Considering Christian Counter-Culture

[Treasure the Questions]

So how should we live as Christians?

Is it OK to be like everyone else as long as we don't drink too much, stay faithful to our spouses and give something to our church and to help the starving every so often, as well as going to church on Sunday and reading our Bibles?

Here are some thoughts from Tom and Christine Sine in their book Living on Purpose: Jesus' call to whole-life discipleship was clear. He didn't invite his disciples to a private pietism they could work in around the edges of lives largely shaped by the dominant culture. "He called the crowd to him along with his discples and said, 'If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? (Mark 8:34-36). The call to follow Christ was an invitation to a whole-life faith that was both profoundly counter-cultural both then and now. Those first disciples never settled for the kind of narrow, disengaged faith that has become normative today. They understood that following Jesus was a whole-life propositon. And those earliest disciples had absolutely no doubt that following this Jesus required them to put a third leg on their discipleship stool and be transformed not only spiritually and morally, but culturally too.
What do you think? Do we need to let Jesus help us develop a culture that is different from that of most of the people around us, or is spirituality and morality all there is to being a Christian?

Karin

[Toney]

How interesting, Karin!

I think you would enjoy reading Arnold Toynbee, if you have not done so. The proverbial Phoenixes that arise from the ashes follow a pattern when transforming cultures. For both Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism, those ashes of transformation were dependent upon the smoking, creative cinders of the Second Temple in Jerusalem.

Toynbee would define Western Civilization in its present, decadent condition as a Universal State. Universal States run out of gas for this reason or that. The last to do so was the Greco-Roman Empire and her Jewish Temple State midwife that birthed us.

From Jerusalem's ashes we emerged in our Judeo-Christian finery. If we can force ourselves to appreciate our common heritage and history as people of God, we may be able to learn from our shared history. To do so, we have to let go of a number of mis-shaped beliefs; burn a few sacred cows, so to speak.

We'll need God's help for that and an appreciation of His timetable.

In the cycles of history theories which Toynbee and Oswald Spengler espouse, a creative minority will emerge from the challenge and response drama. From that small group a new spiritual age and attendant civilization arises.

[zoziw]

What do you think? Do we need to let Jesus help us develop a culture that is different from that of most of the people around us, or is spirituality and morality all there is to being a Christian?That is a really good question.

In North America conservative Christians have developed what they term a "counter-culture" which features christian books, music, art, film, television, even clothing. Some of these things became so profitable (ie. music) that secular companies have purchased and become parent companies to these christian labels and publishers.

These "christian" things have become even more popular and now we are starting to see Christian music, books and movies (ie. VeggieTales) breaking into American pop-culture in a way that I haven't seen before. Go to any mainstream bookstore and you are likely to see the "Left Behind" series and other christian fiction on the shelves. Secular music stores now have larger Christian sections and, of course, you can find VeggieTales stuff in most video stores.

This works nicely because you may have a friend who kind of wonders what Christianity is all about but won't go to church and is somewhat disengaging when you bring up your faith. Many people are offended by Bible tracts and many aren't going to read a book they perceive as trying to "shove religion down their throats", however, the next time they are at a bookstore and they see an entire wall of Left Behind books, they might remember you mentioning what an entertaining read it was and choose that one.

Maybe it plants a seed or breaks down some barriers.

Many people have mentioned to me that these items have helped them to start coming to church, but as I get to know these people and watch them "grow" what I notice is that they aren't that much different from non-religious people in how they go about most of their lives...I wish I could say I was different but...

Now the question becomes: have we developed a culture that is different from those around us or have we merely introduced a Jesus meme into secular consumerism?

I've been in christian stores and have seen the exact same merchandise that I have seen in regular stores but with a Bible verse stamped on it, or a cross or a "Jesus Loves Me". These kind of things make me wonder if we are marketing Jesus to non-believers or are they marketing Jesus to us??

As a citizen of 21st century North America I guess my question is: what does a Christian culture look like and would I be able to live in it?

I guess that didn't answer your question. :)

[seebs]

The downside is that a lot of the "Christian counterculture" is:
1. Theologically very very bad.
2. Offensive.
3. Hostile to people who aren't quite "clean" enough.

This actually drives a lot of people away.

[zoziw]

Initially I was going to put a bad theology paragraph in but it kind of rambled on for a bit. :)

[Toney]

The downside is that a lot of the "Christian counterculture" is:
1. Theologically very very bad.
2. Offensive.
3. Hostile to people who aren't quite "clean" enough.

This actually drives a lot of people away.

Not to mention that is theologically very very bad.

Karin, I think the third leg on your stool analogy is manufactured in Heaven. The Gospel inquires, "When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith on the earth?" (Lk 18:8) Our culture gave up on God along time ago. As the piece you quoted stated, the Jesus people "... never settled for the kind of narrow, disengaged faith that has become normative today." Neither did the ancients.

Disengaged faith is not faith at all. Engaged faith sees God as very involved in human history and with each of us individually. Faith allows us to see meaning in everything.

The good news is that this viewpoint is becoming scientific! The book to read is A New Science of Life by Rupert Sheldrake.

[Treasure the Questions]

The downside is that a lot of the "Christian counterculture" is:
1. Theologically very very bad.
2. Offensive.
3. Hostile to people who aren't quite "clean" enough.

This actually drives a lot of people away.
I totally agree, seebs. I don't think Tom and Christine Sine are talking about Left Behind or Veggie tales or anything like that. Possibly quite the opposite.
I'm not sure I'll have a lot of time to contribute to this this evening, but here's there website, which will hopefully provide a bit more detail http://www.msainfo.org/clop.asp

The thing is to look at the principles they propose. As everyone is an individual they may put them into practise in different ways.

Karin

[Andry]

What do you think? Do we need to let Jesus help us develop a culture that is different from that of most of the people around us, or is spirituality and morality all there is to being a Christian?

Karin


I agree completely. I believe, in a nutshell, it is called bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to earth, just as Jesus told us to pray, "And may your kingdom come, here on earth, just like it is in heaven."

And no, it's not about the "Left Behind" series or "Veggie Tales".

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

It is very fitting that "Left Behind" finds itself in the same thread as "theologically, very, very bad".

One of the downsides of this evangelical Christian sub-culture (and it's not really a counter-culture; it's just Christianised (and often substandard) versions of mainstream culture) is that anyone who can get a Christian publisher to publish their material becomes a popular theologian whose particular twist becomes gospel. "Left Behind", like "This Present Darkness" a decade ago, is doing exactly this, taking a fringe belief (pre-trib rapture IIRC - any form of rapture is fringe as far as I'm concerned) and promoting it to mainstream.

Real Christian counter-culture has to be a forcing in of the values of the Kingdom of God - and I'm not talking about the ones that would have had Jesus finding common ground with the Pharisees. It is our job to challenge the powerful, the oppressor (and that can be the multinational sweatshop employer as much as Robert Mugabe) and those whose deliberations affect the lives of millions.

And more than that it is to challenge ourselves. To what degree have we accepted the world's idea of "success" - nice car, good job, big house? Who would we be willing to trample on to achieve these things? And what would we be willing to sacrifice that we would be better holding on to?

Big questions. Bigger than deciding between a FROG and a WWJD bracelet*, or between a Kevin Prosch or a Matt Redman CD**

*Neither. Celtic torc for me
**Neither. But there are still gaps in my Tull collection.

[Treasure the Questions]

Yeah, Karl, I think that sums up very nicely what Christian Counter-Culture means to me, except I think a few of Matt Redman's songs fit in there, too, such as Heart of Worship.

The Sines maybe take it a bit further, talking about God's Shalom/wholeness of life, putting people and relationships before possessions and accumulating wealth, and about celebrating life. I'll try and find something with a bit more detail from their book, tomorrow.

Karin

[CaDan]

Where's tulc? He's been living at JPUSA since '78. As someone who has actually DONE it, I trust his insights the most.

current music: Kate Bush - Watching You Without Me

[Treasure the Questions]

What's JPUSA?

K

[Toney]

Yeah, Karl, I think that sums up very nicely what Christian Counter-Culture means to me, except I think a few of Matt Redman's songs fit in there, too, such as Heart of Worship.

The Sines maybe take it a bit further, talking about God's Shalom/wholeness of life, putting people and relationships before possessions and accumulating wealth, and about celebrating life. I'll try and find something with a bit more detail from their book, tomorrow.

Karin

Each day I receive a subscribed e-mail from Chabad.org called the Daily Dose. Today's seemed appropriate to this thread, so I quote it:

B"H

Splitting the Sea
-----------------

Along the path to Torah is the splitting of the sea.

Don't imagine you can keep your belief in a materialist's world and append a
higher consciousness to it. The sea of concealment has to part and the world
must be seen for what it truly is: A Godly place ever-awaiting miracles.

B"H is an abbreviation that stands for Baruch HaShem, or with God's help.

[CaDan]

What's JPUSA?

K

Jesus People USA. Essentially a Christian commune in Chicago.

[Treasure the Questions]

I hadn't heard of them. Thanks for explaining.

K

[Toney]

.
I'm not sure I'll have a lot of time to contribute to this this evening, but here's there website, which will hopefully provide a bit more detail http://www.msainfo.org/clop.asp

Karin

K, Thank you for posting this fabulous link. I was surprised to discover that there is an Anglican church associated with Mustard Seed just down the road and a home group that meets only a few minutes from my house. The Sineses have a good deal on their site about Celtic spirituality, which is dear to me.

Thanks for sharing.

[Treasure the Questions]

I'm afraid some of the Jewish language and concepts you put forward seem rather strange to me, Toney, however, Celtic Christianity is something I've recently become interested in.

I enjoy visiting St David's cathedral whenever I get the chance. One day I'd like to go to Iona.

Karin

[Toney]

I'm afraid some of the Jewish language and concepts you put forward seem rather strange to me, Toney, however, Celtic Christianity is something I've recently become interested in.

I enjoy visiting St David's cathedral whenever I get the chance. One day I'd like to go to Iona.

Karin

They're strange to most Christians, yet I persevere because this should not be the case. Understanding that Mark's Gospel is a lectionary for the Jesus Community to use from the Jewish New Year, Rosh Hashanah, to Passover; that Matthew's Gospel expands Mark to encompass the entire Jewish Liturgical Year; that Luke's Gospel switches Mark and Matthew around and introduces a load of new material to demonstrate that Jesus is the fulfillment of Torah; that He is a type of Moses, that the thin section of the Christian Bible is the 'Amen' to but not the replacement of the thick section, allows us to really understand and experience this the Greatest of Stories, to grasp the context of our faith, and to marvel at the Heavenly wonder of it all.

[Im_A]

if someone could please help me understand what they mean by Christian Conter-culture. I just seem a bit fuzzy brained about what that would mean.

i mean Christian counter-culture, does that mean, a culture, counter to the main establishment Church today? or is it meaning something different than that.

i have heard people say, that there is an emerging reformation happening, but not in the same sense as what Martin Luther and the others did. in a way, i agree, even though right now it is hard understanding that. it's like something that i have been reading about from Brian McLaren's books. the transformation from moderinty to post-modernity. i have noticed similiar things about people that are not satisfied with what we have today. Similiar things meaning beliefs about certain issues, more open mindedness to be friend non-believers, and people that are different. People open minded to hearing different sides on issues out in society. People more "liberal" if you will. Christians looking at scripture differently, than let's say over the last period of time since the Reformation happened. maybe not different, but maybe re-adverting back to earlier days.

that seems to me, to be the growing "counter-culture" within Christianity. for example, the denomination that the pastor of the ministry i attend to support the fact that he is opening up a tattoo parlor in the city with one of the well known tattoo artist in the town, and when it is opened around October of this year, to have Bible studies on Tuesday nights, and that is what the pastor and the tattooist want, i am not sure of what his faith is. now i mean it is awesome that God is working in this way, but for the main church denomination to support this, baffles me. it wasn't even the pastor that said this, someone within the group of the pastor's conference said it, and i guess it sounded like a rock show cheering from what the pastor told me.

now i only use that as an example of what i mean, and i know there are many more examples out there. so i'm in favor of what i see going on in the hearts of our family of believers. but what i fear with this, for lack of better terms, upcoming counter-culture/upcoming second reformation, is alienation. for example, Martin Luther alienated himself from the Catholic Church. i mean there is nothing with acting on your conscience, i wish more would do that to be honest, but to completely alienate where you came from, seems rather narrow visioned, and very elitist minded. with the issue, at times it seems better to stay within the institution and reform it from the inside. so i am worried that a counter-culture within Christianity will alienate itself from other Christians. it is bad enough to alienate ourselves from the ones that need the gospel, let alone alienated ourselves from our spiritual family, because of techinical difficulties. i myself deal with this issue, but i am working on that slowly but surely. we as Christians need all the support and strengthening from one another that we can get.

look at the tribes of israel in the Old Testament. true community within the faith. now i know there were issues, just like today, but it seems after Christ's death, we may have ran away from that. now i am not saying that as my entire belief goes into it, but it is curiosity point, and i am open to be educated more about that point.

i just hope that if there is a counter culture coming up, or if there needs to be one, that we don't alienate ourselves away. i also pray that we don't do the same things that we complain that today's church does, but just do with a different apparel.

[Treasure the Questions]

A culture that is counter to the prevailing culture and centred on Christ-like values. Have a look at the website.

Karin

[sakamuyo]

I wonder if the desire should be to become counter-culture or if the primary desire to be transformation by God, with an understanding that in allowing ourselves to be fully transformed, we will likely live in ways that are counter to the world around us. In other words, I don't seek to be different from the people around me, I seek to be more like Christ. In doing so, I end up being different than the culture around me.

This has some implications for "seeker services" and ministries that attempt to recreate popular culture. Maybe instead of trying to be something, we need to just be who we are - children of God. We might not look appealing to every person walking down the street, but we'd probably look a whole lot more appealing to those who are hurting and in need of healing.

[Toney]

Postmodernism is difficult (for me, at least) to define. Obviously, something's happening here (Buffalo Springfield).

With regard to postmodern spirituality, it seems the metanarratives (Gr meta = after) are breaking down all around us and 'battle lines are being drawn.' (Metanarratives protect the "cultural order" from marginal, subversive narratives). The Roman Catholic Church represents the archetypical, institutionalized Christian metanarrative. Christian fundamentalism is its unsightly wart. Essential to this particular metanarrative are 1) the Bible as literal, historical fact and as objective truth; 2) Biblical inerrancy.

My belief is that the new Christian counter-culture will 1) restore the original Christian message, i.e. articulate a really threatening, non-orthodox narrative; 2) make Christ-like acts of loving kindness supreme to either the Bible or correct 'orthodox' beliefs.

'Everybody look what's going down.'

[Reader Nilus]

It seems to me that to be a Christian is to be at odds with the culture around you, as Our Lord was pushed out of the world so well we. The monastic movement was an outright rejection of the union of church and culture. The first monks knew something was not right.
Jeff the Finn

[Mustaphile]

The good news is that this viewpoint is becoming scientific! The book to read is A New Science of Life by Rupert Sheldrake.



OFF TOPIC WARNING

I like Sheldrake, even though I have no idea of the scientific veracity of his ideas, they certainly hold a special appeal for me. I assume we are talking about morphic resonance and such stuff?

[Toney]

OFF TOPIC WARNING

I like Sheldrake, even though I have no idea of the scientific veracity of his ideas, they certainly hold a special appeal for me. I assume we are talking about morphic resonance and such stuff?

Yep. His book with Matthew Fox on the Physics of Angels is also worth reading. Don't worry too much about being off topic. Our entire forum is pretty much off topic.

[GreenPartyVoter]

Amen, Karl! :)

[Treasure the Questions]

The good news is that this viewpoint is becoming scientific! The book to read is A New Science of Life by Rupert Sheldrake.
OFF TOPIC WARNING

I like Sheldrake, even though I have no idea of the scientific veracity of his ideas, they certainly hold a special appeal for me. I assume we are talking about morphic resonance and such stuff?
Mustaphile, who were you quoting?

[Toney]

Karin,

I recommended Sheldrake in another thread. I don't recall which one, however.

[Mustaphile]

Karin,

I recommended Sheldrake in another thread. I don't recall which one, however.

It's in this thread on page one. :D

[Toney]

It's in this thread on page one. :D

So it is. I should have known that. So much for the theory of morphic resonance, eh? :cool:

[Treasure the Questions]

Ah! thanks. It's so much easier skimming posts when you know whose posts to skim - it cuts down the number of words dramatically. :)

K

[Toney]

Ah! thanks. It's so much easier skimming posts when you know whose posts to skim - it cuts down the number of words dramatically. :)

K

Excellent point. I have reduced the words in the Whosoever OP by over 60%!!!