What is "sin"?

[CaDan]

The title pretty much says it all.

Here is an x-post by me from Liberal Theology in The Thread That Is About Everything:

This entire line of reasoning assumes that "sin" is a set of behaviors that can be defined and listed, a la Deut 24. As Jesus points out in Matt. 5:21-48 by giving six independent critiques of specific rules in the Torah, lists of rules that one can obey or not obey hides sin as well as exposing it. One can follow all the rules and still have a corrupt heart.

Sin is not a set of behaviors. Sin is a mindset that results in behaviors. See, e.g., Romans 6, where Paul personifies "sin" as a "thing" that can reign and kill. See esp. Rom. 6:20-21, distinguishing between sin and the fruit thereof; see also Rom.7:5 (same).

Am I making any sense here?

[McCravey]

May I add that sin is a condition. It is like being wired incorrectly.

[Toney]

There is probably a better elaborate definition. I was always taught that sin is simply disobedience to God. To the behavioural point, we can simply choose to obey God or not, and do it our way instead. Animals are hardwired (no free will) and therefore do not sin.

[Maccie]

Toney, I agree with you, but I was also told that sin was not reaching God's standards, and that this meaning of "sin" was the translation of the usual Greek word hamartia used in the NT. In that sense, we are all sinners, because we can never rech God's standards. Now, having always been in an evangelical church, I don't know if this is just their view, or a real understanding of the word. I shall have to do some research!

Maccie

[praying]

Sin is bad, my Mommy told me so. ;)


You are making sense to me.

Do you think our sin manifests itself outwardly (i.e lieing cheating, etc.) for most people or do think that for most or some that most sin is internal?

[fragmentsofdreams]

I think it is a good description.

[McCravey]

Sin is bad, my Mommy told me so. ;)


You are making sense to me.

Do you think our sin manifests itself outwardly (i.e lieing cheating, etc.) for most people or do think that for most or some that most sin is internal?


I agree with you that it begins internally. It can be influenced from external sources (senses).

It is the condition of the man on the inside (like an apple with a rotten core) or as Christ said "whitewashed tombs"

[Treasure the Questions]

Sin is when we "mess up".

[Maccie]

I'm not sure that we are rotten inside, like an apple. We are made in the iamge of God, and there is a nugget of goodness in us all. I think we have a prediliction, or leaning, towards sin. I don't think we are all totally and utterly rotten. Non-Christians, and those of other faiths can, and do, do good, unselfish things.

Maccie

[praying]

Augustine shows clearly the religious character of sin.
Sin for him is not a moral failure; it is not even
disobedience. Disobedience is a consequence but not the cause.
The cause is: turning away from God, and from God as the
highest good, as the love with which God loves Himself,
through us. For this reason, since sin has this character -- if
you say "sins", it is easily dissolved into moral sins; but
sin is first of all basically the power of turning away from
God. For this very reason, no moral remedy is possible. Only
one remedy is possible: return to God. But this of course is
possible only in the power of God, and this power is lost.
This is the state of man under the conditions of existence.
... Paul Tillich (1886-1965), A History of Christian
Thought [1968]


Today's email quote from Christian Quotation of the Day (http://www.cqod.com/cqodqbs.htm)

[Toney]

Personally, I have difficulty with the theology of most of the 'sex and sin' saints like Augustine (whose feast day is tomorrow btw) and Jerome. I think that Fr Matthew Fox's creation centered theology (original blessing vs. original sin) suits modern Christians who don't loathe human sexuality far better than Augustine's rather harsh theology, which was well suited for the medieval mind that did.

[CaDan]

Personally, I have difficulty with the theology of most of the 'sex and sin' saints like Augustine (whose feast day is tomorrow btw) and Jerome. I think that Fr Matthew Fox's creation centered theology (original blessing vs. original sin) suits modern Christians who don't loathe human sexuality far better than Augustine's rather harsh theology, which was well suited for the medieval mind that did.

Matthew Fox is in the TO READ REAL SOON NOW pile . . .

He spoke at our church a few years ago. Very interesting.

[Toney]

Here's a taste:

Fox states in Coming of the Cosmic Christ that the book began as a dream, so he ends it with a dream.

Pope John XXIV calls for Vatican Council III. Next the Pope offers a public apology in the name of Western Christianity to native peoples, women, homosexuals, scientists, and artists for the sins of the Church against them.

Then, the new Pope dismantles the "Office of Inquisition (lately known as the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith) and replaces it with a board of grandmothers who will counsel the overall church on implications of doctrine and movements for the young."

He then sends all Opus Dei bishops to a remote island on spiritual retreat where they will critique "the history of fascism and Christianity on the one hand and (receive) an inculcation of creation spirituality on the other." The Pope appoints women to assume the good offices of these bishops during their absences.

However, the book to read by Fox is Original Blessing.

[nyj]

Sin is when we "mess up". According to whose standards, isn't that the heart of the question?

[sakamuyo]

According to God's standards, which aren't always the same as our standards, liberal or conservative. :)

I think "sin" is a broad term that can be used in many ways. It can refer to the gulf that exists between us and God. It can refer to the damage done (by us, both in the form of 'original sin' and our continued sin) to the relationship between humanity and God. It can refer to specific acts, behaviors, and/or attitudes where we (humanity) decide we don't need God and can run our lives without him.

Sin is our separation from God.

[seeking.IAM]

My definition is closer to Sakamuyo's. I learned it from a Presbyterian pastor during my college years. He said, as I recall, that sin is anything that separates you from God. Some of those things may be prescribed by God (e.g., "Thou shalt not kill.") Others may be particular to an individual in that the very thing that stands between one person and God may not be a sin to someone else.

seeking.IAM

[Toney]

Others may be particular to an individual in that the very thing that stands between one person and God may not be a sin to someone else.


This is an excellent point! What usually stands between anyone and God are worldly attachments. In the sermon on the mount we are taught, "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Mt 6:21) Should the point be missed, Jesus goes on to add, "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." (Mt 6:24)

In biblical terminology, the heart is the center of the body and governs our actions, even our thoughts. Placing anything or anyone other than God at the center of our lives, in our heart, is idolatry. Idolatry is sinful.

I think we are far too preoccupied with a worn out Victorian Sunday School definition of sin as something naughty. After nearly 2,000 years is it not time for some solid food? Even the word repent has taken on sin-phobia connotations. The word repentance means to change your life, metanoia (http://www.stjosephdg.org/parish/about/metanoia.html), by turning toward God and by attaching ourselves and our lives only to our stored treasures in heaven.

Sin, as sakamuyo and seeking.IAM wrote, is separation from God and disobedience to God, who commanded us never to separate from Him.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment..." (Mt 22:37,38)