Apostles Torah Observant

[RyanLJohnson1]

Lately, I have been doing as much research as possible on Messianic Judaism.

There are many sites out there that are completely against it... and from what I have encountered it is looked down upon by most of the churches of today... even to the extent of it being a cult movement.

How can there be so much opposition to the movement?

I believe that if I can prove that the Apostles were Torah observant AFTER Christ's resurrection, then I would have a major strongpoint. How can I show this to people?

I have seen a few things about "The Jerusalem Council" or whatever it is called in Acts 15... about how the Gentiles were encouraged to come to synagogue and learn the ways of the Torah.

So, in a way, the Messianic movement is going back to how the faith was originally, correct? The impression I have been getting is that the believing Jews pretty much ran the synagogue, and the Gentiles were encouraged to come and learn about the Torah and to start following it... of course, this was optional.

So if we are going back to how it originally was, why is there so much opposition? :scratch:

Is there something that I am missing here? Can some people explain to me how the faith originally was, and confirm that the Apostles were Torah observant and encouraged the teaching and observing of the Torah?

Why are things so different now? :confused: I am getting opposition left and right... and it is taking its toll on me. I have spent the past 6 months trying to get a friend out of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and now it's as if everybody is trying to do the same to me because I am now Messianic...

Thanks!

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[SaintGeorge]

Hey, we're looking for the same thing: the original Christian Church. You should join the site I made. We need members for it.

These are our goals:

*To read every book ever incorporated into the Bible or said to be G-d's Word.
*To compile a complete list of every denomination's doctrines and teachings made by members of those denominations themselves.
*To decide the true doctrines of the Bible and find out what Yeshua and His apostles really taught.

Interested? If so, private message me.

[Katydid]

Ryan, I just bought a book, I haven't finished it yet, but it may be helpful to you. It is called

They Loved The Torah
by David Friedman, Ph.D.

The subtitle is
What Yeshua's First Followers Really Thought About the Law

As I said, I haven't finished it yet, but it seems to be good so far.

[JewishHeart]

good book katydid, reccomended!

[JewishHeart]

Acts 21 is a good chapter to read as well! Acts 15 and 21, I always find that it helps to go back to the OT prophecies about Messiah. If the apostolic foundation did not include Torah, then our interpretation of Yeshua as Messiah is false.

[CharlesYTK]

If Yeshua abolished Torah, then He can not be messiah.

[By Grace]

Ryan, I just bought a book, I haven't finished it yet, but it may be helpful to you. It is called

They Loved The Torah
by David Friedman, Ph.D.

The subtitle is
What Yeshua's First Followers Really Thought About the Law

As I said, I haven't finished it yet, but it seems to be good so far.
Oooooh, my mom just ordered that book off of amazon--I'm looking forward to reading it!

[Bon]

Lately, I have been doing as much research as possible on Messianic Judaism.

There are many sites out there that are completely against it... and from what I have encountered it is looked down upon by most of the churches of today... even to the extent of it being a cult movement.

How can there be so much opposition to the movement?

I believe that if I can prove that the Apostles were Torah observant AFTER Christ's resurrection, then I would have a major strongpoint. How can I show this to people?

I have seen a few things about "The Jerusalem Council" or whatever it is called in Acts 15... about how the Gentiles were encouraged to come to synagogue and learn the ways of the Torah.

So, in a way, the Messianic movement is going back to how the faith was originally, correct? The impression I have been getting is that the believing Jews pretty much ran the synagogue, and the Gentiles were encouraged to come and learn about the Torah and to start following it... of course, this was optional.

So if we are going back to how it originally was, why is there so much opposition? :scratch:

Is there something that I am missing here? Can some people explain to me how the faith originally was, and confirm that the Apostles were Torah observant and encouraged the teaching and observing of the Torah?

Why are things so different now? :confused: I am getting opposition left and right... and it is taking its toll on me. I have spent the past 6 months trying to get a friend out of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and now it's as if everybody is trying to do the same to me because I am now Messianic...

Thanks!

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

Ryan, first, hang in there,
Check out this article....it's very comprehensive but with loads of good info.

http://home.att.net/~tnt_robinson/wsb/TheRestorationofTorahII.htm

See especially Chapter VIII "New Covenant believers obeyed the Law (Torah)"

But the whole article is very informative if you have time.

This bible verse always makes me glad to be in the minority
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter by the narow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

If you read my signature and keep it in mind when studying the scriptures... you can't go wrong.

Always ask for bible scriptures as proof from those trying to disuede you....but remember this:

Always check the CONTEXT and the HISTORY behind the scriptures in question.
The truth must be presented in a COMPREHENSIVE way.

I'll leave you with a quote from the artcle which may help clear up some things for you...

Israel tried to pursure a Law of righteousness apart from faith, and the Gentiles have pursued faith apart from the Law (obedience to Torah).
Both are wrong...The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Shalom from Bon

[KelsayDL]

Well, one proof is the fact that long after Yeshuas death and his discourse in Mark on clean and unclean... Is the fact that the apostles still kept a completely kosher diet. At least the apostles hand picked by him, the ones who walked this earth with him.


When you read acts, where Peter falls asleep and has his dream where the Lord tells him to kill and eat. Peter refuses and states he has never eaten anything unclean, EVER. And in his dream still does not btw. Anyway, long after Yeshuas death, the apostles he chose were keeping a kosher diet. I find it amazing that some try to pass off the events in Mark as Yeshua aboloshing the dietary laws, when clearly that is not what happened at all, nor did his Apostles see it that way.

I guess in todays day and age we know more about what Yeshua meant than the men who knew him and conversed with him daily. :scratch:

[debi b]

Why are things so different now? :confused: I am getting opposition left and right... and it is taking its toll on me.

The very best thing to do now is study. Let me define what I mean by that. Very simply we know this to be reading scripture. True enough. But it does make a difference how you do that. A systematic, consistent, contextual approach is what I am talking about. Many people just pick a spot in the text and read bits and pieces here and there. YIKES! It is so easy to miss the point or misapply the point. Many people are unaccustomed to regular daily commited times of study.

If you want to learn about calculus for example, everyone knows you first need to know your numbers, learn to add, then subtract, then multiply, then learn division etc. But we don't tend to look at scripture that way. If you want to understand Paul for example you need to know what he knew. And you know the answer to that TORAH :D . You need to watch what scriptures he quotes and the points he is making from those scriptures. And it is very helpful to get some idea of what the common understanding was/is on those issues so you can understand why those issues are being addressed etc.

Quite honestly it takes a lifetime, you got a good jump on it :) Hang in there we are all in this together!

[By Grace]

Ryan, first, hang in there,
Check out this article....it's very comprehensive but with loads of good info.

http://home.att.net/~tnt_robinson/wsb/TheRestorationofTorahII.htm

See especially Chapter VIII "New Covenant believers obeyed the Law (Torah)"

But the whole article is very informative if you have time.
Bon, I can't get the link to work. Can you tell me if there's another way to get to the website?

Thanks,

[Bon]

Bon, I can't get the link to work. Can you tell me if there's another way to get to the website?

Thanks,

Hi Jill,
I checked my link and was able to get through.
Try it again and scroll down the page a little way as it is blank at the top and you may think that you didn't get to the page.

Otherwise try the homepage at
http://home.att.net/~tnt_robinson/wsb/index.html

or type in Restoration of Torah Ministries in a search engine.

good luck

Shalom from Bon

[RyanLJohnson1]

Acts 21 is a good chapter to read as well!
Today, I opened up my Bible to Acts 21 and proceeded to read.

Acts 21:21-24

WOW! :clap: So basically, there were reports that Paul was telling the people, "Hey, don't follow the Torah (see Acts 21:21)," but as you can see in verse 24 there was no truth in these reports, and Paul himself lived in obedience to the Torah!!!! Paul even made it a point to disprove these reports of no truth!!!

This is the same situation that we have today. People are saying, "Hey, don't follow the Torah! The Bible says that we are free from the Torah!"

What we are free of is condemnation through the Torah. That is how Jesus fulfilled the Torah (Matthew 5:17).

HOW can it be SO UNCLEAR to the majority that the Torah is not abolished? Is it not obvious that Paul defended Torah observance in Acts 21? Is it not obvious that Paul himself followed the Torah? :scratch:

It's one of those issues that you just want to say "duh" to. So, I will say it.

DUH!

Let us not make up false reports again as MANY are doing! I'm sure that Paul is turning in his grave! :doh:

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[RyanLJohnson1]

http://www.madbbs.com/users/tjohnson/duh1.gif

Hehe ;)

[ShirChadash]

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ROFL!


Hey, Ryan, remember that we all read the Word with a messy mixture of what we think it says, what others have told us it says, what the church has conditioned us to think it says... until

until

UNTIL

we realize that we have been doing that, and then we begin -- and I mean, just begin (it's a slow process, isn't it? We have to keep reminding ourselves, I think) to read the Word for what it actually says and means... to consider context, to take the whole counsel of the Word into account... like someone basically said here recently, (was it Debi?) to understand Paul, you must learn what Paul knew -- Torah. You must understand who he really was and what he lived and espoused before you can read what he taught and wrote and begin to get a clue that he was not anti-Torah nor was he teaching or intending for the church to be anti-Torah.

[Bon]

Today, I opened up my Bible to Acts 21 and proceeded to read.

Acts 21:21-24

WOW! :clap: So basically, there were reports that Paul was telling the people, "Hey, don't follow the Torah (see Acts 21:21)," but as you can see in verse 24 there was no truth in these reports, and Paul himself lived in obedience to the Torah!!!! Paul even made it a point to disprove these reports of no truth!!!

This is the same situation that we have today. People are saying, "Hey, don't follow the Torah! The Bible says that we are free from the Torah!"

What we are free of is condemnation through the Torah. That is how Jesus fulfilled the Torah (Matthew 5:17).

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan


{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HalleluYAH}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

HOW can it be SO UNCLEAR to the majority that the Torah is not abolished? Is it not obvious that Paul defended Torah observance in Acts 21? Is it not obvious that Paul himself followed the Torah? :scratch:

I scratch my head too Ryan...but in reality, it is Yahweh's will whether to open our eyes to the truth or not to.

I scratch my head so much more, in awe of HIM, and WHY He chose to open MY eyes to the truth?

Be thankful to Him every day!

Shalom from Bon

[debi b]

Another big hint to understanding Paul is understanding the time frame he is talking about - This present physical world OR the world which is coming. If you can begin to use this frame work to view Paul's writings it will unlock them.

NKJV - Hbr 2:5 - For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

JNT Hebrews 2:5 For it was not to the angels that Elohim subjected the olam haba - which is what we are talking about.

Reread Hebrews with that frame of reference and it is a whole new book :clap:

[RyanLJohnson1]

I scratch my head so much more, in awe of HIM, and WHY He chose to open MY eyes to the truth?

Be thankful to Him every day!
Inspiring :clap:

[RyanLJohnson1]

Another big hint to understanding Paul is understanding the time frame he is talking about - This present physical world OR the world which is coming. If you can begin to use this frame work to view Paul's writings it will unlock them.
I think that to fully understand Paul's writings, you need to start from the beginning and make sure to write down every context clue like you have said, such as, "time frame." People are very good at ripping things out of context!

Such as Acts 15:20.

Acts 15:20

I'm sure that some people will stop there and say, "Hey, we should only abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood!" What is not taken into context is that what is said here addresses mostly dietary issues... which is one of the first things that is taught from the Torah to young children. You must take that into consideration and then read the rest of it:

Acts 15:21

Moshe is read in the synagogues every Sabbath! Clearly there is more to be learned and more to follow, and "the four" isn't all that there is... it is a place to start :D

It is now clear to me that the Apostles WERE Torah observant, and if they were alive today they would STILL be Torah observant!

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[By Grace]

Hi Jill,
I checked my link and was able to get through.
Try it again and scroll down the page a little way as it is blank at the top and you may think that you didn't get to the page.

Otherwise try the homepage at
http://home.att.net/~tnt_robinson/wsb/index.html

or type in Restoration of Torah Ministries in a search engine.

good luck

Shalom from Bon
:doh: Duh!

Thanks, Bon.

[RyanLJohnson1]

:doh: Duh!
lol ^_^