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View Full Version : Acts 5: Gamaliel and a tough question


insaneinthebrain
11th August 2004, 11:50 AM
I was reading an article in First Fruits of Zion's Messiah magazine, and it got me thinking about the following from the book of Acts, chapter 5:

26 Then the captain went along with the officers and proceeded to bring them back without violence (for they were afraid of the people, that they might be stoned). 27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, 28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." 33 But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. 35 And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. 36 "For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 "After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. 38 "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God." 40 They took his advice; and after calling the apostles in, they flogged them and ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and then released them. 41 So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name. 42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.Most seem to think that Gamaliel's words are somewhat prophetic in regards to the "Jesus Movement" being of God, but the fact of the matter is that the Nazarene sect of Judaism, of which Paul was called a "ringleader," died out right around the fourth century. Keeping that in mind, I'm curious to here everyone's take on Gamaliel's words.

muffler dragon
11th August 2004, 12:27 PM
I was reading an article in First Fruits of Zion's Messiah magazine, and it got me thinking about the following from the book of Acts, chapter 5:

Most seem to think that Gamaliel's words are somewhat prophetic in regards to the "Jesus Movement" being of God, but the fact of the matter is that the Nazarene sect of Judaism, of which Paul was called a "ringleader," died out right around the fourth century. Keeping that in mind, I'm curious to here everyone's take on Gamaliel's words.
Considering this potential "die-out" that you speak of was politically motivated, I still think that Gamaliel's words were more just a matter of fact. All of the "messiahs" that had come and gone were either false or real. That's what it comes down to.

m.d.

visionary
11th August 2004, 02:41 PM
The word of Paul would have long been forgotten in some dingy place, there would be no schools studying his words, and there would not be any congregations gathered to hear the word that were written week after week, if it was not of God.

Each generation has gathered precious truths for their time, from not only the Old Testament but also the new. Together they are what has brought about what we find today. People are studying these words as if they were the Word of God and rightly so, for what started back with Yeshua and the apostles is still going on today. It has right a position in the world where it is not unheard of, it is not something to contend with, it is the subject of much discussion within the religious circles.

Paul's opinion of Gamaliel was high in recommendation, believed the man was zealous toward God, there for it is my opinion that Gamaliel was prophectic in his statement.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

simchat_torah
12th August 2004, 09:20 AM
but the fact of the matter is that the Nazarene sect of Judaism, of which Paul was called a "ringleader," died out right around the fourth century.
Actually, the Nazerene's, as a Jewish sect, existed at least into the 13th Century and possibly longer (we simply don't know as the records seemingly dissapear).

However, I still see what you're saying though.

In my opinion, as far as what Gamiliel stated, I think it was intended for his present time and not a prophetic statement... but that's just my opionion.

-yafet

simchat_torah
12th August 2004, 02:44 PM
I intend to live forever --- so far, so good.

insaneinthebrain
12th August 2004, 03:26 PM
In my opinion, as far as what Gamiliel stated, I think it was intended for his present time and not a prophetic statement... but that's just my opionion.

-yafet
Well, the fact still remains that the Nazarenes did fade away. I don't know, this little passage has been bugging me for quite a while. The only way I can reconcile this with the modern Messianic movement is if it's something like 2 Kings 22, where the Torah was "found" again. Maybe we're slowly re-finding the proper Messianic faith?

ShirChadash
12th August 2004, 03:30 PM
There have been believing Jews all throughout the centuries since Yeshua's death. Many times these individuals and families existed within normative Judiasm itself, simply believing Yeshua as Messiah.

insaneinthebrain
12th August 2004, 03:32 PM
There have been believing Jews all throughout the centuries since Yeshua's death. Many times these individuals and families existed within normative Judiasm itself, simply believing Yeshua as Messiah.
I realize that, but the movement as a whole seems to have faded away at some point.

sojeru
12th August 2004, 09:36 PM
actually, the nazareans/nazarenes have given all of their traditions to the sefardics of spain.
I am not sure exactly of all sefardics- but RaMBaM seems to connect the arab sefardics and spanish-portugese sefardics into one load...
But yes, the nazareans have given their totality within these traditions- even though the knowledge of Messiah Yeshuah seems to be very small- the Messianist movement traditions' seems be rampant in this culture which is primarily focused on "the court/kingdom of heaven"

simchat_torah
13th August 2004, 09:20 AM
I intend to live forever --- so far, so good.
my plan is still working.... muwhahahaha

Netzari5730
13th August 2004, 11:09 PM
I realize that, but the movement as a whole seems to have faded away at some point.
38 "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."

He wasn't talking about the sect of the Nazarene, He was talking about the work that they were doing. This work that they did spread across Asia, through India into China. In India there remains the church that was planted their by Timothy or Phillip or was it Thomas(I think), and still teaches the same tradition and doctrine it received from Him. Are they not a part of that sect of the Nazarene, having been taught by them, and still in existence today? Or are we merely talking about Jewish believers in Yeshua? There have always been Jewish believers in Yeshua from one generation to the next. Thadman should know about the Aramaic traditions of the "Church", that the keepers of the Peshitta were heirs of the direct Apostalic line, thus being directly descended from the "sect". In other words, no matter how any one wants to twist things around, This "sect" has always been around, just not under the same name.

In Yeshua...
Netzari5730

visionary
14th August 2004, 10:03 AM
Was there not a tribe found in the deeper part of Africa, in the 1940's that keep the sabbath and many of the biblical truths for centuries?

Netzari5730
14th August 2004, 04:54 PM
Was there not a tribe found in the deeper part of Africa, in the 1940's that keep the sabbath and many of the biblical truths for centuries?
From what I have read in some news magazine, yes. This group of Jews was trying to tell Israel that they were descendants of the Kohanim/Priests. So they did a DNA test on them and compared it with the DNA of those who were legitimately descendants of Levi, and they had all the same DNA markers indicating descent from the Kohanim.

In Yeshua...
Netzari5730