Sex before, with or after marriage? [Archive] - Page 3

UberLutheran

30th April 2004, 10:13 PM

Does it really matter what we say or think about how, or when, or whether or not people should be having sex? Regardless of what the church thought, they were doing it in my great-grandparent's generation, my grandparent's generation, my parent's generation, my generation (although I'm still convinced it was MY generation which discovered sex, and everybody before my generation was immaculately conceived!), our children's generation, and the current generation -- and they will probably continue to have sex with each other whether we like it or not, or how many Scriptures we can quote!

Regarding marriage: a ceremony doth not a marriage make. Britney Spears and Michael Jackson have shown us THAT much.

I don't believe the church has any business operating in conjuction with the state to officiate or "legalize" relationships in the eyes of the state. In that sense, I favor civil ceremonies for ALL couples, so they can have the benefits of being able to file joint tax returns, receive joint medical and retirement benefits, designated each other as heirs for property and assets should one partner die, etc. If the church wants to solemnize or bless a relationship, it would be free to set up guidelines for which relationships it wants to bless.

If two people are living together consensually in a committed relationship, are faithful to each other and are looking out for the well-being of each other -- THAT is the marriage, whether or not one has a piece of paper stating that the relationship is "legal".

Bulldog

30th April 2004, 10:16 PM

Premarital sex is somewhat a misnomer in the Christian world. Biblically, one is not married to God when they finish some public ceremony but when they have sex for the first time. (numerous references like, "and he came in and knew her, and they became husband and wife)

Aldultery is very sinful, however. That the Bible makes clear....

UberLutheran

30th April 2004, 10:24 PM

I'm not sure how my post got placed under your comment in this thread, but I MEANT for my post to go under the OP.

It LOOKS like I was responding to you directly; but I really wasn't.

aChristianFrost

1st May 2004, 04:46 AM

It doesn't matter really what we think.

Thats why if we want to know what is important, we have to look to God for the answers.

~JustMe~

1st May 2004, 06:33 AM

I think that sex before marriage is wrong, but i also feel that too much emphasis is placed on this one issue by the church in general....

MQTA

1st May 2004, 01:25 PM

Very true. Where do you find God? If you believe that the Kingdom of Heaven is within, then you look within. Everything you do is between you and God, yes?

It doesn't matter really what we think.

Thats why if we want to know what is important, we have to look to God for the answers.

MQTA

1st May 2004, 01:28 PM

I'm glad you think that way, if you're glad you think that way. And if you should ever think any other way, that's how you'll think then, or you'll still think the same way. Either way, it's called Growth... or stagnation.. both are your own choice. As long as you're happy, depression free, and at peace, you're on the right path.

I think that sex before marriage is wrong, but i also feel that too much emphasis is placed on this one issue by the church in general....

MQTA

1st May 2004, 01:29 PM

Reminds me of an old question I've heard humorously asked....

Do Infants have has much fun in Infancy as Adults do in Adultery?

....

Adultery is very sinful, however. That the Bible makes clear....

MQTA

1st May 2004, 01:31 PM

Actuality always seems to win over theory and ideals. Ah, Reality, what a concept.

...
If two people are living together consensually in a committed relationship, are faithful to each other and are looking out for the well-being of each other -- THAT is the marriage, whether or not one has a piece of paper stating that the relationship is "legal".

Faithbuilding55

1st May 2004, 06:17 PM

I have recently stopped having sex with my boyfriend of 5 years.... One of the hardest things to do it seems like now a days.....but non the less the right thing to do. I used to not really care about the topic, until God convicted and changed my mind! :)

BeaucoupLaVie

1st May 2004, 07:52 PM

It seems that many people aren't reading the directions that come with Life. We are created for a purpose, if someone isn't doing what they are supposed to be doing, then its gonna hurt.

Just like we are told not to run with scissors, so God says, don't play with Sex. Scissors have a purpose... but you could cut yourself if you aren't careful.

You hit the nail right on the head, aChristianFrost!

How can a person look at the past, then look at the present, then see where the results are taking this society, and even ask this question? God is a very practical God. He has a reason for everything.

On the surface, tucked away in our little day-to-day lives, it's easy to buy into the reasoning of sex before marriage. I know, because it wasn't that long ago that I was a master at this kind of self-deception. Fortunately, I've since come to realize that this kind of reasoning is very short-sighted and slightly self-serving.

I'll admit that things have never been "perfect", in any era of time, as we know it, but at the rate this world is going, however, the apparent destination is not where God desires us to be. Instead of getting worse, as Christians, we're supposed to be getting better. I say this because most people in this country are professed Christians.

Let's take a look at what the Harris Polls have to say:

TABLE 2

SELF-DESCRIBED AS CHRISTIANS

"Would you describe yourself as a Christian or not?"

Total %

Described self as Christian

83

Not a Christian

16

Don’t know/Refused

1

Looking at the numbers, we then have to ask ourselves "What happened? If so many people are Christians, then why is the moral condition of this country going down the tubes?"

There are a number of reasons, which I won't go into right now, but mainly, I would say that the problem stems from accepting the short-sighted, self-centered, secular rationalizations. There are different forms of rationale, and all can be quite convincing. All you need to do is sit in a courtroom and hear one attorney's case for the defendant, and another attorney's case against the defendant, to see that both sides can make a very good case. Just because something sounds logical, however, does not mean that the conclusion is for the good of all concerned, especially for quality survival of the human race.

There are some of those in our society who have finally come to this realization. Sure, there are some things in the Bible that were obviously culture-based, and were naturally woven into Judaism and carried over into Christianity, such as having slaves and making women subordinate, how a person wears their hair, or jewelry, length of beard, etc. Thank God most of us have evolved to the point of realizing the difference, where these things are concerned. However, having sex before marriage isn't one of them.

Stressing certain guidelines for sexual behavior was very apparent in the Old Testament, and were changed only slightly in the New Testament. Even so, if you're dead-set on extracting a few sections of the Bible to justify the sex, then by all means, you'll find them. Nevertheless, when the Bible is read with the understanding of seeing the big picture, and taking the book in its entire context, an intelligent person (with the Holy Spirit's assistance) can only conclude that it was not meant for any Godly person to have sex before marriage. All you have to do is look around and see the results of not following it. If you want to go into a state of denial, and play around with the definition of marriage, have at it. That's your choice. But the truth of the matter lays not only in scripture, but in the consequences of not adhering to those standards, which are now staring us right in the face...an unfathomable amount of children born out of wedlock, with no fathers for foundation (lowered standards of morality have also raised the divorce rate), STD's skyrocketing, etc.

In order for humanity to survive, we must adhere to certain standards of behavior. The standards we choose will either make or break the future quality life on this earth, and the ultimate existence of us all.

In this day in age, I'll admit it can be challenging at times, to remain pure. But if we're having THAT hard of a time, then we need to seriously re-examine and upgrade our relationship with God, in Christ, as believers. For it is written that we can do all things through Christ, which strengthens us. Those are not just pretty words. They're for real, and they have power for anyone who takes them for what they're worth.

I realize that it's easy for someone to make the case for abstinence prior to marriage, if they're already married, which is why I am choosing to speak out. You see, I've been celibate now, by choice, for 10 years, and I've been divorced for longer than that. Sure, if I wanted to I could easily rationalize and justify my way to giving in to the secular lifestyle of sex. I'm certainly no prude, and I'm easy-going, open-minded, and like to have fun. But I know where to draw the line, and that line is quite clear. I hadn't intended on making this so personal, but I feel that the truth can be most helpful to those who are teetering on the edge, or even those who have jumped over on the other side.

There are two main reasons that come to mind about it all:

Since I've been striving as best I can, to be as God wishes me to be, in every way possible, I've been reaping great rewards. Firmly standing on the word of faith, I now operate in the realm of His heavenly kingdom, which enables me to receive His continual flow of blessings and promises. This is where joy and success abounds! It isn't without its challenges, but even though things can be a little tempting at times, in no way do I wish to move myself out of His protective realm, and into the domain of hardship and misery.
Also, when I finally one day stand before God, and He asks me, "When you finally knew the truth, did your behavior (on the whole) reflect as an example for others, toward the betterment of humanity's existence, or did it mirror the cause of destruction?
Bottom line, the world may be out of step with us, but as Christians we should not be out of step with God. To stay synchronized and in harmony with His word, we need to put Him first in our lives, and gain our confidence from Him, instead of feeling like we're "missing out" by abstaining. On the contrary, it's the world who is missing out. We should pity them, instead of attempting to gain their approval. Our esteem and confidence is greatest when it comes from Him, rather than secular peer groups.

Instead of asking ourselves what we can do to get around morality, let's ask what real morality can do to further the progress of humanity so that we may realize God's dream for us all.

BeaucoupLaVie

1st May 2004, 08:42 PM

Did I post my letter twice? If I did, I apologize.:blush:

Neenie

1st May 2004, 09:32 PM

I used to justify sex outside marriage In this very thread, God pointed out to me that any sex outside marriage is wrong, I used the old excuse that we are married in God's eyes, we are committed and all that Jazz. But as I started to grow In Christ I learnt that we were justifying sin for our own selfish gratification. that was wrong because we were mocking God. I encourage Christians to try and repent, It's hard when you don't believe It's a sin, but you have to least try. It states in Corinthians somewhere we are to be pure until marriage. Thats not advice thats a command.

Satan Is a master of deception and he Is working hard in these last days to deceive Christians into accepting sin. We must stand firm in our faith.

~JustMe~

1st May 2004, 10:13 PM

You hit the nail right on the head, aChristianFrost!
:)....

JillLars

3rd May 2004, 12:18 AM

I used the old excuse that we are married in God's eyes, we are committed and all that Jazz. But as I started to grow In Christ I learnt that we were justifying sin for our own selfish gratification.

Pleaes keep in mind that it is not an excuse for everyone. Granted, there are many people out there who treat sex carefully, but there are others (myself included) who have made promises to God and intend to keep those promises. I fail to see how being faithful to God and to one's spouse is mocking God in any way shape or form. If one is trying to fool God into believing they'll keep a promise, then yes, they are mocking God, cause we can't lie to God.

I just wanted to point out that the "We're married in God's eyes" statement is not always an "old excuse." There are people who actually believe that, and hold to that standard.

Neenie

3rd May 2004, 02:21 AM

Pleaes keep in mind that it is not an excuse for everyone. Granted, there are many people out there who treat sex carefully, but there are others (myself included) who have made promises to God and intend to keep those promises. I fail to see how being faithful to God and to one's spouse is mocking God in any way shape or form. If one is trying to fool God into believing they'll keep a promise, then yes, they are mocking God, cause we can't lie to God.

I just wanted to point out that the "We're married in God's eyes" statement is not always an "old excuse." There are people who actually believe that, and hold to that standard.

Jillars, I believe you are sincere In your relationship and with God. God Is interested In your love and commitment for each other, and thats what matters most.

In my situation the more we studied the word the more closer we got to God. God put us through some tough trials and we depended on him a little more, and we started feeling guilty as we continued in sexual relations with each other, at that point we decided to stop. Guilt is not of God so we decided to wait until marriage, we made this decision about two months ago and it hasn't been easy. We now believe that God will only recognize our marriage vows when we do it in the presence of the church and God together, then our marriage will be official in the eyes of God.

I pray that God continue's work in you both, and that what ever happens is in his will.

BeaucoupLaVie also made some good points how it is hard to be sexually pure in this age, but when we put him first in our lives, he will work in us.

Janine

Miaka-Chan

3rd May 2004, 10:49 AM

In my situation the more we studied the word the more closer we got to God. God put us through some tough trials and we depended on him a little more, and we started feeling guilty as we continued in sexual relations with each other, at that point we decided to stop. Guilt is not of God so we decided to wait until marriage, we made this decision about two months ago and it hasn't been easy. We now believe that God will only recognize our marriage vows when we do it in the presence of the church and God together, then our marriage will be official in the eyes of God.

Janine We did the same thing which was very difficult after 2 previous years having a sexual relationship. We didn't always succeed. My prayers are w/ you as you endevour to do this. God will bless you for it.

BeaucoupLaVie

3rd May 2004, 10:50 AM

Regardless of our genuine intentions in a sexually committed, pre-marital relationship; regardless of how much we pray or study the Bible, regardless of our heart-felt commitment toward our mate, and in spite of our close relationship with our Father, if we live a lifestyle of sex before marriage (a union which is biblically recognized by the church), the very existence of that lifestyle serves as a continued promotion and progression of the social sickness in this world....the unbelievable mass of unwed mothers and people perishing of STD's, and children who are also raised to accept and rationalize the very lifestyle which is destroying mankind.

This was not the case before sex was socially accepted outside of marriage, prior to the 1960's. There was only a minute percentage of the population who fell under that category, and STD's were at an all-time low. Now, all you have to do is look around, and you'll see the results of that social acceptance.

Each of us has a responsibility to live our life in such a way, which will prove as a symbolic example for others to emulate. When we sanction sex outside of marriage, we only serve to open satan's world-wide can of worms, and set off a domino-effect of what has now quickly mushroomed into global acceptance of sexual sin. As a result, the names of those who continue to make excuses and think that their case is somehow an exception, will nevertheless be listed on God's heavenly statistics report as ones who took part in the destruction.

Theopneustos3_16

3rd May 2004, 06:27 PM

I'm not so sure why we're asking each other's opinions on this when the Bible has the ultimate authority on all teachings and doctrines (including our opinions). The Bible makes it very clear that fornication is sin, even with the intention of a monogomous relationship. Paul says that not only do we sin against God, but we sin against our own bodies when we commit sexual sins. So, because the Bible says it's wrong, it's wrong, there can be no justifying arguement for fornication if a book divinely inspired says it is wrong.
God Bless

JillLars

4th May 2004, 12:35 AM

Granted, there are many people out there who treat sex carefully, but there are others (myself included) who have made promises to God and intend to keep those promises.

Just to correct myself, the first sentence in that line is supposed to say there are many people who treat sex carelessly, not carefully *duh*

Janine- I am glad to hear that God has been working in your lives as a couple. I hope things continue to go well. :) I'll be praying!

bound2him

4th May 2004, 12:45 AM

I was talking to someone the other day that claimed to be a serious christian, but then said in the next sentence that his sex life wasnt anything to do with god and he would before marriage if he wanted to.... i find the same thing with other topics, it seems more and more that these days people are calling themselves christian but not really caring much about what that really means

vrunca

4th May 2004, 06:15 AM

there is no better wedding gift that you can give to your spouse than your virginity! and it will only make the marrage stonger!...Abstinance make the heart grow fonder!

God Bless!!

MQTA

4th May 2004, 08:48 AM

I wonder if there's a study on divorce rates and virginity going into marriage, both by M and F. Most of the divorcees I know all waited until they got married the first time, many were only ever with their First boy/girlfriend, and some never even dated others.

Everyone has to make their own choices, and live with them. Statements about how Others should live their life are mostly useless.. people do what they do, anyway, and everyone has to make their own choices or they'll just blame others for their decisions, consciously or subconsciously.

In my teens I thought one way, in my twenties, another, and since my 30s another. Time, age, experience, and learning/growth all cause changes... or stagnation. It all comes down to personal choice and living with your own decisions.

aChristianFrost

7th May 2004, 06:03 AM

Everyone has to make their own choices, and live with them.

True. But some people believe that what you do in this life echoes in eternity.... hey... I think thats from Gladiator. Anyway, the point is, that the choice you make in this life doesn't stop here, it has eternal consequences. Christians are telling you what God wants because they don't want you to suffer the bad consequences, especially since someone has already taken the consequences of those who will accept that He has - Jesus.

The buck doesn't stop with us, so it doesn't matter what WE think. The buck stops with God, so it only matters what He thinks. Its like if you were in court. You could say as much as you like how you don't believe that you did anything wrong, that it was your choice to make and you made it, but the Judge is gonna say, well I think it's wrong, so you are going to get what you deserve.

There are a couple things we have to remember in this discussion. Firstly, that sex outside of marriage is a sin, God says so. Whether it seems fine to us or not, doesn't matter. Secondly, we've all sinned and we have all got a debt to pay. Thirdly, we're bankrupt, and we can't pay it ourselves. Finally, God pays the debt of sin through His Son, Jesus Christ, to those who believe in Him as Saviour and as Lord.

So for those who have never had sex outside of marriage, awesome! Continue to please God in every area of your life. To those who have had sex outside of marriage, rejoice! God has supplied Jesus to take the penalty for you. :clap:

pelham

7th May 2004, 07:37 AM

I did not have sex with the man that I believed would be my husband. He was as afraid of the idea as I was. I know I could not love him more to this day.

I am sure also that in the years to come the continued existance of our love will prove that waiting is the best way.

We were able to be clear headed to an extent to managable by others that allow sex to become a part of the picture. It connects you believe it or not in a way that is best dealt with by a loving husband and wife bond.

:wave: :prayer:

RhetorTheo

7th May 2004, 08:16 AM

bluenova

7th May 2004, 10:56 AM

Neenie

7th May 2004, 11:44 AM

I think the point is that you should love each other in the eyes of god, god is love and love is the key

The bible cannot be taken at face value, it has to be interpreted, and this is my interpretation

Try Interpreting this :)

Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 1 Corinthians 7:2 -

bluenova

7th May 2004, 12:02 PM

Try Interpreting this :)

Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 1 Corinthians 7:2 -

Aye, But if you read the whole chapter and revelations, celebacey is the way, but if we were all celabete, there would be no human beings??

It also talks about the husband owning the wifes body and things like that.
Which today in western society would not acceptable

What I mean by interpret, is you need to put yourself into the time when the bible was written, a time when women were suppressed and a time when disease was easily spread

We move forward in thinking but unfortunately the bible cannot move forward with us, which is why I don't think we should take what's said as face value

Yours in Christ

WWJDForaklondikebar

7th May 2004, 02:16 PM

If you dont have sex before marriage how are you going to know if they are any good in the sack? You dont want to marry a dead fish, right?

Neenie

8th May 2004, 03:40 AM

Aye, But if you read the whole chapter and revelations, celebacey is the way, but if we were all celabete, there would be no human beings??
How can you base that on this argument? It say's there Is nothing wrong with marriage! In fact God actually blesses marriage....you can't just use whatever parts of the bible you want and ignore the rest.

Genesis 2:24,For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Heb. 13:4, "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be "undefiled"; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge."

It also talks about the husband owning the wifes body and things like that. Which today in western society would not acceptabl

You mean this verse? 1 Corinthians 7.4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but "also" to his wife.

What I mean by interpret, is you need to put yourself into the time when the bible was written, a time when women were suppressed and a time when disease was easily spread

Disease Is spread because of sin, And I don't think God agrees with woman being suppressed..

We move forward in thinking but unfortunately the bible cannot move forward with us, which is why I don't think we should take what's said as face value

I am very sorry but I dissagree with you :sigh:

insub2

8th May 2004, 08:35 AM

I like how the "no" has a exclamation point. Because you know that if someone is opposed to extramarragital sex, they are REALLY against extramarital sex.

bluenova

8th May 2004, 12:11 PM

How can you base that on this argument? It say's there Is nothing wrong with marriage! In fact God actually blesses marriage....you can't just use whatever parts of the bible you want and ignore the rest.

Genesis 2:24,For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Heb. 13:4, "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be "undefiled"; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge."

You mean this verse? 1 Corinthians 7.4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but "also" to his wife.

Disease Is spread because of sin, And I don't think God agrees with woman being suppressed..

I am very sorry but I dissagree with you :sigh:

You seem very angry Neenie, Sorry If I made you feel angry I don't want to argue with you, I was just giving my view on the matter as everyone else has done, as christians we should be making an example in the world to make peace not war, so I shall drop it now

Yours in Christ

Neenie

8th May 2004, 12:54 PM

You seem very angry Neenie, Sorry If I made you feel angry I don't want to argue with you, I was just giving my view on the matter as everyone else has done, as christians we should be making an example in the world to make peace not war, so I shall drop it now

Yours in Christ

I'm sorry I was a bit hard on you. please forgive me :pray:

Lets make love, not war! :pink:

God bless

ready4god2513

8th May 2004, 04:10 PM

Ok...so as we all know, this is a huge controvercy among Christians and the unbelievers alike...so that should answer our question right there. Christians are called to a higher standard than that of the world. If some of those that belong to the WORLD think that it is immoral, then shouldn't we as CHRISTIANS know that it is wrong? I really don't understand how it can be that we have debate when it is clearly in the bible. Someone said that it may not apply because the bible is talking about a specific time when there are problems and whatnot. Well, I don't think that God works like that. If you remember (1 Chronicles 13:9) when the people were carying the Ark of the Covenant, and it dropped and Uzzah reached out to steady it, he ended up dying. We are sort of like that...except there may not be any immediate punishment. I'm not so sure if people brought it up...but we also do have the ten commandments which specifically states "You shall not commit adultery." (exodus 20:14) (Adultry: Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.)

Can we really come to the conclusion that it is ok to have sex outside of marriage? I hope not...

Brandon

EmAgDnImGiRl

8th May 2004, 06:09 PM

This is a good poll. I think that if you love someone enough you will wait. I am inlove with someone right now, and I want to wait for him. I would hate to find out that he had sex befor me. I mean think of it that way. You are saving yourself for that right person, and if you end up being with he or she. You then fin out they are not a virgin. Kinda upseting.!

faithfulwarrior

9th May 2004, 12:53 AM

tqpix

11th May 2004, 12:31 AM

1 CORINTHIANS 7:1-9
1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

steelmagnolia

11th May 2004, 01:36 PM

Its wrong..The Bible says that we should flee from sexual immorality!.. That means, amoungst other things, no sex before marriage! Ya'll shouldn't be unsure about it, read your bible and it will show you! We need to be an example to the rest of the world and be set apart. Our bodies are temples of the holy spirit, and God calls us to stay pure and holy and set apart for Him! Sex before marriage is wrong if God says it is. Simple as that. It doesn't matter how much you love them or how much you believe that you will get married to them in the future, God says its wrong. Because He knows whats best, we should not justify it.

Godbless you allEXACTLY!
Read what the bible says about 1) adultry and 2) Fornication

For those that think it's ok to have sex before marriage and outside of marriage, you are thumbing your nose up at God. What do you think HE thinks about that???

For those that do not know if adultry or fornicaiton is wrong or not, :eek: READ God's word!! ;) You WILL find God's thoughts, commandments regarding this issue in HIS word.

Neenie

11th May 2004, 02:01 PM

For those that think it's ok to have sex before marriage and outside of marriage, you are thumbing your nose up at God. What do you think HE thinks about that???

Sorry, but I think you are being a little too harsh here.... :sigh:

They need spiritual guidance and prayer, I once justified Pre-marital sex on this thread, but I now know what I was doing was wrong and I have repented. 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 states to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. That sounds clear enough to me..

steelmagnolia

11th May 2004, 02:21 PM

Sorry, but I think you are being a little too harsh here.... :sigh:

They need spiritual guidance and prayer, I once justified Pre-marital sex on this thread, but I now know what I was doing was wrong and I have repented. 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 states to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. That sounds clear enough to me..I'm sorry you feel this way, but if someone knows in their heart and mind that adultry and fornication are a sin, yet they continue, then yes, they are essentially thumbing their nose up at God - sinning against God. Yes, that is a cold harsh fact.

In today's society, it seems that sex outside of marriage is common. Take many of the 'teen' movies produced. Many depict sex outside the bounds of marriage as commonplace. Some movies have sex outside of marriage as the actual topic of the movie. What are your thoughts?
I did not read that someone was asking for spiritual quidance and prayer. I took the poll and read the question, thus answering it.

Sometimes the truth is just very difficult to hear.

Jem

11th May 2004, 02:38 PM

I believe that sex outside of a marriage is a sin, and I do not do that, But if someone else chooses to have sex outside of a marriage, I believe that is between that person and God. I am not here to judge. I do not walk in other peoples' shoes and I cannot judge. That is for God to do.

steelmagnolia

11th May 2004, 03:16 PM

Yes, God will be the one to judge them but if I'm asked my opinion, like in the beginning of this thread, I can answer using what the bible has to say about adultry and fornication. I am in no way judging but simply answering based on God's word.

EX 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adulty.

1 Cor 6:13
Meats for the belly,and the belly for meats; but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1 Thes 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

AngelusSax

11th May 2004, 07:01 PM

They need spiritual guidance and prayer, I once justified Pre-marital sex on this thread, but I now know what I was doing was wrong and I have repented. 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 states to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. That sounds clear enough to me..
Marriage need not be recognized by the State to be valid in God's eyes.

I don't condone "pre-marital" sex. But I believe that once you have sex, you are married to that person. Of course, this means:
No Screwing Around! Pick one and stay with him or her.

Unique

11th May 2004, 07:35 PM

Sex outside of marriage is wrong. No ifs ands or buts. But Christians should not see someone in sexual sin and shun them. They need our love, not condemnation.

Neenie

12th May 2004, 03:58 AM

Marriage need not be recognized by the State to be valid in God's eyes.

I don't condone "pre-marital" sex. But I believe that once you have sex, you are married to that person. Of course, this means:
No Screwing Around! Pick one and stay with him or her.
Hi AngelusSax,

The thing is, it mentions In Matthew 5.31 that If a man divorces his wife, he must give her a certificate of divorce, (It mentions certificates). The Bible also states we are to obey the laws of the land (romans 13) Which means no one Is officialy married until they get the certificate..... :(

But you do bring up a good point though, I think It say's somewhere about two becoming one flesh, anyone remember that verse? I don't really understand why God would see It as evil if you pick your partner for life, I don't really understand why it is immoral. i'm not trying to justify anything, Just asking a question :)

Smi1eWarrior

12th May 2004, 06:59 AM

I think sex before marriage is O.K if you are going to be them long term, you need to know what the person is like before you marry them.
You don't need to know what your partner will be like before you are married and you dotn need to worry if he will be bad in bed. Cos if you trust God to bring the right person along for you to marry and pray that you are with the right person God has got for you. Then God will have put you with a person who is going to satisfy ALL your needs inclluding sexual needs.

trust God, and trust his word.

Mara :)

JillLars

12th May 2004, 07:32 AM

The thing is, it mentions In Matthew 5.31 that If a man divorces his wife, he must give her a certificate of divorce, (It mentions certificates). The Bible also states we are to obey the laws of the land (romans 13) Which means no one Is officialy married until they get the certificate..... :(

But you do bring up a good point though, I think It say's somewhere about two becoming one flesh, anyone remember that verse? I don't really understand why God would see It as evil if you pick your partner for life, I don't really understand why it is immoral. i'm not trying to justify anything, Just asking a question

I go by the same thoughts as AngelusSax...

the only problem with that is, many people do use it to justify their behavior. It's very easy to say that you are married in God's eyes, but its also easy to think of life after that person leaves.

To give an example for myself: When I moved in with my fiance, we had already committed ourselves to one another and to God for life, however...I had a lot of people tell me how good it was to live together so we'd know "for sure" if we really wanted to get married. It's hard to explain it to people, but it isn't just a trial thing, we have never viewed it as such, and never will, we consider ourselves married and that is something we strictly adhere to. Unfortunately, lots of people don't, and that gives some of us a bad name.

It makes sense to get legally married, for many different civil reasons, however, God knows our hearts and he knows if two people have married one another. There are plenty of legally married people out there who have very un-godly marriages. In biblical times not everyone had a wedding ceremony or had it made official by the government. In fact, Adam and Eve, the first marriage ever, never had a wedding, or a legal certificate saying they were married, they just were, and they stuck to it (unfortunately many people, married or not don't stick to it now days). Here is an interesting verse in genesis:

Genesis 24:67
And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife;
Apparently all it took was for them to be married was to go into the tent and "take" each other.

Sorry, this is long, I'm basically trying to say that not many people value marriage today, and especially not in the same sense that they did back in biblical times. In biblical times, 2 people had sex, and they were considered married (ceremony or not). Today, people have sex all the time, one night stands, relationships with people they never intend to marry. It's sad, but we (as Christians) do need to hold ourselves to a higher standard, and there is more than one way of doing that. :)

Neenie

12th May 2004, 11:32 AM

It makes sense to get legally married, for many different civil reasons, however, God knows our hearts and he knows if two people have married one another. There are plenty of legally married people out there who have very un-godly marriages. In biblical times not everyone had a wedding ceremony or had it made official by the government. In fact, Adam and Eve, the first marriage ever, never had a wedding, or a legal certificate saying they were married, they just were, and they stuck to it (unfortunately many people, married or not don't stick to it now days).

Yes Jill that Is sad, In that many marriages don't work out. And yes things were different 3000 years ago, Adam and Eve didn't have legal certificate's back then. But I think God really values a legal marriage in this day and age, because it Is official in the presence of God, the church, the ceremony, It is then recognized officially as marriage in Gods eyes.

ForeverBeingForgiven

12th May 2004, 11:48 AM

No, it's not ok to have sex before marriage. I did, and deeply regret it, but the man I had sex with and I are still together and plan on getting married someday (not as a result of what we did, but because we love each other). It's a mistake God will forgive, but it isn't right.

littlebrit

12th May 2004, 12:54 PM

I lost mine with a guy I dated for over a year. I wish I wouldn't have done that at all. I think it is best to wait until marriage.

Neenie

13th May 2004, 02:06 AM

You don't need to know what your partner will be like before you are married and you dotn need to worry if he will be bad in bed. Cos if you trust God to bring the right person along for you to marry and pray that you are with the right person God has got for you. Then God will have put you with a person who is going to satisfy ALL your needs inclluding sexual needs.

Well, I already mentioned That I changed my views on that, but probably not firm enough. That is the worlds way of sex and relationships, to try before you buy, and since I have grown in the lord, that whole view changed. I believe that God chooses our partner for us, I currently have a boyfriend and we have been going out for a while, but had sexual relations (which i deeply regret) because sex outside marriage is completely selfish and wrong. why? because God has not yet confirmed it, and does not yet recognize our relationship until we get Married. It doesn't matter how hard we tried to justify to say we are married, No one is married in Gods eyes until It is confirmed by the church. that is reality! So my partner and I are waiting for marriage, when it is officially recognized. I deeply regret for being promiscuous in the past because God Is going to judge me for that, I accept that i he could send me to hell for it too! But all I can do now is try my best to live a righteous life before God and continue to grow in Christ. The bible say's to flee sexual immorality that is not advice that is a command. No one Is married until they are officially married! It makes me angry when i think of how i used to justify it, makes me feel ashamed. If Christ was on earth now, and asked if we are married? the answer is no!

Choir Boy Martin

13th May 2004, 02:19 PM

well then you'd be wrong and need to read your Bible.I've taken this from an article i read about this subject, and i agree with it wholeheartedly - i think that sex before marriage is ok, not a sin.

This article says elsewhere that althought things like this are not a sin, God encouraged us not to do it

If an unmarried man has sex with an unmarried woman, is it adultery?
No, they were commanded to marry each other (Exodus 22:16-17, Deuteronomy 22:28).

Scripture says that a virgin is holy in both body and spirit (1 Corinthians 7:34). Therefore, it is God's Will that one be a virgin, and it would be a sin to not be a virgin before marriage.

Answer: Yes, a virgin is holy is God's eyes, and it is pleasing to God when a man and woman keep themselves pure, and remain virgins, until they are married. However, this does not mean it is a sin to do otherwise.
Just because something is "holy," it does not mean that when something is not holy, it's a sin. To be "holy" means to be dedicated to God. Here are some examples of things being "holy," yet these same things are not a "sin" when unholy. When Moses stood before the Lord on Mount Sinai, God told Moses to take off his shoes because he was standing on "holy ground" (Exodus 3:5). Does that mean all other ground on the earth is sinful? Just because it's not holy? No. There are seven days in the week. The seventh day of the week is the Sabbath, and it is a "holy day" (Exodus 35:2). Does that mean the other six days of the week are sinful just because they are not "holy" or "dedicated"? No. The clothing that Aaron wore were "holy garments" (Exodus 28:2). Does that mean everybody else's garments are sinful just because it's not "holy"? No. If somebody uses something other than "holy anointing oil" (Exodus 30:25), does that mean they will sin if they use vegetable oil, olive oil, or other oils? No. If a bread is not "shewbread" (Matthew 12:4), or "hallowed bread" (1 Samuel 21:4), does that mean all other bread is sinful because it's not holy? No. If a man does not "sanctify his house to be holy unto the LORD" (Leviticus 27:14), does that mean every other house in the world which is not sanctified is sinful? No. Likewise, just because the state of a "virgin" is holy, it does not mean the state of a non-virgin is sinful. Especially if God does not say it is sinful, or have any penalties imposed upon someone once they become a non-virgin.It may still be against God's Will, however:

But if somebody does something against God's Will, is that not a sin?

Answer: No, not necessarily. It is true that all sins go against God's Will, yes; but not all things that go against God's Will are sinful. For example, God's Law says, "Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an *** together" (Deuteronomy 22:10). Now, what is the penalty mentioned in scripture if somebody goes against God's Will and plows with an ox and an *** together? Well, there is no penalty mentioned, which means there is no blood shed, which means it is not a sin. However, there are consequences.
A "yoke" is something fixed together on the neck of oxen for the purpose of binding them so that they might draw the plow. The reason God forbids an ox and an *** to be yoked together is because they would plow in different directions, and the farmer would not get much work done! But, not getting any work done because of this is not a penalty, it is a consequence. This is also the reason why God commanded His people to be separate from unbelievers, and why Jesus commanded us to be yoked to Him (Matthew 11:29-30). If we do His will, He will guide our steps. If we do our own will, we will pull in different directions. The One who created us knows what's best for us. He tells us what is best for us in His Word. But if we don't do what is best for us, it does not necessarily mean it is a sin to do so. Another example; God's Law says, "When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof" (Deuteronomy 22:8). If you had a flat roof with access from the inside to the roof, and people will be spending time on the roof, God commanded that we put a railing around the roof. What is the penalty for failing to do this? Well, there is no penalty mentioned, which means there is no blood shed, which means it is not a sin. However, there are consequences. One of which may be that someone may fall off and be killed, in which case the one who failed to put the railing on the roof would suffer the consequences of manslaughter. The command to put a railing on the roof is designed to prevent a wrong from happening, but it is not a sin if one disobeys this command. If somebody fell off a roof with no railing, the one in the wrong would be penalized, not for failing to put a railing around the roof, but for manslaughter.

Therefore, although I believe that as God has no made it a sin to have sex before marriage, then it is OK - if we go ahead with it and something happens, like we get the girl pregnant, we have to live with the consequences. However, he will not punish us as it is not a sin.

There is a difference between a punishment and a consequence. For example, when my brother was 3 years old, he moved a chair over to an oven and stood on the chair. One of the burners were on and it was hot. His father was watching him, and had told him several times not to touch the burner, but my brother's curiosity was too strong. My brother stretched out his hand to touch the burner, but his father did not try to stop him this time. After he touched the burner, he withdrew his hand very rapidly because of the pain. His father looked at him and said, very slowly, "hot." My brother looked at him and repeated, "hot." From that moment on, my brother knew that if his father said, "hot," then he would get hurt. This was a learning experience for him. Now, let me ask you this. Was it his father's will that he touch that burner? No, his father did not want his son to get burned. Did my brother sin by disobeying his father's will? No. When my brother got burned, was that a punishment for his disobedience? No. Was it a consequence? Yes. Therefore, if we disobey our Father's Will, there will be consequences. But these consequences are not necessarily a punishment for sinning against him.

Sorry this post was a bit long, just quoted what i wanted to get my point across :)

guitargalmeg

13th May 2004, 06:18 PM

^^^oh goodness....what is this world coming to? no..it's not okay

hrodas

13th May 2004, 06:24 PM

its ok, i understand what you wrote. but will summarize my opinion in only two sentences.
1) you are wrong (no offense intended), if two unmarried persons have sex, they are fornicating, and that is a sin because it is idolatry.
2) you are supposed to wait to get married before having Sex, although you can do it before, it is better for you to wait and not let your urges control you. 1 Cor 6:23 and 10:12
take it for me. i'm 29 and unmarried. i am proud to say that i have waited all this time for the marriage. it is not that i'm a looser who cant get a girl. of course there had been chances, but I thank and praise God because i have been able to take the right choices.
God Bless you.
:)

Choir Boy Martin

13th May 2004, 07:18 PM

no offence taken, i can perfectly understand your view. i am trying to ask God about this, for i know that He will show me the way to go. Something to think about, sorry to quote it again, but i find it useful, the article also says this:

But let us now examine the consequences of an unmarried man and an unmarried virgin that have sex willfully with each other. What is the penalty? Is there the shedding of blood of man, as in the case of adultery? No. Well, is there the shedding of blood of an animal, as in the case of theft? No. Well, just what kind of penalty was there for having sex with an unmarried woman? Well, there is no penalty! As a matter of fact, they were commanded, by God himself, to marry each other (Exodus 22:16-17, Deuteronomy 22:28)! To marry! And to marry a virgin required a payment of fifty shekels of silver to her father as well. There was no shedding of blood required! Why not? Could it be that God did not consider it a sin for an unmarried man and an unmarried woman to have sex together? After all, all sins always required the shedding of blood. Otherwise, it is not a sin in God's eyes.

But, you may ask, "What is the penalty if that man and woman do not get married, like God commands?" Well, the father could utterly refuse to give his daughter away to a man, and then that couple would not have to get married. But the man still had to pay the father "money according to the dowry of virgins" (Exodus 22:16-17), which was "fifty shekels of silver," (Deuteronomy 22:28), the same price as if he did marry her, and then the man and woman did not have to get married! They were "off the hook"! That's all! But keep in mind, this payment to the father is not a penalty!

Scripture explicitly says why this dowry price was paid to the father, so there is no need for conjecture. It was not to be paid because of a penalty, but "...because he hath humbled her" (Deuteronomy 22:29). Any man who humbles a virgin, whether it be a man who marries her after going through the betrothal period, a man who marries her without going through betrothal, a man who marries her because he had sex with her first, or even a man who had sex with a virgin without marrying her, all men pay this dowry price to the father for the same reason; "Because he hath humbled her." It is not a penalty. (Note: one shekel of silver was equivalent to 4 days wages. Therefore, 50 shekels of silver would be equivalent to 200 days wages).

How about the woman in this case? Was there any penalty for her willingly sleeping with a man before marriage? Well, there was no penalty at all! There was no shedding of blood on either her part or on the part of the man who slept with her. In other words, to have sex with an unmarried woman is not considered a sin against God! The land was not considered unclean after this act. If one considers this act a sin against God, then we have to change the established scriptural truth that all sins require the shedding of blood. We have to change God's Truth to fit our pre-conceived ideas. But, we all know it is wrong to do that. It is much easier to accept scripture for what it says, rather than try to make it say something it does not say. And, unlike rape, one cannot claim this act is "theft," because if somebody willfully gives something to another, it is not theft to take what another willfully offers.

You may ask, "Well, what happens if the man who sleeps with the woman refuses to marry her?" Well, there is no penalty mentioned! No shedding of blood. As a matter of fact, there is another law of God that also commands a man and woman to marry. We can learn what happens in this case by going to that passage.

In Deuteronomy 25:5-10, God's Law states that if a woman's husband dies, and has no child, then the husband's brother must marry her and become her husband. This is Law! Now, what is the penalty if this man disobeys God and refuses to marry her? Is this a sin? Does his blood have to be shed? Does the blood of an animal have to be shed for this defiance? Well, let's see. Verses 9 and 10 state the penalty that must be inflicted on this man. The woman, in the presence of the elders, is to "loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face" (verse 9)! And his name shall be called, "The house of him that hath his shoe loosed" (verse 10). That's it! The act of spitting, whether in or before the face, marked the strong contempt the woman felt for the man who had slighted her. And it appears that the man was disgraced in Israel. However, there was no shedding of blood involved, because there is no sin involved in refusing to marry a woman that God commanded to marry. Remember, God does not "force" people to marry against their will.

You may ask, "Well, what happens if the man refuses to pay the father the dowry price?" Well, there is no penalty imposed on the man in this passage for refusing to pay the father this price. However, one can accuse him of theft in this case, since he owed the father a debt and did not pay it, and he would be penalized according to the theft of money. However, if he was a man after God, he would marry her, and at the very least, pay the dowry price to her father (this is why we should not be yoked with unbelievers).

Notice, too, that only an unmarried virgin was commanded to marry, not an unmarried woman who was not a virgin. This dowry price only applied to unmarried women who were virgins, not to unmarried women who were not virgins. That is why it is called, in scripture, "dowry of virgins" (Exodus 22:17). Once a woman is no longer a virgin, there are no more payments to be made to the father. There is even a maxim of law which states, "The law favors dower; it is the reward of chastity." In addition, this helps prevent the father from making a harlot out of his daughter, since he cannot get any more money from another man if he sleeps with her.

But either way, there is no penalty mentioned in scripture for having sex with an unmarried woman, whether she was a virgin or a non-virgin. That is, unless you consider marriage a penalty to atone for ones sins?! But scripture says only the shedding of blood can atone for sins, not marriage. Marriage is not a penalty!

Oh well, i will just have to let the grace of God let me find the true path to follow as regards this! and thankyou for responding, it is good to have somewhere to openly discuss things like this - i'm a new member here, and its great! thankyou!

hrodas

14th May 2004, 03:07 PM

but still, how you present things is fornication and it is a sin. fornication is different from adultery.
better wait dude...

Tara

14th May 2004, 03:56 PM

No sex before marraige. They are both holy. :wave:

Riddick

14th May 2004, 04:02 PM

Sex is a dirty, filthy act.

caitlincares

14th May 2004, 11:30 PM

I am a virgin at nearly 40 and proud of it!
I want my wedding night to be special.
Of course I am still waiting for my parents to tell me the facts of life!!!!;)

faithfulwarrior

17th May 2004, 02:54 AM

Caitlin- I am proud of you! By remaining at virgin, you have shown complete submission to the Lord. Praise God!

I understand your views about the subject, ChoirBoy, but I think that you are wrong. Sex before marriage IS a sin. "Flee from even a HINT of sexual immorality" Plus, the Bible says that all sexual immoral person and fornicators will have their place in the lake of fire (unless, ofcourse they repent) How can you justify it when the Bible clearly says its wrong? God made sex to be a good thing, but to be good IN marriage with the person that you are married to. God knows best! I know I'm DEFINITELY waiting..
Godbless

Mimi

17th May 2004, 06:02 AM

Yes, cause if you never marry.....I mean.....helloooooo.

:D

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi

victoriamarie

17th May 2004, 08:22 AM

I guess I am a little old-fashioned, I was a virgin on my wedding day.
I do not believe sex outside of marriage is right.

The Julikenz

17th May 2004, 10:09 AM

I think it's fine... as long as it's not with more than one peron.-Dawn marie
dude!!!! what do you mean is sex okay outside marrige???
The bible says that Jesus is the way, truth and life (john 3:16), the bible says that we have the gift of eternal life in Jesus (romans6:23), the bible says we are a temple of the Holy spirit (1corinthians 6:19) the bible then says :"FOODS FOR THE STOMACHE AND THE STOMACHES FOR FOOD, NOW GOD WILL DESTROY IT AND THEM. NOW THE BODY IS NOT FOR SEXUAL IMORALITY BUT FOR THE LORD" (1Corinthians6:13) Jesus said that if we even look at a woman with lust in our heart, we have already commited adultery in our heart(matthew 5:27, 28) 7th comandment in exodus 20 ,this is the same book that tells u Jesus is Lord, and was raised from the dead on the third day, the same book that prophesised of the messiah and delivered him, so that we sould be reconcilled to God.This is the same book that holds Gods most prescious word, and as God is perfect, his word is to. For within Him there is no unrighteousness. this same book, makes a foundation if most of our faith, how can u ignore parts of it, yet claim to be saved on others ?? (in James 2:1) "MY BRETHREN, DONOT HOLD THE FAITH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH PARTIALITY"

NOW HOW CAN SEX BEFORE MARRIGE BE OKAY?????? :sigh:

The Julikenz

17th May 2004, 10:19 AM

Dawn marie... im lost at the deception Satan has blinded you with... maybe we could have a good chat sometime... :wave: The Lord has u on my heart and im praying for you gurl.. please dont think im attacking you, the Lord has rebuked you, but satan could try to make it personal..(the spirtual war 2corinthians 10) I pray God will bless you with knowledge and understanding as He breaks down this stronghold in your heart :pray: . i luv ya, hun, but yu gota see Gods way or Youll be on Satans path to the fire. :cry: and i dont want you to go there,if u need any :help: just ask, luv jazel

Mimi

17th May 2004, 10:36 AM

Sex happens before marriage, that has nothing to do with Satan..It has to do with hormones ;)..........and only one person? What if s/he is wrong for you? You aren't of stone. I wasn't anyway :P

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi

Mimi

17th May 2004, 10:38 AM

Sex is a dirty, filthy act.
:scratch:

ahem...can I say this?...

sex is fun ;) and not dirty and filthy.

Mimi

msjones21

17th May 2004, 10:47 AM

Oh wow. All I can say is this. What I do in my home is no one else's business. I have met the most wonderful man in the world. I've waited 23 years to fall in love with someone and I have found it with Charlie. Neither one of us want to get married. It's nothing personal, it's just an issue we both agree on. What we have now is nothing short of a marriage anyway, with the exception of having a piece of paper saying we're married. We live together, we share the financial responsibilities, we cook together, share in the household chores, and we have sex. I disagree that had I been a virgin when I met Charlie and had we gotten married that our sex life would be any better than it is right now. Your "sexual status" has no bearing on the quality of your sex life. I'm not saying that you have to go out and gain tons of experience (by being sexually promiscuous) in order for sex to be enjoyable. I mean, everyone is different. No two people will like the same thing when it comes to sexual techniques. The reason I say that people who wait can't possibly know if their sex life is any better than people who don't wait is because what do they have to compare it to? I think that there are too many scare tactics involved in the Christian push for abstinance until marriage. I've heard so many lies it's not even funny. They like to paint this pretty picture of people who wait having the most explosive and blissful sex lives. They like to tout the notion that people who wait won't get divorced. They like to make the assertion that people who wait until marriage will never endure an STD or unwanted pregnancy. What a load of bunk.

cat has felt the light!

17th May 2004, 11:05 AM

Well, I used to believe in sex outside of marriage, I only did with my boyfriend but then I was saved :cool: . I have recently of course had to stop this sin, which has been harsh, but it is achievable and has made our relationship even more worthy, we have become closer, and I believe god will bless us for this! so many things have gone wrong with me and sex in the past, that I'm so glad to be able to say no sex is wrong outside of marriage, God made us that way,
LOVE-MARRIAGE - SEX,
it shouldn't be any other way and don't even get me in to chatting about soul ties cos we'll be here forever :pink:
C@ xx

msjones21

17th May 2004, 11:23 AM

bgoddenia

17th May 2004, 11:32 AM

:wave: No! not ok, sex before marriage is called sexual immorality and 1Corinthians 6:9 say that the sexually immoral will
not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and again in Revelation 21:8 say the sexual immoral their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur..

Bless You, Looking unto Christ who makes Us Whole, Betsy

cat has felt the light!

17th May 2004, 12:01 PM

Cat, your logic is faulty. You can have a marriage without love. You can have sex without love. You can have love without sex. My boyfriend and I will never marry, but our commitment and love is not of a lesser quality than yours will be and quite frankly, I'm offended that anyone would make such an assertion.

nooooooo,
you get me all wrong, I'm not saying that love or sex are gonna mean less, what I'm saying is that, that is the way God wanted it to be, he made us to do things in this order because,
1. marriage without love is incredibly hard work.....hence the love then marriage!
2. sex without marriage carries it's own risks, don't deny it.
I am quite frankly offended that you call my logic faulty, just cause I don't agree with you and the way you live your life!
that is your choice!! but in that sense, you do not agree with my choice and therefore to me your logic is faulty! :mad:
C@ xx
p:s: yes you can have sex without love, but once again..think of the risks. I have been there I lost my virginity to someone I didn't love and it turns out they didn't love me when I was 15, I tend to deny this ever having happened because of the huge amounts of pain it caused. sex without love is not the kind of sex that there is in the unity of love.

led

17th May 2004, 12:08 PM

Cat, your logic is faulty. You can have a marriage without love. You can have sex without love. You can have love without sex. My boyfriend and I will never marry, but our commitment and love is not of a lesser quality than yours will be and quite frankly, I'm offended that anyone would make such an assertion.

wait... whose logic is faulty?

Marriage is a commitment for life. It is a vow that has the line "till death do us part." Most marriages fail but for those who enter it knowing what it means, they both take the commitment seriously and remain true to their promise to each other regardless of the future. Regardless of pain, difficulty, results of age, emotions, etc. If you and your boyfriend will never marry, then your commitment may very well be of a lesser quality. Not now, but down the road. What binds you? WHo are you accountable to? Where is the commitment?

And love.... I don't know your definition of love. Actually, I don't know you at all. Just know that your image thing says that you are a pagan so your view of love may be different that our God's view of love so that is an argument that I wont even touch here...

ty597

17th May 2004, 12:14 PM

wait... whose logic is faulty?

Marriage is a commitment for life. It is a vow that has the line "till death do us part." Most marriages fail but for those who enter it knowing what it means, they both take the commitment seriously and remain true to their promise to each other regardless of the future. Regardless of pain, difficulty, results of age, emotions, etc. If you and your boyfriend will never marry, then your commitment may very well be of a lesser quality. Not now, but down the road. What binds you? WHo are you accountable to? Where is the commitment?

And love.... I don't know your definition of love. Actually, I don't know you at all. Just know that your image thing says that you are a pagan so your view of love may be different that our God's view of love so that is an argument that I wont even touch here...

I agree. Good job led. Well said ;)

msjones21

17th May 2004, 12:52 PM

Marriage is a commitment for life.
Two people can have a commitment for life and never legally wed. Not to mention it's quite apparent that 80% of all married couples don't view marriage as a commitment for life, hence the obscenely high divorce rate. Christians are not exempt from those statistics either, neither are people who were virgins when they married.

If you and your boyfriend will never marry, then your commitment may very well be of a lesser quality.

Well, I'm sorry if you're of the opinion that our commitment is somehow diminished because we will never marry. Marriage, from a legal standpoint, is really only a piece of paper that allows you to have life insurance when your spouse passes on and you can have medical benefits. Aside from that, all of the other aspects of a marriage, can be found in any other loving and committed relationship.

What binds you?
The love, respect, and commitment we have with one another. We have pledged our undying love and devotion to each other and have both agreed that no matter what, in good times and in bad, we will stick together through thick and thin. We don't need to be legally married to have that level of commitment. IN fact, I'd be so bold as to say that what we have is even better than what some married couples share.

WHo are you accountable to?
In accordance with my faith (Wicca) I am accountable to The One, the Higher Power if you will. No, She will not punish me with everlasting hellfire if I make the wrong choices, but the Wiccan faith believes that what you do on earth will ultimately come back to you three-fold. In other words, I am accountable to myself and everyone else in my life and Charlie is no exception.

Where is the commitment?

How are we not committed, pray tell? Marriage isn't always the ultimate form of commitment, my friend. I'm of the impression that most people get into a marriage and then later think "what in the world have I gotten myself into?". It's like Charlie's close friend. He has been married for a little less than two years and he's already second-guessing his marriage. Why? Because now he feels trapped by their relationship.

And love.... I don't know your definition of love. Actually, I don't know you at all. Just know that your image thing says that you are a pagan so your view of love may be different that our God's view of love so that is an argument that I wont even touch here...

Love is not something exclusive to Christians. Love is a universal emotion and commitment. You don't have to be a believer to understand and be touched by love, but for some reasons Christians believe they habe the best mental capacity to comprehend "real" love and commitment and everyone else is just playing a game.

Krystina661

17th May 2004, 01:37 PM

Great post msjones :clap:

Riddick

17th May 2004, 10:14 PM

JillLars

18th May 2004, 04:15 AM

That's about the biggest load of **** I've ever heard. Your guy can and will dump you at the curb. Better get used to it, girl. It's what guys do. ;)
That might be what you do, but it definately isn't what all guys do, and keep in mind that more than 50% of married couples kick one another to the curb, it isn't something exclusive to those who don't have legal marriage certificates.

JillLars

18th May 2004, 04:20 AM

Marriage is a commitment for life. It is a vow that has the line "till death do us part." Most marriages fail but for those who enter it knowing what it means, they both take the commitment seriously and remain true to their promise to each other regardless of the future. Regardless of pain, difficulty, results of age, emotions, etc. If you and your boyfriend will never marry, then your commitment may very well be of a lesser quality. Not now, but down the road. What binds you? WHo are you accountable to? Where is the commitment?
This has already been mentioned, but I figured I would repeat it, more than 50% of all married couples (Christians included) get divorced. Now, if Christians are going into marriage knowing what it means (I'm assuming they do cause its right there in the vows) then why are they getting divorced?

If you get married, what binds you? Definately not that little piece of paper saying you're married, that can be taken care of in a matter of months (or maybe a shorter time depending how long you've been married). What binds people is their committment to one another, and a marriage certificate does not equal the committment (obviously), its a legal contract that can easily be broken.

cat has felt the light!

18th May 2004, 05:33 AM

How are we not committed, pray tell? Marriage isn't always the ultimate form of commitment, my friend. I'm of the impression that most people get into a marriage and then later think "what in the world have I gotten myself into?". It's like Charlie's close friend. He has been married for a little less than two years and he's already second-guessing his marriage. Why? Because now he feels trapped by their relationship.

If all marriage is, is some legal documents that give rights. If it truly doesn't mean anything then why do people take so long to find the right one to settle down with?
and why do they all of a sudden start to, feel trapped when married. In which case, your saying that people don't feel trapped in the relationship when not married, I put it to you that, that is because they can change their minds and walk away at any time, and it is this knowledge that shows a lesser commitment!
if marriage isn't the ultimate form of commitment, please tell me what is?
no most people don't get into a marriage and start thinking "what in the world have I gotten myself into?" , marriage does not ever ruin a relationship as marriage should be part of a steady relationship with two people who are ready for this commitment. Most people do not think this, you are wrong in that assumption,
C@ xx

JillLars

18th May 2004, 05:50 AM

If all marriage is, is some legal documents that give rights. If it truly doesn't mean anything then why do people take so long to find the right one to settle down with?

She wasn't saying marriage doesn't mean anything, but it is quite obvious from the statistics, that having that legal document doesn't make people stay together. Settling down is not always the same thing as marriage, if you plan on spending your life with someone, you will take time to think about it, whether you get married or not.

The Julikenz

18th May 2004, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Where is the commitment?

"How are we not committed, pray tell? Marriage isn't always the ultimate form of commitment, my friend. I'm of the impression that most people get into a marriage and then later think "what in the world have I gotten myself into?". It's like Charlie's close friend. He has been married for a little less than two years and he's already second-guessing his marriage. Why? Because now he feels trapped by their relationship "

Okay now i dont want to judge you or pick you apart, but as you know this is a Christian forum and when you put something on that can be proven wrong by the word of God and are then rebuked, you are resisting and challenging God. i know your are a atheist, but, it is imortant that we, as Christians not only preach the grace, love and mercy of God, but the wrath too!

Now as it has been posted God says that "the sexually immoral will
not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven"1Corinthians 6:9 , and again in Revelation 21:8 say "the sexual immoral their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.." so.. we ask ourselves, what is sexual imorality? Well Jesus said that we have heard about the command we should not commit adultery, but then He says if you even look at a woman with lust for her, you have already commited adultery in your heart. (matthew 5;27, 28).

the topic question was originally sex before, with or after marrige, and your are quoted to say "he (charlie) now feels trapped by the relationship"(his marrige) well do you really think it was the marrige God was calling Him to? GOd perfects everything within its time. including sex in marrige. He only ever intended something so beautiful and pleasureable (sex) for two people willing to submit to God then commit to the person God calls them to. Everyone in the world today has been decieved to believe in "try before you buy" like u gotta have sex a few times, you know, just to see if your compatible!! this is a lie!!! the bible says" only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Jesus Christ"? Phillipians 1:27 and Jesus says if you even look at a woman with lust you have ALREADY committed adultery in your heart, Revelation and corinthians say that all adulterers (those found guilty of commiting adultery) will have their place in the lake of fire.

So according to the bible, which is the word of God you are in big trouble. Sex outside marrige is adultery. and without Jesus as your advocate
(1John 2:1) ready to stand before the Father and dismiss you you are going to face judgement. A lot of atheists say "if God is so good, why does He send ppl to hell?" and the answer is simple becasue they rejected Him. "21 Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but He who does the will of my father who is in heaven"23and then i will declare to them, depart from me for you practice lawlessness'" Matthew 7:21, 23

to put it ion a nut shell : "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who supress the truth in unrighteousnness" Romans 1:18

Gods punishment will come upon anyone who does not submit to God and follow his will. those who try to do other things that suit them, knowing the truth, which is we need to accept and obey God, yet still reject Him will burn. :( and God odesnt want that for anyone thus Jesus!

Now you know God will punish, and you have heard His word, so please if you have any questions or need any :help: ask me, or send me a private message and id be glad to respond, but please donot continue to ignore God. ive been in wicca myself :sick: and trust me, IT DOES NOT give you salvation, nor fulfil the true reason you were put here on earth. -TO ACCEPT AND CHOOSE GOD.:bow:

msjones21

23rd May 2004, 12:59 AM

Okay now i dont want to judge you or pick you apart, but as you know this is a Christian forum and when you put something on that can be proven wrong by the word of God and are then rebuked, you are resisting and challenging God.
LOL Don't you understand that telling me you're right and I'm wrong based upon a book I see as a work of pure fiction would be like me telling you I'm right and you're wrong because a Danielle Steele novel said so?

i know your are a atheist,
How do you figure I'm an atheist? Atheists believe in no deity whatsoever. I believe in the Goddess. I'm not an atheist.

but, it is imortant that we, as Christians not only preach the grace, love and mercy of God, but the wrath too!

Well as long as you realize it doesn't cause me to rethink my position. That is the biggest reason I got out of the Christian faith. I see no point in being part of a group of people that advocate condemnation of people's actions just because you god tells you to do that. Love the sinner but hate the sin is a clever scapegoat, a smokescreen to be judgemental and snide towards people you think aren't as "good" as you are.

Now as it has been posted God says that "the sexually immoral will
not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven"1Corinthians 6:9 , and again in Revelation 21:8 say "the sexual immoral their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.."
Why do Christians leave out the other half of that verse and focus only on the sexual aspect of it? Are you guys pre-occupied with sex? That verse also says wrathful and greedy people won't go to heaven either.

what is sexual imorality? Well Jesus said that we have heard about the command we should not commit adultery, but then He says if you even look at a woman with lust for her, you have already commited adultery in your heart. (matthew 5;27, 28).
Then it appears everyone will be spending an eternity in hell. I'll be sure to save you all a seat.

the topic question was originally sex before, with or after marrige, and your are quoted to say "he (charlie) now feels trapped by the relationship"(his marrige) well do you really think it was the marrige God was calling Him to?
Well I highly doubt Charlie's friend cares if your god called him to that marriage. He's a LaVeyan Satanist.

GOd perfects everything within its time. including sex in marrige. He only ever intended something so beautiful and pleasureable (sex) for two people willing to submit to God then commit to the person God calls them to.
The lovemaking Charlie and I experience isn't any less meaningful, beautiful, or pleasurable than a Christian married couple's. Hate to burst your bubble.

So according to the bible, which is the word of God you are in big trouble.
Well, according to Chester the Purple Cat you're wrong. See how absurd that sounds?

Now you know God will punish, and you have heard His word, so please if you have any questions or need any :help: ask me, or send me a private message and id be glad to respond, but please donot continue to ignore God. ive been in wicca myself :sick: and trust me, IT DOES NOT give you salvation, nor fulfil the true reason you were put here on earth. -TO ACCEPT AND CHOOSE GOD.:bow:
Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Your gospel does not scare me. Christian scare tactics are repugnant anyway, so there is no chance in this world I would respond to your threats of god being mad at me and how I'm going to burn in hell for not believing the way you do. I am very happy with my faith, so please don't feel sorry for me.

steelmagnolia

23rd May 2004, 08:40 AM

Wow, this thread just keeps going and going.

To the Christians that think adultry and or fornication is ok - all I can say is people will justify ANYTHING. Sex before and outside of marriage is a prime example as this thread shows.

Staind

23rd May 2004, 12:27 PM

I think sex before marriage is ok under special circumstances, generally no. If you can't afford a grand wedding which you're pressured into (marriage licenses aren't expensive) but, you plan on getting married once you get enough money I would consider this ok. I believe that marriage is between two people (obviously) and shouldn't involve another 3rd party to say "hey I have to say that's ok!". Now, if it's a one night stand or just a regular teenage boyfriend/girlfriend then no, sex is not ok.

Not having premarital sex though is really really hard.

noob

23rd May 2004, 01:14 PM

This has already been mentioned, but I figured I would repeat it, more than 50% of all married couples (Christians included) get divorced. Now, if Christians are going into marriage knowing what it means (I'm assuming they do cause its right there in the vows) then why are they getting divorced?
Well, I think one problem is that just because someone says they're Christian it doesn't mean they actually are. Christianity is a way of life. Many Christians treat Christianity more as a cultural thing that they're born into or a basic philosophy rather than a real commitment to God. To be a Christian I think it takes more than just going to church on Sundays and trying to follow the basic "rules" of the religion(don't steal, don't lie, don't kill people, etc.). It's much more personal... and I think treating God as a real part of everyday life is too much for many people to handle, so God becomes more of an abstract idea pushed to the sidelines. The idea of a sentient entity knowing every little detail of your life, every dirty little secret, and every stray thought can be a little scary and difficult to accept, lol.

Now, as too the original poll question...

"Sex before, with or after marriage?

In today's society, it seems that sex outside of marriage is common. Take many of the 'teen' movies produced. Many depict sex outside the bounds of marriage as commonplace. Some movies have sex outside of marriage as the actual topic of the movie. What are your thoughts?"

I'm not 100% sure whether I'll make it to marriage a virgin or not, but I think it's defenitely best to wait until marriage. For one, it reduces the risk of stds and unwanted pregnancy... second, it can make it easier for people to tell if their relationship is about lust or love... third, I think it would be a great wedding gift, lol. I don't think it's the end of the world if two people did decide to have sex before marriage, but I think they'll probably feel much better in the long run if they do. I also think the bible is pretty clear that it's best to wait, and we should try to live as moral a life as possible :-)

Overlord

24th May 2004, 07:43 AM

i'm depressed. What do i do :cry:

MQTA

24th May 2004, 08:02 AM

LOL Don't you understand that telling me you're right and I'm wrong based upon a book I see as a work of pure fiction would be like me telling you I'm right and you're wrong because a Danielle Steele novel said so?

Don't you think you're being a little unfair to Danielle? :D

The Julikenz

24th May 2004, 08:39 AM

Dear Ms Jones, You are decieved and i am praying for you.

msjones21

24th May 2004, 10:24 AM

Dear Ms Jones, You are decieved and i am praying for you.

Well, you are more than welcome to offer up unsolicited prayers, although I find the manner in which you felt necessary to inform me of this quite condescending. I am not deceived. Wiccans do not find it necessary (as the Christians do) to profess that we have the "one true and correct" faith system. Just because I don't believe the same way you do does not make me deceived and quite frankly, I find it offensive you would suggest such a thing. I don't believe you are deceived because you follow Christianity, so why can't you simply respect my beliefs, even if they differ from yours?

MQTA

24th May 2004, 10:27 AM

Well, you are more than welcome to offer up unsolicited prayers, although I find the manner ....
We were just talking about that the other day, weren't we? :)

cat has felt the light!

24th May 2004, 12:15 PM

"Cat, your logic is faulty"

msjones if this isn't another way of telling me I am decieved then I don't know what is!

"Wiccans do not find it necessary (as the Christians do) to profess that we have the "one true and correct" faith system. Just because I don't believe the same way you do does not make me deceived and quite frankly, I find it offensive you would suggest such a thing. I don't believe you are deceived because you follow Christianity, so why can't you simply respect my beliefs, even if they differ from yours?"

as a christian we are told to profess the truth! we believe that there is only one God and One true path to life so when we tell you, you are decieved it is not meant with the intention to put down your belief, simply to re-inforce what we believe is that you must be wrong! sorry if this has caused offence I promise none was intended :sorry:
back to the point about respecting other peoples faiths:
"for some reasons Christians believe they habe the best mental capacity to comprehend "real" love and commitment and everyone else is just playing a game"
I don't like the way you keep referring to us all as just christians and seem to make out that we are not individuals! I know that some people believe we are brainwashed into thinking the same things from an early age but we aren't and we don't, I find that your stereotype of us is disrespectful, I have not and do not stereotype people from your faith as being in one mindset so why do you do that with mine? :(

as for julikenz555 I don't think that God can really make anyone change anyway so you can only pray for her protection not anyones salvation. The Lord wants everyone's salvation if he could do that he'd have to over ride free-will and I for one am glad that he doesn't do that, how robotic would life be???
I'm sorry if this comes across as an attack, that certainly isn't my intention, it was just a few points that came into my head whilst reading this thread, hope it makes sense,
love and hugs :hug:
C@ xx

rubberduckie

24th May 2004, 06:49 PM

Hey Cat has felt the light (cute name ) I read your post, and I liked some of the things you said. But I am confused by what you mean as "I don't think that God can really make anyone change anyway so you can only pray for her protection not anyones salvation." Are you talking about a person's free will? Yeah I believe we have the free will to choose to accept salvation or reject it, but I think that only God can change our hearts. He knows us better than we do Psalm 139, and in the past, he has hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and other people. I do think he is a just and loving God, and he does desire that all should come to repentance. But whenever I think about free will, I find I can think no more. (lol) :) Anyways, we are individuals, and people should respect that fact, just as people should not stereotype, "teenagers", etc. But we are one in Christ, and he even prayed for us that we would be one in Him and the Father. We are ambassadors for Christ, that is our main goal on this earth. It's pretty cool though, when you think about it :)

Also, to Ms. Jones, I read your post, and I also was concerned. For a person of many blessings, you seemed to have strayed from the truth. ;) But I'm sure I have on occasions, for Christ is truth, and when my focus is not on Christ, I am bound to stray away from the truth. But, I see your thing does not say Christian, so it is our duty as Christians, to tell you what we know to be true. That does not mean you have to accept it. You can choose to reject it, but if you do, you must know the consequences. Follow Christ and live eternally with him, or reject him and his word as the only way to heaven (admitting to sins, beleiving in his death burial and resurrection and his attributes as the only perfect, son of God as payment for our sins, by which through birth in a sinful world, we were already desparate sinners) and dwell eternally, separated from God, in a place that is full of torment, which we call hell. But this is what we believe based on the truth of God and his word. He loves you just like he loves me and everyone he created, but he is perfect, and no sinful person can enter his presence without trusting in Christ as Lord and Savior. But we will pray for you. And think about it, by including any other religion, you are rejecting anything that will believes there is only one way. And allthough the "only-one way" people may seem to be closeminded to you, in reality is it not you in rejecting that there could only be possibly one way, that is also closeminded?" But please let me know if that is not the case, and I will beg your forgiveness. :) I do not mean to offend you, butthe gospel is offensive to many people. Because we as people want to believe we are in control of our lives, we are good people.....but this is not so. We are not seeing things through God's eyes. It is terrible to think that He who made the whole universe, who created the earth, in every special detail for mankind, which he created in his image, should be rejected and scorned by the very beings he created? And how then for him to painstakingly create a plan in which the beings which caused him hurt through their sin, may one day reach him, knowing that few would except his gift, and many would scoff it? We see things only through our eyes, what is good for me. But I think that is closed-minded. What about, what is good for others, I am not as good as they see.. and what about God, what does he want?

But I do agree with your quote, "This country.....", but I also have to wonder about the "Christians" who founded this country. In fleeing England, they formed their own colony, where if they had stayed, they not only could have endured persecution ("turn the other cheek") but also could have witnessed to the non-believers persecuting themselves, but the firmed their own little colony in the woods, not "going into all the world" at all. Bad idea. But that was before our country was founded. But the "Christian" descendants, rebelled from England. Although England was unfair, the Bible says "submit to the governing authority" which they obviously did not follow. But there were some Christians at the time, and later, who went as missionaries to the Indians, not to change their culture, or to wipe them out of existance, but to share with them the good news we call the gospel, whcih changes lives. Thes Christians I applaud, and I'm sure God will give them their reward in heaven.

mibashful

24th May 2004, 07:06 PM

sex before marrige is totally wrong it is meant for man and woman to consumate there marrige to each other and to show there love for one another thats how christ intended

The Julikenz

25th May 2004, 04:15 PM

Hey Cat has felt the light (cute name ) I read your post, and I liked some of the things you said. But I am confused by what you mean as "I don't think that God can really make anyone change anyway so you can only pray for her protection not anyones salvation." Are you talking about a person's free will? Yeah I believe we have the free will to choose to accept salvation or reject it, but I think that only God can change our hearts. He knows us better than we do Psalm 139, and in the past, he has hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and other people. I do think he is a just and loving God, and he does desire that all should come to repentance. But whenever I think about free will, I find I can think no more. (lol) :) Anyways, we are individuals, and people should respect that fact, just as people should not stereotype, "teenagers", etc. But we are one in Christ, and he even prayed for us that we would be one in Him and the Father. We are ambassadors for Christ, that is our main goal on this earth. It's pretty cool though, when you think about it :)

Also, to Ms. Jones, I read your post, and I also was concerned. For a person of many blessings, you seemed to have strayed from the truth. ;) But I'm sure I have on occasions, for Christ is truth, and when my focus is not on Christ, I am bound to stray away from the truth. But, I see your thing does not say Christian, so it is our duty as Christians, to tell you what we know to be true. That does not mean you have to accept it. You can choose to reject it, but if you do, you must know the consequences. Follow Christ and live eternally with him, or reject him and his word as the only way to heaven (admitting to sins, beleiving in his death burial and resurrection and his attributes as the only perfect, son of God as payment for our sins, by which through birth in a sinful world, we were already desparate sinners) and dwell eternally, separated from God, in a place that is full of torment, which we call hell. But this is what we believe based on the truth of God and his word. He loves you just like he loves me and everyone he created, but he is perfect, and no sinful person can enter his presence without trusting in Christ as Lord and Savior. But we will pray for you. And think about it, by including any other religion, you are rejecting anything that will believes there is only one way. And allthough the "only-one way" people may seem to be closeminded to you, in reality is it not you in rejecting that there could only be possibly one way, that is also closeminded?" But please let me know if that is not the case, and I will beg your forgiveness. :) I do not mean to offend you, butthe gospel is offensive to many people. Because we as people want to believe we are in control of our lives, we are good people.....but this is not so. We are not seeing things through God's eyes. It is terrible to think that He who made the whole universe, who created the earth, in every special detail for mankind, which he created in his image, should be rejected and scorned by the very beings he created? And how then for him to painstakingly create a plan in which the beings which caused him hurt through their sin, may one day reach him, knowing that few would except his gift, and many would scoff it? We see things only through our eyes, what is good for me. But I think that is closed-minded. What about, what is good for others, I am not as good as they see.. and what about God, what does he want?

FANTASTIC POST, RUBBERDUCKIE!!! I pray God will help me to be as diplomatic, concise and friendly!!

God bless you! :wave:

noob

25th May 2004, 05:05 PM

I don't believe you are deceived because you follow Christianity
Actually, I think you do. Or at least you should if you're really strong in your pagan belief. Sorry to be so blunt and un"pc", but either one knows the truth and the other is being decieved, or both are being decieved. Can you explain how both Paganism and Christianity could both be true? Sorry if I sound angry or something(I'm not), but this line of thinking doesn't seem to make any sense. Christianity is just not compatible with too many(if any) other belief systems.

Heh, I just noticed after writing the above that rubberduckie all ready summed it up (better than I did, I think... should teach me to write without reading all the posts, lol :P) Anyway, I think it might help if you understand the basic reason why many Christians tell you you're being decieved. Jesus's teaching that you should love everyone like they love themselves, and love God above all pretty much explains it. Pretend for a second you're a Christian who believes with all your heart that Jesus is the only way to salvation... could you let anyone continue to believe a lie without at least telling them what you know is true and still be following the most basic and important teaching of Christianity?

Or let me put it this way... how would you feel about letting someone you loved commit suicide without trying to do anything to stop it? I'm not saying all people claiming to be Christians have that motivation, but I've met quite a few that do :)

rubberduckie

25th May 2004, 06:20 PM

Thanks oodles JuLikeNz, you have been very friendly in saying that. And you were bold to respond to Ms. Jones (Not that's she's evil ;), but it takes guts, and the Holy Spirit). I looked at it afterward and said "Yikes, I can't believe I posted that. So I hope that God uses my posts, your posts, and everyone's posts for his glory. :) Thanks soooo much, you may my day!

Wow, good post noob :)

I especially love "Pretend for a second you're a Christian who believes with all your heart that Jesus is the only way to salvation... could you let anyone continue to believe a lie without at least telling them what you know is true and still be following the most basic and important teaching of Christianity?

Or let me put it this way... how would you feel about letting someone you loved commit suicide without trying to do anything to stop it? I'm not saying all people claiming to be Christians have that motivation, but I've met quite a few that do :)"

Yes, it breaks our heart, and I know it broke mine when I invited my friend to church, and she said she just wanted a laid-back summer, didn't want to deal with God. First I felt like, oh sure, well what about God's plans, can't you even spend a little time finding what God wants. And that was kinda sarcastic and mean and I felt bad for it. Then I thought, why can't you realize how urgent this is!!! You could die any minute, and don't you care that you're going to hell!! I want you to know Jesus. But the most we can do is pray, God will do what he wills, and we know he desires that all should come to salvation. It must break God's heart so much more.

I also think about the gift of salvation. For me, I dunno, I had cookies today, and it kinda hurt me when some people would not except them (very minor injury ;) ). But how much more does it hurt God when those who have been presented with his gift of love refuse to accept it?

cat has felt the light!

26th May 2004, 05:59 AM

so sorry for the confusion :scratch: what I basically meant is that we can pray for unbelievers protection...and ask that the holy spirit may reach out and touch them but that if people refuse to accept that then they cannot be saved. It is basically about free will, people with the help of other "forces" can block out God from their lives and I'm positive that, that is what msjones is doing.
all the best,
C@ xx
p:s: ur names lovely! :blush:

JillLars

26th May 2004, 06:52 AM

Let's try to get back on topic, if we want to discuss truth and deception, a new thread needs to be started on the topic.

Crystal_Dawn

26th May 2004, 07:42 AM

No, premarital sex is not okay, in the eyes of God. Society seems too have no problem with it. However, as believers, we should be a light to the world and be about what is right by God's standards, not the world's. And the definition of marriage...a covenant between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN til DEATH do us part!

JessieFL

26th May 2004, 09:19 AM

I agree Dawn.

Honestly I don't even see how we (mostly believers) could argue about such a point. God let us know his plan and that's what we should strive for.

Captain John Sheridan

26th May 2004, 09:45 AM

Hey all and God bless!

Premarital and extramarital sex is definitely not OK, not only according to my opinion (which in the grand scheme of things, matters not at all), but also according to God's Word and the teachings of the Catholic Church. No Christian or Catholic can claim that they are truely Christian or Catholic if they believe anything different (See Ex. 20:14, Deut. 5:18, 1 Cor. 6:15-19, and others; also, CCC #2353 and 2380-2381). God has given us these nuggets of gold in His New Law because He loves us so much, knows how we work (He made us), and wants the best for us. If only people of our generation would see this more, how much more awesome their lives would be. I can testify that in my own life, the self-denial ("If anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me," Jesus said in Mark 8:34) in the way of keeping myself pure - always and totally by God's grace - has borne wondrous fruits in eternity and here on Earth.

For anyone who's interested, I'd recommend Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body. From what I understand, he has an excellent handle on all such issues dealing with sexuality, etc. and how and why - from a level of natural law, mainly - sex is only good in marriage and for marriage. It is the "hidden gold" of the Catholic Church. I'll go look for a link at which to find some (if not all) of this material if anyone's interested.

I hope this helps.

God bless,
Sheridan