christian that I have ever heard of who keeps every law written in the old testament. My feeling on the matter is that Jesus made the old law unnecessary.

I don't like it when people try to take the Bible and pull out a list of rules to live by and try to force it on themselves and other people. It's not right or fair. I feel like the real message is that we should love other people as Jesus loves us. And then we do away with all this sin talk. If we love one another, we won't want to bring harm to one another, we will help one another, war will end. I think anything that is done out of real love cannot be wrong.

IMHO, the only true sin is hate or animosity or ill will or not even caring about someone.
Jessica

--"What the world needs now is love, sweet love. It's the only thing that there's just to little of."

Jackie DeSannon

[AtlantaFest04]

I think sex outside of marriage is wrong

[scigirl]

For example, the offense for stealing was to cut off a person's hands. This is still practiced in some Islamic culture. Arranged marriage was not addressed, because it would not be a "sin" so to speak. It was purely a custom which served a purpose. The sin would be to have sex outside of marriage and that moral code applies to all.
But - where are you getting your ideas from, if not the Bible? What tells you that arranged marriages are immoral? Could it be. . . something outside of the Christian belief system?

For all the yammering that Christians do about the "traditions" of marriage, it would be nice if they actually knew them. Arranged marriages occured in the early United States. You know, when we were all still Christian. Furthermore, women could not inherit money or property after their husbands died. This was only about 150 years or so ago. Less than 30 years ago, over 40 states had laws outlawing interracial marriages because they would create a "mongrel breed of citizens". All practices were supported quite nicely by direct quotes from the Bible. Which begs the question - why are there so many Bible quotes that are easy to use to justify oppression?

To return to the actual topic:
At the time the Bible was written, there was rarely the opportunity for premarital sex. Why? Because female children were married off as soon as they could breed. So if Jesus was simply a man of his times, it makes sense that he never directly addressed pre-marital sex then.

Unless of course he was the Son of God, and he knew that even 2000 years later, people would be reading everything he said and trying to follow it (sometimes). If that were me, I'd throw in a couple things like "Hey guys, slavery and treating women like cattle is, ya know, kinda bad, OH and thalidomde causes birth defects. Paul - quit looking at me funny and just write it down. They'll know what I mean in 1900 years or so."

At the time that it was written, marriage had more in common with property rights laws than today's marriage of equal partnerships. Why didn't Jesus address these sick and immoral marriage practices? He not only failed to say they were wrong, he endorsed them by railing against divorce on several occasions.
We can and should use a lot of what we read in the Bible as a way to understand the people, but Christ came to spread the message of love and selflessness.
Ok - so you want to use the essence of the Bible, not its actual words, to live by. Don't you think this is very subjective? Furthermore, if Christ was only concerned with love and selflessness, than why did He spend so much time on the Judeic laws that many of you now ignore? You would think he would have figured out that true love transcends things like a big expensive ceremony and a piece of paper. But no. Jesus seemed way more concerned about the ceremony of marriage than He did about selfless love between two equal partners.

scigirl

[scigirl]

Hello Yalith,

I don't like it when people try to take the Bible and pull out a list of rules to live by and try to force it on themselves and other people.
Neither do I.

I think anything that is done out of real love cannot be wrong.
Well said.

scigirl

[notworthy]

My christian dictionary defines fornication as- Sexual intercourse between a man and a women not married to each other. Galation 5;19&21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultry, fornication.... those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. God is Love he hates the sin but, Loves and forgives the sinner who ask for forgiveness. God Bless!

[notworthy]

My christian dictionary defines fornication as- Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman that are not married. Galations 5;19&21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultry, fornication.... those who practice such thimgs will not inherit the kingdom of God. God is Love , he hates sin but, Loves the sinner and forgives those who ask for forgiveness. God Bless!

[Yalith]

My christian dictionary defines fornication as- Sexual intercourse between a man and a women not married to each other. Galation 5;19&21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultry, fornication.... those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. God is Love he hates the sin but, Loves and forgives the sinner who ask for forgiveness. God Bless!
Your dictionary gives the modern definition of fornication. It has come to mean pre-marital sex, but the bible itself never mentions pre-marital sex.


Exodus 22:16
And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

So there is no premarital sex. The sex act itself constitutes a marriage contract.

And if fornication is premarital sex then how can a married woman be guilty of it?


Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except be it for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery.


In fact if you look up the roots of the word fornication, it comes from a Greek word meaning an arch where prostitutes plied their trade. (according to Webster anyway). So it leads me to believe that the fornication referred to in the Bible is actually adultery and prostitution.
Jessica

[Lizzy16]

I believe it's wrong to have sex outside of marriage......really.

[BabbleOn8806]

it's wrong. period! that's my take after reading God's word... and i'm waiting until i am married!

[TheFirstNoelle]

But - why is it another story? If the Bible is a moral guide, it's a moral guide. Are you saying that parts of the Bible are moral guides and other parts can be ignored because it was the custom of the day?
Absolutely. Within the bible itself, there are changes in what is morally right and wrong. For instance, in the Old Testament men were allowed to have multiple wives, and strange things (ie Tamar dressing as a prostitute to sleep with her father in law & conceive a child) were permitted in order to keep Israel growing in number. In the New Testament, Paul specifies that the deacons in the church are to have only one wife. You can infer from this that having one wife is the moral standard, since church leaders were to be leaders in Godly living.


Jesus did not make that distinction. He apparently followed and believed Judaeic laws. He did get mad at people who followed them without thinking (the sabbath laws for example) but He did not seem at all concerned about the local marriage practices of polygamy and arranged marriages. Why?

If those customs are wrong now, why weren't they wrong then? Why didn't Jesus at least mention, "um, hey guys, arranged marriages between 50 year olds and 13 year olds is, like, wrong. Oh and so is treating women like property, oh and slavery too, and some other stuff."

Alas, He did not. His silence on so many issues that we now consider immoral speaks volumes to me. Namely, that the Bible is nothing more, and nothing less, than a product of its time.

scigirl
Hmmm. I'm a little confused here. You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit. Both Jesus and Paul did *not* follow all Judeaic laws, or at least did not consider them important in the grand scheme of things. The sabbath laws you mention are a good example, as are rules about circumcision and cleanliness.

Yes, the Bible is a product of its time. Hence, there are codes of morality in it that do not apply to us today. I'm not saying we can read whatever we like into scripture, but there are definitely culturally-dictated areas. The issue of women and their place in the church, the way they should dress, etc, is an example used fairly frequently. Same with slavery, as you said. Slavery in Biblical times was an integral part of the culture, and could be beneficial to both master and slave. It's not the same kind of slavery that we usually think of - ie the atrocious treatment of black slaves in the American south. But regardless, it was moraly acceptable then (Philemon anyone?) and not so now.

I apologize if I misunderstood your post, by the way. I was a little confused by it!

[Yalith]

Absolutely. Within the bible itself, there are changes in what is morally right and wrong. For instance, in the Old Testament men were allowed to have multiple wives, and strange things (ie Tamar dressing as a prostitute to sleep with her father in law & conceive a child) were permitted in order to keep Israel growing in number. In the New Testament, Paul specifies that the deacons in the church are to have only one wife. You can infer from this that having one wife is the moral standard, since church leaders were to be leaders in Godly living.



Hmmm. I'm a little confused here. You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit. Both Jesus and Paul did *not* follow all Judeaic laws, or at least did not consider them important in the grand scheme of things. The sabbath laws you mention are a good example, as are rules about circumcision and cleanliness.

Yes, the Bible is a product of its time. Hence, there are codes of morality in it that do not apply to us today. I'm not saying we can read whatever we like into scripture, but there are definitely culturally-dictated areas. The issue of women and their place in the church, the way they should dress, etc, is an example used fairly frequently. Same with slavery, as you said. Slavery in Biblical times was an integral part of the culture, and could be beneficial to both master and slave. It's not the same kind of slavery that we usually think of - ie the atrocious treatment of black slaves in the American south. But regardless, it was moraly acceptable then (Philemon anyone?) and not so now.

I apologize if I misunderstood your post, by the way. I was a little confused by it!
:clap:
Good response.

[PistGurl]

Because the joy of sex was designed as a by product of marriage. Having free will means the ability to choose to follow God or not.


Following "cultural" or "societal" law does not exclude us from following God's law. Arranged marriage was also the norm, so girls at age 12 were marrying 50 year old men, but that's another story. Divorce is not "illegal" in our country either, but Jesus specifically requested that we not do it.

He request we not do it, because it was as good as illegal in those days, it was looked down apon, and nobody with morals would give a divorece, so to have one would mean you have searched to go against society's unwritten laws....now it is fine to get divorced. Why shouldn't you do it? :confused:

[Pure Paradox]

Actually, I was conceived from sex out of wedlock.

But I'm still rather against it.

And I'm against abortion to the end. Abortion is evil!!!!!!

[Willy]

This is a complex question. I believe that marriage is the best place for sex, and I tell my boys that. But to say that it is the only place is pushing me a bit. To refer to the Bible on this subject is a very difficult thing because marriage is defined in such a different way than it was in the Biblical days. Life is very different. People get married at an older age today. Sex and reproduction are so radically separated today. Marriage is a lot less about economic survival today than it was in Biblical days. In some of the Biblical days, polygamy was quite common. My recommendation to people is to keep sex within the confines of a committed relationship. But don't be surprised that young adults who are waiting longer to marry and older adults who choose not to marry because of economic reasons have sex. Don't be surprised that divorced people who were very accustomed to a sexual relationship have sex as well. What is so significant is that sex be seen as the holy activity that it is. Frankly, it can be an unholy experience within marriage as well as outside of it. Having said all of this, I tell my two teenage boys that they should keep their penises to themselves until they are ready to marry!!

[scigirl]

Absolutely. Within the bible itself, there are changes
Yes, the Bible is a product of its time. Hence, there are codes of morality in it that do not apply to us today. I'm not saying we can read whatever we like into scripture, but there are definitely culturally-dictated areas.
Yes but. . . how do you personally know which parts are cultural and which parts are timeless? Why haven't Christians been adding and subtracting parts to the Book as we learn more about ourselves, as we do in any other field of knowledge like science? Why even leave the outdated stuff in there at all, because it is clearly getting in the way of Christian reform. As it always has.

When I read the Bible, it doesn't say "ok this part can be ignored in 2000 years but this part - no way jose." All of you Christians continue to argue about which parts are cultural and which parts are not. Check out the "can women be pastors" thread? A bunch of Christians say yes - times have changed. A bunch of others say "no way the Bible is clear." I see this argument as no different than the USA slave-owners using the Bible to justify slavery, and the abolishionists saying "No that part is outdated." No different. Same arguments, different issue.

Same with slavery, as you said. Slavery in Biblical times was an integral part of the culture, and could be beneficial to both master and slave. It's not the same kind of slavery that we usually think of - ie the atrocious treatment of black slaves in the American south.
Are you sure about that? Slaves throughout all of history had no choice as to what they would be doing in life. In addition, they were bred like cattle. How could that have been pleasant at any time?
But regardless, it was moraly acceptable then (Philemon anyone?) and not so now.
Why? What moral guidelines are you getting that from? Clearly not the Bible. Could it be. . . our morality today comes from something other than an ancient book? Why yes, I believe it does.

scigirl

[scigirl]

Hello Willy!

Sex and reproduction are so radically separated today. Marriage is a lot less about economic survival today than it was in Biblical days. In some of the Biblical days, polygamy was quite common.
Yes yes that's correct!

Now if only all the evangelical pastors who use the phrases "traditional marriage" and "Biblical marriage" as frequently as Ozzie Osbourne swears. . . would get this huge huge clue. Biblical marriage was. . . icky.

scigirl

[Marilyn]

well, the first time i ever had sex when i was 13.
it was me and this girl, she wanted to know what it was like. and the rest you can imagine!

Marilyn!

[TheFirstNoelle]

Okay, first of all I confess that I'm still not sure what your position is on this. Could you clarify what it is you're trying to argue?



Yes but. . . how do you personally know which parts are cultural and which parts are timeless?
That's why we're given discernment from the Holy Spirit.

Are you sure about that? Slaves throughout all of history had no choice as to what they would be doing in life. In addition, they were bred like cattle. How could that have been pleasant at any time?

Why? What moral guidelines are you getting that from? Clearly not the Bible. Could it be. . . our morality today comes from something other than an ancient book? Why yes, I believe it does.

Some of the slaves in the Bible were of Roman families. In Roman families, slaves were often treated almost as part of the family. Not totally of course. But more so than black slaves from 150 years ago. They had a huge cultural role - just read some Roman comedies. The biblical slaves that were Jewish had the choice of being freed after 7 years in slavery. However, many had families and chose to stay with the Jewish family they were serving, rather than go free. This indicates that slavery was a morally acceptable practice. In addition, if it wasn't morally acceptable, why would Paul tell Onesimus to return to his master Philemon, because it was the right thing to do?

[scigirl]

Okay, first of all I confess that I'm still not sure what your position is on this. Could you clarify what it is you're trying to argue?
As an atheist, I feel that the Bible is not a good source for morality. And that Christians don't use the Bible as a source for morality but mainly use it at their convenience.

That's why we're given discernment from the Holy Spirit.
You still didn't answer my question. Every Christian thinks he/she is right about their interpretation. Using the Holy Spirit or whatever. Yet none of them agree with each other. What side is the Holy spirit on in this debate: Should women be pastors or not? One side is arguing Biblical literalism, the other is arguing that those passages were cultural and don't apply today. Both sides claim to have the Holy Spirit on their side. So - how must we resove this issue? What resources/methods/beliefs do we use, since obviously the Bible alone is not enough to resolve this issue.

Some of the slaves in the Bible were of Roman families. In Roman families, slaves were often treated almost as part of the family. Not totally of course. But more so than black slaves from 150 years ago. They had a huge cultural role - just read some Roman comedies. The biblical slaves that were Jewish had the choice of being freed after 7 years in slavery.
Fair enough.

In addition, if it wasn't morally acceptable, why would Paul tell Onesimus to return to his master Philemon, because it was the right thing to do?
Well as an atheist, I feel that Paul was wrong about more things tha he was right.

What changed to make slavery not ok?

scigirl

[scigirl]

TheFirstNoelle,

A bit of background so that you can perhaps understand my position more clearly.

Two summers ago I visited the United Nations building in NYC. Up on the wall was the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights." There on the wall is what great men and women, from all countries, cultures and religions, came up with as the best most up-to-date guide for how we should treat each other as human beings. They talk about dignity and respect. They promote education and health, and condemn torture and barbaric acts that defile the human body and spirit. As I was standing in this great room, it dawned on me how different this reads from the Bible.

You can read them here: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/udhr.html

Now I am a couple thousand miles from NYC, and I sit here and read a group of well-meaning folks struggling to make sense out of their collection of stories termed "the Bible." Amidst stories of war, destruction, rape, pillage, slavery, polygamy, and state-sponsored murder, they attempt to find morality for today's day and age. It at once makes me laugh but deeply saddens me.

scigirl

[TheFirstNoelle]

TheFirstNoelle,

A bit of background so that you can perhaps understand my position more clearly.

Two summers ago I visited the United Nations building in NYC. Up on the wall was the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights." There on the wall is what great men and women, from all countries, cultures and religions, came up with as the best most up-to-date guide for how we should treat each other as human beings. They talk about dignity and respect. They promote education and health, and condemn torture and barbaric acts that defile the human body and spirit. As I was standing in this great room, it dawned on me how different this reads from the Bible.

You can read them here: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/udhr.html

Now I am a couple thousand miles from NYC, and I sit here and read a group of well-meaning folks struggling to make sense out of their collection of stories termed "the Bible." Amidst stories of war, destruction, rape, pillage, slavery, polygamy, and state-sponsored murder, they attempt to find morality for today's day and age. It at once makes me laugh but deeply saddens me.

scigirl

Ah okay. I had thought you were a Christian so I was really confused :)

[Yalith]

TheFirstNoelle,

A bit of background so that you can perhaps understand my position more clearly.

Two summers ago I visited the United Nations building in NYC. Up on the wall was the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights." There on the wall is what great men and women, from all countries, cultures and religions, came up with as the best most up-to-date guide for how we should treat each other as human beings. They talk about dignity and respect. They promote education and health, and condemn torture and barbaric acts that defile the human body and spirit. As I was standing in this great room, it dawned on me how different this reads from the Bible.

You can read them here: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/udhr.html

Now I am a couple thousand miles from NYC, and I sit here and read a group of well-meaning folks struggling to make sense out of their collection of stories termed "the Bible." Amidst stories of war, destruction, rape, pillage, slavery, polygamy, and state-sponsored murder, they attempt to find morality for today's day and age. It at once makes me laugh but deeply saddens me.

scigirl

Just one quick question. Are you a complete athiest? I mean do you believe there is no god in any form? or Do you think their is a God, but not in the traditional Christian form?

Just wondering. I know it's off topic.

[mikefromwichita]

If love is present I am not all that sure that a permit from the State is all that important. A legal contract yes defining the rights/obligations of the parties involved.

[mikefromwichita]

As an atheist,.......................

........................ Every Christian thinks he/she is right about their interpretation. Using the Holy Spirit or whatever. Yet none of them agree with each other. What side is the Holy spirit on in this debate: Should women be pastors or not? One side is arguing Biblical literalism, the other is arguing that those passages were cultural and don't apply today. Both sides claim to have the Holy Spirit on their side. So - how must we resove this issue? What resources/methods/beliefs do we use, since obviously the Bible alone is not enough to resolve this issue.



scigirl

The problem is neither with the Bible nor the Holy Spirit- the problem is with individual Christians either real or nominal who place their own agenda above what the Word truly teaches. Surely you realise that just saying 'hey I'm a Christian' does not make a person one???? So why do you wish to judge Christianity by those who are not its adherents? There is a lapse in logic there. Also the Bible never claims that becoming a Christian will make a person Morally Perfect in their actions of this Life. What is Promised is that those lapses will be Forgiven. Christians still Sin. That is to be expected. I may well be that I am a far more sinful person as a Christian than you are as an atheist. That however is not the valid comparision. The valid comparison is between Mike the Christian and Mike the non-Christian. each christian needs to take a hard and realistic look at the motivation for their behaviours. To the extent that we act on the basis of Hate or a need to Dominate we can be quite sure that we are not following the promptings of the Spirit and whatever Bible Hermaneutic we are using is surely a flawed one.

[IctChick]

As an atheist, I feel that the Bible is not a good source for morality. And that Christians don't use the Bible as a source for morality but mainly use it at their convenience. scigirl

[Most] Christians don't use the Bible as a source for morality but mainly use it at their convenience... you are so right... But it shouldn't be that way.

God gave us His living Word to live and abide by. -So that we may live better lives and understand what we are here for. It is a very good source for morality.... have you read it? :)

[Yalith]

[Most] Christians don't use the Bible as a source for morality but mainly use it at their convenience... you are so right... But it shouldn't be that way.

God gave us His living Word to live and abide by. -So that we may live better lives and understand what we are here for. It is a very good source for morality.... have you read it? :)
What do you mean by living word?

[Forseti]

sex with your girl or boyfriend(s) without being married is fine with me, unless it involves animals or forced stuff, or an older person with a minor. apart from that, i think people should sexually do whatever they want.

i'm 16 and sex is part of my life, i have a girlfriend that i've had for 2 years, and we love each other so yeah, we engage in various forms of intercourse, some of which might be deemed perverse or evil by some.

:sorry: *goes into hiding for tirade of CF-members that voted ''no!'' :rolleyes:

[IctChick]

What do you mean by living word?


Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Its an expression, God is alive and well today! Reading the Bible is the only way you can get to know God... so God is the living Word. ;)

[Yalith]

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Its an expression, God is alive and well today! Reading the Bible is the only way you can get to know God... so God is the living Word. ;)

Oh now I gotcha.....

[shapu]

I honestly cannot believe that I registered for a forum for the simple reason of responding to this thread...but, oh well. Here we go.


That's why we're given discernment from the Holy Spirit.


Ah, God did give us the gift of discernment, as well as free will. The ability to chose, and the ability to know right from wrong, the ability to recognize right from wrong are some of God's greatest gifts to us.

But, I think, you may have made the mistake of endorsing situational morality...unless, of course, that was your point. If the latter is the case, then I say good for you. Good for you indeed.

So many Christians these days, or at least folks who proclaim themselves to be, tend to follow the teachings of Christ as they see them - taking advantage of discernment. Very often Biblical verses are pulled from a hat and used out of context to make a point or back up a belief that in reality is as hate-filled as those whom Christ railed against. These "Christians" often subscribe to portions of what amounts to Talmudic Law, without subscribing to the entirety of it...using only the laws that suit them. That's a shame, too, because it cheapens every Christian out there, polluting the name of Christ with false morality and false dogma.

Christians such as this claim to love the sinner (insert your sin of the moment here), but hate the sin - conveniently ignoring the fact that this is God's work, and not theirs. They would much