Please refute this.

[SaintGeorge]

Read Ephesians 2:14-17. Doesn't it say the law is abolished?

[The Thadman]

Read Ephesians 2:14-17. Doesn't it say the law is abolished?

Many of people here would be more than glad to refute you.

I, for one, would love to refute you...

... IF either of us were allowed to debate in this neck of the forums :)

The Messianic Judaism forums have a special subset of rules in the post Current Messianic Judaism Forum Rules (http://www.christianforums.com/t725276).

Please read them: especially rule #5. :)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[entropy_rising]

Is it okay for you to refute Esran if he doesn't try to refute your response?

I've had this problem before where I've asked a question in other denomination's forums just for information's sake, with no intention of an argument, but was thought to be baiting.

Just for clarifiation's sake. I'm curious how it would be refuted to and have no intention to argue - just to listen.

Thanks.

[Henaynei]

MOD HAT ON


http://www.nehemiah-center.org/Henny.jpg

Shalom,

Unfortunately most faith forums, including ours, have found that such questions are usually baiting andf intended to cause dissention and disruption in their forums.

I am willing to assume, at this point, that is not your intention.

Therefore, yes, this question CAN be answered by Messianics in this forum if:

1) the questionier knows that he is not allowed rebuttal, even in the form of a question, and
2) those answering him are Messianics, that is, legitimate wearers of the MJ icon.



This is clearly laid out in our Forum rules (http://www.christianforums.com/t725276), specifically in the following rules: 3) Non-Messianic Posts: Non-Messianic members (eg. Protestant, Catholic, Non-Messianic Jewish members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Messianic Judaism doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Messianic members. Any debate or apologetic posts, as well as efforts to answer questions about Messianic Judaism by Non-Messianic members will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum (or other appropiate forum) and warnings will be issued. In other words, only Messianic members can debate, answer questions about Messianic Judaism or engage in apologetics here. a) Messianic: A religious/faith group, of Jews and non-Jews, that believes and follows the Mosaic covenant given by G-d to all the Jews and also believes in Yeshua of Natzeret as the Jewish Messiah, G-d (HaShem) and deliver of all peoples. 5) Baiting: If you are visiting the Messianic Forum and you are not Messianic, you may ask questions, but you may not bait. Asking a sincere question is welcome. Setting up a question or giving a response that you know will cause dissention and controversy will not be tolerated. It is a violation of the rules to mention in any thread that you have made, or may possibly make, a Report.

6) Moderation Protocol: Feel free to report posts that you believe have broken these rules to the moderators of this forum by clicking on the "Report" link at the bottom of each post. When you are in disagreement with another member it is best to take a breather before taking matters into your own hands. In fact, if there is a verbal battle starting to take place, cease immediately and contact a MJ Forum moderator. Moderators are here to keep the peace and maintain the integrity of the forum. By replying in anger, making cutting comments or taking matters into your own hands we are creating a fractured environment that would not appeal to those looking in from the outside. Report any issues to Messianic Forum staff.

7) Accountability: If you have posted and violated the rules without actually reading these rules first, you will still be held fully accountable. As long as the answer and discussion fall within these rules all will be well ;) If not, the thread will be moderated.

MOD HAT OFF
http://www.nehemiah-center.org/Henny.jpg

[CharlesYTK]

Read Ephesians 2:14-17. Doesn't it say the law is abolished?
I hope that I am not writing this to a person who will not even return to read the thread.

The middle wall of partition between us;which is refered to, was a doctrine, formed by a misapplication of Torah, which was used to exclude Gentiles from the people of faith. It make Judaism exclusive to Jews only or Gentiles who went through the conversion process and became in every way Jews. This is what was torn down. The physical wall in the temple was still standing at the time of this writing.
Through faith in Yeshua, all men have part in the family of faith, even without conversion and circumcision, which were required by Jewish tradition. (This was verified by God when he poured out the spirit on repentent Gentiles the same as he had on repentent Jews. He made of the two people, Jews and Gentles, one redeemed family by faith, binging near those who had been far off, the Gentiles. This is important, he brought the Gentiles into the fold of Israel. He did not desolve Israel or the Torah to make Jews into Gentiles.

You would like to show that the Torah (commandments) were set aside but they weren't. What was set aside was the traditions of men, based upon an incorrect understanding of Torah, that were used to divide men and separate them from God.

I John 5:[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

You might also take a look at Rev 12:17. Here John sees in his vision the true believers at the time of the Lords return. They are being persecuted by the Antichrist beast. And they are identified in this way, "They keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of (faith in ) Jesus the christ. They do both.

Charles

[visionary]

Charles spoke well and it is directly from scripture, it is what Paul is dealing with in the Ephesian and other churches regarding circumcision and the traditional thinking of exclusive, inclusiveness that surround God's chosen.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity[/B], even the law of commandments contained in ordinances[B]; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The law of commandments contained in the ordinances.....this is the part that people mess up with, they want to know what is abolished in the flesh (the enmity)?????Have you ever noticed that when Paul went into a town to preach, that the story of Messiah is welcomed. Paul is asked to stay on and preach on following Sabbaths. The Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah is great news embraced by all the Jews. But when he gets down to the part where Gentiles are now part of Israel without circumcision, without the rabbinical conversion process, but instead just based on their faith, the Gentiles then swarm to the synaogues and then, only then, is Paul in trouble and thrown out of town or thown in prison. It happens over and over again doesn't it? It is not the news of the death and resurection of Yeshua or his being the Messiah or the son of God that is a problem. It is when they are told that Gentiles are also now a part of Israel through faith.

Why the divisions? Because in 1st century Judaism these are two distinct types of people found in the synagogue. Brothers are fellow Jews, Sons of Abraham, is a term that was given to Gentiles who had undergone the conversion process to Judaism inluding circumcision, and the God fearers were Gentiles who were adhering to the Jewish ways and walking in Torah but who had not undergone the rabbinical conversion process and circumcision.


In this story of Acts 13 all of these groups are very happy to embrace the message and Paul is invited back for the following Shabbath. But, when the next Sabbath comes and the place is overun with Gentiles, the Jews become "Jealous" and quickly stir up all the people in the town to have them expelled. What are they jealous about? 1st century Judaism was not particularly evangelical desiring huge numbers to fill the pews. No, to the contrary, Judaism of the 1st century was sort of a private club to exclusive members, which required difficult conversion rituals and circumcision and separation from all your former relationships in order to gain full membership. What concerned these Jews was that their private and closed synagogue was busted wide open and filled to the brim with spiritually excited Gentiles who had heard the Good news that was coming through the words of Paul. The Jews were jealous for the ruining of their exclusivity.

Now in the incident you menioned act 21 yes the people are shooting at Paul, but not for the Gospel as such but because of Rumors concerning Pauls opening the doors for Gentiles into the community of Believers without conversion first. And this much is true. However he didn't bing Gentles into the inner courts of the temple. That was an assumption, based on a mistaken identity. But in Act 22 look what happens when Paul stands to defend himself in the matter. All the crowd who wanted to kill him quiet down and listen without a sound listening to everything about the story of who Yeshua is and the Gospel message, until, ...until ... Paul brings in the fact that the Gentiles are to be included. Then the entire mob tries again to have him killed. Let's read it



‘Lord, they know themselves that in every synagogue I used to imprison and flog those who trusted in you; 20 also that when the blood of your witness Stephen was being shed, I was standing there too, in full agreement; I was even looking after the clothes of the ones who were killing him!’ 21But he said, ‘Get going! For I am going to send you far away—to the Goyim!’ "

22 They had been listening to him up to this point; but now they shouted at the top of their lungs, "Rid the earth of such a man! He’s not fit to live!" 23 They were screaming, waving their clothes and throwing dust into the air; 24 so the commander ordered him brought into the barracks and directed that he be interrogated and whipped, in order to find out why they were yelling at him like this.

Again it is the inclusion of the Gentiles in general, not just the single event at the temple that has the Jews trying to kill Paul.

One can not read Ephesians without clearly seeing that this Gentile ingrafting was at the heart of Pauls ministry. And the second level to this is that these are not Goyim, in the sense that one here at cf teaches saying that these were just dispursed northern tribe Jews and not really Gentiles in the Pagan sense. Hogwash! The Jews would not be so offended if a lost fellow Israelite returned to the Faith. These were Gentile Ethnos, Pagans who were coming to faith. And the Jews were not happy with this unexpected influx of Pagans into their exclusive religion. "They were the chosen not the Gentiles." they said.They had forgotten their mission to reveal God to all the nations and that Messiah himself would be a light to all the nations.

[SaintGeorge]

Thank you for your explanation of that verse. Your logic is once again flawless, just like that of my Messianic Jewish friend. I didn't think that the law was abolished.

[CharlesYTK]

Visionary,

Thanks for bringing this post back. I didn't think anyone was listening!! I met with a great deal of opposition from one or two of the "Pillars" and so I gave up.

Blessings to you

Charles

[G4m]

I hope that I am not writing this to a person who will not even return to read the thread.

The middle wall of partition between us;which is refered to, was a doctrine, formed by a misapplication of Torah, which was used to exclude Gentiles from the people of faith. It make Judaism exclusive to Jews only or Gentiles who went through the conversion process and became in every way Jews. This is what was torn down. The physical wall in the temple was still standing at the time of this writing.
Through faith in Yeshua, all men have part in the family of faith, even without conversion and circumcision, which were required by Jewish tradition. (This was verified by God when he poured out the spirit on repentent Gentiles the same as he had on repentent Jews. He made of the two people, Jews and Gentles, one redeemed family by faith, binging near those who had been far off, the Gentiles. This is important, he brought the Gentiles into the fold of Israel. He did not desolve Israel or the Torah to make Jews into Gentiles.

You would like to show that the Torah (commandments) were set aside but they weren't. What was set aside was the traditions of men, based upon an incorrect understanding of Torah, that were used to divide men and separate them from God.

I John 5:[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

You might also take a look at Rev 12:17. Here John sees in his vision the true believers at the time of the Lords return. They are being persecuted by the Antichrist beast. And they are identified in this way, "They keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of (faith in ) Jesus the christ. They do both.

Charles
Very interesting! Further:

1 Corinthians 7
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

[CharlesYTK]

Very interesting! Further:

1 Corinthians 7
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
.
Yes! I have had opponents to this message read this verse in such a way as to make keeping the law a passe' thing, a trivial matter not really with being concerned about, like:Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, its all just bunch keeping of the commandments of God, which he doen't care about any more because Jesus fufilled the law for us.

These were men who present themselves a scholars to the public and are respected as such. Here is the correct tone and meaning.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; what matters is keeping of the commandments of God regardless if you are Jew or Gentile.

I know you understand this, in this way. But I labor the fact for others who might read this thread.

Blessings to you.

Charles

[G4m]

Yes! I have had opponents to this message read this verse in such a way as to make keeping the law a passe' thing, a trivial matter not really with being concerned about, like:Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, its all just bunch keeping of the commandments of God, which he doen't care about any more because Jesus fufilled the law for us.

These were men who present themselves a scholars to the public and are respected as such. Here is the correct tone and meaning.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; what matters is keeping of the commandments of God regardless if you are Jew or Gentile.

I know you understand this, in this way. But I labor the fact for others who might read this thread.

Blessings to you.

Charles
Hi Charles :) ,

what about these verses:

Acts 15
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

To me, this always implied the idea that the gentiles could learn about the law gradually from the teaching in the synagogues (with the intention of them keeping it). What is your view here?

[CharlesYTK]

Hi Charles :) ,

what about these verses:

Acts 15
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

To me, this always implied the idea that the gentiles could learn about the law gradually from the teaching in the synagogues (with the intention of them keeping it). What is your view here?
I agree.

The things they must first do, are open proof of having repented from, (turned away from) taking part in Pagan rituals. These 4 restrictions are all associated with common Pagan temple activities. They needed to make this investment in order to have acceptance in the synagogue where they needed to be in order to receive the mature teachings of the Jews concerning a righteous (law obedeint) life style. The synagogue was also the only place to find the scriptures which they would need to study. They would be having Table fellowship with both Jewish believers and Jewish non-believers. Certainly the restrictions are an entry point requirement and not an end point objective. They are instructed to seek out the synagogues in their own locations to study and receive instruction in Torah.

This is really a far cry different from what the Jews had practiced before concerning Gentiles; who were required extensive training, much time and circumcision, (which is really the main concern here) which meant conversion ie. to become a Jew. What had been practiced was the Rabbinical Conversion processes. Now by the new covenant, with the proof of Gods acceptance by his filling even the Gentiles with the spirit just as he had previously done to the Jewish believers, Paul, James, Peter and all the council agree that Gentiles are no longer required to go through the laborous ritual of Rabbinical conversion before becoming part of the family of faithful followers. They are to be granted full acceptance as part of the synagogue. Of course this message was not well received by all the local synagogues when suddenly their synagogues were filled to the brim with anxious and spirit filled Gentiles who wanted to learn everything they could. The exclusive Jews only, atmosphere of the synagogue was disrupted and it all seemed a threat to the surival of Jewish identity in the regions they had ben scattered. It posed a possibility of further assimilation. This sparked the Jewish resistance to the Gospel that Paul was preaching and motivated the Jews to eliminate Paul and to suppress this message of Gentile inclusion.

Charles