Why do you consider yourself a 'liberal' Christian?

[datan]

just curious.

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Me?

Because "The Bible says..." is the beginning of debate, not its end.
Because all language used about God is imprecise, metaphorical and provisional, and therefore old ways to talk about God can become misleading as our frame of reference changes, and we must find new ways.
Because conscience cannot be taken prisoner by literalism
Because inerrancy and infallibility are not useful concepts, because even if the Bible texts were one or the other, none of our interpretations are.
Because God is a rational, reasoning and creative being, and made us in His image.

Just some reasons.

[seebs]

Well, apart from my positions on the Topics Which Must Not Be Named (TWMNBN, hereafter)...

I believe that it is possible that I am wrong. I believe that the Bible requires long and careful study, and that a naive reading in English could leave me with outright false beliefs. I believe that, as Paul taught, "we see through a glass, darkly"; I do not believe that any living human knows God fully, and I do not believe that certainty and arrogance are becoming.

As I pointed out in my thread about our founder... I believe that Christ called us to welcome the lost, the unwelcome, the weary, the outcasts. My personal ministry is to outcasts.

I believe that if, whenever there were outcasts, there were Christians standing with them in solidarity, there would be fewer outcasts and more Christians.

So... If a friend of mine screws up morally, I don't condemn him. I try to be the person he can talk to safely, without being attacked. I might, depending on timing, talk to him about reasons to avoid acting that way... But I mostly try to get him to a state where he's gonna be ready to listen when God wants to talk to him about that.

Convicting people of their sins is God's job. I can't fill those shoes. What I can do is comfort people, and try to remind them that they are loved anyway.

[Plan 9]

I don't consider myself a particularly "liberal" Christian, but am considered so by many CF members, and not in a good way, as they have made that abundantly clear.
I'm sorry to say that I don't qualify to post here.

I hope everyone who feels they do has a fruitful and enjoyable experience here, though.

Live long and prosper! :)
~Planny

[chalice_thunder]

The reasons I am a liberal Christian include all of the things Karl and seebs said. AND mostly because there is a place for EVERYBODY at the table. In my church, even conservative literalists are welcomed in hospitality with open hearts and arms. (Not too many in our midst, but there are some! And I am glad for their presence)

I am so grateful to God that we have such a church.

[PaladinValer]

Why I consider myself a moderate (progressive) Christian:

1. I do not necessarily take the Bible 100% literally, but I do take everything the Bible says seriously.
2. When I read the Bible, I always take into context the linguistics, history, anthropology, theological situation, and more as well as meditating on the Scripture and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me. I don't believe that a "blind" literalist reading is best, but I don't believe that purely acedemic understanding is going to be enough either.
3. I do not let new discoveries made by science, archaeology, etc, effect my faith in the Scriptures. This is because...
4. ...I believe that the Bible is useful and authoritative in all matters of faith, doctrine, and salvation. I do not use it as a scientific or historical handbook, nor do I ignore what valid historical events take place within its sacred pages.
5. I read the Bible under a Christian and a Jewish context. A Jewish context is important mainly because the OT and many of the books of the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha are Jewish. The OT (Tanakh) is primarily Jewish, not Christian. As such, I believe I have a richer understanding of it than those who choose to only look at it through a Christian's perspective.
6. I place my primary emphasis on the Gospels and Acts first, then the Epistles and Revelation, and then the OT and Deuterocanon. I realize that I, as a Christian, am free from the ritual purity laws of the Torah as well as other things as well. They are important as a historical and theological context for the Christian Message, but I am no longer required to follow them.
7. I believe that the early history of Christian is vital to learn. As the Bible was not canonized until hundreds of years after Pentecost, the Church is of prime importance and therefore its trials and times must be studied from Pentecost through the Ecumenical Councils as this was when orthodoxy was established. During those times, it and not the Bible was the source of all authority, and as such, had orthodox interpretations of what the Bible passages meant because it canonized the Scriptures.
8. I make myself well aware of all heresies and all creeds; Apostle's, Nicean, and St. Athanasius'. This is because, again, during those times, it and not the Bible was the source of all authority, and as such, had orthodox interpretations of what the Bible passages meant.
9. I do not let my religious beliefs necessarily sway my political beliefs, nor do I believe I should thrust them upon those. I witness to those who seek, but try to be Christ-like at all times which expresses my faith; the best witness I got.
10. I do not simply "stop" when I think I know it all. I realize Christianity is not supposed to be easy. I reject the idea of "saved and sealed;" one heart-felt Sinner's Prayer nor one's proclaimation of faith to the Lord is, IMO, not enough to make one truly saved. It is a long process of acknowledgement, practice, penance, reconciliation, and learning that never ends. I do not make my faith wishy-washy nor do I simply say "Lord Lord" outside or inside church every 5 seconds; I believe it is fluffy worship. I choose to take my religion/relationship with Jesus very seriously; He is not just a "buddy," but a parent as well, the latter much, much more than the former.

[CaDan]

I don't consider myself a particularly "liberal" Christian, but am considered so by many CF members, and not in a good way, as they have made that abundantly clear.
I'm sorry to say that I don't qualify to post here.


Why not? We ain't got a bunch of stinking rules here. Hear the sh'ma and love your neighbor, that's it.

If you are considered so by many CF members, and not in a good waythen you are already in exile. Welcome aboard!

Liberal Churches: We take in strays. :)

[Firefly]

Because it's not only become abundantly
clear in life, but also during my short stay here, that I simply have nowhere
else to go.

[Polycarp1]

I don't consider myself a particularly "liberal" Christian, but am considered so by many CF members, and not in a good way, as they have made that abundantly clear.
I'm sorry to say that I don't qualify to post here.

I hope everyone who feels they do has a fruitful and enjoyable experience here, though.

Live long and prosper! :)
~Planny
Lady, your compassion above all, and your willingness to talk sense and apply scholarship to discussions, make you the patron saint of "Liberal Christianity" on this board. If anybody (other than Seebs) belongs here, it's you!

[Aduro Amnis]

Me and seebs pretty much share the same stance on why I personally am a liberal Christian, though I must ask what is a 'progressive', I've never heard of such a term used as anything other than implying small steps towards a goal.

[seebs]

Me and seebs pretty much share the same stance on why I personally am a liberal Christian, though I must ask what is a 'progressive', I've never heard of such a term used as anything other than implying small steps towards a goal.

Many people believe that Christianity is still growing and improving; honestly, I tend to believe this too. I believe that abandoning slavery was a step towards what God wants us to be, for instance. I suspect there are many more steps.

[CaDan]

A homily by a real live Catholic priest on the issue of "progress"

http://www.stjoan.com/homilies4/george2.8.04.htm

[Cordelia]

My Christianity is a search for the truth, and after actually looking around at God's creation, my conclusions so far have naturally aligned themselves with all things 'liberal'. Plus as Karl said, because "the Bible says" most certainly is the beginning of debate and not the end. Sorry for paraphrasing :P

[Treasure the Questions]

Mostly I consider myself simply to be a Christian, whose views are on the liberal side of evangelical and sometimes they would not be acceptable to the Evangelical Alliance of Great Britain, although I think that some individual evangelicals in Britain can be fairly liberal these days.:cool:

I'm not bothered what denomination anyone belongs to. As long as they believe Jesus is the Son of God and one or two other basics, then it's not for me to argue they are not a Christian. For myself I believe we are called to show God's love to all in practical ways, to love justice and walk humbly with our God and that sort of thing, not that I manage to live up to it. :(

Karin

[Toney]

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."

Albert Einstein wrote that.

Hegel taught that God is pure reason and that by reasoning we approach the mind of God.

God has spoken (to us) and we have a response-ability. Dogmatic religions have doused our ability to respond by flooding us with too much "truth." I cannot handle exclusive notions of truth so I am a Liberal Christian.

As Joseph Campbell noted, our clergy preaches on the ethics of good and evil whilst ignoring the connotations of our spiritual metaphors, like the Trinity. The Trinity is not God, it is our feeble attempt to understand how God works in the world.

[chalice_thunder]

Why not? We ain't got a bunch of stinking rules here. Hear the sh'ma and love your neighbor, that's it.

If you are then you are already in exile. Welcome aboard!

Liberal Churches: We take in strays. :)

AMEN to that, bro!! :clap:

[Polycarp1]

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."

Albert Einstein wrote that.

Hegel taught that God is pure reason and that by reasoning we approach the mind of God.

God has spoken (to us) and we have a response-ability. Dogmatic religions have doused our ability to respond by flooding us with too much "truth." I cannot handle exclusive notions of truth so I am a Liberal Christian.

As Joseph Campbell noted, our clergy preaches on the ethics of good and evil whilst ignoring the connotations of our spiritual metaphors, like the Trinity. The Trinity is not God, it is our feeble attempt to understand how God works in the world.
Well, yeah.

Some years ago, J.B. Phillips wrote a book whose point was entirely in its title: Your God Is Too Small. And it went into careful exploration of the various conceptions that people have of God -- Almighty Emperor of All, "Santa Claus," Spirit Guide, and the rest, and showed how God is greater than any conception that we can have of Him.

While I know what you meant by "...ignoring the connotations of our spiritual metaphors, like the Trinity. The Trinity is not God, it is our feeble attempt to understand how God works in the world," better would be to say that the Holy Trinity is the best approximation we have at the moment to God as we are privileged to know Him -- and the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not God. Jacob, Moses, David, Elijah, Isaiah, and Micah did not believe in the dogma of the Holy Trinity -- but they believed in the God Whom we conceive of as the Holy Trinity. Cool with that?

[seebs]

I have that book; it's even on my stack of theology books to read Real Soon Now.

[CaDan]

I have that book; it's even on my stack of theology books to read Real Soon Now.

New insight:

Heaven is the place where we have enought time to read everything in the Real Soon Now pile!

[Toney]

New insight:

Heaven is the place where we have enought time to read everything in the Real Soon Now pile!

In Heaven we can watch the videos. I have a lot of questions about what happened in Jerusalem.

...better would be to say that the Holy Trinity is the best approximation we have at the moment to God as we are privileged to know Him -- and the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not God.

I reason that God is ineffable, but that his activity in the world is observable; that He is the master of human history. I view the Trinity as the locus of His intervention into the natural order and a rational avenue of approach to (understanding) the Godhead. Frankly, I prefer Jewish kabbalah.

But to call God 'three persons' reverts to the pagan tritheism that was translated into the present trinitarian formula. It's worth a thread -- a new trinitarian heresy certainly won't hurt and may help.

[fragmentsofdreams]

"God must have given us an infallible source of doctrine."

I am liberal because I don't make this assumption.

[Bulldog]

It seems as though it is tough to define exactly what a "liberal christian" is.

I suppose I am liberal in the sense that I am far from a Biblical literalist. (non-literal Gen. 1-3, flood etc.) It has become clear to me that maby times Biblical authors our expressing Biblical symbology or theological truths instead of a literal undersanding of the words they say.

[redheadmt]

I consider myself a liberal Christian because I am NOT anti-homosexual, I am a Democrat, pro-choice, I don't make sweeping statements about any particular groups of people, and I am against the belief that some people aren't worthy of the love of Christ. I also would NEVER presume to know if another person is going to hell or not. I also accept that other people who are not the same faith as me are also good people.

Jesus didn't turn people away like some "good Christians" that I know. By the way, that phrase makes me gag.:sick:

[elanor]

I am not liberal in the sense of having "unorthodox" views about God. I think the Nicene Creed expresses my understanding of God pretty well. I think there are two things that make me fit under the liberal Christian mantle.

First is my approach to scripture. To describe the Bible as "inerrant" or insist on a literal interpretation seems too simplistic to me. I think a better approach is to find out what the scripture says, what is the context, how would the words have been understood by the original hearers (because that gives me insight into what the speaker would have intended), how does it fit within the culture of the time, and how does it fit within an overall understanding of how God has revealed Himself to us.

Second is the call that I feel on my life. I spent many years in churches where we were taught that our mission was evangelism and discipleship. I wholeheartedly agree that both of those are essential to the mission of the church. But when Jesus gave us the Great Commission, He said to make disciples and teach them to "observe all that I have commanded you." And I remember that part of His command to love my neighbor as myself. And, as best as I can understand it, that includes the poor, the hungry, the prisoner, the sick, the oppressed, and those who are excluded and disenfranchised (as the Samaritans and women were in Jesus' time). To me, loving my neighbor as myself doesn't just mean witnessing to them. It also means helping them if they are in need. And sometimes, it forces me to work for justice where justice has been denied. Some people deride that as a social gospel. But I KNOW God has woven that passion into me. For me to be involved in justice issues IS part of my obedience to God. I've always understood evangelism, discipleship, and works of compassion and justice to be woven together into a fuller description of the work of the church. But I've learned that not everyone thinks that, and some think issues of compassion and justice are merely political. I don't. For me, these are an integral part of how I obey Jesus. But this lands me in the liberal camp, and I'm just fine with that because here I find kindred hearts.

[Treasure the Questions]

People here may find this defintion of a Liberal Christian interesting http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2961/liberal.htm

How many of you agree with this definition? Perhaps you can't go along with all of it or would like to add something? :confused: I'm sure it would be interesting to hear what you have to say.

You might enjoy the rest of the site, too.

Karin

[Toney]

Thank you, Karin. I agree with the statements of definition 100%. I also think the author's placement of 1 Cor 13:11 on "childish things" is poignant.

The observation on panentheism is particularly relevant. I am a panentheist, but not a pantheist. Panentheists believe in both the immanence and the transcendence of God. If we ever allowed the Trinity to teach us anything about God (through contemplation), it would certainly teach us this. God is, by definition, totally transcendent and unknowable. Given attributes, either by societies or by Church Councils, He becomes to us immanent and knowable.

Fortunately on this forum we will infrequently encounter the more childish, stunted notions of our faith.

Thank you again for posting the link!

[nyj]

I consider myself a liberal Christian because... I am a Democrat...
Does politics have to play into religion?

Didn't Jesus say "Give unto Ceasar what is Caesar's, give unto God what is God's." ?

[chalice_thunder]

People here may find this defintion of a Liberal Christian interesting http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2961/liberal.htm

How many of you agree with this definition? Perhaps you can't go along with all of it or would like to add something? :confused: I'm sure it would be interesting to hear what you have to say.

You might enjoy the rest of the site, too.

Karin

Hey Karin,
First off - thanks so much for the excellent link; here come the reps!

Secondly, I think it describes much of the way I feel, but I have been unable to put such eloquent wording to it.

I think I will enjoy spending some time at the site.

By the way - I LOVE your screen name!
Joy to you,
Dent

[Polycarp1]

Does politics have to play into religion?

Didn't Jesus say "Give unto Ceasar what is Caesar's, give unto God what is God's." ?Greetings, nyj! An excellent point, and the comment you made, more or less in response to me, up in the Official Forums some time ago, regarding the duty of all Christians towards their fellow man, would be wonderful to repeat here. I got convicted by it, and I know at least one fundamentalist did too.

That said, I'd offer this viewpoint. As a glittering generality, religious Liberals tend to be very concerned on issues of social justice and our responsibility towards the poor, the underprivileged, and the outcasts of society. (That is in no way intended to put down good Christians of moderate or conservative bent who are equally concerned, just to state a generalization regarding Liberals.) They are in general less concerned about the social enforcement of moral behavior, though they may themselves feel that individual personal morality is to be held to a high standard.

If you will note the "moral values" of the two major American parties dispassionately, you will note that the Republicans' values tend to be focused on that "social enforcement" mechanism, while the Democrats' values tend to match the concerns expressed in the first long sentence of the previous paragraph. So there is a reasonably strong correlation between religious liberalism and support for the Democratic Party -- but, I hasten to add, not an equating of them. And your own Catholicism-based standards, as I've seen them expressed in OBOB, N&CE, and a few other spots, don't closely match those of either party IMO, though the Republicans come closer.

[elanor]

Does politics have to play into religion?

Didn't Jesus say "Give unto Ceasar what is Caesar's, give unto God what is God's." ?It's a good question, nyj. I know people do have different thoughts about being a liberal Christian. I know for me, one aspect--one extremely important aspect--is the lens through which I view the world. I mentioned above that I feel a strong call to issues of compassion and justice. Some people call it a social gospel, and seem to think it is somehow a weak substitute for evangelism. For me, the two go hand in hand. If my brother is hungry, it feels hollow to me to speak to him of God's love and forgiveness if I do not do what Jesus has called me to do and share my bread, too.

It works out on a bigger scale, too. I've been in a discussion over in International Politics about the US embargo against Cuba. Our denomination, the United Methodist Church, is growing in Cuba. The people are spiritually hungry, and there is freedom enough there to witness, to teach, and to worship. But the people are struggling because food is rationed and there aren't enough supplies available for those who don't have US dollars to spend. I have come to believe, and my denomination has taken a stance, that the US embargo contributes to the suffering of the Cuban people. So for me, the same principle that applies on an individual level applies here--my brother is hungry and I must do what I can to help end that: I feel compelled to work for an end to that embargo. I'm not there to directly share my bread, but I MUST do what I can where I am. Some call that political. To me, it's my faith in and love for God in action.

The fact that many (not all) of us who are liberal Christians are also more liberal politically is, I think, because the political left tends to align itself with the stance on issues that best fit the goals we seek. It's certainly not a perfect match. And we are Christians first and foremost. But we are often political creatures because we feel compelled to try to change the systems that create injustice and suffering.

I do not speak for all liberal Christians, and that is just one aspect of what it is to be an LC. For me, though, it's one of the most important. Hope that makes some sense.

[mrshoward]

Okay, I'm new here. I am a fundamentalist when it comes to Scripture and most things regarding my faith, but I'm a knee-jerk liberal when it comes to social isses. I don't fit in anywhere!

[seebs]

Okay, I'm new here. I am a fundamentalist when it comes to Scripture and most things regarding my faith, but I'm a knee-jerk liberal when it comes to social isses. I don't fit in anywhere!

You do now.

[Rising Tree]

You do now.aww... :)

[nyj]

Greetings, nyj! An excellent point, and the comment you made, more or less in response to me, up in the Official Forums some time ago, regarding the duty of all Christians towards their fellow man, would be wonderful to repeat here. I got convicted by it, and I know at least one fundamentalist did too.
I'm honored that something I said convicted someone... anyone! For the life of me however, I can't find what I said. :D

[BigToe]

Um because I am told by others on this site that I am. I didn't know that such a thing existed before, but I wear the title with honor. Welcoming people and loving them regardless is something Christ taught and I wish to emulate.

[Im_A]

i think i would be lumped into the category of liberal christian because i question things. social issues, i am both liberal and conservative, political party that i support is neither, middle of the road person. if there is a good democrat, i'll vote for that person, a good republican, i'll vote for that person. i tend to like government policies of the democrat party over republican. but within the faith, i believe i would lumped into the liberal category because i question things of the established church. sometimes i feel like one of the old catholic saints, who is torn between my conscience, and the established church of the time, and please do not take that as me being prideful, which is why i respect Martin Luther out of all the reformers, he went with his conscience(i am not luthern).

interesting quote i heard in one of the forums on here(meaning CF). fundies quote the epistles, and liberals quote the gospel, interesting eh?

one thing i think to that classifyes certain Christians liberal because some Christians see the historical aspects of the Word of God, and with knowing that, can see why some things were said that may not have been meant for today. i mean there are a bunch of things of course that go for today, but history shows a lot of reasons why things were changed and so on so forth. maybe a liberal Christians is also noticed because maybe they look different than most Christians. maybe they listen to non-Christian music as long as Christian music because they love all kinds of music and expression. who knows, but i know for my case, i believe it is because i question things, for only one purpose, to know the God we serve more and more.

[elanor]

Welcome, tattedsaint! :)

[MoodyBlue]

I am a "liberal" Christian because I am accepting of all people, regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation, or whatever label anyone cares to pin on our fellow humans. There is room at God's table for everyone. I believe the Bible means different things to different people, and that's just fine. Some choose a literal reading, I don't. Nothing disappoints me more than the intolerance demonstrated at times by fellow Christians. The older I get, the more sure I am that nobody has a monopoly on the truth. "All you need is love" - indeed! Peace to all! :)

[Toney]

MoodyBlue,

Welcome to LC. You should join the revolution of the Ones.

God bless you.

[Reader Nilus]

I consider myself liberal in the sense that I believe that as a Christian we must use our voice to speak for those who are powerless in our society. We must be one with the poor and oppressed, and not sit ourselves with those in power no matter what their creed is. We are aliens and strangers, just as the poor and oppressed are.
Jeff the Finn

[Photini]

That said, I'd offer this viewpoint. As a glittering generality, religious Liberals tend to be very concerned on issues of social justice and our responsibility towards the poor, the underprivileged, and the outcasts of society. (That is in no way intended to put down good Christians of moderate or conservative bent who are equally concerned, just to state a generalization regarding Liberals.) They are in general less concerned about the social enforcement of moral behavior, though they may themselves feel that individual personal morality is to be held to a high standard.


I like what you said here Poly. And going by that, I could be considered a liberal. I, however, avoid politics like the plague. I've never voted.

[Buttermilk]

People here may find this defintion of a Liberal Christian interesting http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2961/liberal.htm

How many of you agree with this definition? Perhaps you can't go along with all of it or would like to add something? :confused: I'm sure it would be interesting to hear what you have to say.

You might enjoy the rest of the site, too.

Karin
I can certainly subscribe to some of the points raised :)

[artybloke]

I'm a liberal because my Dad (reprobate Commie that he was) always taught me to question the recieved authorities. Of course, he didn't much care for me questioning the recieved authorities of Communism, but heck, it was his fault that I'm now a paid up member of the awkward squad.

[Treasure the Questions]

That's very philosophical arty.:) You know my dad sounds like yours in some respects, although definitely not a communist. He taught me that everything/everyone should be questioned...except him.:scratch:

I think maybe the OP was asking what it is about your beliefs or the way your lifestyle as a Christian makes you a liberal. But you probably know that anyway and were just larking around.

K

[loveofbaby]

I consider myself a liberal Christian because I am NOT anti-homosexual, I am a Democrat, pro-choice, I don't make sweeping statements about any particular groups of people, and I am against the belief that some people aren't worthy of the love of Christ. I also would NEVER presume to know if another person is going to hell or not. I also accept that other people who are not the same faith as me are also good people.

Jesus didn't turn people away like some "good Christians" that I know. By the way, that phrase makes me gag.:sick:
I agree with that. except you DO "make sweeping statements about any particular groups of people"
I think we all do, but I know you do in particular.
I do not presume to know who is or is not going to hell. That is for God to decide. The term "good christian" sometimes gets on my ever loving last nerve, too. We are all sinners. None of us is worthy.

[redheadmt1]

redheadmt.. i think you are horrible evil mean person who hates anyone who doesn't agree with you and you have made that abundantly clear

[jimsmom]

i agree

[Arnold_Philips]

Liberal Christian because I have not come to believe and have the same values as other have. And that's okay.

[praying]

Many people believe that Christianity is still growing and improving; honestly, I tend to believe this too. I believe that abandoning slavery was a step towards what God wants us to be, for instance. I suspect there are many more steps.

Why do people find this hard to swallow. I cannot imagine that God wants our understanding of Him and what He wants for us to stagnate and remain the same.

[Treasure the Questions]

Why do people find this hard to swallow. I cannot imagine that God wants our understanding of Him and what He wants for us to stagnate and remain the same.
I quite agree. :thumbsup:

Karin

[Kaonashi]

The website that Treasure mentioned pretty much described me. I have also begun to think of God and the Holy Spirit as the same being instead of seperate

[sakamuyo]

On the TWMNBN (great acronym!), I actually tend to believe much the same as the more conservative evangelical churches. However, my attitude toward those issues is very different. First, membership in the family of God is based solely on one's relationship with Christ, not on the rightness or wrongness of one's theology. Even if I disagree with you completely, I still call you my brother. Second, I think the emphasis on TWMNBN is one of Satan's greatest tricks. He's got us so busy fighting amongst each other, we've lost the mission and passion of the church. For the most part, time spent arguing over TWMNBN is time wasted.

We all know John 3:16, but how many know John 3:17? "God sent his Son to save the world, not to condemn it." I don't think that means all are saved and that none of this religious stuff matters. However, I do think it means our role as the church should be to dispense grace, not condemnation. It's not our place to decide who is or isn't going to hell. It's not our place to attack those who don't follow God. It's our place to love God and love our neighbor.

Apparently, that makes me a liberal.

[Treasure the Questions]

On the TWMNBN (great acronym!),
Perhaps, but what does it mean?

Karin

[sakamuyo]

Go back and read the first or second post in this thread. :)

[Treasure the Questions]

Thanks, third post (by seebs). Perhaps you should have explained it the first time you used it, as a courtesy to other readers. :)

K

[sakamuyo]

Sorry. I assumed others would have read the earlier posts in the thread. My bad.

[Treasure the Questions]

Sorry. I assumed others would have read the earlier posts in the thread.
I did, but it was a few days ago now.

[Toney]

Thanks, third post (by seebs). Perhaps you should have explained it the first time you used it, as a courtesy to other readers. :)

K

Agreed. Another habit we all seem to lapse into from time to time is posting only Biblical chapter and verse rather than posting the text itself.

Cyber-acronyms confound me. I thought LOL was 'lots of love' until I misused it once. I think it is safe to say that few of us re-read threads everytime time we post.

[artybloke]

That's very philosophical arty.:) You know my dad sounds like yours in some respects, although definitely not a communist. He taught me that everything/everyone should be questioned...except him.:scratch:

I think maybe the OP was asking what it is about your beliefs or the way your lifestyle as a Christian makes you a liberal. But you probably know that anyway and were just larking around.

K

A bit. But on the other hand, that early training has given me a weather eye and a deep suspicion od ideology. Fundamentalist is basically an ideology because it puts an idea above people, in this case a particular interpretation of scripture. I saw what ideology did to people when I watched The World At War as a kid (for those who haven't seen it, groundbreaking TV history of the Second World War, with Lawrence Olivier as commentator) and also reading the story of theologian Jurgen Moltmann's conversion in a British prisoner-of-war camp, after seeing the early films of the Holocaust.

I'm also a writer, of course, so I know just how treacherous words are; any faith that's based on singular interpretations of ancient texts seems dodgy to me.

[Treasure the Questions]

You were also blessed with a fairly shrewd mind,arty.:cool: I've never seen The World At War but I doubt I would have learnt the same lessons from it as a kid as you did.

I've no doubt you're a liberal, of course, and I'm thankful for what you've learnt because you have taught me a lot, even if you occasionally seem a bit too liberal for the evangelical that still lurks somewhere in me. ;)

I like the new addition to your sig, btw.:cool:

Karin

[Bingley]

I suppose I am, but I'm not sure I want to be.

One of the many things that's bothering me at the moment is the human tendency to classify people -- the assumption that 'you know, that lot over there, are all the same'. Thus the broad generalisations about what fundies, TWMNBN (those who may not be named), Muslims, lefties, whoever, believe and do which break down on actual contact with more than one or two examples. On the other hand it's very difficult to think without making such generalisations.

Do we need another group where we have to decide who's in and who's out? Where we define ourselves against that other lot?

[seebs]

Indeed, one of the underlying quirks of the liberal forum is that pretty much anyone who isn't here to pick fights is welcome to chat.

[McCravey]

God led me in this direction.....that is the only reason I now wear this label (for the time being....who knows?) Glad to finally find you guys.....battled through a lot of fundies to get here.

By the way;

Lets be careful not to become "fundy" liberalists.....lol

ps. is anyone working on a "creed" for us? (by the way I like listening to Creed)

[GreenPartyVoter]

I could be a liberal anything. By that I mean that I think I could find God through any number of faith traditions as I believe they all are viable.

I consider myself a Christian though because a) it is the faith I was raised in, b) I married into a conservative Christian family and annoucing that I would rather be a Buddhist or something else would cause considerable trouble, c) I like the personal relationship with God aspect that Christianity as I understand it offers, and d) I do believe Christ is the Son of God was born, died, and rose again. And I believe that His life and death served the purpose of teaching me that I am loved beyond all comprehension, and how to attune my life to God, His love and His Grace.

That said, I will add that I too do not take the Bible literally. Which of course means that I disagree with more orthodox expressions of the faith where the unname-able sins are concerned in this forum.

So I don't think there is any doubt that I am a liberal/progressive Christian and that Jesus loves me. ;)

[GreenPartyVoter]

I also believe in universal salvation, though I suspect there might actually be something to the idea of Purgatory first.

[Toney]

Now that our Forum has been around for several weeks, I have noticed a style that is probably a liberal attribute. The liberal's response to a benign assertion made by a fundamentalist or conservative member is both polite and unpredictable.

Conversely, the response by a fundie or conservative is often impolite, always cites proof text, and is tiresomely predictable. It is like a carcinogen that sits in self-appointed judgement of unworthy, yet healthy and humble little cells. It invades like a pernicious beast and strikes at the body. The liberal's antigen-presenting cells are those acquired by a commitment to cognitive dissonance and also may be found in ice cream.

[apenman]

I am a liberal! "Mercy triumphs over judgment" for all people (James 2:12-13).

[sculpturegirl]

I think that both terms "conservative"' and "liberal" have such terrible connotations by the other camp. I grew up in a very "conservative" environment, where we referred to the other camp as "those dirty liberals." Now I am questioning the meanings of the words in general. I question everything and don't trust authority, yet I am very orthodox in my theology and understanding of God. It is a goal of mine to never put a lid on God, however. One thing that I love about Lutheran theology is that it is comfortable with paradoxes as well as unanswered(-able) questions. I go to a liberal church, but sometimes think that I am the most orthodox there. I do love how accepting and loving my congregation is!

I read an article reprinted from National Review (isn't that a conservative paper?) published in the Utne Reader (that one is liberal- wait a minute!) about a phenomenon called 'Crunchy Conservative." I really identified with the writer of this article. If my local, organic produce buying makes me liberal or if my orthodoxy makes me conservative then am I a "conservatible?" I am just me, I guess :P

When I read some of your posts I was so touched by so many of your commitments to the "unlovable," reaching out to the needy, the poor, the dispised. Isn't that a Christian issue and not a liberal or conservative? It seems like that was one of the things Christ was up to. I am deeply saddened about the state of Christianity today.

I am glad that you all welcome all people.

[McCravey]

, and therefore old ways to talk about God can become misleading as our frame of reference changes, and we must find new ways.


Reminds me of an old quote..."I do not follow in the footsteps of the men of old...I seek the things they sought"

[nyj]

Now that our Forum has been around for several weeks, I have noticed a style that is probably a liberal attribute. The liberal's response to a benign assertion made by a fundamentalist or conservative member is both polite and unpredictable.

Conversely, the response by a fundie or conservative is often impolite, always cites proof text, and is tiresomely predictable. It is like a carcinogen that sits in self-appointed judgement of unworthy, yet healthy and humble little cells. It invades like a pernicious beast and strikes at the body. The liberal's antigen-presenting cells are those acquired by a commitment to cognitive dissonance and also may be found in ice cream.
Toney,

I suggest we do not villify our brothers and sisters on the other side of the spectrum. It actually runs counter to your comments made in the first paragraph. Calling conservatives a cancer, while trying to claim the higher ground is quite the contrast.

Personally, I hate the words "conservative" and "liberal". I think neither one has any place in the Christian faith. Back around 150 AD, a bishop, on his way to martyrdom, called the Christian faith "universal". That means that both conservatives and liberals may seek His face.

[Toney]

Toney,
I suggest we do not villify our brothers and sisters on the other side of the spectrum. It actually runs counter to your comments made in the first paragraph. Calling conservatives a cancer, while trying to claim the higher ground is quite the contrast.


And your point is well taken, although I did not call conservatives a cancer. I wrote that their (against CF rule) reponses in liberal and other fora are often like a cancer. Big difference.

Allow me to replace that concept with an example.

Also, the law of Moses is "still around" but it is for the goats...

Now I am pretty sure that the poster did not really intend to call an entire race of people goats. Why, to do so would echo the sentiment that has reverberated in Christian history to a cacophony of pograms and persecutions that culminated with the Holocaust.

You're fond of quoting early Church fathers, nyj. (I do not mean to pick on you any more than you intended to pick on me. You are a superb Mod. I believe you posted to this thread as a member of LC, one for whom I have great respect, so I choose not to ignore your post.) To develop my point in this (too-long) post, here are a couple of short quotes from early Church fathers:

From (Saint) John Chrysostom, the Patriarch of Constantinople, this:

"Jews are the most worthless of men - they are lecherous, greedy, rapacious - they are perfidious murderers of Christians, they worship the devil, their religion is a sickness ... The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing god there is no expiation, no indulgence, no pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance. The Jews must live in servitude forever. It is incumbent on all Christians to hate the Jews."

From Gregory of Nyssa, one of the Cappadocian Fathers, also a great Saint, we get more of the same:

"Slayers of the lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of god, haters of god, men who show contempt for the law, foes of grace, enemies of the father's faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of righteousness."


My goodness, both these truly gifted men also contributed greatly to the Deposit of Faith. I mean this sincerely; my Trinitarian theological formation is highly indebted to the Cappadocians. St John Chrysostom is known as one of the great Greek Fathers and a Doctor of the Church.

From the polemics of the 2nd Century, when fledgling Christianity was coming into its own, to the virulent anti-semitism following Nicea of which the above are but two examples, to the 200-year expulsion of the Jews beginning in England (1290), France, Hungary, Germany, Austria, Lithuania, Spain and concluding in Portugal (1497), to the notorios lies of 'Blood Libel' in the Middle Ages, right up to the Holocaust of our own time, the Christian problem with Jews has been this: Why are these people still around?

To date, Replacement Theology (http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/teaching/Article-18.html) has provided the best answer to that question, and finally many in the Church, including a distinguished Cardinal, admit even to that grievous error.*

So I ask you all, is anti-Semitism, a decidedly anti-liberal intolerance, cancerous and if so, then why do we indulge it?


*A Sacred Obligation: Re-thinking Christian Faith in Relation to Judaism and the Jewish People (http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/partners/CSG/Sacred_Obligation.htm)

[apenman]

Then we will simply agree to disagree.

[Toney]

We will agree to disagree regarding Replacement Theology, for such disagreement is legitimate and understandable in light of 1,800 years of church teaching.

Regarding anti-Semitism, whether blatant or couched as anti-Judaism, the problem with regard to this debate anyway has been addressed therefore your offer simply to disagree (which I reject) is now moot.

Some of your ideas, Alex, are interesting and I look forward to learning more about them. I mean this genuinely.

[sakamuyo]

It's possible to believe in replacement theology without having a hatred toward any people groups. Really, if you believe in replacement theology, I would think it would lead you to love your ethnically jewish brother, that he might see Christ in you and be restored.

[Toney]

Kevin,

May the peace of the Risen Lord be with you.

I can see where one might read my post and conclude that I believe in Replacement Theology. I do not.

I am not sure what you mean by "ethnically Jewish brother," nor do I want to assume I know what you mean by be restored.

[sakamuyo]

I'm not stating any position, to be clear. I'm saying that those who do (I didn't intend to direct that at you, just at those who hold the position), should still treat all people with love. There is no such thing as a theological position that gives an excuse for anti-semitism or hatred against any other group.

[Mimi]

Because I am a Christian......and a socialist :P........vewy left winged.......

[thexman]

"Convicting people of their sins is God's job"

This is one of the main reasons I had changed from being a conservative to a liberal Christian. I had sat through too many sermons in which the preacher or the pastor think they are God. Now I sympathize with people who are suffering in life. Because not only are they suffering from realities of life, but they are also being harshly judged and criticized by Christian leaders who are supposedly the very people victims should turn to for shelter. They get double whammied. It is easy to say and be self-righteous when you have the church's backing and the world's mainstream views behind you, but when one is in the ditch, it is the true Christians that offer the real solace. To put things in perspective, my own views and life-style have changed in just within the past 10 years. Yet people don't realize that the bible scripture is nearly 2000 years old. This is why I have also made the switch from being a Republican to being a Democrat in the past 5 years.

[CaDan]

"Convicting people of their sins is God's job"

This is one of the main reasons I had changed from being a conservative to a liberal Christian. I had sat through too many sermons in which the preacher or the pastor think they are God. Now I sympathize with people who are suffering in life. Because not only are they suffering from realities of life, but they are also being harshly judged and criticized by Christian leaders who are supposedly the very people victims should turn to for shelter. They get double whammied. It is easy to say and be self-righteous when you have the church's backing and the world's mainstream views behind you, but when one is in the ditch, it is the true Christians that offer the real solace. To put things in perspective, my own views and life-style have changed in just within the past 10 years. Yet people don't realize that the bible scripture is nearly 2000 years old. This is why I have also made the switch from being a Republican to being a Democrat in the past 5 years.


Welcome aboard! We have fresh bread today!

current music: Bruce Cockburn - Tokyo (I'm ripping old vinyl to mp3 this weekend - lots of old favorites will be heard!)

[Rising Tree]

just curious.Because

1. I came onto CF seeking answers that I had realized that I did not have, and

2. Almost every time I got into a heavy discussion, my views shifted to the left a little. That's right, folks, CF is the primary reason I'm a liberal now.

It's funny...the other day, I took an inventory of my core beliefs, and virtually every one of them except for a few were liberal in nature. It wasn't that happened in one swing of the bat; I just started changing, and after awhile, I realized, lo and behold, I'm a liberal. :o

:)

[chalice_thunder]

Because

1. I came onto CF seeking answers that I had realized that I did not have, and

2. Almost every time I got into a heavy discussion, my views shifted to the left a little. That's right, folks, CF is the primary reason I'm a liberal now.

It's funny...the other day, I took an inventory of my core beliefs, and virtually every one of them except for a few were liberal in nature. It wasn't that happened in one swing of the bat; I just started changing, and after awhile, I realized, lo and behold, I'm a liberal. :o

:)

This is what we call "being born again!" :wave: :thumbsup:

[Rising Tree]

Well, I'm still a work in progress. I'm nearing completion, I think, but I still have a little ways to go.

[CaDan]

It's funny...the other day, I took an inventory of my core beliefs, and virtually every one of them except for a few were liberal in nature. It wasn't that happened in one swing of the bat; I just started changing, and after awhile, I realized, lo and behold, I'm a liberal. :o

:)

Yeah, when all those line drives kept landing in left field it was probably a good clue! :D

[James Sez]

It's been a long time since I have lurked here at CF. Like Rising Tree, it has made me more liberal.

When I first came here I was involved in an conservative-evangelical church and my views learned toward conservative. I was only liberal in that I had a heart for the poor. I know some conservatives work with the less-fortunate (good!) but...they tend to be the poor person's worst enemy.

I found that as I got involved in discussions (on anything) I was constantly aligning myself with a more liberal viewpoint, meaning more open-minded about asking questions that good conservatives fight against.

I also got disgusted with the way in which a sizable number of conservatives argue their views. It seems that many (not all!) take pride in being disagreeable at best and hateful at worst. I began to wonder if a conservative viewpoint creates certain personality traits-traits that I was not comfortable emulating. Or mabe it's the other way around...or both. They seemed to follow the thinking of the phrase by E Hubble "If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names."

I began to get depressed as saw some of my liberal and/or "free-thinking" friends get banned for asking "bad" questions.

The more I interacted on CF the more depressed I became because I felt that conservatives were arguing from personal psychology rather a love for God.
For these and other reasons, I stopping trying to be conservative and quit my church. When someone at church told me I was asking questions "like a liberal", I knew it was time to jump ship.

I'll say this much, taking a liberal stance on issues is difficult. It requires so much more then cookie-cutter theology. I don't like it a whole lot. As a conservative I was not required to actually love people in practice but just to give lip-service to that concept. I could tell my foes, "I love you in the Lord" when they made me mad and I could do that just to upset them. As a conservative, I was not required to ask questions about or try to look at both sides of an issue.

The historian Richard Hofstater said that conservatives have "a single minded commitment to to one idea, hostility toward liberal inquiry." (They will) "tolerate ambigities, no equivocations, no reservations and no criticism" -From "Anti-intellectualism in American Life"

BTW, When I speak of conservatives, I don't mean to speak of every individual that takes that name. I think of the conservative reponse to the world as a tendancy or a habit of mind. In this way there is no differance between the Catholic or Protestant. If you criticize thier theology, they both get paranoid and whine that you are anti-catholic or anti-protestant and they "know" the truth.

Anyway, CF has changed my life a lot and not for the better. I would rather follow the pope, Calvin or the latest theological hotshot. I do not enjoy inquiry-I would rather have cut-and-dry answers to all of my theological questions.

Thanks for reading this. I'm just venting and trying to figure out what my time at CF did for me. I AM a liberal now!

[seebs]

You must always distinguish between "conservative positions" and "conservative methodology".

[artybloke]

You must always distinguish between "conservative positions" and "conservative methodology".

Is this in reference to theology or what the conservative folks gets up to in bed?

Anyone for the missionary position?

Sorry, couldn't resist.... :)

[Rising Tree]

Boy, James Sez' post reflects my situation with alarming accuracy....

[CurlyCrown]

Basically because I don't believe in the inerrency and infallibility of the Bible, and because I don't want to be considered a Fundamentalist.

[James Sez]

Boy, James Sez' post reflects my situation with alarming accuracy....

I'm not sure if this thread is concluded. I did not want to derail it but I have a last comment. It's nice to have a place to say things where CFers can't tell you your a fool and a bad (or no) Christian.

1) One of the things that make me look at my own tendencacy toward "liberal" thought was that Rising Tree was on a personality profile kick a few months ago. I began to wonder if there was a tendancy for certain profiles to lean toward more open or closed belief systems. I loved the tests and found that my profile looked like it would be conducive to a liberal kind of thinking. For example, I'm not fixated on one way of completing a task, I'm not given to strict mode of thinking, often I don't like holding other people to the rules I live by, I don't like to spend my life judging others, etc.

"Liberals" and "conservatives" come in all types of personalities. I suppose you can't look at these test and tell a liberal from a conservative, but you might be able to tell who would make a quality liberal thinker.

All of this made me wonder if there are some non-religious reasons that people adopt certain views.

2) I was just on a "Christian" Psychology site that said "How could anyone who follows Christ suggest that we can learn about the mind from an atheist like Freud or secular thinkers!" I think most conservatives would say "Preach it brother". I have seen this a lot on CF. Since my personality doesn't do well with closed categories and narrow thinking, I found that guys statement to be counter-productive.

3) I have found that many conservatives don't enjoy having to throw stones at sinners. They don't want to tell Godless liberals like me that God wants to spit them out of his mouth- it does not fit well with their personalities. They do it because the Bible demands it of them. I had one guy tell me that he felt guilty because he didn't respond strongly enough to sinners. He was a nice guy-liked by sinners and saints alike-but a poor conservative Christian.

4) Like all people, I do "judge" others at times-we all do. I'm glad that I don't have to make it a lifestyle because of my liberal reading of the Bible does not mandate it.

[CaDan]

1) One of the things that make me look at my own tendencacy toward "liberal" thought was that Rising Tree was on a personality profile kick a few months ago. I began to wonder if there was a tendancy for certain profiles to lean toward more open or closed belief systems. I loved the tests and found that my profile looked like it would be conducive to a liberal kind of thinking. For example, I'm not fixated on one way of completing a task, I'm not given to strict mode of thinking, often I don't like holding other people to the rules I live by, I don't like to spend my life judging others, etc.


Perhaps the distinguishing feature of "liberal" Christianity is that it is not commandments-based. In my mind, it is based on that scary concept of "situational ethics"--the application of the general statements ("Love your neighbor as yourself", etc.) in new and evolving situations.

I think that change from a commandments-based relition to a principles-based faith is the purpose of the critique of the Law in Matthew 5 & 6.

[Kaonashi]

bump

[LovebirdsFlying]

OK. If it's bumped and renewed, I'll take a shot.

I consider myself a liberal Christian because:

For one thing, I don't believe homosexuals are automatically going to hell.
I don't believe it's wrong to question what the Bible says, or seek to prove it to yourself. In fact, I think that's exactly what the Lord would have us do. He wants followers, not robots.
I don't believe everything has to be red, white, and blue American in order to be called good, normal, or proper.
I don't have a concept of God as some vengeful being watching for people to make the slightest mistake, then hit them with a lightning bolt.
I believe everyone is equal before God. Men are not above women, whites are not above minorites, rich are not above poor.
I believe in the rights of the individual to decide for him/herself by what moral and ethical code he/she will live.I could go on.... but I think I've hit the highlights.

[Im_A]

Me?

Because "The Bible says..." is the beginning of debate, not its end.
Because all language used about God is imprecise, metaphorical and provisional, and therefore old ways to talk about God can become misleading as our frame of reference changes, and we must find new ways.
Because conscience cannot be taken prisoner by literalism
Because inerrancy and infallibility are not useful concepts, because even if the Bible texts were one or the other, none of our interpretations are.
Because God is a rational, reasoning and creative being, and made us in His image.

Just some reasons.

if there is any reason to think of me as a Christian, this right here is why i take the stances that i do. great post karl!