Maybe a Liberal way to Spread the Gospel?

[Im_A]

hello everyone. i am just starting up this thread on the topic of reaching others. i don't know if this is liberal, conservative, or whatever, but that does not matter to me. I will let others descided if it is liberal or conservative, but I just wanted to bring it up in this Forum, because I am curious of others opinions.

As Christians it seems we have been trained if you will to reach others. The first thing when most Christians address a need of someone who is not a Christian is if they have a walk with God. seems like we still believe that everything is fixed after you make a conscience choice. i do believe in the spiritual world if you will, yes, our souls are saved at that moment, but on this earthly, it isn't roses. Anymore, it almost seems like propaganda for Christianity. We can see how Christ Himself, when the needs of the people were shown, He did fulfill them, and then the "preaching" followed. Jesus never forced the issue. Sometimes people left undescided, confused. His Grace saved some, and no where is it mentioned if anyone was saved from the incident at the temple, to which Christ had to step up because of unholy actions going on within the temple. Today, we place tracts at toliet stalls. When engaged in conversation, we try to force the issue down their throats. A starving man needs to be replenished slowly, not with a 4 course meal and desert afterwards. He'll only throw it up. When someone has cancer, we tell them it will be healed if they have just enough faith, and how does that help the cause out when someone is dieing. To offer something that happens few and far between. Someone is financially low, so we tell them, maybe you should get involved in Church, tithe and God will give you ten-fold. Sounds like a good business pitch. We see it on the TV. Propaganda for people's ministry. Seems the main aspect that we show to people is "what God can do for them, i.e., salvation, possibility of being blessed with money, the big house, the Americain Dream, completely set free of depression." which nothing is wrong with those things, and God does do those things. I know He saved me, I am blessed with a job not being rich in money but a stable job, God has set me free, and helps me to control being depressed and so forth, that will be a long battle, but the fact that God is with me everyday to help me with addictions, depressions and so forth is better than thinking that God sneezes and everything is fine and that is it. I would rather have Divine Intervention everyday, than some idea of Wonder Working Miracle Power.

So really my main point is, I just believe we need to give the idea to non-believers, "to serve God, because of Who He is." We live in a different age then when Christ was alive. Christ was starting up a Revolution and we are making our attempts as a whole to continue the Revolution He started. We live in a generation to where everyone knows about Christianity. It is popular today, oxymoron eh? So why are we repeating the same rhetoric to non-believers? They need to know that Christianity is a step up from where they are at, and what it seems to be going most of these days is what most people has seen, has pushed them away. Funny how we live in a day to where science can prove the Bible as a historical document, technology has changed so much that the Gospel can be spread from the U.S. to Africa with the click of a mouse, but something is being missed, because spiritual search seems to be at an ultime high.

So i am starting to think that maybe we need to present God beyond Him saving our Souls, and giving good things or emotions on earth. I mean if serving God is all based upon us obtaining fire insurance, then what is the point in even believeing in God at all? We are believeing in something that cannot be proven. All the things on salvation is based on faith and the spiritual peace that God gives us, but if faith is solely based only on that, then how is that stable faith? How about we engage people in actual conversations, beside coffee shop debates/sermons? Showing what God is in the Bible, and what God is in our lives and the ways He has manifested Himself to us in our own lives, instead of the same rhetoric that is not working anymore. Showing what Christ's death means, and present God in a logical perspective. We are Human Beings, and Logic is something we call a friend. We are created in God's Image and Likenes. Has anyone been used by a so called "friend" because of what you can give to that person? It hurts, it angers us. What if we have been doing that most of the time? Not all the time, but a decent amount of the time is basically what I mean. Maybe by engaging in logical explanations of God, admitting that we dont' have all the answers, but offering maybe a spiritual friend to seek it out with. Throughly listening to other sides even when they differ and maybe come to no conclusion but we are searching, and agreeing to disagree. We are not God and we cannot change one person out there. The Holy Spirit is the only One to do that, but we are difinetely seed planters, and seeds take a decent amount of time to grow, as lone as we water the seed planted.

Joe

[seebs]

The Death of Evangelism (http://www.matthewsturges.com/2004/06/11.php#000142) is an essay by Matthew Sturges on this. He's a good writer, and I think he's right.

[UberLutheran]

...then it behooves us to be living the Gospels, ourselves.

I have found that attraction always works far better than promotion; and if we're talking the talk of God but walking the walk of "lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God" (2 Timothy 3:2-4) -- and let's face it: if you're a liberal Christian, you've run into some of these -- nobody is going to take our "God talk" seriously.

On the other hand, there are few things more inspiring that someone who walks their talk -- happily and cheerfully.

[nyj]

...then it behooves us to be living the Gospels, ourselves.

Preach the Gospel always, if necessary use words. - St. Francis of Assisi

I think he was onto something when he said that. :)

[seebs]

Preach the Gospel always, if necessary use words. - St. Francis of Assisi

I think he was onto something when he said that. :)

One of my favoritest quotes. And it works, I might add; a lot of people I know who were once pretty hostile to Christianity have gradually started seeing it as another thing that people can screw up, rather than as a bad thing. It takes time.

I wonder if part of this is a question of patience. If you're trying to "win souls", there's an urge to count a conversation that doesn't result in a tearful Sinner's Prayer as a "loss". What do you do if there's an altar call and no one comes up? You have to have the number to put in the report; "37 people were saved".

Me... I don't worry about their salvation. I've spent hours talking to people that, if the fruits they bear are any indication, are already as "saved" as you get while you still have a metabolism; not to "save" them, but to share with them my understanding of what salvation is, and why it matters. Also to learn from them.

When I talk to non-believers about faith, I make sure I listen to them, too. Without an understanding of where they are, how can I really speak to them, as opposed to reciting empty platitudes?

Furthermore, and this matters a lot: Very few people care much about whether or not there's a God when there's no food. People in pain are not especially receptive to preaching, and insofar as they are, it produces a dry and brittle "faith" that will probably not help them much at all.

[fragmentsofdreams]

The Death of Evangelism (http://www.matthewsturges.com/2004/06/11.php#000142) is an essay by Matthew Sturges on this. He's a good writer, and I think he's right.
Very good article.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Preach the Gospel always, if necessary use words. - St. Francis of Assisi

I think he was onto something when he said that. :)
I love that quote. St. Francis was a wise man filled with the Spirit of God.

[Treasure the Questions]

This is a very good question and one I have given much thought to.

Without realising it I used to be an evangelical Christian, and for 5 years I was drawn into a conservative view of Scripture. During that time I was persuaded I should discuss matters of salvation with my "unsaved" husband on a regualr basis, for his own good. It wasn't a very successful process as I had been taught that I know knew "the Truth" and should impart that to my husband. Nothing was said about listening to his point of view, or acknowledging that he might have a pont on occasion. Nothing was said about waiting until he asked questions. I am only thankful that I was not a good evangelical, having a bad memory for Bible verses and not being very persevering. This probably saved our marriage. I was very wicked and started to take his desire to not discuss the matter into consideration.http://www.christianforums.ca/images/smilies/eek.gif

I made practically no progress at all with my parents, as the subject is pratically taboo and makes my dad very heated. As to complete strangers and passing aquaintaces, I didn't even make a start.

Unfortunately I did feel very guilty at my failure to evangelise my husband, or anyone else, at every available opportunity, and this guilt, added to guilt for other things the evangelicals taught me I was doing wrong has been hard to overcome, but I think I've dealt with most of it now.

Of course, now I've had a chance to think the matter over without continual indoctrination, I realise how doomed to failure this method is.

Liberal Christians must have a better way to proclaim the Gospel. The Gospel is the Good News that God loves people. How better to proclaim that than to show people God's love, to get alongside non-Christians, whenever we can, acting naturally and holding normal conversations with them, in fact, just getting to know them better and letting them get to know us.

The big challenge is to be really living Christlike lives, so that when they get to know us they can see that we are different, and in a good way. Maybe then they will ask questions about the One we call Lord, and maybe we shall be able to give gracious answers worthy of our Lord and show them the respect he would show them.

I wish liberal Christians had made more of an effort to evangelise me, as I came to faith and started to try and find our what it was about, but it's hard to compete with people who are less respectful of others' opinions and tell everyone they are the only "true" Christians around.

Dave Andrews, an Australian, has written a couple of books that encourage Christians to get into the community and witness with their lives, but not everyone will feel able to do as he does. The are worth reading, though. The first is Christianarchy:Radical spirituality for a new millennium http://www.lion-publishing.co.uk/features/0745942342.htm and the second is Not Religion, but Love: practising a radical spirituality of compassion http://www.palms.org.au/reviews/notreligion.htm

Dave Andrews is probably still an evangelical, just about, but one who is disillusioned with most of its manifestations and who has been badly burned by it in the past, so one who is aware of many of its faults and is happy to criticise it when he sees fit.

Some people look to the model of Celtic Christian monasticism, which was a freer system than Roman monasticism. It may have had its faults, but again it offers a model of working alongside non-Christians to put us in a better position to spread the gospel. Like Dave Andrews' model it also involves Christians meeting together regularly for prayer and support.

It's finding a system along these lines that suits us, and finding like-minded Christians who can form a system of mutual support with us. This practical outworking is what I find the hardest. Of course actually putting our noble thoughts into practice is always the difficult bit, but I am not aware of many like-minded Christians locally. Although, as I say that, I am struck by the thought that perhaps I should get to know the local Quakers better.

Sorry, I've ramble rather a lot, but it seems to have helped me think of a way of moving forward, so hope you don't mind.

Karin

[chalice_thunder]

Preach the Gospel always, if necessary use words. - St. Francis of Assisi

I think he was onto something when he said that. :)

Thanks for reminding us of this. St. Francis ROCKS!

[Toney]

From the 613 "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots" in the Torah, Jesus taught that foremost we should love God with heart, mind and soul and love others as ourselves.

In keeping with Jesus' teaching that whatever we do unto the least of them we do unto Him, I suppose that by loving our neighbor, by living the social Gospel, we demonstrate our love for God. But what about our hearts?

This thread has spoken of St Francis. In his immitation of Christ, rather than feed the poor (he came from a rich family), he himself became poor. When the cross at San Damiano spoke to St Francis and asked him to "go and repair my house," Francis dutifully began brick and mortar work around the little church. Of course, that was not what God had in mind. The mendicant Franciscans and Dominicans "rebuilt" the Catholic Church and laid a foundation stone for Western Civilization.

Loving God with our whole heart is to be in conversant relationship with Him just as Francis and all the other mystic saints were. That is what is meant by, "Be Holy for I am Holy."

[Treasure the Questions]

I forgot to mention that Dave Andrews' talks at Greenbelt last year were about new communities of Francis' and Claires. He saw St Francis as a model for spreading faith in today's "New Dark Age". If anyone's interested you can get all 3 of his talks here http://www.greenbelt.org.uk/shop/talks/search.php?year=2003

They're quite good, but I think most of us would need to adapt his ideas somewhat, but if you're in need of inspiration they might be just the trick.

Karin

[Toney]

I forgot to mention that Dave Andrews' talks at Greenbelt last year were about new communities of Francis' and Claires.

Karin

Could you please post a brief synopsis of Andrews' ideas? The site you linked has a shopping cart, but little information about his talks.

Specifically, I am wondering if his thoughts might hint at ways we can grow our online LC Community. In other words, how we might market our forum to the broader CF Christian membership. We need something IMO that resonates more effectively than the word Liberal, which to some is burdened by negative and political connotations.

Our Western societies are in a decadent phase, which Barzun describes as "spiritual malaise" in his monumental work, From Dawn to Decadence, assuredly similar in character to Andrews' New Dark Age.

[Treasure the Questions]

He gave some notes out at the talk I managed to get to, I'll try and put something together from that, or from listening to his first talk, but it won't be straight away.

Karin

[Toney]

Thanks, Karin.

In Cornwall we say, "I'll get to it directly."

[Im_A]

i just hope and pray that as we continue to talk about this issue, that instead of just talking about the theoritical views of showing more love, we start disecting the old way of evanglism, and find the bad parts of it, and get it out, and let something new and of God grow into it. we have to remember, that we did find the gospel through that old way. we found Jesus through that, either at a young or old age. but just like every other system, nothing is perfect, only God Himself. The message Christ taught is perfect because it will always stand the test of our imperfections, and I praise God for finding Him somehow, someway, but like Paul talks about, we need to move from drinking milk, and start eating meat in our faith, and with this issue of evangilism, i surely hope we can get all that sour milk out of our system. (please pardon my cliche' comments there, but sometimes the first things that come to mind to get a point across may be cliched', but hey sometimes they give out the points the best :) ) God Bless <><

Joe

[Im_A]

anther good refence to check out is Brian McLaren. I am currently reading one of his books, co-written with Tony Campola, called, "Adventures in Missing the Point." awesome book so far.

Brian McLaren is a pastor of a trans-denominational church in Maryland I believe. (Forgive me for not remembering the exact name of the church.) He is into post-modernism, and Christianity of course. His ideas are refreshing.

to toney, about finding a different word over Liberal, what about Progressive?

Joe

[Treasure the Questions]

By the way, do any of you know about Sojourners and Sojomail? http://www.sojo.net

It seems all liberal Christians on the internet know about it in the UK, perhaps because Jim Wallis often visits Greenbelt. What about in the US?

Karin

[chalice_thunder]

By the way, do any of you know about Sojourners and Sojomail? http://www.sojo.net

It seems all liberal Christians on the internet know about it in the UK, perhaps because Jim Wallis often visits Greenbelt. What about in the US?

Karin

Great organization. Jim Wallis came to our cathedral to lead a national conference on social justice and evangelism some years ago - he was amazing!

[Anastasis]

By the way, do any of you know about Sojourners and Sojomail? http://www.sojo.net (http://www.sojo.net/)

It seems all liberal Christians on the internet know about it in the UK, perhaps because Jim Wallis often visits Greenbelt. What about in the US?

Karin
I've never heard of him - but that's a great site - thanks for the link

(yes I'm American despite the flag icon - maybe I should change that since I'm only living there?)

[Treasure the Questions]

Could you please post a brief synopsis of Andrews' ideas? The site you linked has a shopping cart, but little information about his talks.

Specifically, I am wondering if his thoughts might hint at ways we can grow our online LC Community. In other words, how we might market our forum to the broader CF Christian membership. We need something IMO that resonates more effectively than the word Liberal, which to some is burdened by negative and political connotations.

Our Western societies are in a decadent phase, which Barzun describes as "spiritual malaise" in his monumental work, From Dawn to Decadence, assuredly similar in character to Andrews' New Dark Age.
I shall try a brief synopsis, although I'm not sure if it will help with marketing the forum.

In his first talk at Greenbelt last year (2003) he expressed concern for the way the rich Western elite was trying to shut itself off from the rest of the world in a way similar to the rich shutting themselves in their castles in Medieval times. He feels society as a whole has become more exclusive and this includes the attitude of many Christians. The manifestations of our spiritual malaise that he mentioned were the War on Terror and on Iraq, and the treatment of refugees in Australia.

He went on to say that he thought the answer was for more Christians to adopt an incarnational lifestyle similar to that of Saints Friancis and Clare.

He used the example of St Elisabeth of Hungary to illustrate what he meant, and I see he has repeated a lot of what he said in this article http://www.tear.org.au/resources/target/031/queen_who_served_beggards.htm

The beginning of his notes for his second talk at Greenbelt 2003 he says:

The past cannot be altered, but the future can be, and to change the future - without provoking futher oppression - we need to develop movements that will engage the coming Dark Age as faithfully - and as effectively - as Francis and Clare did in their day.

I believe for such movements to be faithful we will need to fless out the same passionate and compassionate spirit as Francis and Clare did.

But to do that effectively in a post-moder age, as opposed to a pre-modern age, we will need to evolve different structures and processes.

No matter how bad things are, the good news is we can always 'repent'.

We can repent of our idolatry.

We can repent of our apathy towards the poor.

We can repent of our support of the current status quo.

We can repent of our un-Christ-like attitude towards others.

We still have time to turn around and change the way we live our lives!

We can turn around and - like Francis and Clare - embrace 'incarnatio', rather than 'imperialism', as the way to go - coming alongside peolpe as one of them, setting aside our agenda, and creating time and space in our lives to serve them.
(Phil 2:6-8)
There is a lot more, but I think that'll have to do, for now, anyway. If anything else strikes me as important I shall try to add that later.

Karin

[Toney]

Thank you, Karin!

Incarnational Spirituality. "Putting on Christ" as Paul wrote, "so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need." (1 Thes 4:12, emphasis mine.)

We're missing a member (CaDan) right now because our door is locked to outsiders. Over at MJ, Jews are allowed to dialogue with Messianics and there even is a Jewish Debate Subforum for Jews and Messianics. Other Christians cannot post there. Right now there is a teriffic thread on the Divinity of Christ. Rooster and The Thadman are well informed; The Thadman is an Aramaic expert. Whilst there, I learned a good deal from both.

I fully support Erwin's position on CO Fora, but perhaps we can open a backdoor to 'outsiders.' Is it too soon to ask for a subforum with relaxed rules like MJ?

[Treasure the Questions]

Why do we build walls and shut doors? Because we feel vulnerable and are afraid of other people, of being hurt by them of being shouted down by them?

As Christians we probably shouldn't build walls and slam doors in people's faces, but on the other hand, if we cannot continue a discussion amongst ourselves without being shouted down and maybe even abused surely we need a place into which we can withdraw to do so.

It does pose a dilemma.

If subfora are possible that might help us out of it.

Karin

[Toney]

As Christians we probably shouldn't build walls and slam doors in people's faces, but on the other hand, if we cannot continue a discussion amongst ourselves without being shouted down and maybe even abused surely we need a place into which we can withdraw to do so.


This is Erwin's argument. If we can live with the venom, Liberal Theology provides a steady spew. Most of us post in there anyway. It's like our morning coffee. LC is sanctuary.

My selfish motivations for inclusive, informed dialogue (LT is like bad coffee in a bad coffeehouse) is to learn. There have been several times in my life when I felt I gained some ground and moved the fences with the most recent mind expansion taking place at Messianic Judaism.

I would like to have good coffee here with some Jews, liberal minded Messianics and atheists like Loki whilst enjoying the fenced protection from those who seethe bad coffee yet seem to enjoy it.