How do you see worship?

[Maccie]

I didn't go to church this morning. Not because I don't want to worship God, but I couldn't cope any longer with an evangelical "worship" format!

The church I belong to is a purpose-built, fairly new church, plain inside and out. As you sit in the seats, there is a stage in front of you (with a baptism pool underneath), and on the left a pulpit/desk/whatever you call it. On the stage is a small plain table, and usually, a small vase of flowers. The wall behind the stage has a window high up, and is made of brick. Nice brick, but plain brick. There is nothing to feast your eyes on, not even a banner!

So all through the service we are focussing on the speaker (or, if we are singing, the screen to the extreme left of the stage where the power point presentations are displayed). This seems to be "sola scriptorum" taken to extremes! I long to look at beautiful things. After all, God is in everything good, and that includes beauty. Even the music is just plain singing, although we have two excellent musicians, they never play anything on their own. And the words of the modern "choruses" (as they are called there) can be banal in the extreme. Though we do sing older hymns, but of a very evangelical type - i.e. penal substitution atonement - "God's wrath is satisfied" and all that.

So how do you do worship? How should we "do" worship? Is there not some way we, as individuals, can worship in a congregation, with all of our senses? If someone does suggest silence "for a few moments" it only lasts about 30 seconds! They seem afraid of it.

I stayed by myself this morning, read, played some Taize music, until I was rudely interrupted.

Maccie

[elanor]

The church I previously attended met in a tent, had a killer band with worship leaders (no choir), and sang mostly the latest, greatest worship choruses. Now I'm in a church that is more formal, has a stained glass window behind the stage, a choir, and sings hymns and some (older) choruses--though I'm working to get newer ones incorporated. But those are just the trappings. Worship for me is about experiencing the wonder of being in God's presence, knowing Him, expressing the joy of who He is and what it is to be loved by Him, and offering back to Him my love, gratitude, service. For me, worship is not dependent on the setting--it's a state of my heart. I find the external trappings very distracting, and for that reason I rarely ever worship with my eyes open. It's the presence of God's Spirit that makes the act of worship become the experience of true worship.

It makes perfect sense what Maccie says, that worship should involve all our senses, and I appreciate that some churches work to make the experience beautiful to behold and listen to. But for me, simpler is better. Give me quieter music or simple acapella singing and let me close my eyes and sing with my brothers and sisters about the wonders of our God. When I worship at home, I often turn out the light in the room because I don't want any distratction.

Take everything else away and let me have only the presence of God (and sometimes my brothers and sisters) and that for me is the perfect condition for worship.

[Christi]

I think many churches try to make the atmosphere conducive for worship and for some music is very helpful there. We are to worship in "spirit and in truth". For me that's usually outdoors and alone.

[seebs]

We have a largish square room, with windows on all the outside walls; it's sort of nice watching the trees change with the seasons.

[Maccie]

Maybe I'm just in a bad place at the moment. I can never manage to be alone, well, hardly ever, and our services tend to be a "hymn sandwich"!

Maccie

[nyj]

How do I see worship?

Matthew 25:40

Ummm. :scratch:

Ok, NYJ, what do you mean by that? What I mean is, is that we have an obligation, as Christians, to take care of one another. At the very core of Christianity sits the community. It's not about my relationship with God. Rather, it's about my relationship with you, which in turn establishes my relationship with God. This is exemplified by the Trinitarian nature of God. Three persons, one nature. Community par excellence.

Take a look at the "Our Father". Jesus didn't say "My Father, Who art in Heaven." He said "Our Father, Who art in Heaven". Our, not yours, not mine, but ours.

Matthew 18:20 - That's worship to me.

[Photini]

So how do you do worship? How should we "do" worship? Is there not some way we, as individuals, can worship in a congregation, with all of our senses?
I belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church...our worship services involve all our senses. We chant rather than sing so services are peaceful, and we also use incense. Our churches are full of Icons and other beautiful things which represent the glory of God. If I were perfect I wouldn't need all these sorts of things...but I'm not. I need all the aid I can get to pull my attention toward heavenly things.

[Treasure the Questions]

I think the different styles of worship reflect different personalities to a certain extent. I don't like anything that smacks of pretence and showiness and so fancy robes would detract from worship for me, as would incense, probably because I'm pretty sensitive to smells and I find incense rather overpowering and liable to make me choke.

I like things fairly simple, but I like to be able to look at a cross and banners can sometimes add to worship.

The hymns and songs are probably the most important, but sometimes I'm in the mood for something reflective and sometimes I like a rousing chorus. I also like a sermon that helps me take stock of where I am, gives me encouragement to keep going, but also challenges me to "do better". Worship is about telling God he's "worth it", to coin a phrase on an advert for beauty products. We can do that in singing his praises, but also in many other ways...in everything we do, in fact.

Next Sunday I expect to enjoy the "ultimate worship experience" taking communion with thousands of people who tend to be liberal Christians. It's an annual pilgrimage for some. The sense of belonging together is something I've never felt anywhere else. In fact, it isn't just the Communion Service, the whole weekend, walking around in crowds of people who you feel some sort of affinity with is such an amazing experience. They call it Greenbelt http://www.greenbelt.org.uk/homepage.php

[Im_A]

I think the different styles of worship reflect different personalities to a certain extent. I don't like anything that smacks of pretence and showiness and so fancy robes would detract from worship for me, as would incense, probably because I'm pretty sensitive to smells and I find incense rather overpowering and liable to make me choke.

I like things fairly simple, but I like to be able to look at a cross and banners can sometimes add to worship.

The hymns and songs are probably the most important, but sometimes I'm in the mood for something reflective and sometimes I like a rousing chorus. I also like a sermon that helps me take stock of where I am, gives me encouragement to keep going, but also challenges me to "do better". Worship is about telling God he's "worth it", to coin a phrase on an advert for beauty products. We can do that in singing his praises, but also in many other ways...in everything we do, in fact.

Next Sunday I expect to enjoy the "ultimate worship experience" taking communion with thousands of people who tend to be liberal Christians. It's an annual pilgrimage for some. The sense of belonging together is something I've never felt anywhere else. In fact, it isn't just the Communion Service, the whole weekend, walking around in crowds of people who you feel some sort of affinity with is such an amazing experience. They call it Greenbelt http://www.greenbelt.org.uk/homepage.php
i tend to agree there. we have all the different forms of worship right along with all the forms of denominations. with different personalities, comes different needs to be met to worship the same God we all serve. I think that shows the beauty of God creating us individually.

i used to be into the whole, contemporary, pentecostal worship style. band plays, people are jumping up and down, waving their arms, yelling or screaming. everything is so emotional, and at times i wonder if feeling God in a scenario like that, is just because you witness everyone else "feeling" it. not meaning to say that their worship is fake, but i would think that if we're all in the same room, then it is easier to feel what they are feeling, or feel nothing at all

i don't know right now how i feel anymore. there are a part of me that, what i came from, and used to will always exist, but anymore, i don't know if it is fulfilling my needs and wants to worship God. i have always been fascinated with the magnificant art in the older churches, (orthodox/catholic), the incense, the chants. i don't understeand the bishop stuff, but my lack of understanding is something i dont' want to get in the way of worshiping God. so i don't know where i am at currently. i like things about all kinds of worship. i listen to music that people think is crazy and i truly believe it worships God. then i am drawn to the hymns. to the chants, the silent style of worshiping God at church. i remember an elderly woman standing next to me at a non-denominational church, and the whole church was doing the "norm" of things. jumping around, yelling, i am pretty numb to the way of worship with those type of churches. but this elderly lady i was standing next to, just stood still and silent and eyes closed, and her hand lefted only half high in the air. i thought that was awesome. then come in the end, she was the only one out of the service, besides another guy, that really talked to me, hence that was my first day, and i was wearing my Bob Marley shirt, and i just got done working all night, so i was tired and stinking, but i wanted to check this church out. but watching that elderly woman worship was inspiring to me.

So i think i am the middle of the road kind of guy. i like hearing guitars and drums playing, but i also like hymns, and the mystery behind the beautiful artwork, the chants, and the incense is really beautiful to me. so i guess i am the middle of the road person for worship.

[Treasure the Questions]

Hope this isn't off topic, but as I said, Greenbelt is an important worship experience for me, although the teaching is important, too.

I've just discovered it may be based on an American festival called Cornerstone www.cornerstonefestival.com/ (http://www.cornerstonefestival.com/). I've tried to look at the website but the server went down. I'm wondering if anyone here has heard of the Cornerstone Festival. Greenbelt started as a fairly evangelical festival with an emphasis on the arts, but these days it is more progressive, so I'd be interested to hear what Cornerstone is like.

Karin

[CaDan]

Hope this isn't off topic, but as I said, Greenbelt is an important worship experience for me, although the teaching is important, too.

I've just discovered it may be based on an American festival called Cornerstone www.cornerstonefestival.com/ (http://www.cornerstonefestival.com/). I've tried to look at the website but the server went down. I'm wondering if anyone here has heard of the Cornerstone Festival. Greenbelt started as a fairly evangelical festival with an emphasis on the arts, but these days it is more progressive, so I'd be interested to hear what Cornerstone is like.

Karin

Cornerstone is run by JPUSA. It is a heck of a lot of fun.

One year Terry Taylor (Daniel Amos, Swirling Eddies, Lost Dogs) got a gig to cover Cornerstone for the 700 Club--for those not in the US, that is a television show for the televengelist Pat Robertson. He insisted on carrying a cardboard (http://www.danielamos.com/video/terryandpat4.jpg) cut out (http://www.danielamos.com/video/terryandpat3.jpg)of Pat Robertson (http://www.danielamos.com/video/terryandpat2.jpg) around for the entire time. Pat looked like he had a good time. (http://www.danielamos.com/video/terryandpat.jpg) For some reason, 700 Club didn't want to run the footage...

Hey seebs! He looks a little like you--no not the flat one!

current music: The Ramones - Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment

(on edit) Lou Reed - Street Hassle

[Treasure the Questions]

Thanks for that info, CaDan. Looking at their faith statement they seem pretty fundamendalist by British standards. Would someone like Tony Campolo be welcome to speak at Cornerstone Festivals? He certainly would at Greenbelt. We've got the Archbishop of Cantebury, Rowan Williams, and also Jeffrey John coming to speak this year. Not all the bands at Greenbelt are Christian, either.

Karin

[CaDan]

Duh . . .

/me knocks himself upside the head

Since Cornerstone is run by JPUSA, you can look at their website (www.JPUSA.org). You can talk to tulc, too. He's a member.

current music: Elvis Costello - Allison

[Treasure the Questions]

Duh . . .

* CaDan knocks himself upside the head


Since Cornerstone is run by JPUSA, you can look at their website (http://www.jpusa.org/). You can talk to tulc, too. He's a member.

:scratch:
I found their statement of faith on their website, which is why I asked.

Btw Jeffrey John is probably a bit like Gene Robinson.

K

[CaDan]

I go to church in a gym ( http://www.stjoan.com/sunmsfr.htm). We haven't been able to fit Sunday services in the sanctuary for about 20 years. I occasionally go to Saturday mass (http://www.stjoan.com/satms/satessent.html) in the main sanctuary. Classic Post-Vatican II!

current music: The Police - Hole In My Life

[sakamuyo]

I see worship in a few ways.

On one hand, worship is a lifestyle I choose to live. It's not something I do for an hour on Sunday morning, but the way I live each day. Sunday morning, then, is not an exclusive opportunity for worship, but an opportunity to come together with others for the purpose of sharing in our worship.

This helps me to remember the focus of worship. It's God, not me. The purpose of worship is not to feel good or get my emotions going, but to give thanks and glory to God. The location, setting, and environment need not be a factor.

That being said, I would think God enjoys our worship more when we worship in full joy. Creating an atmosphere where we can enter fully into worship can be a good thing, not because we need to be "filled" during worship, but because it allows us to express our worship fully.

We all have different preferences when it comes to visual or musical style, length of service, type and format of sermon, etc. That's a good thing. It's great that we have different churches where people gather to worship God in a variety of ways. Apparently, many people like those banal choruses and symbol-free environments. For them, the simplicity allows them to move the focus off the vehicle of worship and onto God. As long as they're worshiping God, good for them!

Personally, I prefer a symbol-rich environment, where all the senses are included and I can get lost in the richness of the environment. I like more challenging music, though overly "wordy" songs can be an obstacle for me. Because of this, I'm in a church that generally shares in these preferences, allowing us to come together and raise a communal voice to God.

[Celestron]

Tired of all the praise and worship, that i assume that got big in the late 80's forward....

it's too loud, too instrumental, and too redundant!

we need some pink floyd style music to worship God to!

[Treasure the Questions]

On one hand, worship is a lifestyle I choose to live. It's not something I do for an hour on Sunday morning, but the way I live each day. :thumbsup:

[Hairtrigger]

Hi, I'm a newbie. Talk to me.

[Hairtrigger]

What is worship? It's making sweet intimate time with the Lord. In private is best for me. Not on display. no programed, choreographed scheduled time. Just free to be a worshipper.

[mshupe1959]

I don't mean to make anyone mad, but why do we need something nice to look at to worship God? Worshipping God should be in our hearts and not matter where we are and not by what we are surrounded by. Somewhere, someone right now is celebrating and worshiping God in a dung hut. Somewhere else, in secret for fear that they will be caught and martyred.
"Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I AM." We should be concentrating on Him instead of our surroundings. If we insist on noticing them, thank God for them, even if they are simple surroundings.

[sakamuyo]

I don't mean to make anyone mad, but why do we need something nice to look at to worship God? Worshipping God should be in our hearts and not matter where we are and not by what we are surrounded by. Somewhere, someone right now is celebrating and worshiping God in a dung hut. Somewhere else, in secret for fear that they will be caught and martyred. We don't. That doesn't mean it can't help.
"Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I AM." We should be concentrating on Him instead of our surroundings. If we insist on noticing them, thank God for them, even if they are simple surroundings. While I do agree that our focus should be on God, I'll point out two things:

1) You've quoted that piece of scripture out of context. That verse was written in the context of church discipline procedures. Read the whole chapter. :)

2) Aren't we worshipping God with our whole selves, not just our mouths? Isn't creation of the worship space an act of worship, as well?

If you prefer to worship God is a space with minimal visual environment, please do so! There's no need to knock those who worship God in other environments, though. We don't need pianos, organs, guitars, hymnals, or songbooks, either. We don't need buildings or paid pastors. We don't need pews or altars. We don't need sunday school or coffee hour. You are absolutely correct that all that's required for worship is a relationship with God and a desire to worship him!

None of that makes any of the above wrong to have, though.

[mshupe1959]

1) You've quoted that piece of scripture out of context. That verse was written in the context of church discipline procedures. Read the whole chapter. :)


None of that makes any of the above wrong to have, though.
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Out of context, maybe debatable. Any less true, no.

I don't mean to say that it is wrong, as long as the our focus is on God and not "stuff". Sorry if I misrepresented myself. :wave:

[Treasure the Questions]

mshupe1959, I agree that worship should be part of our everyday lives and something that is reflected in how we live - Brother Lawrence saw washing up as worship: anything we do for God and/or others can be worship with the right attitude.

However, what is commonly considered to be worship, that time we spend singing hymns and praising God, can help us readjust our focus, if it was starting to drift, and that can happen so easily. Although, not all hymn singing and praising God does that. Some modern "worship songs" are too centred on ourselves to help us focus on God, and others are just shallow and banal, but the good ones help a lot of people improve their Christian vision, as do good sermons and times of good fellowship with other Christians who love the Lord. :cool:

Karin

[Treasure the Questions]

I've just bought a great Wild Goose CD http://ionabooks.com/moreinfo.asp?ID=44 at Greenbelt, which means washing up can truly be worship in all senses of the word for me.

I've been meaning to buy something by them for ages, but wasn't sure what I'd like. This year the tent with their CDs wasn't crowded when I went in and there was a very helpful girl who gave me a rough idea of the themes. Now I can't wait to buy another one. I think it might be one a month if the budget allows.:)

Karin

[Reader Nilus]

"We did not know whether we were in heaven or earth for upon earth there is no such sight or beauty; we only know that there. God is present among men." Russian Ambassadors in Constantinople before the conversion of Russia.


At the Divine Liturgy for Orthodox we are in the 8th Day, in fact as the Cherubic Hymn in the Liturgy says, we are in fact partaking of the heavenly choir.Let us who mystically represent the cherubim and sing the Thrice-holy Hymn to the life- creating Trinity, now lay aside all earthly cares.



Beauty is good, and Orthodox Temples are beautiful. The walls are covered with Ikons, of those glorified saints that are also present with us as we feast in the Kingdom of God at the Eucharist. The incense and candle light all add to the feeling that we can and indeed need to lay aside all earthly cares, as this is the ultimately real of all realities. For me worship is the very reason for our existence, and the Worship is directed totally to the Most Holy Trinity as the response of us sinners to the Love and Mercy that has been shown and given us. The place of Worship in Orthodoxy is sacred, the Temples are blessed and the service that goes on in them is heavenly so beauty is also the expression of the ultimate Joy of Our Lord and God.


Jeff the Finn

[Rev. Smith]

I'm an Old Catholic priest, serving a small congregation in Tucson, Az. I also serve as a "substiute" pastor for an Anglican Church. While the liturgies are different (triditine mass for the OC service and 1928 book of common prayer for the Anglicans) - they are also the similar in that they honor tradition. The art, music, prayer and celbration on our liturgies help focus us on that which is holy, and make us receptive to the eucharist. They also bind us to the Christians that went before. Each congregation is aware that the traditions they follow are those that were followed by thousands of Christians before us, we become part of a great continuem of faith, the People of God.

Are these things essential? Probably not - I have no doubt that millions are saved and come to paradise through Christ in many ways. Not all good things are essential. For many people traditional, orthodox, liturgical worship serves the dual purpose of making the communion with God easier to acheive and at the same time gives them the comfort and peace of knowing they are a part of a great, good and joyful community, one that has a holy past and worshipful future.

[Hairtrigger]

Does anyone think of worship as warfare ?