We First Must Become Better Spiritual Jews

[Toney]

The Hellenized Church has done a great disservice to God and "deceived the elect" as foretold.

We have been taught that we Christians are the New Israel. We have been taught that we have a New Covenant and that the Old Covenant has been superseded. We have been taught that we have replaced the Jews as God’s chosen ones; that God gave up, divorced and abandoned them.

This is called Replacement Theology. It is outrageous.

This review of our Sacred Obligation (http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/partners/CSG/Sacred_Obligation.htm) as Christians is offered for your reflection and commentary.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Interesting points.

I disagree with this one though:


7. Christians should not target Jews for conversion.

In view of our conviction that Jews are in an eternal covenant with God, we renounce missionary efforts directed at converting Jews. At the same time, we welcome opportunities for Jews and Christians to bear witness to their respective experiences of God’s saving ways. Neither can properly claim to possess knowledge of God entirely or exclusively.


I think the Jews will be converted when the full number of Gentiles are in the flock. I believe the Bible when it says that Jesus is necessary for salvation.

[Treasure the Questions]

The Hellenized Church has done a great disservice to God and "deceived the elect" as foretold.

We have been taught that we Christians are the New Israel. We have been taught that we have a New Covenant and that the Old Covenant has been superseded. We have been taught that we have replaced the Jews as God’s chosen ones; that God gave up, divorced and abandoned them.

This is called Replacement Theology. It is outrageous.


How so, when it is the New Testament that teaches these things?

Those who follow Christ and his teaching are the new people of God, whether they are Jew or Gentile and in Christ their is neither Jew nor Gentile.

Those who reject Jesus reject this blessing, whatever it entails, do they not?

I wouldn't say God has given up on the Jews and abandoned them. I don't think God has given up on anyone, but surely when Jews refuse to accept Jesus as God's revelation of himself they abandon God?

This sounds like right wing, conservative Christian theology to me, but I know things are seen differently in the US from here in Britain.

Karin

[UberLutheran]

I know it is as offensive to people of other to religions for us to try to "convert" them as it is for me when they try to "convert" me.

I know what I believe. I'm more than willing to share what I believe, and to listen to what the other person believes. My responsibility is to live what I believe, and to trust that perhaps I have something that the other person wants.

But to "evangelize" and tell someone they're going to Hell if they don't believe what I believe -- no.

(Incidentally -- there are a lot of really lovely, deeply meaningful customs and traditions within Judaism which have readily adopted into my own practice of Christianity -- in particular, lighting of the Sabbath candles, a special Sabbath dinner, and a ceremonial glass of very good wine when I blow out the Sabbath candle before going to bed on Sunday evening to remind me that whatever happens during the week, I can reflect on the sweetness of the Sabbath with the realization that the Sabbath will come again.

We also observe a Seder at my Lutheran church on Passover -- except that we also include a Communion with bread and wine; and one person leaves abruptly after eating the bread as part of our enactment of the Last Supper.)

[Toney]

I know it is as offensive to people of other to religions for us to try to "convert" them as it is for me when they try to "convert" me.



Yours is a beautiful story and fine example of living our Christian faith in the light of our Jewish heritage, which can add so much to our understanding of Christianity and of God.

I would like to quote a Catholic Cardinal on this point.

"God’s grace, which is the grace of Jesus Christ according to our faith, is available to all. Therefore, the Church believes that Judaism, i.e. the faithful response of the Jewish people to God’s irrevocable covenant, is salvific for them, because God is faithful to his promises." -- Cardinal Walter Kasper, President of the Pontifical Commission for the Religious Relations with the Jews.

Not only is it offensive to Jews to try to convert them, it is unnecessary.

[Anastasis]

We also observe a Seder at my Lutheran church on Passover -- except that we also include a Communion with bread and wine; and one person leaves abruptly after eating the bread as part of our enactment of the Last Supper.)
In my Greek class we talked about what goes on in a Seder meal and it really improved my understanding of what went on at the Last Supper.

I think that incorporating a Seder meal into our Easter services is a great idea for all Christians - I even found a site that sells a Christian Haggadah

http://www.christianseder.com/

In case anyone is more interested.

[Talmidah]

I know it is as offensive to people of other to religions for us to try to "convert" them as it is for me when they try to "convert" me.

I know what I believe. I'm more than willing to share what I believe, and to listen to what the other person believes. My responsibility is to live what I believe, and to trust that perhaps I have something that the other person wants.
I'm posting here at the invitation of Toney:wave: , and just wanted to quickly say that this is an excellent point, and nicely stated. It really is offensive to Jews to be proselytized and most Christians would probably not appreciate people from other religions trying to convert them.

[nyj]

Cardinal Walter Kasper, President of the Pontifical Commission for the Religious Relations with the Jews.
However Toney, and you must know this... not many Catholics consider him the "voice of orthodoxy" from within the Catholic Church. Also, those commissions are as much political as they are theological.

[praying]

But to "evangelize" and tell someone they're going to Hell if they don't believe what I believe


I could never and still don't understand this philosophy. I believe that for the most part all that does is alienate people. Why would I tell an atheist as an example he is going Hell he doesn't believe, yet this is so often the tactic used. Scare tactics.

I have a friend (initials G.S.) at work he is from India a naturalized US citizen he is Siek (sp). I have another friend he is the Christian fundamentalists fundamentalist.

The three of us use to often discuss spiritual and religious matters, until my fundamentalist friend told G.S. that he worshipped the devil and was going to Hell. Needless to say not only was G.S. offended but he was deeply insulted and for a while did not speak with FF (fundy friend ;) ). G.S. has decided to no longer discuss these issues with him since that point, can you blame him. He does with me he shares things from Rumi and other prophets from his religion and I share the Bible with him. I will still discuss religion and spiritual matters with FF but of course we have differing views on various topics.

It's funny the threat of Hell never comes into play in my believe in Christ. The good I feel when worshipping, the communion when reading His words, the ability hopefully to make someone feel the love of Christ through me is part of what keeps me rooted to Christ not the threat of damnation to eternal fires for not believing.

[Toney]

However Toney, and you must know this... not many Catholics consider him the "voice of orthodoxy" from within the Catholic Church. Also, those commissions are as much political as they are theological.

An excellent point, but the official position does seem to be softening somewhat. Time will tell.

[Treasure the Questions]

Churches Together in our town held a Seder in our church during the last week of lent, the year before last. It was very interesting. I'm not sure I could do it at home though, I don't think anyone else would be very keen. Perhaps Churches Together could be persuaded to do it again this year.

Karin

[Toney]

There is a thread at LT that presently is dealing with the scandalous topic of a merciful God. Discussion centers around what the literalists consider the finer points of the story of a woman caught in adultery related in John 8 and how Jesus handled the situation.

I lifted this quote, which was posted by a Mod and offer it in support of my campaign for reading the Bible through a Jewish lens. This text comes from the Mishnah (http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/TalmudMap/Mishnah.html#Term). The Mishnah is part of the Talmud (http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/TalmudPage.html#Page), a written version of Oral Torah.

The Jewish law

What was stoning and how was it carried out

Explanation Mishnah Four

Section one: "According to the Rabbis, stoning was not carried out by throwing stones at the person until he dies, which would seem to be the normal way that one would understand stoning . Rather the person is pushed off a two story platform and then stones are dropped on him.* The first witness is the one who pushes him off and if he dies then the execution is over and no further stoning is done. If the person is still alive then the second witness throws a stone on him.* If he dies the execution is over, but if he remains alive the rest of Israel throws stones at him.* This process is based on a biblical verse.* We should note two things.* First of all the mishnah is careful to stone the person only until he dies.* Once he dies, the Rabbis forbade further disfiguration of his body.* Second, the Torah requires the witnesses to take part in the stoning .* A witness must believe his testimony firmly enough to actually carry out the execution himself. In some cases this might discourage false testimony."

[Toney]

The heated debate at Liberal Theology centers on the teaching in John's Gospel, which I quote so you don't have to look it up (emphasis mine):

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery... and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

"No one, sir," she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin.""

I don't really understand the issue being debated in the LT thread, so I will not refer to it. Anyway, one needs good mud tires and an even temper to hang around that forum. I have neither.

I believe that the writer of John is trying to get across much less than we try to make out of this story. The Torah is quite clear on capital punishment. Jesus was quite clear that He did not come to abrogate the law. He told Pilate before facing capital punishment Himself that he (Pilate) would have no power over him had it not been given from above.

John's Gospel was written after Jewish-Christians were expelled from the synagogue. His polemic against the Jews (scribes and Pharisees) is very strong, especially in this chapter (read the rest of it!).

What speaks to me profoundly in this story, is the teaching that Jesus will not be drawn into civil court! The Son of Man is bored with the whole thing and, as either CaDan or Seebs wrote, he doodles.

This speaks to His divinity in a powerful way. Jesus speaks to the characters in this story from His Father's court, and His testimony is one of infinite mercy.

Father, forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.

[McCravey]

The converting idea is a dangerous one.....I don't like it much anymore.

It is like converting a minivan into a bus, or a motorcycle into a car, or something like that.....not a very pretty and functional outcome.

Think of it more like becoming...or being...sort of a recycling, crushing, redesigning and then rebuilding project.

Only Christ can do that.

I help him whenever I can. I usually try to help someone out who is down and out....and I try to not mention Christ or God in the process....unless I am asked...and the Spirit is leading me in my reply.