How Can We Grow Our Community?

[Toney]

Assuming it is desirable to increase participation in our new forum, I wonder how we best might go about it.

The "liberal" moniker while probably necessary does have negative connotations (kooky, left-wing, etc.) and may misstate who we truly are.

Employing pattern recognition and meaningful coincidence from recent threads and posts, I wonder if St Francis may provide a solution.

When PRE was subdivided, as PRE is wont to do, some congregations added flare to their titles. Others already had done so like OBOB and The Ancient Way.

Liberal Churches is just not good marque IMO.

Just for starters:

Brother Sun & Sister Moon Liberal Churches (Is that too Korean?)

[Treasure the Questions]

When I was reading that website about Liberal Christians I gave a link to I noticed it said Perhaps more so than evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians, liberal Christians see the teachings of Jesus as having a central place. Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience are each given equal footing in determining Christian faith.


Maybe we could go one up on the Anglican Communion and have Liberal Churches: Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience :confused:

Although, Communion of Liberal Christians might be better than Liberal Churches. It might put people off if they think they have to belong to a Liberal church.

Karin

[Maccie]

Personally I like 'Communion of Thinking Christians' but I don't suppose that would go down very well!!

Communion of Liberal Christians sounds fine!

Maccie

[Toney]

What about Koinonia House with "For Liberal Christians?"

[Treasure the Questions]

Not sure what Koinonia means. Is it something to do with fellowship? Will it mean the right thing to enough people?

[Toney]

Not sure what Koinonia means. Is it something to do with fellowship? Will it mean the right thing to enough people?

Yes, Christian fellowship with implication to the early Church. I had to look it up to be certain. I believe much of its meaning can be intuited, however. Even if I am wrong, the word itself is alluring and inviting. We need something like this.

[seebs]

Maybe we should ask for the title "Actual Christians, Who Really Listen To Christ".

Or would that be arrogant? :P

Thinking about it, though, it might be nice to come up with a friendly title/subtitle thing.

[seebs]

Hmm.

Looking at the names of OBAB and TAW, perhaps a less direct name.

Whadda y'all think of "Whosoever Will May Come - Liberal Christianity"?

[Toney]

The more I look into it, the more I like it (Koinonia). It refers to relationship between people, usually a spiritual relationship. It is used 36 times in the New Testament

(Matthew 23:30; Mark 7:15,18; Luke 5:10; Acts 2:42; Romans 12:13; 15:26; 1 Corinthians 1:9; 10:16,18,20; 2 Corinthians 1:7; 6:14; 8:4,23; 9:13; 13:13; Galatians 2:9; 6:6; Philippians 1:5; 2:1; 3:10; 4:15; 1 Timothy 5:22; 6:18; Philemon 1:6,17; Hebrews 10:33; 13:16; 1 Peter 4:13; 5:1; 2 Peter 1:4; 1 John 1:3,6,7,11)

and in every case refers to the spiritual relationship between Christ and Christians.

The Greek word koine refers to the language of the common man used to write the New Testament. For us, this symbolizes our "communion" of our shared beliefs rather than beliefs that divide us; the inclusive vs. exclusive notion of truth.

[nyj]

Well, if you had to summarize your faith in say... five words or less... how would you describe it?

For me it'd be something like: Faith through love.

[seebs]

Oooh, a very interesting and challenging question.

Unfortunately, the best phrase is 6 words - "Even as I have loved you". But "Whosoever will, may come" comes pretty close. As one of the people that many, many, Christians would rather have kept out of the faith entirely, I find this message has a great deal of personal meaning for me.

Heh.

"Putting the Christ back in Christianity". Also six words, but it fits.

[Anastasis]

What about Koinonia House with "For Liberal Christians?"
Ooooo, I likey. But I am a Greek nerd so there ya go.
(The word has a sense of common-ness but not with all the baggage that comes with that word in English if that makes any sense)

Well, if you had to summarize your faith in say... five words or less... how would you describe it?

For me it'd be something like: Faith through love.
I like that one too!!

Oooh, a very interesting and challenging question.

Unfortunately, the best phrase is 6 words - "Even as I have loved you". But "Whosoever will, may come" comes pretty close. As one of the people that many, many, Christians would rather have kept out of the faith entirely, I find this message has a great deal of personal meaning for me.

Heh.

"Putting the Christ back in Christianity". Also six words, but it fits.
And that one too - too many good choices.

I like the "Faith thru Love" one the best. (even though I'm bad at practicing that sometimes).

[Treasure the Questions]

Not sure about, Whosoever Will May Come , in the description of this section, seebs. It may be true that anyone who professes faith in Christ can be a liberal Christian, with no extra hoops to jump thorugh, but I wouldn't be comfortable with all and sundry arguing here in the same manner the "fundies" and conservatives do on other parts of the board. It's good that they can't come here and say "you are wrong" and "you can't be a real Christian, if you think that".

We need to make sure it is still possible for moderators to enforce a liberal only debate rule, or make a "respect for others" rule such as the one, which is enforced quite strictly on a liberal Christian website I visit, so that several self-righteous fundies have been banned from it and even a few non-fundies got their knuckles rapped recently for getting a bit heated.

I'm not sure if some are hoping that this would be open to all, in which case I can't really see the point in having a section for liberals.:scratch:

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick.

K

[nyj]

I like the "Faith thru Love" one the best. (even though I'm bad at practicing that sometimes).
I think we all are... just see my signature. It truly will be a miracle if I am ever a "good man".

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

How about something simple like "United In Christ"?

[seebs]

I was mostly thinking of WWMC in terms of one of the commonly observed points of dispute; that most liberals welcome people that a lot of other churches would say aren't allowed in the door.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

most liberals welcome people that a lot of other churches would say aren't allowed in the door.
"With Open Arms" or "The Open Door"?

[seebs]

Heh. "The Ghetto". :P

[nyj]

Heh. "The Ghetto". :P And the forum "theme song" can be "In the Ghetto" by Elvis.

[seebs]

I do rather like "Faith Through Love". I'm still trying to wrestle with what we're looking for; I guess, this is trying to get a nice short soundbite for "what group of people congregate here".

[Erwin]

Find a shortlist, make a poll, vote on it, and when you guys and gals have made a decision for a name, PM me, and I will make it so. :)

[Toney]

How about, Koinonia House: Faith Through Love?

Seebs, perhaps either you or Polycarp could OP a poll-thread. We are pretty much at a short list already.

It has been suggested that we could use Progressive rather than Liberal if we wish to define the Forum in that way.

I also like Faith Through Love but I'm unsure that it says enough to sound like a congregation.

It may be useful to have a short list sticky thread describing the new Forum in greater detail and offer a definition of what constitutes a liberal or progressive Christian. Without being too restrictive, of course.

On that list, I would encourage us to restrict the use of the following arguments:

1. from Biblical inerrancy
2. from literal interpretation
3. from "cause the Bible told me so" or similar appeals to authority

Thanks!

[seebs]

I don't see a reason to exclude literalists. I know some very good literalists, and also some literalists who are very "liberal" by many peoples' standards. I know at least a handful of literalist inerrantists who, for instance, would actively support legal polygamy, because it's Biblical. That's clearly a "liberal" position in most peoples' eyes...

Anyway, I think we should keep thinking for a while, see if we come up with any really cool names. We don't need to decide right away.

[elanor]

I wouldn't want anything that spoke of exclusion in any way. Too bad we can't just use the motto of the UMC: Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors. I love that!

And Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience is not exclusive to Anglicans. We know it as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. :)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

On that list, I would encourage us to restrict the use of the following arguments:

1. from Biblical inerrancy
2. from literal interpretation
3. from "cause the Bible told me so" or similar appeals to authority

Thanks!
I can definately understand 2, and I have heard of 1, but number 3? Where did you learn about Jesus, the Father, the Spirit, the resurrection, etc? I think that may be just a bit to far. I will concede to letting you have point 1, but 3 just seems too far out.

[Toney]

I can definately understand 2, and I have heard of 1, but number 3? Where did you learn about Jesus, the Father, the Spirit, the resurrection, etc? I think that may be just a bit to far. I will concede to letting you have point 1, but 3 just seems too far out.

Thanks. It's a good question and in #3 I was being a tad flippant. Sorry.

In dialectic, argument from 'appeal to authority' is often fallacious. As you know, the Bible frequently contradicts itself and a verse can be taken out of context to enhance a position in debate, sometimes legitimately but more often not.

Of course, not all literal interpretations nor all "The Bible states..." arguments are fallacious. When appealing to the Bible as authority, it is IMO good to know whether Biblical writers disagreed or interpreted events differently, when the text was written, by whom it was written, to whom it was written, and for what purpose(s) it was written.

A good reference is Who Wrote the New Testament by Burton Mack.

I agree with Elanor, the less of this the better. Having no exclusions may be the best solution -- don't fix it if it ain't broken. On second thought, I favour this position. I am a little touchy on the subject.

Last night I was nailed again by the Nicene Thought Police in another forum over Jesus' ascension into Heaven . It was a silly matter, actually. I affirm the Creed: Jesus did ascend into Heaven! But He certainly did not go zooming off into the galaxy from Mt Olivet and keep on going. Had He, traveling at the speed of light he'd still be in the Galaxy in the vicinity of Lyra assuming (literal) Heaven is in that direction.

So, a literal interpretation of the Bible can be used to support a bodily blast off as can Biblical inerrancy, since the Bible says what it says. With regard to the ascension and many other mysteries, the Biblical accounts are poetry not prose. The truth contained in the Bible and the way Biblical truths can be used in argument are two different things.

[Treasure the Questions]

First of all I would prefer the forum title to begin with Liberal Christians, but have no problem if Koinona slips into the definition. I feel we should define ourselves as Liberal Christians to avoid confusion.

Following that, what about Open Door for Open Minds or have I just read that here already? I think only Open Door has been mentioned.

Secondly, I think we should mull this over for a few more days yet. We want to let as many liberal Christians on CF find out about this form and partake in the process, don't we?

Do liberal Christians believe in democracy? Then we want as many as possible to feel they've had a hand in the choosing. Perhaps Loki and others like her could pass their comments on through people able to post here, as well.

Toney, I agree, liberal Christians don't tend to appeal to the Bible as the highest authority and don't think a simple "the Bible says" is a sufficient answer. We must take a closer look at what the Bible says and admit that something is our particular interpretation, when we disagree with other genuine Christian interpretations.
I think we should wait until after the weekend as some may only visit then and some may be away for a few days.

Karin

[Treasure the Questions]

Liberal Backslider



I’m a liberal backslider I’ve been sliding ‘bout ten years

People ask me how I’m doin’ and I confirm all their fears

I’m swearing like a trooper, and I’m drinking like a bum

I’m a liberal backslider and it sure is a lot of fun.



Been following these Footsteps now for many a year gone by

But you always upset someone there no matter how you try

Well the good things they’re forgotten if a bad thing comes around

Now all these stones are flyin’ they’re gonna knock me to the ground



I’m a liberal backslider I’ve been sliding ‘bout ten years

People ask me how I’m doin’ and I confirm all their fears

I’m swearing like a trooper, and I’m drinking like a bum

I’m a liberal backslider and it sure is a lot of fun.



I take a stand on justice, I take a stand on race

Gonna take me a TV evangelist and punch him in the face

I sing about the hope that’s in me and ask why the poor aren’t fed

But if I don’t tow the party line, it’s be better if I were dead



I’m a liberal backslider I’ve been sliding ‘bout ten years

People ask me how I’m doin’ and I confirm all their fears

I’m swearing like a trooper, and I’m drinking like a bum

I’m a liberal backslider and it sure is a lot of fun.



So I’ll be asking for forgiveness then until the day I die

Though I can’t be sure of what I’ve done I think I’d better try

Thank God you’re not the jury, thank God I’m not the judge

Here’s to a bigger picture, here’s to the bigger love!



I’m a liberal backslider I’ve been sliding ‘bout ten years

People ask me how I’m doin’ and I confirm all their fears

I’m swearing like a trooper, and I’m drinking like a bum

I’m a liberal backslider and it sure is a lot of fun.

(Martyn Joseph.)

In my opinion, and perhaps Karl's :confused: this has to be the theme song for all liberal Christians everywhere. I'm not sure where you can here the tune, though.

If you like contemporary music, and especially country, folk and rock styles and are a liberal Christian you would probably enjoy Martyn's C.D. Thunder and Rainbows, on which the song occurs. You can order that from Martyn's website here http://www.piperecords.co.uk/index.html

Martyn's homepage: http://www.piperecords.co.uk/martynj/

Karin

[seebs]

I always liked Hymn 43, by Jethro Tull.

Curiously, when I wasn't a Christian, I thought it was a great song to put Christians in their place. Now I think I understand it a bit better.

If Jesus saves,
well He'd better save Himself
from the gory glory seekers who use His name in death.
Oh Jesus save me!

[Treasure the Questions]

Hadn't come across that before, seebs. I must admit I'm not very familiar with Jethro Tull, although I'm sure I must have heard of something by them. You do mean the folk group, don't you? Or did the original man of that name write hymns - the language sounds too modern for that.


I often share the sentiment, though.:sigh:

Karin

[seebs]

Hadn't come across that before, seebs. I must admit I'm not very familiar with Jethro Tull, although I'm sure I must have heard of something by them. You do mean the folk group, don't you? Or did the original man of that name write hymns - the language sounds too modern for that.


I often share the sentiment, though.:sigh:

I have no idea what you'd call them. One of their albums, Rock Island, won "best heavy metal album" one year. I would call them "jazz, mostly". But it's the modern group, yes.

[Treasure the Questions]

I thought I'd heard them mentioned on Folk on 2, but maybe the agricultural overtones http://www.britannia.com/bios/jtull.html have confused me.

Karin

[seebs]

Oh, weird. It never even occurred to me that they might be named after an actual guy.

[artybloke]

I can definately understand 2, and I have heard of 1, but number 3? Where did you learn about Jesus, the Father, the Spirit, the resurrection, etc? I think that may be just a bit to far. I will concede to letting you have point 1, but 3 just seems too far out.

The reason why "cause the Bible told me so" is a bad argument is to do with the way it's used as a way of closing down arguments. "It says so in the Bible" is usually followed by someone quoting some obscure verse as justification for having a downer on a certain group of people: you know, rock'n'roll bad because it says so in Malachi, or something. Either that, or they say it's in the Bible, but then don't tell you where. Our knowledge of Christ also doesn't just come from the Bible, it comes from 2 millenia of interpretation of that Bible, and from the experience and worship of the church throughout those two millenia, and using the Bible as a weapon to batter your opponents with ain't very liberal.

[Anastasis]

Heh. "The Ghetto". :P
ROFL (I wanted the little smilie that's hitting the table and crying with laughter because that better describes what I did when I read that)

[Anastasis]

The reason why "cause the Bible told me so" is a bad argument is to do with the way it's used as a way of closing down arguments. "It says so in the Bible" is usually followed by someone quoting some obscure verse as justification for having a downer on a certain group of people: you know, rock'n'roll bad because it says so in Malachi, or something. Either that, or they say it's in the Bible, but then don't tell you where. Our knowledge of Christ also doesn't just come from the Bible, it comes from 2 millenia of interpretation of that Bible, and from the experience and worship of the church throughout those two millenia, and using the Bible as a weapon to batter your opponents with ain't very liberal.
So maybe we could make a rule like:
1. You have to quote chapter and verse - there are good concordances online so maybe not too tall an order.
2. And maybe something about having to put context to any versus that are used. Except I don't know how that would be implemented practically.

[Treasure the Questions]

People would also need to acknowledge that their interpretation isn't necessarily the only valid one.



Talking of smilies, and someone was, I love the new ones. I wanted a :thumbsup: earlier today.

Not sure when I shall use :liturgy: , mind.

Karin

[seebs]

Why impose rules like that? I don't think any formalized rule will work. I figure, if people are being friendly and acting in good faith, we don't really care.

[Treasure the Questions]

I agree, it's best to keep it simple.

The mods can use their discretion to enforce the board rules and its up to us to let people know if we aren't keen on their debating style - as liberally as we see fit. :D

Now I think we should :groupray: about it - mostly because I want to use the new smiley.

[Toney]

I agree: no rules, no stickies, just vigilance.

[seebs]

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, but you can get it for $5.99 at Wal-mart!

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Coming in late... (sleep? Whassat?)

I wonder about that book title from was it the fifties or sixties?

Honest to God

Because that's what it is, isn't it? We're the people who, if we're not sure we believe something the way we're "meant" to - be it Biblical inerrancy, the Creation or the Resurrection of Christ, are honest about it.

We are Christians because we bring our honest doubts, questions and difficulties to God. We are liberals because we don't see the heart of Christian faith as being assent to propositions (does that make us liberals in itself though?).

[Treasure the Questions]

While I tend to agree with you, and like your suggestion, Karl, could that sound a tad arrogant to others, and perhaps some might read into it a suggestion that they are not being honest.:confused: Although I'm sure you weren't intending such a thing.;)

Who wrote Honest to God, was it David Kossof, or someone else?

I'm also wondering is this meant to be a place for Christians with a theology that tends to be on the liberal side of evangelical, or anyone who isn't dogmatic, as Christians who are liberal-minded towards others' views of what it means to be a Christian don't necessarily have a liberal theology.

Karin

[Maccie]

John Robinson wrote "Honest to God"! :D

I'm not too sure at the moment that I would call myself a "Liberal Christian". I'm definitely post-evangelical, but I'm still struggling to sort out babies and bath water!!

You wouldn't want to exclude me, would you?? ;)

I did like the suggestion "Open hearts - Open minds" I'd qualify there! Perhaps we should be inclusive to start - if anyone starts getting all dogmatic, we can throw them out! :cool:

Maccie

[Treasure the Questions]

Ah! Thanks, Maccie, I hadn't hear of him, although the book title is familiar.

No Maccie, of course I wouldn't want to exclude you.:hug: A lot of what you say sounds fairly liberal anyway, and I'm probably still too much of an evangelical for some people's liking.

I'm happy for anyone to post here if they are willing to listen and their main aim isn't to insist their way is the only way to be a Christian. It's probably better for this area to be for all liberal-minded Christians, but I would like to be able to discuss more liberal theological issues, too.

Karin

[fragmentsofdreams]

I'd like some sort of reference to love or grace. They are so central to liberal practice.

[nyj]

I'd like some sort of reference to love or grace. They are so central to liberal practice.
Why not refer to both?

Love and Grace - Liberal Churches Forum

[Treasure the Questions]

Love and Grace - Liberal Churches Forum
As opposed to Will and Grace?;)

Yeah I was thinking along the lines of "Making God's grace known to all" or "Offering grace to all", but not sure it sounds quite right.

Karin

[seebs]

Hmm.

Faith through Love
Love and Grace
Whosever Will May Come

Any others?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I think those are the main ones.

[seebs]

Okay, so, how do people feel about picking a set of words, and then making the form name be "Catchphrase - Liberal Christians". I'd personally like to focus on Christians, not churches, because some liberal Christians go to non-liberal churches.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Yes, same here. I am conservative and fundamental on some issues, moderate in others, but always liberal in love :)

[Toney]

Definitely Christians rather than Churches. Someone suggested progressive rather than liberal. Personally, I'm delighted with either one.

[Reader Nilus]

We should be known as Radical Hard Core Christians!
Jeff the Finn

[Toney]

The Poll is OPed and Seebs has a delicious choice!