For the Ladies! [OPEN]

[Henaynei]

Well, Ladies.....
Messianic (Jews and gentiles) women only, please :blush:

I have been asked why I chose to cover my hair. I have my opinions and reasons - but I felt that the inquirer would be more fully served if she had the benefit of other voices besides mine.

So I have started this thread and poll.....

Vote - Speak up - explain yourself.....
When discussing what you do (or don't do) try to fully explain when you cover, where you cover, how much you cover and with what you cover - and for how long (years??)
Shalom Achoti...

For my part I cover my hair completely with an opaque snood from the time I get up in the morning to the time I go to bed. I have been doing this for the last 5 years. I am a medical professional and work out in the public. I have not cut my hair in over 20 years.

[ServingHim]

My husband will not allow me to cover. At first, when I became convicted to cover, I did so anyway and our marriage nearly fell apart. Now, I cover only during my private prayer and study time or when he'll be gone all day. I've done this for about a year now.

[Big Mouth Nana]

Shalom to all. I do not cover my hair, because I believe that The Most High is my covering: Psalms 91:4 ~He shall COVER thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Also, because of this scripture: 1st Cor. 11:15 ~ But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a COVERING. I don't have long hair, but Jesus covering me is alot better then my hair.:prayer:

[Henaynei]

Here is one point of view........
I am sorry, this did not copy from the site as well as I hoped.....:(

Women's Headcoverings: A Messianic Viewpoint (http://associate.com/ministry_files/The_Reading_Room/Yeshua_Messianic_Judaism/Womens_headcoverings_a_Messi.shtml)
Introduction

In Biblical times, women covered their heads with veils or scarfs a sign of chastity and modesty. The unveiling of a woman's hair was considered a humiliation and punishment (Numbers 5:18, Isaiah 3:17, II Maccabees 4:6, Sus. 32). In the orient, the head was covered as a gesture of respect, in the presence of a notable, an elder or scholar. From this followed the practice of covering the head in the presence of G-d at worship, the practice becoming a sign of piety.

The headgear was an ornament. Shulamites long flowing locks were admired (Song of Songs 4:1, 6:5, 7:5 compare with Ezekiel 16:7). Much art was bestowed in the braiding (Isaiah 3:24, II Samuel 1a4:2;6, Judges 13). A woman suspected of adultery was disheveled and her covering was removed by the priest (Numbers 5:18-compared with Leviticus 21:10). The shearing of hair was the insult of a captive woman (Jeremiah 7:29, I Cornithians 11:15).

In Talmudic times, women always covered their hair (Ned. 30b; Num. R-9:1 6). Some aggadic sources interpret this custom as a sign of a woman's shame and feeling of guilt for Eve's sin. Should a woman walk bareheaded in the street, her husband could divorce her without repayment of her dowry. (In Ket. 7:6, the term "dat Yehudit" means that a woman should not spin or have her hair uncovered in the street.) By the sixteenth century, praying with the head uncovered was considered to be a heathen custom.

Girls did not have to cover their hair until the wedding ceremony (Ket. 2:1). In some contemporary Sephardic communities, however, it is the custom for unmarried girls to cover their heads.

Some rabbis compared the exposure of a married woman's hair to the exposure of her private parts since they felt that a woman's hair could be used for erotic excitement (Ber 24a). They forbid the recital of any blessing in the presence of a bare headed woman. Pious women even took care to not uncover their hair in their house. This was particularly true of Kimhit, the mother of several high priests (Yoma 47A, Lev. R 20:11).

The general custom was to appear in public and in the presence of strange men with covered hair. It gradually became accepted to be the general traditional custom for all Jewish women to cover their hair (Sh. Ar. EH 21.2).

Toward the end of the eighteenth century, some circles of women began to wear a wig, called in Yiddish, a shaytl, which was made of artificial or real hair and worn, according to an old Jewish practice by pious women as a sign of modesty. "Pious married women never share their hair in public and have it covered frequently by a wig." This innovation was opposed by certain authorities such as Moses Sofer.

Rabbinic literature teaches that it is sinful for [the hair of] a Jewish woman to be seen by any man other than her husband, or to listen to the recital of prayers without her head covered. Some very pious Jewish women used to cut their hair off on their wedding day and keep their head covered with a kerchief, a custom still observed in some Jewish communities though it has been discarded for the most part.

In modern times, only the strictly orthodox insist on women covering their hair all the time. It remains however the practice in some Reform synagogues for women to cover their hair.

The majority of Jews cover their heads at prayer, study or religious observances. This practice isn't based on any law in the Bible or Talmud, but a first time injunction in the Medieval Jewish Codes. There are places in the United States where one of the chief divisive distinctions between Reform and Orthodox Jews is the willingness or the unwillingness of the congregations to worship with uncovered heads.

II. Eastern Europe

The first intervention of the authorities in this practice occurred in the thirteenth century when a council held in Breslav during the year 1266 ordered Jews in Western Poland to wear a yellow hat. The Piotrkow Diet of 1538, reproved Jews for adopting Christian attire and compelled them to wear this as well.

The Lithuanian Statue of 1566 as well as the Southern Polish Statues of 1595, laid down minute specification restricting the sumptuousness of female dress and jewelry. The Lithuanian Statute ordered yellow hats for men and kerchiefs for women.

Although the woman's dress was more colorful, her finery was not meant to be displayed outdoors based on Psalm 45:14. The dress of Jewish women was generally in the fashion of the period but more subdued.

In Western Poland, during the 18th century, it was customary to wear a bonnet on the Sabbath made of brocade trimmed with lace and silver stitching. In the east, including Lithuania and parts of Russia, the earliest form of head covering consisted of lace trimmed with colored ribbons, glass baubles and beads. In time, pearls and diamonds gradually replaced popular ornaments.

In Central Poland, Galicia and Hungary, the head covering was made up of three parts: the harband which covered the hair above the forehead; the grint which served as the background and the kupke for the Sabbath which was a sort of tiara. The wig or shaytl was never considered proper for the very Orthodox.

III. Married Women

The custom of covering the bride's face with a veil so that she would not be seen even by her husband until after the wedding ceremony was felt to date back to Genesis 24:65 as well as to Rebecca and Leah (Genesis 29:23-25). The Mishnah Keith 2:1 states that this custom has been retained by Jews throughout the Middle Ages. The wedding begins with the veiling of the bride in the home and was considered a symbol of her obligation of chastity.

As mentioned earlier, among the causes for divorcing a wife was walking in the street with her head uncovered. It is listed among these causes: adultery, relations with her husband while menstruating, exposure of her forearms and frivolous conduct with other men.

The main function of women was that of presiding genus and guardian of the home. This was considered her temple: the education of her children, her divine service, her family, her congregation. It was her duty to supervise all domestic matters including: the maintenance of Kashrut, home celebration of Sabbath and festivals, the early education of her sons as well as a good measure of the education of her daughters. The wife encouraged the husband to study Torah (Midrash Genesis 17:12).

The Talmud did not consider it dignified for women to be exposed to the roughness of everyday life outside the home (Psalm 45:14, Yeb 77a). By nature, the woman's main function was to act as a helpmate to her husband, "A beautiful wife, beautiful without cosmetics, doubles the days of her husband and increases his mental comfort." (Yeb 63b, Ber 57b)

It was the duty of her husband to try, at all costs, to avoid her from shedding tears, "for G-d counts the tears of women." Talmud also opposed the husband's reliance on his wife's income. He was forbidden to recite prayers in front of any woman who was not fully dressed and this included his wife's head covering.

In the latter part of the Middle Ages, according to an old Jewish custom, married women, for the sake of modest, covered their hair in the presence of strange men because of the erotic effect of the hair. The Talmud cautions women against going out with their head uncovered, even praises the covering of a woman's hair in the house. Midrash numbers 9:16 states that only heathen women went about with their heads uncovered. It was forbidden to pray in the presence of an unmarried woman with uncovered hair (Ber 25A). The Zohar called the covered hair of the head of the wife, "The chastity of the house."

In Mishanic times it was a universal practice for women to cover their hair, it's violation was deemed grounds for divorce without paying the kethubah. Later custom became more lenient toward unmarried women. It was an inviolable Jewish custom that women should not be seen in the streets with their hair uncovered (Ket. 7:6).

In the Septuagint, the Mosaic Law regarding Numbers 5:18 is taken by the rabbis to mean, "The priest shall uncover the woman's head." As stated in Midrash Rabbah on Numbers 5:18:

In the place where he set her to begin with there he sets her afterward (In other words, she moved about from place to place.) before the L-rd: Is it not already written above that he must set her before the L-rd? Yes, but the repetition is to indicate that he must set her before whom she stands, before the L-rd. And let the hair of the woman's head go loose. This may be compared to a priest who entered a cemetery while his servant remained waiting outside to avoid being defiled. As though it was not sufficient for the latter to be like his master! In the same way so that the priest might not go out of misplaced pride object: "Am I to uncover a woman's head? It says, before the L-rd, and let the hair...go loose. And let the hair go loose (ib); why? Because it is usual for the daughters of Israel to have their head covered. Consequently, when he uncovers the hair of her head, he says to her: "You have departed from the way of the daughters of Israel, whose habit it is to have their heads covered, and you have walked in the ways of the idolatrous women, who walk with their heads uncovered. Rabbi Ishmael derives from this, the law forbidding women to walk with uncovered hair (Ket. 72a; Sifre Num.11). Traditional custom as interpreted by the rabbis comes from Numbers R. 28:20, "The distinction of kamlhit, who saw seven of her sons made high priests and two officiate on one and the same day, one of them being Simon ben Kamlhit, mentioned by Josephus (Antiquities 28. 2,2) as "Simon son of Camithous", is ascribed by the Rabbis to the fact that even the ceiling of her house had not seen the hair of her head." Yer. Meg. 1.72a). Talmudic understanding saw an uncovered head as a sign of nakedness and incentive to improper glances. it is unlawful to recite the Shema in the presence of a woman with a bare head.

Originally, the custom was for married and single women (Ned. 30b). Also, law (B.K. 90a) were set which fined 400 drachmas for tearing off a woman's head covering in the street. Paul, in I Corinithians 11:12-13, also supported this.

Pirke R. El. XIV said that as a result of Eve's curse, a woman must go about covered as mourners. Later in Talmud and occidental countries, there is mention of unmarried women with uncovered heads.


IV. Modern Commentaries
Gablein states that a woman praying and prophesying is to have her head covered or a covering on the head. A covering on the head is an outward sign of being in the place of subjection. Another reason is given why praying women should wear outwardly, as sign of subjection, because of the angels. Angels are watchers and attendants of heirs of salvation. The church is known to them and (Ephesians 3:10) so they observe Christian worship. Angels themselves are in subjection and yields obedience.

I Corinthians 11:10 states, "Therefore, the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels." Strong indicates that the Greek for woman refers to, "A woman, specifically a wife; a woman; be married." (#1135 gune, sdginomai). Angels has a question mark and is unclear (# 2465 or 2432; issagelos similar to angel/angel-like). The Greek for veil is "katakalupetai" which suggests a veil that hung down.

Wycliffe Bible Commentary states, "The word for angels in the expression 'because of the angels' does not refer to elders. Nor does it refer to evil angels (Genesis 6:1-4). It refers to good angels who are present in worship meeting s since they live in the presence of G-d (I Corinithians a4:9; Luke 14:7,10l Ephesians 3:10; I Timothy 5:21; Psalms 138:1). The insubordination of women in refusing to acknowledge the authority of their husbands would offend angels who, under G-d, guard the created universe (Colossians 1:16, Ephesians 1:21) and know no insubordination." (Pg. 1247-1248)

For the counsel concerning veiling of women in public worship there were three reasons: 1. theological reason, 2. Biblical reason, 3. physical reason. "In the final analysis, the hat or veil is not the important thing, but the subordination for which it stands. The presence of both is ideal."

Matthew Henry says this is a positive sign. Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Whole Bible states that it was a sign of humility and very womanish.

The passage is addressed to "every man" and "every woman" indicating the widest application and conveying the ideal of a universal principle, without reference to marriage, eliminating the concept that this is binding only on the married.

Paul W. Marsh writes concerning the long-standing tradition of veiled women in Asia:

A study of life among veiled women in Asia reveals that both aspects of the word (exousia-authority) are true. A sign of being under own authority and that in experience no contradiction exists. The concept fundamental to all cultures utilizing the veil is the subjection of woman to man. yet within the realm of subjection, the woman has a place of authority, dignity, respect and security. This is provided by the veil itself which preserves her dignity in contrast to the unveiled woman whose bare face is the evidence of loose morals, or the general shamelessness of Western habits. Many Moslem women confess to a feeling of utter nakedness and shame on being seen without a veil; the veil is their greatest right and security. Paul argues from a somewhat similar background. For a Corinthian woman to throw off her veil in church was not only to deny her subjection but to abandon her dignity. According to Detweiler, the commandment had a four fold purpose: 1. It is a witness of obedience and dedication to G-d and Messiah, for it reveals a desire to fill the sphere of life designated by G-d's order. 2. It is a witness to man challenging him fill his place. 3. It is a witness in the Christian brotherhood, for the spirit and attitude of voluntary submission it represents enables woman to fulfill her place in the church. 4. It is a witness to the world, to a society that disregards Scriptural truth and practices, and that does not recognize G-d's order. It is interesting that the second part of the passage is dealing with communion is universally practiced but the first half of chapter eleven is widely ignored. Paul was writing not only to the Corinthians, but "to all the churches of G-d". I Corinthians 14:39 states all Paul's teachings here are commandments.
V. Conclusions
For those who may regard the veiling as a quaint little religious symbol used only by a few culturally bound sects, it must be remembered that all cultures abound in symbols, including our contemporary culture. There are, for example, numerous emblems of both religious and secular organizations.

It is not a matter of the validity of a particular symbol with which one needs to be concerned, but rather, whether it is of divine or human origin.

G-d is concerned about the attitude of our heart and one of the ways it has been evident is the mention of head coverings. It has obviously connected itself with many aspects of womanhood and has symbolized modesty and submission to one's husband, "that you should remember the L-rd, your G-d."

Dr. Enos Martin on the present tension in male-female relationships states:



The anxiety in male-female relationships today is thefear of "being taken". Mothers warn daughters, "Becareful, men are out to take advantage of you." Menwarn each other, "Be careful when you get close to thatwoman or she will manipulate you."The church is one place in the world where we ought tobe free of the fear of being taken; one place where ourhopes and fears are known and respected. the coveringon a Christian woman is a symbol that she is in arelationship with her brothers where she is protectedand respected, a relationship where she doesn't needto fear being taken or used, a relationship where sheneed not manipulate her brothers for survival, butwhere her Christian brothers delight to enhance herlife.The covering signifies that the Christian woman is in arelationship where her brothers care for her as Messiahcared for the church. The covering then should be anattractive symbol of a beautiful relationship existingbetween Christian brothers and sisters. Let us be careful for G-d looks on the intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12). We are not to be as the Pharisees and Saducees, who flaunted outward religion without reason or conviction of heart. Was this a sign of divine origin from the beginning of time? It was mentioned in all Scripture from the earliest time, and was threaded throughout the history of every culture. How much should we be influenced by our culture styles and fashion? Our responsibility is keeping, in proportion, ourselves to the Word of G-d and our obedience to Him. If we do accept head covering for ourselves, is it not a sign of freedom and a sign of our betrothal to Messiah and man? Let every man be convinced in his own mind (Romans 14:5).

We need to realize that we are free when we do not have to submit to an unholy inner drive to prove our equality to men […]

[simchat_torah]

NO FAIR!!!!!!!!


There wasn't an option under the poll for, "I'm not a woman."

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Shalom Henaynei,

I have, for about 3 years now been convicted to cover my head all the time, but at the moment I only cover when I pray or if I was to read from the Bible in public.

Three years ago I'd read about four theological papers on the subject of covering which had summarised the following:

- that the word 'covered' in 1 Cor 11:2-15 is meant to refer to a veil and not just hair.

- they emphasised 1 Cor 11:10 in that women are to cover our heads as an example "to the angels" (to quote what was written). They had used some verses in Isaiah where in the L-rd's presence the angels covered but they escape me now.

It has encouraged me reading another thread here about the wife's role on the Sabbath because I had been covering my hair and praying not realising that other women do it too. So, at least I am being led on the right path at long last :clap:

BTW thank you for your 4th post as that has answered some questions I had about what was originally done.

G-d bless

[Phileo]

Shalom to all. I do not cover my hair, because I believe that The Most High is my covering: Psalms 91:4 ~He shall COVER thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Also, because of this scripture: 1st Cor. 11:15 ~ But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a COVERING. I don't have long hair, but Jesus covering me is alot better then my hair.:prayer:

What grace said!:hug: :blush:

[simchat_torah]

I have broken Henaynei's request by being a male, and posting in this thread, though it was merely to tease Henaynei (we have a playful relationship akin to an old grandma and her grandson ;) )

However, I did notice that she kindly requested the audience of Messianic ladies, be them gentile or Jew. So, simply consider this as a small public reminder to those posting in this thread that Henaynei has requested the Messianic input.

Well, Ladies..... Messianic (Jews and gentiles) women only, please :blush:
Thank you and Shalom Ladies,
Yafet.

[Henaynei]

Shalom all....

I just wanted to comment on ST's post.



T'was I who asked ST to intervene with a gentle reminder (sounds so much better coming from him than me!!) about the intent of this thread.




I am aware that the christian woman who covers is very rare, and that all thinking CW have at least cursorily dealt with the covering question and have made a thoughtful decision to not cover.



In this thread, however, it was not my intent to deal with why/why not or how/how not the CW woman covers but rather specifically and distinctly the why’s and how’s of the issue for the MJ woman.



I am sure that there are numerous threads else where in CF where CW have pursued this issue, deep and wide! :cool:

(we have a playful relationship akin to an old grandma and her grandson ;) )
Hmm...... seems like when I was a'young'en dey taught a'ho'lot more 'bout 'spectin' yer betters, boy!!:P

[ShirChadash]

Vote - Speak up - explain yourself.....
When discussing what you do (or don't do) try to fully explain when you cover, where you cover, how much you cover and with what you cover - and for how long (years??)
Shalom! I too cover my hair pretty much all through my day and evenings. I wear a variety of scarves from this website:
(oops, I can't post a weblink yet)

I began covering about 3.5 years ago, before we had stepped into learning more about Messianic Judaism. I have tried nearly every type of covering I could think of trying and I had a terrible time finding what I felt is "right" for me to cover with, as I found myself being mistaken for a Mennonite/Hutterite/Amish/charity fellowship woman, or a Catholic nun or an Islamic woman. :o :D I wanted to avoid identifying myself with groups of which I am not a member.

When I first began covering my hair, I covered always, at home/church/wherever I went. But we changed churches about 8 mos after I had been covering, and we were unsure how people would react in this very large, non-denom church where no one really knew us and our hearts (does that make sense? We didn't want to put up a barrier or put people "off" so that they might find me unapproachable or presume us to be "holier-than-thou"-ish, so I stopped covering for services for a time). In the last 6 mos or so, YHWH Elohim has brought me back to covering during services, and I feel released to do so as I now know our pastor and his wife are very supportive of my conviction.

When my DH and I were discerning the call for me to be covered, we read many excellent articles, one of which was from a Messianic Jewish perspective (although it is a different article from the one cited above). As others here mentioned, we too spent a lot of time in prayer and seeking to know the Father's Will and heart on the issue, and it seems to me we discerned and discussed it for a couple of months before I covered outside our home. The very most significant thing for me in my covering was coming to an understanding that the covering of my head is the direction of my ever unchanging Father -- as in all things, His Will and instruction for His children has never changed -- and my desire is to conform myself to Him and His Will.
:pink: Zem

ps. if anyone is put off by my use of YHWH or Elohim or anything else in my posting, please do let me know. I am very new to posting among Messianic Jews, and I do not wish to offend.

[Pray4Isrel]

I suppose a lot of my questions still stem from "Where do I belong as a Messianic Gentile?"
I am working through this answer, and as soon as I come to grips with where exactly my place is in MJ, I am holding off in certain areas.
Sure, I eat Kosher and have since 1997, sure I observe Shabbat and am an active Member of my Synagogue.
But yet, with this issue of head coverings... I am not sure.
:sigh:

[Talmidah]

I do cover, although I must admit that I don't do it all the time. I began covering with the basic 'charity' type coverings, but now I mainly use the ones from tznius.com ( http://www.tznius.com/cgi-bin/group.pl?id=17 ). I don't always cover at home, although I'm trying to me more consistent with it. I always cover when leaving the house.

For me, it is both a matter of modesty and submission. I belong to my beloved and this is one sign/symbol of that. As a practical matter, it cuts down on worrying about 'bad hair days' :eek:. I also find that I am treated in a much more respectful manner by people when I am covered. I have also gotten into some nice conversations with ladies who were curious and asked about my reasons for covering.

[Henaynei]

It is so good to hear of others who cover. In my community I am the only one who does, that is covers all her hair and all the time. There are a few others fro whom my covering has moved to cover their hair with a hat or doily or small scarf at shul - some just when the Scroll is out, others for the full service. But then I have to say that most fo the men don't cover except in the shul either.

It seems that a discussion of Torah/traditional modesty for men and women alike is so divisive as to be untouchable in most MJ quarters.

[Talmidah]

It is so good to hear of others who cover. ...
It seems that a discussion of Torah/traditional modesty for men and women alike is so divisive as to be untouchable in most MJ quarters.

Henaynei,
I know just what you mean. But unfortunately, it has seemed to me that most topics relating to Torah obedience are divisive in most MJ quarters. I've found that to be the case both in my own congregation and on online groups I've participated in. :rolleyes:

[Henaynei]

shamelss bump!!!

[blessed2]

I am both curious and considering.
I have been conscious of covering during prayer since I started looking
into Messianic Judaism.

[Multi-Elis]

I replied in the name of the days when I went to a messianic synagogue in Israel. Nobody covered their head except for those who felt convicted to do so. I think I'd rather have my head shaven than feel under bondage to wear a head covering. And that really is a shame.

[ShirChadash]

:) That is the beautiful difference between conviction and condemnation: it is freedom, not bondage, to cover when it is a conviction :)

[Henaynei]

:) That is the beautiful difference between conviction and condemnation: it is freedom, not bondage, to cover when it is a conviction :)
Omeyn!!:clap:

[schwartmrs]

Funny. I was thinking the same thing....I've been wrestling around with this issue for a while.

It's interesting. When I finally discussed it with hubby and covered my head, all I could think was "at last, I'm allowed to." I didn't realize it until I had been covered for a numbered of hours, but I had actually been in bondage to the restriction against covering...once I allowed myself to cover, I felt so free!!!

Does this make any sense???

Shade

[Henaynei]

Funny. I was thinking the same thing....I've been wrestling around with this issue for a while.

It's interesting. When I finally discussed it with hubby and covered my head, all I could think was "at last, I'm allowed to." I didn't realize it until I had been covered for a numbered of hours, but I had actually been in bondage to the restriction against covering...once I allowed myself to cover, I felt so free!!!

Does this make any sense???

Shade
Yes, sister - it makes a great DEAL of sense - we are free to obey, not just free to not obey ;)

[brentsbaby612]

For me, it is both a matter of modesty and submission. I belong to my beloved and this is one sign/symbol of that. As a practical matter, it cuts down on worrying about 'bad hair days' . I also find that I am treated in a much more respectful manner by people when I am covered. I have also gotten into some nice conversations with ladies who were curious and asked about my reasons for covering.

I currently cover only in prayer, but reading this makes me want to start covering in public too! :)

[brentsbaby612]

I have been covering during prayer for 4 years with just a white cloth I made. I am curious though about why some women choose to cover inside thier home. Shouldn't your husband see your hair? :scratch:

[ShirChadash]

One reason I cover inside my home is to recognize I am always under Dh's and the Ruach's authority. Also, since I am a mama, and I also homeschool, what we have found is that the children remember that I speak to them with their father's (and their Father's ;) ) authority, a little better, when they see the reminder of my head scarf on my head. Believe it or not, it makes a difference.

[schwartmrs]

Hmmm...well, for me, it's not an issue of modesty...it's an issue of obedience. I cover in my home, and my hubby works from 9 am until 1 am...so I only see him for a half an hour or so in the wee hours of the morning. During the day, he is at work, and the kids are at school and I am home alone...covered. Out in the "world" there are people who would be offended by my covering...but in my home, I am free to obey...it makes everything I do in that covering an act of obedience...even cleaning....

Also, I must admit that there is a serious temptation to use my time alone "selfishly." To read a book instead of study the Bible...to play solitaire instead of fold the laundry...have you guessed yet that I struggle with procrastination?? lol But when I am covered, I have a constant reminder that my time is the Lord's, and that I should use it diligently....that my mind is the Lord's and I should use it for His glory.

When the kids come home in a "mood" the covering on my head reminds me that I need to be a Godly model for them...and not lose my temper.

In short, I am a better person when I wear it. It reminds me that I belong to the Lord...and that is a reminder that I need always...

[ShirChadash]

^That is an excellent point, Schwartmrs; thanks for sharing that! I know, for me, my attitude and my whole countenance change when I cover, too.


My wearing a scarf directly impacted my DH to step up and take his place as spiritual head of our family as well -- meaning this; we grew up in a church that never talks about men being the head of their families... never teaches women to respect their husbands, really, nor what it MEANS to do so... and doesn't teach men to lead their family either. My dear husband grew up with a very passive-aggressive papa, and so he also had no in-home example. It was quite a role-reversal for us, really, to come to grow into our appropriate roles with regard to one another in our home, actually... and years ago, when my Dh saw me beginning to cover, it convicted him to finally step up and begin to take his place of both authority and responsibility/accountability before Abba for our family, as my husband and as our children's father. It really affected him to know I was willingly taking my own place of spiritual submission under his covering as well.

[Yeshuaismine1985]

I was rasied Catholic and wore a veil for many years until Vatican 2. Then we didn't need to wear them any more and I really did miss it. I left the church not long after that. Now that I belong to a Messianic congregation I see some women wear them and I'm thinking about doing the same, at least when I pray. I do have a question and hope it's ok to ask. Does it have to be a special veil can it be one I make or what? I'd love some feed back on this.
Thank you

[schwartmrs]

I did a search on the internet, and found many, many different styles. Then I took what I liked, used it as a pattern, and made my own.

Shade

[Yeshuaismine1985]

Could someone tell me were to go on the internet. I'm new at all this computer stuff, and the more I think about it the more I really want to do this. I really need help in this.

[ShirChadash]

I have loads of links. Let me round some up for you :)

[ShirChadash]

My fav -- all my scarves are from here. I love everything they have ;) and they have a helpful page on tying your scarves many different ways, too:
http://www.tznius.com/

I don't know if this is an older one of the above company's site, but here's another site on tying scarves:
http://www.tzniusonline.com/wear2.html

and their scarves listed:
http://www.tzniusonline.com/scarves.html


Another site with beautiful Jewish scarves, snoods, kippot etc.
http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/products.html

http://www.headcovers.com/item.php?cat=Scarves&next=0&PHPSESSID=a5113e25a8659357398587d590130a77

Lost of modest clothing, headcovering etc. links are on this page:
http://proudmommy.tripod.com/shopping.html

Both ready-made covers and also patterns
http://www.headcoverings.com/

Charity (D-shaped) "veils" and caps-styles
http://www.christiancoverings.com/

For those wanting a more "cap" style, I have a dear friend who put her pattern directions online (this type is as easy as can be to sew, really):
http://www.andersonsplace.net/sewing/caul_cap.htm

A Catholic site:
http://www.halo-works.com/

Many styles
http://www.prayercoverings.com/links.shtml

HTH!

[Yeshuaismine1985]

TANKS FOR THE INFO NOW MY HEAD IS JUST SPENING WITH IDEAS. YOU HAVE REALLY HELPED ME ALOT THANKS AGAIN.

[Sephania]

I like that the one site has modest bathing suits. :)

[ShirChadash]

*nod* some of these have the nicest modest clothing choices!

[debi b]

Personally I cover when I pray. When I am around other people my choice is guided by what will be offensive or not to others (not by their personal choice). If I am in a place where people will not understand I cover my face with my hands. Freedom of expression is often guided by understanding. I have been doing this for about 20 years.

[schwartmrs]

Zem,

Wonderful links! I even found some that I had missed on my own search! The coverings that I made closely resemble the ones that Devorah has on her "scarf" page...I don't put any trim or fringe around the "bottom" though...all of mine is in the front...that way, I can use the guides on the tznius page for tying them...

and you know, they're a lot of fun to make, too!!! trims, and beads, and bells, oh my!!

Shade

[Christy4Christ]

LOL I was wondering what this thread was doing in OBOB and I voted! After that I realized that it wasn't in OBOB! Sorry disregard one of the "I never cover my head" votes..

[Sephania]

.

[Sephania]

I would just like to add that the only time I am uncovered besides in the shower and bed time is when my husband desires to uncover me so he can look at my hair. I must say that before I did this, he never really paid attention, now he really does and tells me how he loves to look at it and touch it and feels honored that it is only him that is allowed to do so.

Also since we are to be covered when praying and I don't have a specific time to do this all the time but when I see a need then I don't have to go running for a covering. :)

[Katydid]

OK well this is my first post on this board, and I voted considering. My husband wants me to and I have been very stubborn about it. I come up with every imaginable excuse. I also never knew how other Messianics felt about it. See, I have never been to a synagogue, everything I learned was from reading and the three other Messianics I know. Now I have more to think about, thank you so much for posting this topic.

[-Kyriaki-]

hi everyone *waves* this is my first post here.
i'm not messianic but i have friends who are and i thought i'd look, and i came across this post, so i thought i'd respond.

i cover my hair if i'm meeting for study or for church, and i cover it to pray or read the bible. i felt led to once, and i've done it ever since. my denomination doesn't teach to, but it was a personal conviction of mine.

[Henaynei]

hi everyone *waves* this is my first post here.
i'm not messianic but i have friends who are and i thought i'd look, and i came across this post, so i thought i'd respond.

i cover my hair if i'm meeting for study or for church, and i cover it to pray or read the bible. i felt led to once, and i've done it ever since. my denomination doesn't teach to, but it was a personal conviction of mine. Welcome Kyrie ;) :wave:

[Sephania]

Here is another site that speaks out on what Sha'ul was talking of to the Corinthians on head covering http://www.centurionministry.org/body/head-covering.asp

[By Grace]

The purpose of head covering is to honor your husband, so I don't cover because my husband would actually be offended by it. He's trying to be patient with me as I'm learning about MJ and teaching him, but he can only take so many changes at a time.

I'm confused about something, though. In the same passage in 1Cor where it talks about women covering their heads, it says it's a shame for men to cover their heads, and yet don't Jewish men wear a little cap (don't remember what it's called)? Can someone tell me what I'm missing here?

TIA,

[By Grace]

One more question: if it's a shame for a man to have long hair, then why would G-d not want Samson to cut his hair? Isn't that being inconsistent?

[Amandine]

The Nazers (a special ascetic calling in Judaism) wore their hair long. I think Samson was a Nazer. But then, I could be mixing up my info...help, anybody? :)
-Catherine

[Sephania]

The purpose of head covering is to honor your husband, so I don't cover because my husband would actually be offended by it. He's trying to be patient with me as I'm learning about MJ and teaching him, but he can only take so many changes at a time.

I'm confused about something, though. In the same passage in 1Cor where it talks about women covering their heads, it says it's a shame for men to cover their heads, and yet don't Jewish men wear a little cap (don't remember what it's called)? Can someone tell me what I'm missing here?

TIA,
No, the purpose ( and my understanding of it) is to honor HaShem, and be in obedience to him. I look at it as a two fold thing. One, is that a womans hair is called her "glory" this is her beauty and a large percentage of women in the US spend millions a year on hair care products, more than any other beauty treatments. Curlers, color change dyes ( many to blond) , frostings, barrettes, oins, head bands, pony tail wrappers, clips, perms, hairstlyes, gray covering dyes,shampoos, hair conditioners, oil treatments, massages, etc. Let's face it , all that money is not spent on these products to impress other women! ;)

That is because it is the pride and attraction of a womans beauty. It is very sexual ( or can be looked at this way) in nature, as when a man looks at a woman, hair is usually noticed first, it is an attention grabber, then they proceed to check out the face and body quickly afterward, but the hair is usually what attracts first. Since it has this power, it should only be reserved for viewing ( if the woman is married) by her husband and keep hidden under tastful coverings that can be stylish too.

The other reason is connected to this somewhat in that when a woman is praying or prophesying she should be covered ( this is to outwardly show obedience of the "chain of command" to the angels.) Thus this shows that the husband is head over the woman as Y'shua is head over the man. Now a man is not covered with a Kippot, it is small and only sits on a small section of the head, but is there to show reverence for the L-Rd and that it is He alone who is head over him.

Perhaps if you explain this to your husband he will see that you are not only honoring him but honoring the L-Rd as well.

One viewing of a Clariol Herbal Essence shampoo comercial should convince anyone.


Maybe you could start with a pulled up hairstyle ( instead of long and loose if you have shoulder length hair or longer) or go for a wide headband.

Beleive it or not, men still look at me with my head completely covered but it is in a different way, they are more respectful also. My husband feels honored and proud that I am obeying HaShem and that I am honoring him and keeping something just for him and also he likes the mystery of it because he knows that only he can uncover it, no one else. ;)

[Sephania]

Just wondering, I noticed on the poll that there are 4 here who cover completely, I know I am one, Henaynei is another and Zemirah? but who is the third?

Just so those of you who are wondering about it, you don't have to look like a nun, I have made several different styles of coverings, have not bought any (except regular scarfs) and everyone always makes complimentary comments on them, including men, even my Rabbi who doesn't even notice how he dresses, told me he liked one I made!

[K'romah]

Shalom! I might be the fourth -- I just voted. I also cover completely...or mostly. Sometimes I wear a bandana which is really too small to cover my whole head, but I put my hair up with a barrett or pins so it is mostly covered.

The verse that first got me started covering more & more years ago was the one in Thessalonians "Pray without ceasing." A few have said that they cover when praying, but I reasoned that if we're to pray without ceasing, then we would have to be covered without ceasing, also, right?

[By Grace]

The verse that first got me started covering more & more years ago was the one in Thessalonians "Pray without ceasing." A few have said that they cover when praying, but I reasoned that if we're to pray without ceasing, then we would have to be covered without ceasing, also, right?
This has been my dilemma, also. I don't mind covering for prayer, but I pray very frequently throughout the day and most of the time, it's on the go. I may be nursing my baby, chasing after my toddler, walking to the mailbox, cleaning the kitchen, driving, whatever. It's not like I get to sit down and devote my 100% attention every time I want to pray. So I would have to be covered all the time, whether I'm at home, around my DH, or out and about. But if my husband is offended by it, then I don't feel I should cover at all (if he has authority over me, shouldn't I respect his opinion?). Maybe I can try a wide headband and work my way into it, but I'm not really sure where to get stuff like that, or how he would react to it. (Any suggestions?) I'm slowly teaching him about all these things I've been learning, but he is very resistant to change, so I'm kind of trying to address the most important issues first.

Kind of OT: Just recently, my husband came home and said he had been thinking about the conversations we've had recently. He said that I could talk to him about any of it that I wanted to for 7 minutes each day! :) He said that's more than 5 min, but less than 10, and he felt like he could actively listen to what I had to say for that long without shutting down on me. At least that's more than I had before. I've tried to be respectful of when he's really too tired to listen and not said anything on those days. And he's been good about asking questions and letting me go over the 7 min if I'm really getting excited about it all. Mostly, though, I haven't gotten much feedback on how he feels. Hopefully, we're making progress.

[Henaynei]

how HaShem has blessed you with wisdom Grace!!!

[schwartmrs]

Just a quick note here. When I was first considering covering, I started with a headband, and sometimes a really wide hair barrette. I was doing this for 3 years before my husband even noticed, and even then, it was only because I TOLD him...heheh. I also used to wear a bandana around the house...he just thought it was to keep the hair out of my eyes when I was cleaning.

As to the authority issue, I have had to face a similar dilemma. My husband does not mind if I cover at home, or when we are at an "obviously Messianic" function. But he does not want me to "cover in an obvious way" when we are in church or out on the street.

He says that his reading of scripture tells him that we are not to cause others to stumble, and he feels that covering in an obvious way would cause others to stumble. He also feels that attention would be drawn to the covering and the covering issue...and thus away from the L-rd.

He is the authority over me...if I am rebelling against him, does my covering really stand for anything anyway???

So I cover at home, and whenever I'm at a "Messianic function." And at church and "on the street" I am still in a headband or a hair barrette. My husband knows I'm covered...G-d knows I'm covered...I am doing what I feel I'm called to do, and I'm obeying my husband....and isn't that what it's all about?? submitting to G-d and my husband?

Shade

[ShirChadash]

and didn't get back to it until now. Well said, Shade.

Just a quick note here. When I was first considering covering, I started with a headband, and sometimes a really wide hair barrette. I was doing this for 3 years before my husband even noticed, and even then, it was only because I TOLD him...heheh. I also used to wear a bandana around the house...he just thought it was to keep the hair out of my eyes when I was cleaning.

As to the authority issue, I have had to face a similar dilemma. My husband does not mind if I cover at home, or when we are at an "obviously Messianic" function. But he does not want me to "cover in an obvious way" when we are in church or out on the street.

He says that his reading of scripture tells him that we are not to cause others to stumble, and he feels that covering in an obvious way would cause others to stumble. He also feels that attention would be drawn to the covering and the covering issue...and thus away from the L-rd.

He is the authority over me...if I am rebelling against him, does my covering really stand for anything anyway???

So I cover at home, and whenever I'm at a "Messianic function." And at church and "on the street" I am still in a headband or a hair barrette. My husband knows I'm covered...G-d knows I'm covered...I am doing what I feel I'm called to do, and I'm obeying my husband....and isn't that what it's all about?? submitting to G-d and my husband?

Shade

[Sephania]

But isnt' that a mixed witness? :scratch: Sounds to me like you are conforming to the world and not the word.

[ShirChadash]

I think everyone must determine how, when, where etc. they will cover...

For me, I covered for for a couple of years, everywhere all of the time. Then for a period of about 3 years, when we were in the last church we were in, I never covered outside the house -- it was a big church, and for once I actually felt like it would be more of a stumbling block to the very many brand new believers who come there to begin their walk with the Lord. But spiritually, I had wondered that and worried over that even before, when I was first covering also

Please forgive me for saying this -- it isn't intended at anyone in particular at all but just a general sharing...

I think the whisper in our ears that it will cause others to stumble is almost never the truth in reality. I had the pastor's blessing to continue to cover in that church if I wanted to -- he wasn't one bit worried about fielding questions on my behalf and he knew I could answer for myself and my DH could certainly answer from an authority-standpoint as well -- but I knew they had so many people who came into that church due to its many outreaches, and I worried it would cause others to stumble even if I didn't know it.

In about the last six months, I have thrown aside all excuses and concerns and returned to full-time obedience. I pray my covering will never cause others to stumble in any way, if they are at a place in their walk with the Lord where it would give confusing signals, etc. But, I must obey the Lord as He has called me to obey. I believe it is valid for people to choose to cover only at certain times, especially to begin with, but even if they simply feel that's the way they are called...

but if it's because we think others will stumble, I think the truth of that being the case... well, the situations are going to be very rare when it really would be the case. This is all totally my opinion, but I feel that most often it is our own excuses that lands us on the "others will be offended, won't understand, will be set back by it" tack. I really believe now that serious, humble self-examination is in order if we (husband and/or wife) find ourselves using that argument -- I don't think it is often from the Lord. I say this, having been there myself, and I say this as one who has "walked" along with many women now, over the years, as they journtey into covering as well... and as we share our walk, it's become clear to me that this is one of very few ways the enemy effectively convinces couples not to practice covering, or to do so full-time, or not to do so in certain circumstances, etc, rather than allowing the Lord to send His Spirit before us to prepare people's hearts not to turn US away because we do cover.

Personally:
The reason I felt that it really could cause others to stumble in the church we were in is because of the specific ministries G-d places me in; in counseling and coming alongside couples and single women in ministry, I didn't want (myself or for us as a couple) to appear "holier than them" to anyone, as if *I* was trying to be that, or thought I WAS that.

Looking back, I still can see that the fact was most people would not have been offended, I actually can't think of anyone who would have been, now; they weren't offended the few times I did cover at the beginning of our attendance there, and at the end just before we left. Never once did I receive a negative reaction, and now that I am covering full-time once again, I still don't receive a negative reaction.

People are blessed by it -- it's almost strange, but people say they are actually blessed just by the sight of me covering ( :confused: I dunno! It has always struck me as strange) . It actually makes me more approachable, and people will out of the blue just ask me about it -- which is quite the opposite of what I think the enemy tries to get us to believe: that it will make us less approachable and will limit our opportunities to minister, etc.

Anyway, rambleramble. These are just my incoherent thoughts this afternoon...

[By Grace]

Just out of curiosity: I haven't gotten around to studying head covering yet, other than that one passage in the NT. Can someone point me to some Scriptures that they use as their basis for head covering?

TIA,

[Sephania]

I believe Henaynei did on page one.There are also other sites posted in this thread that have scriptures regarding this. Mainly 1 cor 11.

[K'romah]

I haven't gotten around to studying head covering yet, other than that one passage in the NT.

Shalom, Grace. Or Jill. (scratching head in puzzlement)
Is the "one passage" you're referring to 1 Corinthians 11:7-10?

Stern's CJB translation is:
For a man indeed should not have his head veiled, because he is the image and glory of God, and the woman is the glory of man. 11:8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man; 11:9 and indeed man was not created for the sake of the woman but woman for the sake of the man. 11:10 The reason a woman should show by veiling her head that she is under authority has to do with the angels.

This is the basic 'men uncover, women cover' command. The verse indicates that the purpose of the headcovering is because of a woman's place in the natural order: G-d--> man --> woman. The headship would apply only to married women, since single women are directly under G-d. Note that Stern uses "veiled" instead of "covered." This, I think, is because Stern is trying to reflect the Greek that Rav Sha'ul used, which employed different Greek words for the natural hair covering and the headship covering. This relates to the mistaken idea that a woman's hair IS her covering, or is sufficient covering. Look at the Greek words in the passage: Sha'ul said that men should not cover/katakalupto (Strong's 2619) their heads. And in verse 11 Sha'ul contrasts that with: "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered/akatakaluptos/?" (Strong's 177) Note that 'uncovered' (akatakaluptos) is the opposite of 'to cover' (katakalupto). Akatakaluptos basically means to UNcover or UNveil. So, I'm thinkin' for this reason, Stern used "veiled" and "veiling" to distinguish an "extra" covering put on on top of the hair.


Now for where the confusion comes in: When Sha'ul refers to a woman's natural hair covering, he uses an altogether different word: "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering/peribolaion." (Strong's 4018). Peribolaion means something thrown around (loose items like a veil, a mantle, a vesture). Hair is more like a glorious decoration given to woman. Now if Sha'ul had meant the naturally occuring hair covering and the headship-type covering to be one and the same, he would have used the same word for each. Instead, a woman's natural glorious hair covering (peribolaion) is being contrasted to this other covering (katakalupto) that women wear or put on. In fact, the katakalupto actually *covers* the peribolaion. Sha'ul began this passage showing the contrasts between men and women: men are uncovered, women are covered. Then Sha'ul supports his case for headcovering by pointing out that even in nature a women is given a covering -- by her long hair. But Sha'ul never makes the leap that hair itself is a suitable headcover alone. If such a natural covering sufficed, then Sha'ul is wasting his time teaching this since the women already had a natural hair covering. Sha'ul deliberately used different words for the two coverings so we would understand they were complementary to each other but not identical.

There are several scriptural passages indicating headcovering was a common practice among married/betrothed women in Biblical times:

Genesis (B'resheet) 24 24:64 Rivkah too looked up; and when she saw Yitz'chak, she quickly dismounted the camel. 24:65 She said to the servant,"Who is this man walking in the field to meet us?"When the servant replied, "It's my master," she took her veil and covered herself.

and Numbers 5:18 shows that wifely headcovering was an established practice (a woman suspected of adultery comes before the priest): "And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse." In order to uncover, she must have been previously covered; the assumption is that any wife brought before the priest will be covered.

Enough for now...:-)

[By Grace]

Shalom, Grace. Or Jill. (scratching head in puzzlement)

Thank you for all this information. My real name is Jill, but I chose my screenname b/c I'm saved "by grace". It also has a couple of other meanings for me: I first chose this screenname a few years ago for a parenting forum, and it emphasizes that I'm a mom b/c of G-d's grace (we had fertility issues). I'm also a mom b/c of my daughter, whose middle name is Grace.

Is the "one passage" you're referring to 1 Corinthians 11:7-10?

Stern's CJB translation is:
For a man indeed should not have his head veiled, because he is the image and glory of God, and the woman is the glory of man. 11:8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man; 11:9 and indeed man was not created for the sake of the woman but woman for the sake of the man. 11:10 The reason a woman should show by veiling her head that she is under authority has to do with the angels.

This is the basic 'men uncover, women cover' command. The verse indicates that the purpose of the headcovering is because of a woman's place in the natural order: G-d--> man --> woman. The headship would apply only to married women, since single women are directly under G-d. Note that Stern uses "veiled" instead of "covered." This, I think, is because Stern is trying to reflect the Greek that Rav Sha'ul used, which employed different Greek words for the natural hair covering and the headship covering. This relates to the mistaken idea that a woman's hair IS her covering, or is sufficient covering. Look at the Greek words in the passage: Sha'ul said that men should not cover/katakalupto (Strong's 2619) their heads. And in verse 11 Sha'ul contrasts that with: "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered/akatakaluptos/?" (Strong's 177) Note that 'uncovered' (akatakaluptos) is the opposite of 'to cover' (katakalupto). Akatakaluptos basically means to UNcover or UNveil. So, I'm thinkin' for this reason, Stern used "veiled" and "veiling" to distinguish an "extra" covering put on on top of the hair.


Now for where the confusion comes in: When Sha'ul refers to a woman's natural hair covering, he uses an altogether different word: "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering/peribolaion." (Strong's 4018). Peribolaion means something thrown around (loose items like a veil, a mantle, a vesture). Hair is more like a glorious decoration given to woman. Now if Sha'ul had meant the naturally occuring hair covering and the headship-type covering to be one and the same, he would have used the same word for each. Instead, a woman's natural glorious hair covering (peribolaion) is being contrasted to this other covering (katakalupto) that women wear or put on. In fact, the katakalupto actually *covers* the peribolaion. Sha'ul began this passage showing the contrasts between men and women: men are uncovered, women are covered. Then Sha'ul supports his case for headcovering by pointing out that even in nature a women is given a covering -- by her long hair. But Sha'ul never makes the leap that hair itself is a suitable headcover alone. If such a natural covering sufficed, then Sha'ul is wasting his time teaching this since the women already had a natural hair covering. Sha'ul deliberately used different words for the two coverings so we would understand they were complementary to each other but not identical.

Yes, this is the passage I was referring to (sorry about that--I didn't take the time to look it up right then). Thank you for the background on the terms used. I'm still having a hard time seeing this as a command to cover, though, since he seems to go back and forth on whether it's really all that important. "(5) but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame to her head--there is no difference between her and a woman who has had her head shaved. (6) For if a woman is not veiled, let her also have her hair cut short; but if it is shameful for a woman to wear her hair cut short or to have her head shaved, then let her be veiled." (1 Cor 11:5-6) That, to me, is saying that if she shouldn't have her hair cut short, then she should also be veiled. But if she can have her hair cut short without it's being shameful, then there's no need for a veil. And in our society, short hair on women is not shameful, but rather, is the norm. Then he goes on to say, "(12) for as the woman was made from the man, so also the man is now born through the woman. But everything is from God. (13) Decide for yourselves...." So that seems like he's making a point that there's not as much difference as we might think, between male and female. Is he saying "Decide for yourselves" to truly give them independence in the decision, based on the society they lived in, or is he simply trying to lead them into coming to the same conclusion that he had?


There are several scriptural passages indicating headcovering was a common practice among married/betrothed women in Biblical times:

Genesis (B'resheet) 24 24:64 Rivkah too looked up; and when she saw Yitz'chak, she quickly dismounted the camel. 24:65 She said to the servant,"Who is this man walking in the field to meet us?"When the servant replied, "It's my master," she took her veil and covered herself.

and Numbers 5:18 shows that wifely headcovering was an established practice (a woman suspected of adultery comes before the priest): "And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse." In order to uncover, she must have been previously covered; the assumption is that any wife brought before the priest will be covered.

Enough for now...:-)

Thank you for these examples. I'm not sure, though, whether these are examples that simply have to do with their cultural expectations (like riding on donkeys and camels, or having servants), or whether these are examples that we should follow ourselves, despite our culture. Any thoughts?

I really don't have any problem at all with other women covering, and actually I think it's really pretty and a great way to attract conversations in which you can share your beliefs. And maybe my resistance to all this is just that--resistance--rather than truly being secure in my beliefs that covering is not necessary. (And when I say "necessary", that's all relative, of course, since this is not a salvation issue.) I think that if my husband were open to it, I would love to give it a try; maybe I'm just trying to justify my not covering, since it seems that it would be more trouble than it's worth right now. OTOH, I really am trying to seek out G-d's will for me, regardless of my husband's opinion. But this is exactly why I have such a problem with the whole idea of a husband actually being in authority over his wife, since that gives the wife two masters to answer to, which is unscriptural. I can see the husband being the head of the wife in the sense that he's the source of his wife (as in, empowers her by his own free will so that he helps to undo the curse of male rulership that was placed on women after the Fall), rather than the lord of his wife. This is what Y'shua did: He came down from heaven to willingly die on the cross so that He could bestow upon His followers the same authority He Himself enjoyed. That, to me, is what male headship should be.

Thanks again. I look forward to learning more!

[Sephania]

Curse of male rulership? Where is there anywhere in the Book a curse of male rulership?

Just because this society accepts short hair on women does not mean it's G-dly. Far from it, it is another way of erasing the lines that HaShem made on the day of creation. From there you go to same jobs, same pay, women equal, marriage not having to be between a man and a woman, where does it end?

[K'romah]

Grace writesIs he saying "Decide for yourselves" to truly give them independence in the decision, based on the society they lived in, or is he simply trying to lead them into coming to the same conclusion that he had?

Jill, I think he's trying to lead them into coming to the same conclusion. It sounds to me like Sha'ul means this in the same way that he says "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?" -- which sounds rhetorical, almost sarcastic. Like "okay -- you tell me. Is this really okay?"

As for the passage where he seems to be going back and forth, this also seems to be offerred in the same kind of tone. It's like he's saying "if a woman is willing to be unveiled, she might as well cut her hair, and if she does THAT, she may as well go all the way in her shamelessness and completely shave her head!"

My understanding of the curse after the fall is that it's not male leadership that is the curse, but woman's hankering to be in leadership herself. "Your desire shall be for him" really means "your desire shall be to be in his position." When we cover ourselves, we show that we accept G-d's order of things, and willingly, joyfully, place ourselves under the leadership of our husbands, who are under the leadership of G-d. If the husband is in right relationship to HaShem, who is his authority, then being under the husband's authority doesn't put the wife under two masters at all. And if he isn't...HaShem will still hold him accountable for failing to properly protect and nurture his wife.

[By Grace]

My understanding of the curse after the fall is that it's not male leadership that is the curse, but woman's hankering to be in leadership herself. "Your desire shall be for him" really means "your desire shall be to be in his position." When we cover ourselves, we show that we accept G-d's order of things, and willingly, joyfully, place ourselves under the leadership of our husbands, who are under the leadership of G-d. If the husband is in right relationship to HaShem, who is his authority, then being under the husband's authority doesn't put the wife under two masters at all. And if he isn't...HaShem will still hold him accountable for failing to properly protect and nurture his wife.
Hmmm, I never thought about it that way, but it doesn't really seem right to me. On the contrary, after Chavah was created, they were both told to subdue it:

Gen 1:27 God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 God blessed them. God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Chavah was never told to serve Adam, but rather was told to rule with Adam. In fact, the term that is often translated "help meet" is a Hebrew word often used to describe G-d.

Gen 2:18 And the LORD3068 God430 said,559 It is not3808 good2896 that the man120 should be1961 alone;905 I will make6213 him a help5828 meet for him.5048

Deu 33:7 And this2063 is the blessing of Judah:3063 and he said,559 Hear,8085 LORD,3068 the voice6963 of Judah,3063 and bring935 him unto413 his people:5971 let his hands3027 be sufficient7227 for him; and be1961 thou a help5828 to him from his enemies.4480, 6862

Psa 33:20 Our soul5315 waiteth2442 for the LORD:3068 he1931 is our help5828 and our shield.4043
Psa 146:5 Happy835 is he that hath the God7945, 410 of Jacob3290 for his help,5828 whose hope7664 is in5921 the LORD3068 his God:430

(Sorry if my text looks funny, I haven't gotten all this copying and pasting figured out yet, and I can't seem to get the font size right.)

The curse for the woman was that her husband would "rule over her":
Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Which, as far as I can see, means that that was not the way it was intended to be. It's the consequence of her sin. That's why women are so victimized by men in so many relationships. But what Y'shua offers through the cross is redemption from this curse, so that men and women can rule equally.

I'm not saying women should rule over men. That would be just as destructive as men ruling over women. But I think that by accepting the consequences of sin as being G-d's original plan for us, we undermine what He's really trying to do.

Okay, it's hard to think straight when my font is messing up so much; I'll try to come back to this. I look forward to your response!

[Henaynei]

Neither was it His "original" plan that woman have pain in childbirth, but we do. And so too, as woman proved in the garden that she was more ruled by emotion and not well suited for leadership HaShem established the headship order in which the husband was the head. HaShem stated that we would have pain in childbirth, and He stated that while we might yearn for leadership (see the destruction that NOW hath wrought) that the proper order would hence forth be that man/husband had the headship. This is also re-established in the Ketuvim Natzrim (aka NT).

[By Grace]

Neither was it His "original" plan that woman have pain in childbirth, but we do. And so too, as woman proved in the garden that she was more ruled by emotion and not well suited for leadership HaShem established the headship order in which the husband was the head. HaShem stated that we would have pain in childbirth, and He stated that while we might yearn for leadership (see the destruction that NOW hath wrought) that the proper order would hence forth be that man/husband had the headship. This is also re-established in the Ketuvim Natzrim (aka NT).
Actually, according to the NIV translation (the one I have in front of me right now, sorry) it says "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing...." (Gen 3:16) That says to me that women would have experienced pain in childbearing in G-d's original plan, but not nearly as much as we tend to experience now. However, I also believe we are offered redemption from that part of the curse as well. In fact, I've posted here before (don't remember which thread) about my own experience of redemption from this curse when I gave birth to my second daughter earlier this year. Yes, I did experience pain, but not very much and not for very long. It was an incredibly easy delivery, with no drugs at all, and no complications, even though we had her at home (that part was NOT planned!).

It's not like Adam was blameless in the whole thing. He was there with Chavah the entire time, and yet he let her be deceived. They were both punished b/c they both sinned. Neither had any right to blame the other, and neither was less guilty.

Okay, my baby's waking up from her nap, so I'll have to get back to this during my next few minutes to myself!

[Henaynei]

Actually, according to the NIV translation (the one I have in front of me right now, sorry) it says "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing...." (Gen 3:16) That says to me that women would have experienced pain in childbearing in G-d's original plan, but not nearly as much as we tend to experience now. However, I also believe we are offered redemption from that part of the curse as well. In fact, I've posted here before (don't remember which thread) about my own experience of redemption from this curse when I gave birth to my second daughter earlier this year. Yes, I did experience pain, but not very much and not for very long. It was an incredibly easy delivery, with no drugs at all, and no complications, even though we had her at home (that part was NOT planned!).

It's not like Adam was blameless in the whole thing. He was there with Chavah the entire time, and yet he let her be deceived. They were both punished b/c they both sinned. Neither had any right to blame the other, and neither was less guilty.

Okay, my baby's waking up from her nap, so I'll have to get back to this during my next few minutes to myself! HaShem gave Adam the authority initially - you even elude to this yourself in saying the "he let her be deceived" and thus he was punished. And as I said, the Ketuvim Natzrim reconfirms the headship order several times ;) AND the rest of the pronouncements still stand, earning our food (or the ability to buy food) by hard work - and having thorny situations at work with whch we must deal and rejection from the garden, the necessity for sacrifice and spilled blood to cover our sin. HaShem has given us an order to things that he says will bring the most blessing and harmony into our world, and the deviation from this order will bring disruption and despair - and all we have to do is look around to see such. Were there men who abused and twisted scripture?? sure - sin and evil inclination is in the heart of every man and woman and without humility before HaShem and His word we ALL are prone to arrogance and willful excesses...... but such does in no way disprove the validity of HaShem's instructions, nay but rather proves it ;)

[By Grace]

HaShem gave Adam the authority initially - you even elude to this yourself in saying the "he let her be deceived" and thus he was punished. And as I said, the Ketuvim Natzrim reconfirms the headship order several times ;) AND the rest of the pronouncements still stand, earning our food (or the ability to buy food) by hard work - and having thorny situations at work with whch we must deal and rejection from the garden, the necessity for sacrifice and spilled blood to cover our sin. HaShem has given us an order to things that he says will bring the most blessing and harmony into our world, and the deviation from this order will bring disruption and despair - and all we have to do is look around to see such. Were there men who abused and twisted scripture?? sure - sin and evil inclination is in the heart of every man and woman and without humility before HaShem and His word we ALL are prone to arrogance and willful excesses...... but such does in no way disprove the validity of HaShem's instructions, nay but rather proves it ;)
First of all, are you asserting that G-d is saying it is better for women to experience increased pain in childbirth, just like it's supposedly better for women to be ruled by men? If that's the case, then do women sin when they use an epidural or prayer or whatever to avoid that extra pain?

Also, it's true that Chavah lacked discernment when she was deceived by the greatest deceiver known to mankind. But that doesn't mean that women will always lack discernment, especially if we constantly rely on the Holy Spirit to provide us with His discernment. When I said "he let her be deceived", what I was referring to is the fact that he was not deceived, and yet he still took the fruit. That makes him more prone to willful disobedience. But that doesn't mean that he earned the right to lead anyone by willfully disobeying rather than unintentionally disobeying. It also, BTW, doesn't mean that men will never be able to willfully obey. By the power of the Holy Spirit working in them, they, too, are able to overcome their sinful nature and perform G-d's will for them.

In fact, I think it's a heavy and perhaps unbearable burden that G-d placed on man when He said that women would desire men, because that makes women look to men to meet their needs, rather than women going to G-d to have their needs met like they were intended to do. It's a frustrating and even impossible task to meet the needs of a person you don't even understand! Only G-d fully understands us, and only He is capable of giving to us to the extent that any of us need.

I truthfully respect your opinions, Henny, and I've learned so much from you just in the couple of months I've been on this board. I know this isn't directly relevant to our topic, but I just want to make sure you know how much I respect you so that this disagreement between us doesn't affect our attitudes toward each other in the long run. :hug:

[Henaynei]

First of all, are you asserting that G-d is saying it is better for women to experience increased pain in childbirth, just like it's supposedly better for women to be ruled by men? If that's the case, then do women sin when they use an epidural or prayer or whatever to avoid that extra pain?



No, I am saying though that this is what HaShem said was going to be the way. If we still earn our food through struggle and childbirth is still painful, then the mandate that man be the head still stands.



Also, it's true that Chavah lacked discernment when she was deceived by the greatest deceiver known to mankind. But that doesn't mean that women will always lack discernment, especially if we constantly rely on the Holy Spirit to provide us with His discernment. When I said "he let her be deceived", what I was referring to is the fact that he was not deceived, and yet he still took the fruit. That makes him more prone to willful disobedience. But that doesn't mean that he earned the right to lead anyone by willfully disobeying rather than unintentionally disobeying. It also, BTW, doesn't mean that men will never be able to willfully obey. By the power of the Holy Spirit working in them, they, too, are able to overcome their sinful nature and perform G-d's will for them.





Chavah willfully disobeyed as much as Adam did. The serpent asked her what HaShem had said about the fruit and she replied. She was deceived by her own lusts and willfully disobeyed.



I tend to think that it is BECAUSE the woman tends to want to lead and the man tends to want to let her, or at least not fight her for it, that HaShem set things up the way He did. ;)



They had the Ruakh more powerfully with them than you or I will ever know until we stand physically in His presence. They were covered by the Ruakh. They spoke audibly with HaShem and walked with Him in the Garden.





In fact, I think it's a heavy and perhaps unbearable burden that G-d placed on man when He said that women would desire men, because that makes women look to men to meet their needs, rather than women going to G-d to have their needs met like they were intended to do. It's a frustrating and even impossible task to meet the needs of a person you don't even understand! Only G-d fully understands us, and only He is capable of giving to us to the extent that any of us need.





So, are YOU saying that HaShem was wrong in placing an “unbearable burden” on the men?



“Like they were intended to”? Intended by whom?? IF HaShem set it up that man should be the head of woman, and even strongly reaffirmed this again AFTER Yeshua’s sacrifice how can we question and challenge it as not what HaShem intended?



It is BECAUSE HaShem fully understands us that HE set man in headship over woman. I think we rather err in arrogance to challenge what HaShem has ordained. :)



I truthfully respect your opinions, Henny, and I've learned so much from you just in the couple of months I've been on this board. I know this isn't directly relevant to our topic, but I just want to make sure you know how much I respect you so that this disagreement between us doesn't affect our attitudes toward each other in the long run.




It is clear we disagree and in doing so detracts nothing from the respect in which I hold you as well!! :hug:
I spent all of the 70's and much of the 80's, even after surrendering to HaShem's salvation, fighting my proper place in His order, I was a strong Libber! I struggle with it still even today - just ask my friend K'romah who just spent several days in my home. The very fact that I struggle with it is proof that it is something in my life that HaShem wants to heal and set into His perfection. As I was brought up by strong, even dominering, women (momma taught me to never let the boys win unless it was to my advantage, no matter what!) it is likely the thorn in my flesh with which I will struggle to some degree until I go home. But I am never so free and at peace or as close to true happiness and security as when I find a way to submit willfully and purposefully to the man HaShem has given me as he leads us into service to HaShem and the people He has set in our lives!!!:thumbsup:
.

[K'romah]

First of all, are you asserting that G-d is saying it is better for women to experience increased pain in childbirth, just like it's supposedly better for women to be ruled by men? If that's the case, then do women sin when they use an epidural or prayer or whatever to avoid that extra pain?Jill, Jill :-) Of course G-d isn't saying it's "better" -- it's a curse! It's a consequence of "our" disobedience...because we were "in" Chavah when she sinned. People who are filled with the Ruach can sometimes experience a "foretaste of glory divine"...a taste of what all our inheritance will be in the "restoration of all things"...a time for which all of creation is longing--Romans 8:17-25--because all of it is suffering under those consequences...but we can have a taste of freedom from the curse, in work relationships with other believers that are free from backbiting and tension, in marriages where both husband and wife "submit to one another in fear of the Messiah" (Ephesians 5:21, CJB) and are free from the power struggles that can characterize such relationships, in a labor and delivery that are joyful, not excruciating...but I wouldn't say that a woman who has a difficult, painful birthing experience is not spirit-filled, any more than I think we are to blame if we have a cold. I mean, here we are, here in a creation that has been subjected to futility and decay because of humankind's rebellion. Yeshu'a came to break the curse, but even after the atonement & resurrection of Messiah, Sha'ul was telling wives to "submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord" (Eph 5:22). Also 5:24, & 1Pe 3:1 - we can't get away from it, and it's why we cover -- to show our 1) marital status and 2) submission to the husband's headship and finally 3) as evidence for the angels -- maybe as an example for those who had rejected G-d's headship and refused to submit to Him, so they can witness this submissive act.
I was referring to ..the fact that [Adam] was not deceived, and yet he still took the fruit. That makes him more prone to willful disobedience. But that doesn't mean that he earned the right to lead anyone by willfully disobeying rather than unintentionally disobeying. Bingo. He didn't earn that "right" at all -- it's not his right, it's a condition that HaShem sovereignly placed upon man and woman until the restoration of all things, including the restoration of a perfect "helpmeet" relationship

In fact, I think it's a heavy and perhaps unbearable burden that G-d placed on man Heavy, yes. His yoke is easy and His burden's light, however: a man in right relationship w/ Adonai feels the responsibility/accountability keenly, and it drives him to his knees seeking guidance & strength.


when He said that women would desire men, because that makes women look to men to meet their needs, rather than women going to G-d to have their needs met like they were intended to do.
Consider, again, that this phrase in Gen 3:16 "thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee" in King Jimmy or "Your desire will be toward your husband, but he will rule over you" in CJB is not referring to looking to men to meet their needs, desiring their husbands romantically or sexually, but means "you will hanker to rule over your husband but he will get the better of you." Notice Stern's significant use of the word: "but" he will rule over you. An almost identical construction occurs a chapter later when YHVH is rebuking Cain for being angry and having a fallen countenance and says (Gen 4:7 NKJ)
"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (in the King Jimmy, "thou shall rule over it", the same construction as "he shall rule over thee" in the Curse) The CJB is: "If you are doing what is good, shouldn't you hold your head high? And if you don't do what is good, sin is crouching at the door - it wants you, but you can rule over it."
Clearly, sin is not longing for Cain as a woman longs sexually or romantically for her husband...but the same Hebrew word -- Strong's 8669, t'shwqah (or tav-shin-vav-kuph-het) which comes from a word meaning "to stretch out after" -- is used in both Gen 3:16 & Gen 4:7, translated "desire" or "wants"...what is it that sin desires? It wants to master Cain, it wants to have its way with him, it's reaching for him, it wants to rule over him, BUT (Adonai is telling Cain) he can rule over it, he can master it. (of course, he succumbs to it instead & kills his brother, and so it goes.) Do you see how this illuminates Adonai's pronouncement to Chavah? He's saying "You will want to have your way, you will yearn to rule over your husband, but he will rule over you" (instead). HaShem meets my needs through my husband. As a married woman, if I go directly to G-d and bypass my husband, I'm bypassing the order that He has ordained. I look to HaShem, but I trust Him to use whom He has put in authority in my life.

My dh has been following this conversation, and he adds that your focus should be on seeking G-d's truth. DH says: "In the Garden, Chava and Adom were told not to eat of a certain tree, the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil or they would certainly die. But the underlying issue is that the knowledge of "good" and "evil" clouds the issue of what is "true" and "not true," which is what G-d's word is about from cover to cover. Besides the issue of direct disobedience, that's what The Fall was really about. G-d knew that taking in the idea of "good" and "evil" would obscure what He was trying to teach man about what is True and what is not True."

Jill, I hope you don't feel like Henayni & I are ganging up on you, now that she's blown my cover and revealed that we know each other. As a woman who was also a "libber" and has been blessed repeatedly when the sweet L-rd has given me the *grace* to "submit" to my husband, I want to encourage you as an "older woman" encouraging Titus-fashion a younger one. ((hug))

Love you in Messiah -- :-)
K'romah
Here is what ADONAI says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask about the ancient paths, 'Which one is the good way?' Take it and you will find rest for your souls." (Jer. 6:16, CJB)

[By Grace]

I admit that it's hard to not feel ganged up on, but it's good for me. Though I tend to be too sensitive, I came here to have my beliefs challenged so that I could learn more and grow. Recently, I've been going through a major spiritual growth spurt, so I'm glad to have people who are willing to teach me from the love in their hearts, even if I don't always agree with them.

No, I am saying though that this is what HaShem said was going to be the way. If we still earn our food through struggle and childbirth is still painful, then the mandate that man be the head still stands.

What I'm saying, though, is that the results of sin that He placed on both man and woman don't have to still stand, that G-d provided the Way out by the blood shed by His Son, that the punishment He gave us was not His original plan, and so His goal all along has been to restore that original plan rather than force us to suffer from the consequences of our actions forever and ever.

So, are YOU saying that HaShem was wrong in placing an “unbearable burden” on the men?

“Like they were intended to”? Intended by whom?? IF HaShem set it up that man should be the head of woman, and even strongly reaffirmed this again AFTER Yeshua’s sacrifice how can we question and challenge it as not what HaShem intended?

I'm not saying He was wrong, but I'm saying that it's not what He wanted, had we never sinned. And I think G-d intended for woman, just like Adam and Chavah in the Garden, to have a direct relationship with G-d, as well as her relationship with her husband. I believe He intended to be woman's direct authority as well, and that husband and wife would share equally in their rulership over the earth. But that wasn't the way it happened because of our selfish desires. I guess, since it's all conjecture anyway, we can't really know what G-d's true intent was. But I look at women throughout Scripture who did the work of G-d, with or without male "covering", and I see women around me who are doing amazing works for G-d, and I feel G-d's tug on my own heart to teach, and I have a hard time just accepting that all I can do is follow my husband.

Jill, Jill :-) Of course G-d isn't saying it's "better" -- it's a curse! It's a consequence of "our" disobedience...because we were "in" Chavah when she sinned.
That's exactly what I'm saying! That it's a curse! And that Y'shua became cursed for us, so that we no longer have to suffer the consequences of that curse.

"The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the Torah by becoming cursed on our behalf." (Gal 3:13)

"He gave himself up on our behalf in order to free us from all violation of Torah and purify for himself a people who would be his own, eager to do good." (Titus 2:14)

""He did it so that by his grace we might come to be considered righteous by God and become heirs, with the certain hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:7)

I'm saying that it's not just the curse of eternal death that He freed us from, but the entire curse that was placed on us at the Garden.

People who are filled with the Ruach can sometimes experience a "foretaste of glory divine"...a taste of what all our inheritance will be in the "restoration of all things"...a time for which all of creation is longing--Romans 8:17-25--because all of it is suffering under those consequences...but we can have a taste of freedom from the curse, in work relationships with other believers that are free from backbiting and tension, in marriages where both husband and wife "submit to one another in fear of the Messiah" (Ephesians 5:21, CJB) and are free from the power struggles that can characterize such relationships, in a labor and delivery that are joyful, not excruciating...

So isn't this what we should strive for?

but I wouldn't say that a woman who has a difficult, painful birthing experience is not spirit-filled, any more than I think we are to blame if we have a cold.

I'm not saying that, either, anymore than I would say that someone who obeys Torah is more saved than someone who doesn't. We're all roadkill when it comes to what we can do for ourselves.

"Eph 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God"

If I've been given some faith in one area that someone else hasn't gotten, I should always remember that it's by grace, not my own spirituality. And vice versa.

I mean, here we are, here in a creation that has been subjected to futility and decay because of humankind's rebellion. Yeshu'a came to break the curse, but even after the atonement & resurrection of Messiah, Sha'ul was telling wives to "submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord" (Eph 5:22). Also 5:24, & 1Pe 3:1 -

But we're also all told, in the same passage, to submit to each other. Men are told to respect their wives (1 Pet 3:7), as women are told to respect their husbands (Eph 5:33). Slaves are told to obey their masters (Eph 6:5) and to "work willingly" as slaves (Eph 6:7), but then masters are told to treat their slaves the same way (Eph 6:9). The barriers have been broken down. There is now no difference before G-d between male and female or master and slave (Gal 3:28), when it comes to G-d's service. We are all to be as servants and to willingly submit to one another.

we can't get away from it, and it's why we cover -- to show our 1) marital status and 2) submission to the husband's headship and finally 3) as evidence for the angels -- maybe as an example for those who had rejected G-d's headship and refused to submit to Him, so they can witness this submissive act.

This is what I was saying earlier, that if my husband doesn't want me to cover (he said just last night that he thinks it's "stupid"), then it defeats the purpose for me to cover.

Bingo. He didn't earn that "right" at all -- it's not his right, it's a condition that HaShem sovereignly placed upon man and woman until the restoration of all things, including the restoration of a perfect "helpmeet" relationship
Again, the word used here for "helpmeet" is the same word used in later passages to describe G-d. I'm not saying, though, that women should try to rule over men any more than I think men should rule over women, when we are living in the redeemed state of being covered by Y'shua's blood. And I think that's what much of the women's lib movement has been about as it's taken such a secular and destructive turn in the past decades. They're overreacting to the oppression of women through the ages.

Okay, both girls are awake now, so I've really got to get back to baby talk and diapers. Hopefully I'll be back online this afternoon!

[Henaynei]

This is what I was saying earlier, that if my husband doesn't want me to cover (he said just last night that he thinks it's "stupid"), then it defeats the purpose for me to cover. I totally agree, and I think that most, or all, of the other women here would also. If your husband wants you to not do something, as long as that something does not violate His commands, then you should certainly obey and honor yur husband!! Yes'em!! ;)

[living2przHim]

Shalom, This will be my first post/reply here, so I am hopeing I do it correctly. I would say that others consider or would call me Messianic. I do have a little bit of a problem with such titles though since they can be so broad. Anyway, I do cover whenever I go to synagog. I cover when praying, I cover during blessings, candle lighting, any kind of study. (At the home fellowship study we have/ ladies only) but I do not always wear a covering at work. Now, just to throw the other side in. My husband always wears a kippah, but he feels I am covered by my hair and him.

[living2przHim]

Shalom, Me again, Please tell me why there are symbols on the top right of my post that I did not put there!?

[Henaynei]

Welcome living2przHim!!!

Shalom, Me again, Please tell me why there are symbols on the top right of my post that I did not put there!?
Those symbols are on everyones posts - they are part of the CF environment. Click on the Orange words below for a link to more information :)

http://www.christianforums.com/images/buttons/bless.gif - this is a button that allows others to give you "blessings"
What are blessings? (http://www.christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=vb_user_maintain#faq_blessings), Blessings (http://www.christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=cf#faq_cf_blessings), Bless Others with Blessings or Items (http://www.christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=cf#faq_cf_bless)

http://www.christianforums.com/images/buttons/comment.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/usernote.php?do=viewuser&u=81977) This is the link to your guestbook
http://www.christianforums.com/images/buttons/reputation.gif This is a button that allows others to give you "rep points" for your post
http://www.christianforums.com/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif This is where the analog of your rep sount is shown - What is reputation? (http://www.christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=vb_user_maintain#faq_reputation)

Blessings: 3 - you gain one Blessing for each post, more when you financially support CF (http://www.christianforums.com/donate)
Reputation: 10 this is your actual Rep count
Posts: 3 this is a running total of your posts

You can find all this and MUCH more in the CF FAQ (http://www.christianforums.com/faq.php), or you can click on the FAQ link on the top navagational bar on each page - you can find it in the second row - almost all the way to the right ;)

Again -- Welcome!!:wave:

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Henaynei]

Shalom, This will be my first post/reply here, so I am hopeing I do it correctly. I would say that others consider or would call me Messianic. I do have a little bit of a problem with such titles though since they can be so broad. Anyway, I do cover whenever I go to synagog. I cover when praying, I cover during blessings, candle lighting, any kind of study. (At the home fellowship study we have/ ladies only) but I do not always wear a covering at work. Now, just to throw the other side in. My husband always wears a kippah, but he feels I am covered by my hair and him. LOL - well put your vote in the poll!! You can choose more than one option!!

[CelineDion]

Shalom to all. I do not cover my hair, because I believe that The Most High is my covering: Psalms 91:4 ~He shall COVER thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Also, because of this scripture: 1st Cor. 11:15 ~ But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a COVERING. I don't have long hair, but Jesus covering me is alot better then my hair.:prayer:


I totally agree ... And i am a messianic gentile who does everything else but that and the whole clothing deal .

[Lovingheart_Blessing]

Hey all I need some help:
I have been really frustrated over the head covering thing. Maybe someone has some ideas?
I have felt lead to cover my head/*all of my hair* when we do our Sabbath service at home. I have done this consecutively since I first felt I should, but it has proven a bit disasterous. I overheat terribly. Covering my head has made me need to pour ice cold water over my head ever less than half hour just to keep from getting very sick (Not just complaining, this is very real). I have tried using a regular cloth headcovering I made, and a see-through veil too when hubby started worrying about me getting so sick, hoping it would help air-flow. I am getting frustrated because I can't stop overheating. It's no fun getting terribly sick when it's supposed to be a time of learning and prayer.
Does anyone have some suggestions that might help?
~Lovingheart_Blessing

[Henaynei]

Hey all I need some help:
I have been really frustrated over the head covering thing. Maybe someone has some ideas?
I have felt lead to cover my head/*all of my hair* when we do our Sabbath service at home. I have done this consecutively since I first felt I should, but it has proven a bit disasterous. I overheat terribly. Covering my head has made me need to pour ice cold water over my head ever less than half hour just to keep from getting very sick (Not just complaining, this is very real). I have tried using a regular cloth headcovering I made, and a see-through veil too when hubby started worrying about me getting so sick, hoping it would help air-flow. I am getting frustrated because I can't stop overheating. It's no fun getting terribly sick when it's supposed to be a time of learning and prayer.
Does anyone have some suggestions that might help?
~Lovingheart_Blessinga little fact gathering .... how long is your hair, how do you wear it usually, how do you wear it when covering, is the place in which you cover air conditioned, under what other circumstances do you over heat, has this always been the case?

[Sephania]

Do you pull your hair up in a barrette first so that it is off your neck?

Did you fear this would happen before you started covering?

[Lovingheart_Blessing]

My hair is long enough to reach my legs, actually. I wear it a variety of ways around the house normally, but doing the veil is new. I have tried it different ways with the veil- where it's all down under the veil, or I put it in a pony tail, and sometimes I put it into a bun underneath. The place where I cover has limited air conditioning. I also have always had a problem with controling my body temperature and I freeze and fry where most would not. I live in Kentucky so it's hot durring the summer and cold but not entirely fridged durring the winter.

I feel that these things are just more of a challange because I don't want to give up. Covering durring our services at home is something Abba has lead me to, and I have done with a happy heart, without reservation. So this isn't something I am doing for someone else and wanting to get out of,... but trying to solve and hoping someone may have stumbled over something that can help me.

I also (my own heart's conviction) cover in floorlength dresses the same time I veil- *Just remembered to mention that*. It's my way of showing respect and love durring the services. When I am not participating in services I dress more in cotton shirts and shorts around the house when it's hot outside.

Maybe it's in the fabrics I am choosing? (I think they are a cotton polyester blend or somthing for the dresses and one of the veils. The other veil is a see through sheer fabric) Or maybe until I get stronger air conditioning when it's hot it just isn't possible for me? I hope not. How do women cover in the hotter places of the world without getting sick? There must be a way,....
Even women 200 years ago wore mounds of clothing and bonnets! (Don't think I want *that* many layers though *gentle laugh*) But,- there has to be a way, I just need help finding it *smile*

*Still pondering with hope*
(and thank you Henaynei and Zayit for responding)
~ Lovingheart_Blessing

[Katydid]

Well, I read that it helps to wet your hair and your covering before putting it on. Other than that I don't know, I don't have that problem.

[Henaynei]

Natural fabrics are a bit of a bother in that they require more care with washing and ironing and all - but they also wick and breather better

Also - my hair is to mu calves and thick - I hand wrap it into a temp bum - put on my snood and thne kinda shake it down into the end of the snood - my snoods are generally just a biot longer than shoulder length

I appreciate that you feel convicted to conpletely cover, I do this as well - but perhaps with your medical condition a compromise is appropiate - you can wear your hair up in a bun - so do that and wear a open weave snood (crocheted - they are avaliable on the web) that is NOT lined - thus you are covering while allowing for maximum ventalition - remember the rabbis have said: "'You shall live by the Torah,' not die by it."

[schwartmrs]

I've had some issues with overheating, too. I think the snood idea is a very good one....get that hair up off the neck!

Part of the problem might also be that you're trying to give your body mixed signals...you're telling it to regulate its temperature for very light clothing most of the time, and when it's in that habit, you throw extra clothes on it....try wearing longer sleeves/heavier fabrics during the course of your regular activities...you might be a little warmer while you're getting used to it, but you shouldn't have such extreme reactions to the covering and long clothing on Shabbat.

Another idea might be to put your hair into a bun and wear a veil type covering that has been wetted down...I use these types, and when they are wet, they are extremely cool...they also allow for really good airflow...if you get warm, just give it a little "flap" and it acts as it's own fan!!

One other thought....if your skirts are pretty full, but made of a light fabric (rayon is nice), you can "flap" those for airflow, too. Pair them up with a shirt that is fairly loose...one that isn't tucked in...and you should be able to discreetly "ventilate" wherever you feel warm.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

Shade

[Sephania]

Loving heart blessing.

I would agree that it is best to

1. Pull up hair into bun or however it will get it off your heck
2. Wash your hair first
3. Be aware of fiber content of covering

I too thought that when I started covering ( and I didn't partial at first but jumped right in with full covering) that I would be extremly hot. My hair is very thick and I never even need a hat in the winter in snow even because it is a natural hat. In the summer it felt like I was wearing a wool cap over my head and I could never get cool. But again HaShem surprised me with his love for my obedience. I found out that it is actually cooler to cover than not. Some other benefits, when you are driving, you can put the window all the way down because you have no hair blowing in your face or tickling your eyes. You can get ready faster and dont' need to fuss with rollers, curling irons, hair spray, etc, saves money too! :)

I love to wash my hair and then put it up immediately and then cover and I can even go out in the sun and feel fine!

I think too that your great variety of covering the rest of your body may not help either. I notice that you wear shorts during the week. I threw out all my shorts but two pairs to wear under skirts and wear loose cotton drawstring pants around the house and skirts and dresses when going out. My arms are covered or if I have a short or no sleeve blouse I then wear a light sweater or cotton jacket to cover the rest.

Why not try covering the rest of the week and see what happens? If you need to get one of those little lunch bag sized gel filled frozen things and make yourself a scarf with a lined pocket to put it in ( only very chilled) and tie that around your neck till you get used to the covering. This will help to cool your blood down.

[MyLittleWonders]

I've been having fun going through old threads and wanted to add to this one. :) I have been covering since October of '04 - almost 6 months. For the most part, I leave my bangs out and cover the rest - typically with a scarf, bandana, snood, or some type of veil. I started covering after studying (a lot) the passage in 1 Corinthians 11; then when we because Torah-observant, it seemed to fit even better. :D I have had a few times where I stop covering for a few days, but then HaShem points me back to where He wants me (and my hair ;) ). I love the scarves at Tznius (if I spelled that correctly). I also just ordered a couple of things from Headcoverings by D'vorah. I'm really excited to get those. And, I also make my own. The other night I ordered a covering from Zipporah's Thimble - it's a lightweight cotton guaze material and is 72" by 18" - basically the size of a tallit. I got the corners reinforced for tzitzit, so I think I'm going to make that one my special prayer covering. Anyways ... my train of thought got interupted by a phone call, so I'm not sure if there was anymore to my post. :doh:

[Imagine_your_dreams]

I have never felt convicted to cover my hair, so I don't

[Sobe]

I cover when I am called to Torah.

[Sephania]

shalom Sobe, you have a Torah in your church?

[Sobe]

I have studied Hebrew, so I was called to Torah in a friend's shul. :wave:

[Velcro]

I had tossed this one around for quite a while, but I do not cover. When I am called to Torah, I cover, but one time, I forgot, because I did not realize I was to be called. I felt terrible, after I realized what I had done.

[Sephania]

I have studied Hebrew, so I was called to Torah in a friend's shul. :wave:

Shalom Sobe, this is interesting, was your friends shul Orthodox? Or Messianic?

:)

[little_lily613]

I chose "considering covering my hair". No, right now, I do not. I am single and Judaism teaches, for modesty, a woman should cover after she is married. I don't know if Messianics share this same view or not. I intend on covering my hair at all times then (except when alone with the hubby and immediate family).

Shalom,
~Little_Lily613~

[Henaynei]

I chose "considering covering my hair". No, right now, I do not. I am single and Judaism teaches, for modesty, a woman should cover after she is married. I don't know if Messianics share this same view or not. I intend on covering my hair at all times then (except when alone with the hubby and immediate family).

Shalom,
~Little_Lily613~as in non-Messianic Judaism, some Messianic women cover completely and all the time, others don't cover at all, and everything in between, as shown in the poll. One difference is that very few Messianic women who do cover consider